Combos again

[dark brandon]

Other than flavor, there is no real benifit to a character standing around using a normal human punch when he could stand around and do pheonix punches. I am hoping to remedy this.

Combo system:
"He can kill you 5 times before you even hit the ground"~~cool saying I heard in some movie.

basically, during a combo a fighter utilizes his 1 action (or rather generally 5 seconds or so) to do a flurry of hits. More bang for the buck.

Penalties: There are a few problems when a character decides to do a combo.

1) A character does not get to use his/her strenght bonus until the final hit. Most moves (even stronger ones) are hit with minor force, just enough to get the move out.

2) certain moves cannot be used in a combo (there are exceptions). Death blow, tackle, grapple, joint locks, sweeps, double damage only on a natural 20 (even if he gets a critical on an 18, 19, 20...ect), jump kicks, and no auto ko's on a 20 (as applied to boxing).

3) A combo can only be done once per melee, but it only costs the character 1 attack.

Benifits: You do add 1/2 your PP bonus in striking (assuming you have any). Also you get a non-accumulative benifit if you use certain moves.

Combo starter: is a quick jolt move and the damage is usually 1d4 for arms and 1d6 for legs. A special manuver may be used to start a combo (Such as the phoenix punch) but does not get strenght bonus and it cannot be done again in a combo.

arm/hands: if max damage is 4 = +2 strike and is a combo starter.
" ": if max damage is 6 = +1 strike
" ": if max damage is higher than 6 = no strike bonuses

Legs/kicks: If max damage is 6 = +1
" ": if max damage is higher than 6 no bonus to strike

The final strike of the combo does get the benifit of PS bonus or if the comboist wishes, may end it in a jab/elbow which does 1d4+ps but also, the victom is -1 strike for his next attack (concidered a final jult attack and causes the victom to stumble ever so slightly)

Combo Lenght: At first level, a character starts off with a 2 hit combo. Every other level he may add one attack to the combo. So 1st/2nd he can hit 2 time. At 3rd/4th he can hit 3 times. at 5th/6th he may hit 4 times. So on and so forth.

Characters with HtH basic can only have a max of 3 hit combo.

Characters with HtH Expert/commando can only have a max of 4.

Characters with HtH Assassin can only have 4. But they are also one of the few styles that when they learn death blow, can incorperate it into a combo. (only evil alignment styles may do this, and only after reaching level 10 and must know Death blow).

Characters who have boxing who can roll a roll of a natural 20 (even if uncalled) will result in a knock out. Must be using a 'boxing' style. Basically during the combo, if they do any kick it is not concidered a 'boxing' combo, also, if they use any special attack (such as tiger claw) does not count. But if they keep it to regular punches

Characters with wrestling can end a combo in a grapple.

Characters with Athletics can end a combo in a tackle.

Victoms: A victom of a combo has one real good chance to stop a combo before it starts. It requires a parry or dodge at the begining of a combo. If parried or dodge the combo is ended. If they fail after the first hit, then they are at a -3 to parry and dodge without PP bonus (or any bonuses). If they happen to parry while being "comboed" it does not stop the combo, only the damage from that attack. Only a dodge will end a combo in motion. During the beating, the victom cannot do any special manuver or parry simply regular parry or dodge.

Another way that a combo can end prematurely is if 1) the comboist rolls a 1-4 (miss). also, if the person he's comboing is wearing armor and he fails to penetrate the AR during the combo.

at 8th level a character is concidered close enough to a master that they may add in tackles/grapples/sweeps (if their style allows it) to a finishing combo move.

Air Juggle: can only be attempted by a style that has a sweep attack and of 8th level. Basically, the character sweeps his opponent, then before the person can fall on the ground, the character hits him one time on his way down. This is at a -2 strike after the sweep, but the falling character takes damage plus the penalties to being sweeped. at 11th and 15th (master levels) a character can hit a falling person 1 more time each.

Note: a sweep can also be part of an ending combo, and doesn't have to be part of the start. In this case it gets no bonuses to strike.

Air Bash: can only be attempted by a style that has sweep and only at 10th level. A sweep followed by a jump kick. this combo uses up all attacks per melee but it is at a -2 to hit and does double damage to a jump kick plus penalties from a sweep. At 15th level, the master may do a sweep, plus another move finishing it off with a jump kick. The attack after the sweep does double damage and the jump kick does triple damage.

Lee Kwan choo special: when a person with this style does a combo, his knuckle and snap kick do no damage, but the stun is accumulative.

[Mantisking]

Off the top of my head, the easiest way to do combos would be Special Kata. I'll have to look at my books when I get home to come up with some guidelines.

[Nekira Sudacne]

too complicated for too little gain.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Heretic888.
What exactly are you trying to replicate here??

He's trying to duplicte combos from video fighting games. A chain of attacks that staggers an opponent and drains a chunk off their life-meter.

Originally posted by Nekira Sudacne.
Too complicated for too little gain.

I agree with you.

[sinestus]

....

sounds overly complicated...

this was why i composed Card-Fu back in the days... where players would draw a hand of cards from their marital arts deck to see what maneuvers they could get the positioning to use that melee...
but even that was bothersome...

really... the one thing keeping them from using the same attack over and over shouldn't be rules-wise...
as useful as that can be...

but flavor wise...
no one throws the same attack over and over...
if they do, it's easy for the enemy to see it coming... and thus counter...
not to mention, it's hard to always get the right positioning to throw the same attack over and over...

[dark brandon]

I will of course, defend my proposal.

Complicated: It LOOKS complicated, but really isn't.

Joe and bob are two martial artists (Any martial arts except Basic/commando/assassin)

joe wins initiative. He attacks. He's 3rd level so he can do a 3 hit combo one time per melee.

example 1:

Joe: I want to hit him with my fist (1d4)
bob: I parry.
joe (rolls to strike beats out bob's parry, at this point he can call a combo).
Joe: "I turn this into a combo" (rolls damage 1d4 but no damage bonus is added). I continue on with a knife hand (roll to strike, 5 or higher hits as normal: 1d6) and finish with a Tiger claw (roll to strike: 1d10+PS)

Could bob have parried the additional attacks? Yes, but he does so at a -3 with no PP bonus. And each parry attempt costs an attack. Why? because he already used up his auto parry and that doesn't stop the combo. If he dodged when joe was doing knife hand, then the combo would be over (no additional hits). One last thing, Joe could have ended the combo in a normal punch (1d4 +stre) which would give bob a -1 to strike the next time bob tries to hit him.

Why would joe use a "lesser" move during a combo. because they give bonuses to strike, which is important because you can only use 1/2 your PP bonus (if you have any) and if bob decides to parry, then you have to beat out his parry (even though he's at -3) or even worse if he's wearing armor (like has an AR of 10).

Fighting game: they were the insperation, but not the REASON for why I created this system. The reason is that after playing a few games of N&SS, no one was using the 'lesser' moves. Every attack consisted of Tiger claw or crane punch or whatever. It's boring and repeditive, so I wanted to give a reward to someone who decides to use a "lesser" move. Still the combo can end in a power strike, but it does so without benifit of strike bonus which if someone is wearing armor, is important.

really... the one thing keeping them from using the same attack over and over shouldn't be rules-wise...
as useful as that can be...

but flavor wise...
no one throws the same attack over and over...
if they do, it's easy for the enemy to see it coming... and thus counter...
not to mention, it's hard to always get the right positioning to throw the same attack over and over...

True, but when it comes down to it, if your in an important fight, and your character has a chance to fall, then your not gonna go for the jab or snap kick. Your gonna go for your most effective moves. You save the fancy/flavor stuff for your basic brawl against 2 thugs.

a GM can give bonus or penalties for doing the same move over and over, but then that can be called unfair. Yes, I know, GM final word, but a fair GM will at least give his players fair warning before hand that he is going to penalize them for repeditive moves.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I will of course, defend my proposal.

Complicated: It LOOKS complicated, but really isn't.

Joe and bob are two martial artists (Any martial arts except Basic/commando/assassin)

joe wins initiative. He attacks. He's 3rd level so he can do a 3 hit combo one time per melee.

example 1:

Joe: I want to hit him with my fist (1d4)
bob: I parry.
joe (rolls to strike beats out bob's parry, at this point he can call a combo).
Joe: "I turn this into a combo" (rolls damage 1d4 but no damage bonus is added). I continue on with a knife hand (roll to strike, 5 or higher hits as normal: 1d6) and finish with a Tiger claw (roll to strike: 1d10+PS)

Could bob have parried the additional attacks? Yes, but he does so at a -3 with no PP bonus. And each parry attempt costs an attack. Why? because he already used up his auto parry and that doesn't stop the combo. If he dodged when joe was doing knife hand, then the combo would be over (no additional hits). One last thing, Joe could have ended the combo in a normal punch (1d4 +stre) which would give bob a -1 to strike the next time bob tries to hit him.

Why would joe use a "lesser" move during a combo. because they give bonuses to strike, which is important because you can only use 1/2 your PP bonus (if you have any) and if bob decides to parry, then you have to beat out his parry (even though he's at -3) or even worse if he's wearing armor (like has an AR of 10).

Fighting game: they were the insperation, but not the REASON for why I created this system. The reason is that after playing a few games of N&SS, no one was using the 'lesser' moves. Every attack consisted of Tiger claw or crane punch or whatever. It's boring and repeditive, so I wanted to give a reward to someone who decides to use a "lesser" move. Still the combo can end in a power strike, but it does so without benifit of strike bonus which if someone is wearing armor, is important.

really... the one thing keeping them from using the same attack over and over shouldn't be rules-wise...
as useful as that can be...

but flavor wise...
no one throws the same attack over and over...
if they do, it's easy for the enemy to see it coming... and thus counter...
not to mention, it's hard to always get the right positioning to throw the same attack over and over...

True, but when it comes down to it, if your in an important fight, and your character has a chance to fall, then your not gonna go for the jab or snap kick. Your gonna go for your most effective moves. You save the fancy/flavor stuff for your basic brawl against 2 thugs.

a GM can give bonus or penalties for doing the same move over and over, but then that can be called unfair. Yes, I know, GM final word, but a fair GM will at least give his players fair warning before hand that he is going to penalize them for repeditive moves.

combos arn't as hard to avoid as all that. yes, tough, but you WOULD get PP bonuses, but not training bonuses.

skill is great, nothing beats natural talent (except natural talent with skill)

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Nekira Sudacne.
Skill is great, nothing beats natural talent (except natural talent with skill).

I think you got that backwards.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by DarkBrandon.
Fighting game: they were the insperation, but not the REASON for why I created this system. The reason is that after playing a few games of N&SS, no one was using the 'lesser' moves. Every attack consisted of Tiger claw or crane punch or whatever. It's boring and repeditive, so I wanted to give a reward to someone who decides to use a "lesser" move.

Here's an easier fix. If your players insist on using the same move repetitively, give the opponent a bonus. I'd say a cumulative +1 to Parry/Dodge/Strike should do it.

Originally posted by DarkBrandon.
a GM can give bonus or penalties for doing the same move over and over, but then that can be called unfair. Yes, I know, GM final word, but a fair GM will at least give his players fair warning before hand that he is going to penalize them for repeditive moves.

Hey, if they're stupid enough to give their opponent a chance to analyze their "fighting style". Also, point them to the source material. Martial arts movies are a big part of this game and people in those movies don't use the same attack constantly.

Originally posted by DarkBrandon.
True, but when it comes down to it, if your in an important fight, and your character has a chance to fall, then your not gonna go for the jab or snap kick. Your gonna go for your most effective moves. You save the fancy/flavor stuff for your basic brawl against 2 thugs.

I think this is one of the minor problems with the N&S system. Snap kicks are great for attacking an opponent's legs. But N&S has no called shot sysytem, which is really needed when dealing with martial arts.

[dark brandon]

Joe and bob are two martial artists (Any martial arts except Basic/commando/assassin)

joe wins initiative. He attacks. He's 3rd level so he can do a 3 hit combo one time per melee.

Assuming Joe and Bob are roughly the same level (3rd level), then that scenario is still rather unlikely. Its completely inane to assume that in the time it takes Joe to dish out 3 attacks in succession, that a martial artist of around the same skill level (Bob) wouldn't be able to respond with at least 1 attack.

Realistically, if Bob parries the first attack of the "combo", what's to stop him from countering with a kick or punch of his own?? Sure, that's not how it works in video games --- but it is how it works in real life. And in N&SS.

Remember, once again, that a melee round is ONLY 15 seconds. If these guys both practice aggressive martial arts (and have, say, 5 attacks per melee each), then we're talking each move lasting, AT MOST, 2 seconds. I've seen speed before --- but not +3 attack combos being done in less than 2 seconds.

Also, your combination system seems to completely ignore Roll with Punch or Breakfall. After you clog me with your first punch, what's to stop me from "going with" the momentum and just rolling backwards??

See, this helps me. So, I would say that one can roll with every attack, taking half damage. Rolls are free so he/she gets to roll with it.

Could bob have parried the additional attacks? Yes, but he does so at a -3 with no PP bonus.

Why would Bob suffer a penalty to Parry AND be unable to rely on his natural agility?? Makes no sense to me. Actually, why would there be any penalty to parry these attacks at all?? There should be penalties to strike with combinations, not penalties to defend against them...

The initial attack is ment to be a jab/quick hit that jars your opponent. So, perhaps if I remedy it to use ONLY a persons PP bonuses instead of skill bonuses in both defence and offence, would that make it better?

And each parry attempt costs an attack. Why? because he already used up his auto parry and that doesn't stop the combo.

*chuckles* Oh, I see. So, you can dish out 3 attacks in a row and it only uses up one of your melee actions..... but for me to defend against those 3 attacks, I have to use up all my melee actions. Riiiiiight.

I can appriciate you find flaws in my system, that's cool, and mentioning them is cool. But no need to be an ass about it. Yes, the idea for a combo is to bypass a persons defences at least parry in quick repetition. You're not hitting with your full force (which is why you don't get to use any damage bonuses except for the final strike). to get the point more across, maybe a person also loses -1 to damage since the strike isn't fully concentrated on.

One last thing, Joe could have ended the combo in a normal punch (1d4 +stre) which would give bob a -1 to strike the next time bob tries to hit him.

Uhhhh.... why??

once again to allow for more combinations. WHy end a combo that does 1d4 when you can end it 1d10. So, to chose to end it in this way, you gain a benifit.

Fighting game: they were the insperation, but not the REASON for why I created this system. The reason is that after playing a few games of N&SS, no one was using the 'lesser' moves. Every attack consisted of Tiger claw or crane punch or whatever. It's boring and repeditive, so I wanted to give a reward to someone who decides to use a "lesser" move.

I have a much better, and more balanced, idea for your complaints: provide partial P.P. bonuses for attacks of different damage ratings.

Let's say 1D4 moves get a full P.P. bonus, 1d6 moves get 3/4 your P.P. bonus, 1d8 or 2d4 moves get 1/2 your P.P. bonus, 3D4 or 2D6 moves get 1/4 your P.P. bonus, and so on. Fractions are rounded up (as with Roll with Punch rules).

Or, an even better idea, simply devise a system of attack penalties for moves of different damage ratings. Y'know: -0 for 1D4, -1 for 1D6, -2 for 1d8, -3 for 2D4, -4 for 2D6, -5 for for 3D6, and so on..... you could maybe double those penalties for Combination Parry/Attack in place of the regular penalties for that move. This could also give players more incentive to use unarmed attacks vis a vis weapons.

Hey, those are just working ideas, mind you, but both are preferable to being able to unleash 5-hit combos at a whim.

I actually posted a system like that with penalties and bonuses. People didn't like that much either. So an attack like the tiger claw very own special move unique to that style is at a penaltie. I know you said these were working ideas, but it's not as easy as one thinks.

nods* Yes. As a house rule, I'd say if a character uses the same attack 3 times within the same melee round (3 strikes and yer out!), then all opponents in combat with him automatically receive the benefits of the Find Weakness Chi Mastery ability --- but only for the duration of that melee round. The "three strikes" rule would start over with each melee round. Sound fair??

No, not really. I have 5 attacks per melee. I use 3 doing 1d10 tiger claws. then I spend my next to doing knife hand or any other attack. You still don't have characters who will do a jab/normal punch, or snap kicks or any other other "low end attack".

Here's an easier fix. If your players insist on using the same move repetitively, give the opponent a bonus. I'd say a cumulative +1 to Parry/Dodge/Strike should do it.

when is it concidered a repetitive move? 2 times per melee? 3 times per melee? how about getting players to WANT to use the punch that does 1d4 damage?

[dark brandon]

Still doesn't matter, now that I think about it. Even with this combo system, a character will still not use jab ect...after a combo.

The quest continues to get players to want to use all the possible attacks available to them...

[Nekira Sudacne]

Still doesn't matter, now that I think about it. Even with this combo system, a character will still not use jab ect...after a combo.

The quest continues to get players to want to use all the possible attacks available to them...

yep.

some players won't need it however.

I always use a varity, for variates sake. I know no one uses only the best moves, and even though in the rules there are no peanalties for it, I vary anyway, for realism's sake.

[dark brandon]

Still doesn't matter, now that I think about it. Even with this combo system, a character will still not use jab ect...after a combo.

The quest continues to get players to want to use all the possible attacks available to them...

yep.

some players won't need it however.

I always use a varity, for variates sake. I know no one uses only the best moves, and even though in the rules there are no peanalties for it, I vary anyway, for realism's sake.

I do too, but in the end, if my character is in a fight that is very important (Or losing a fight), then he will do what is most effective, simply because that too is realistic.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

this is one aspect of the Street Fighter RPG that i like better than Ninjas and Superspies. every maneuver is balanced. you might have a kick that does tons of damage, but it might be so slow that 20 guys get to smack you before you pull it off. there's alot more strategy involved in deciding how to attack your opponent.
maybe what we need is a way to counterbalance the powerful attacks in N&SS with penalties to make them slower?

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by DarkBrandon.
How about getting players to WANT to use the punch that does 1d4 damage?

This one sentence is tempting me to build a martial art using just Punch, Snap Kick and a few other maneuvers.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Gadrin.
These might interest you...
http://www.geocities.com/kuseru/PMAN/Po ... speed.html
http://www.geocities.com/kuseru/PMAN/Po ... i_kung.htm
http://www.geocities.com/kuseru/Kuseru.html

Actually, the item in the second link has been renamed.

Advanced Chi Mastery [Positive Chi]
T’ien Ch’u Chi Kung (Celestial Body Breathing Exercise): An ancient and lost Chi Power that allowed the fabled heroes of old to fight toe-to-toe with the demons and demi-gods of myth. As the character progresses in skill with this Power, the abilities available to them increase.
Level One: Extraordinary P.S. & P.E. (This costs 12 Chi per Melee Round.)
Level Eight: Superhuman P.S. & P.E. (This costs 24 Chi per Melee Round.)
Level Fifteen: Supernatural P.S. & P.E. (This costs 36 Chi per Melee Round.)

[Nekira Sudacne]

Originally posted by DarkBrandon.
How about getting players to WANT to use the punch that does 1d4 damage?

This one sentence is tempting me to build a martial art using just Punch, Snap Kick and a few other maneuvers.

you mean like HtH: basic

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by DarkBrandon.
How about getting players to WANT to use the punch that does 1d4 damage?

Originally posted by me.
This one sentence is tempting me to build a martial art using just Punch, Snap Kick and a few other maneuvers.

Originally posted by Nekira Sudacne.
you mean like HtH: basic

More like a cross between HtH:Basic and Fong Ngan. This would be a hard, fast style that uses four to six techniques total.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Gadrin.
do those numbers translate to Rifts?

Rifts? What is this Rifts you speak of?

Originally posted by Gadrin.
I've been looking for a way to improve Body Chi. Limiting the PS at 30 and wondering how much to pay for Supernatch version.

Improve? It works pretty well as it is now.

Originally posted by Gadrin.
also as a Chi-Magic spell too.

Hmmnn, I haven't done much with Chi Magic.

If we're going to keep talking about this, we should split this off into it's own topic.

[Borast]

If you don't want to only do 1D4 damage...use a different strike. There are D6 and D8 (and other) strikes in N&SS, NOT counting the D10 kick you can learn.

Use the SYSTEM...look at the abilities in the Katas et al. There is one where you are gauranteed a critical, another does the damage direct to HPs, you can stun someone with the right Atemi knowldge. (ie: With one punch in the right place on assorted locations on your bod, I can knock you out with meesly a D4 punch!)

After all, why use a blackjack? It does, what? A D3 damage (at best)? Simple...it knocks people out when used properly.

But, if you still want to make massive attack chains like an idiotic video game, use the Lightning Kata for Kick Boxing...you receive 5 kicks at your opponent in seconds...even though you are then defenseless for the remaining 12 seconds of the melee...

Re: D4 punch...what, no strength bonus? You did remember to add your PS bonus for having a PS in excess of 16, did you not?

[dark brandon]

If you don't want to only do 1D4 damage...use a different strike. There are D6 and D8 (and other) strikes in N&SS, NOT counting the D10 kick you can learn.

Exactly. So why use a d4 punch when you got a d6 punch. why would any martial artist use a weaker punch?

Use the SYSTEM...look at the abilities in the Katas et al. There is one where you are gauranteed a critical, another does the damage direct to HPs, you can stun someone with the right Atemi knowldge. (ie: With one punch in the right place on assorted locations on your bod, I can knock you out with meesly a D4 punch!)

that's great, vs thugs, but you would use a stronger punch when in a fight for your life or important to the game. The idea is to get get players to want to use a d4 punch when something is important.

After all, why use a blackjack? It does, what? A D3 damage (at best)? Simple...it knocks people out when used properly.

But, if you still want to make massive attack chains like an idiotic video game, use the Lightning Kata for Kick Boxing...you receive 5 kicks at your opponent in seconds...even though you are then defenseless for the remaining 12 seconds of the melee...

Perhaps you missed the part where I wrote that even this idea I had still doesn't solve the problem I had originally intended to set out to fix and thusly dropped it. Perhaps if I allowed it to consume a characters entire attack per melee, but still, doesn't quite solve it.

Question: How to get players to want to use the D4 jab punch/weaker attacks?

Re: D4 punch...what, no strength bonus? You did remember to add your PS bonus for having a PS in excess of 16, did you not?

Not everyone has a 16 to ps. Nor did I forget to add the bonus that PP gives. It was based on a character with normal/average stats. 11/10.

[Borast]

Simple...punch used is style dependant.
If the style does not incorporate a knuckle punch or a haymaker or a fore-knuckle strike, you have to use the D4 punch instead of the D6 or D8.

The other option is even simpler...'cause it's good roll playing!

[dark brandon]

Simple...punch used is style dependant.
If the style does not incorporate a knuckle punch or a haymaker or a fore-knuckle strike, you have to use the D4 punch instead of the D6 or D8.

The other option is even simpler...'cause it's good roll playing!

Still doesn't solve the problem. option one only works if they don't offer a secondary type of punch. Tiger claw for example. Why would anyone use jab punch instead of tiger claw. I'm not worried about the styles that only have one punch available.

the second option (as addressed earlier), even if it's good role playing, if your character is in a life/death situation or in a critical point in the game, he/she won't use a lesser punch. It doesn't make any sense to.

Some people may let their 5th/7th/10th level character die in the name of good role playing. Course it's also good role playing to want to keep your character alive.

[Guest]

hmmm...

why use a 1d4 jab instead of a 1d10 tiger claw...

uh, doesnt a Tiger Claw require a bit of room to move and attack?

doesnt a roundhouse need room to swing your foot around and hit someone...

what if you bumped into someone in a narrow alley, would you be busting out tiger claws and roundhouses?

if you tried id tell you that you just did 8+3 damage, to the wall, and took half that damage because you kicked a brick wall with your toes, then the other guy jabbed you in the throat...


what if the guy crowds you so you cant get those power strikes off, you elbow them, or jab them, or snap kick them...


remember combat distance, its even a rule...if you are 12 feet away, you can jump kick at me, or you can move closer...

if you are 12 inches away, you can headbutt me, or jab me, or move away....


btw, harder to hit someone with a 3 foot katana than a 1 foot sai?

the plane traced by a katana on a swing covers ALOT more area than a sai swing, and the best hand to hand attacks dont cover a large area at all, generally being fairly direct to the target....

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Dark Brandon.
So why use a d4 punch when you got a d6 punch. why would any martial artist use a weaker punch?

Because there's no need to? Because you don't want to show your opponents what you're capable of doing? Because you want to insult your opponent by using "weaker" attacks, and still win?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Foreknuckle punches can hurt a bunch if you hit the right spot on a person

Forenuckle strike is already listed as a seperate attack.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Freefall.
Geez, is this thread really a year old? I didn't even notice. Why would someone dredge up a year old thread?

Because I felt like it.

[dark brandon]

Because there's no need to? Because you don't want to show your opponents what you're capable of doing? Because you want to insult your opponent by using "weaker" attacks, and still win?

What does it matter what you're showing your opponent? they get no bonuses or penalties if you use nothing but tiger claws? You don't get any special initiative or strike bonus if you just pull it out?

sure, you want to insult your opponent, what about the badguy who you can't beat with just jabs? The one who you end up using continous punches on since it's a life and death situation.

Remember, the spirit of this thread was to come up with a way to get players to use other attacks other than continuously the most strongest ones.

[dark brandon]

I'm afraid the best bet, then, is either to house-rule that this constitutes weakness of technique and provides the opponent boni independent of the "sense weakness" technique, or to provide more versatile moves. A more versatile moveset, or a greater level of advantage to using such moves, would encourage a player to utilize that larger number of moves; if, however, you're in a fight, you're gonna use your more efficient gun.
Basically, either you gimp the move in a reasonable but house-ruled manner, or you give that move some competition.

Now, it is definitely my opinion that, sometimes, a move is focuses upon for good reason. Again, the flavor text on Tai Chi, for instance, says that a TC master might go through a battle with circular parries and occasionally unleash a Push Open Hand. If it works, don't fix it, eh?

Yes...we have moved past this. I made the initial suggestion...people didn't like it (But most agreed with the problem). So, we've moved on to coming up with actual ideas in how fix the problem. That's fine if you don't think there's a problem. You post "there is no problem" then move on. ANyone who would post here I would hope would have some idea or though on how to fix the basic problem. "Players/enemies using same move over and over again. The feel is no longer "realistic" or "cinimatic" it's become like playing a 32 bit fighting game on my NES"

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Dark Brandon.
What does it matter what you're showing your opponent?

Maybe you don't want your opponent to know what style your using? It's a role-playing thing.

Originally posted by Dark Brandon.
they get no bonuses or penalties if you use nothing but tiger claws? You don't get any special initiative or strike bonus if you just pull it out?

How about this? If your opponent has scouted you, and learned your moves, he gets a free Automatic Dodge because he knows that you're going to use that one attack. The Auto Dodge lasts until you switch attacks.

Originally posted by Dark Brandon.
sure, you want to insult your opponent, what about the badguy who you can't beat with just jabs? The one who you end up using continous punches on since it's a life and death situation.

I'd be throwing everything and the kitchen sink at him.

Originally posted by Dark Brandon.
Remember, the spirit of this thread was to come up with a way to get players to use other attacks other than continuously the most strongest ones.

Here's another one, don't give them the experience points for "good roleplaying". And when they ask why, tell them "You don't role play your fights very well." Maybe they'll get the hint.

[dark brandon]

Maybe you don't want your opponent to know what style your using? It's a role-playing thing.

I'm not aruging about rping.

How about this? If your opponent has scouted you, and learned your moves, he gets a free Automatic Dodge because he knows that you're going to use that one attack. The Auto Dodge lasts until you switch attacks.

Define "scouted". What does that mean in game terms?

I'd be throwing everything and the kitchen sink at him.

In otherwords you'd use what is most effective. And if youre tiger punch does the most damage, is just as likely to hit, you'd use it, over and over again to survive, cause it makes good IC sense.

Here's another one, don't give them the experience points for "good roleplaying". And when they ask why, tell them "You don't role play your fights very well." Maybe they'll get the hint.

GM: Well, i'm taking exp away from you because you only used that one move over and over again. Poor RP

Player: So, it's IC to use a weak move like jab, when my crane punch is just as accurate and even more efficient in a fight that could mean my characters life. But it's OOC to use this because my character wants to survive?

[Sentinel]

GURPS Martial Arts introduced me to something called "Style Recognition". It basically gave you an advantage when fighting an opponent whose style you were familiar with.
I applied to Palladium martial arts, by giving the opponent a cumulative bonus to parry or dodge when the player used the same move over and over. I was subjectively lenient to a player whose fighting style was pretty elementary to begin with, but if a Player chose Tae Kwon Do, I expected him to do more than Power Punch and Roundhouse kick every attack.

When I choose N&SS and Mystic China martial arts, I like to opt for styles with lots of moves: I like the variety.
I'll use every kick Tae Kwon Do offers, as well as all the punches, the Power Block/Parry, and the Multiple Dodge if I can. I love long drawn out fights: I can be more creative, and use more moves the longer the fight goes on.
I use movie fight scenes like Enter the Dragon, Strike of Death, The Shaolin Temple, Once Upon A Time In China, and Best of the Best. Especially the longer scenes (there are also some good ones in Drive, Legend of Drunken Master, Project A, Righting Wrongs, Duel to Death, Musketeer, Iron Monkey, and Legend of Red Dragon).
Once players see how they can apply their moves in a cinematic combat, they often develop their characters' fighting styles better.

[Sentinel]

GURPS Martial Arts introduced me to something called "Style Recognition". It basically gave you an advantage when fighting an opponent whose style you were familiar with.

I always liked the idea of that skill. I also do something similar in games I run. Mostly I just have to threaten to give the opponent bonuses to defend if the attack doesn't change occasionally. Usually the threat is enough and I never have to follow through.

I think part of the problem is role-play and part is system. A martial artist should throw a variety of techniques, that's what they are there for, but if there is no difference between those attacks but damage and no built-in reasoning for not throwing them, how can you (a general you) penalize the player for using the most effective techniques? You can, but the reasoning is weak, IMO.

I think that's why I like the defense bonuses for the target, it isn't a penalty like a loss of xp, but an incentive to mix things up or your opponent will figure you out, which to me is more realistic. I also like the long, drawn out fight, which is what you get with the large SDC values on some characters, but I hate when it turns into the WWF type fight, standing there, trading power punches.

I usually get KO/Stuns, Criticals, and Death Blows to keep some of the fights a little shorter. People start rolling 18, 19, and 20, and it really means something. Especially if one fighter has Shaolin (critical on 19, 20 at level one)., WuShu T'sung (critical on 19, 20 at level 2), Crane Style (gets a critical with one of the special attacks as long as the bonuses add up to 20).

[Sentinel]

I usually get KO/Stuns, Criticals, and Death Blows to keep some of the fights a little shorter. People start rolling 18, 19, and 20, and it really means something. Especially if one fighter has Shaolin (critical on 19, 20 at level one)., WuShu T'sung (critical on 19, 20 at level 2), Crane Style (gets a critical with one of the special attacks as long as the bonuses add up to 20).

I like putting the players up against 3-1 or more odds but making the enemy crappy, weak fighters (mooks, I suppose). Get that huge fight, plenty of time for stylish actions, and plenty of rolls to get those special hits in on both sides.

I fondly remember a dedicated martial artist attempting to "stop" a guy from running away by doing a leap attack at his back. Hit the guy at the top of a 2-story marble stairway (outside), crit from leaping, crit from behind, ridiculous strength, plus falling down the stairs and plowing into the building at the bottom. He wasn't answering any questions after that, being dead, and we all got a laugh.

In a very similar scenario involving a multi-setting cross-over, the DMA turned to the magic user, and said "Ask him your questions."
The magic user then proceeded to use Necromancy.
Questions were answered.
The Secret Operative, Mutant Turtle (an original), and the Para-Psychologist were a little creeped out though.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by me.
How about this? If your opponent has scouted you, and learned your moves, he gets a free Automatic Dodge because he knows that you're going to use that one attack. The Auto Dodge lasts until you switch attacks.

Originally posted by Dark Brandon.
Define "scouted". What does that mean in game terms?

Bad guy watches good guy fight.

Originally posted by me.
I'd be throwing everything and the kitchen sink at him.

Originally posted by Dark Brandon.
In otherwords you'd use what is most effective.

No, I mean everything; knees, elbows, roundhouse kicks, uppercuts. Everything. I'm going to keep throwing different techniques until the guy is overwhelmed.

Originally posted by Dark Brandon.
And if youre tiger punch does the most damage, is just as likely to hit, you'd use it, over and over again to survive, cause it makes good IC sense.

No. It makes good gamer sense. In real life people learn. That's why you never throw the same technique more than three times in a row, and even that third time is pushing it.

Originally posted by me.
Here's another one, don't give them the experience points for "good roleplaying". And when they ask why, tell them "You don't role play your fights very well." Maybe they'll get the hint.

Originally posted by Dark Brandon.
GM: Well, i'm taking exp away from you because you only used that one move over and over again. Poor RP

Player: So, it's IC to use a weak move like jab, when my crane punch is just as accurate and even more efficient in a fight that could mean my characters life. But it's OOC to use this because my character wants to survive?

GM: And your Crescent Kick does even more damage, but you made no attempt to use that. All you did was say "I hit him with my Crane's Beak Fist." over and over again. You asked no questions about the room you were fighting in, you asked no questions about your opponent other than" This is the guy in charge, right?" All in all, poor roleplaying. Next question?


Look. We keep giving you ways to break this guy of his habit, and you keep doing the internet equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you." Are you ever going to try any of it?

[dark brandon]

Bad guy watches good guy fight.

"Enemie watches good guy fight"...Ok...so, what? How long does he have to watch him fight? What skill (if any) does he roll on? What bonuses is he granted? What can a player do to counter-act it? If you do a move 3 times in a row, they get some kind of bonus? what kind? How long in between a hit before a player can use it again without penalties?

No, I mean everything; knees, elbows, roundhouse kicks, uppercuts. Everything. I'm going to keep throwing different techniques until the guy is overwhelmed.

No, you're going to use what does the most damage because it makes the most sense. Using knees, elbows ect...does "not" overwhelm anyone in the game. House-rules, sure, that's why I brought this here. What are your house rules. Are they just a random jumble of a subjective line of thought? If so, well, ok, thanks. Not what I was looking for. If you have an actual outline I could give my players then that would be more helpful.

No. It makes good gamer sense. In real life people learn. That's why you never throw the same technique more than three times in a row, and even that third time is pushing it.

Ok, so what are the game mechanics? How does this translate into game?

GM: And your Crescent Kick does even more damage, but you made no attempt to use that. All you did was say "I hit him with my Crane's Beak Fist." over and over again. You asked no questions about the room you were fighting in, you asked no questions about your opponent other than" This is the guy in charge, right?" All in all, poor roleplaying. Next question?

Semantics. Not worried about them. I think to do a crescent kick you have to have a certain amount of room or distance. So, instead he does Crescent kick until those conditions are no longer met and then switches to his crane fist. Problem not solved.

Look. We keep giving you ways to break this guy of his habit, and you keep doing the internet equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you." Are you ever going to try any of it?

Maybe, if we ever play NSS again. I'm not saying "i can't hear you", but I need game mechanics. RP is not a 'Good reason'. I'm sorry, it's not something you want to hear, and probably something you don't understand, which is fine. I need something solid, to give my players, in writing and say "here", and not because they are poor players or anything. They are using the same line of thought I would be using, "character survival is #1 priority." Well, aside from having fun. You're too busy playing "You're a bad GM and have poor players" to really answer what I am asking.

I'm not asking for RP advice which is what I'm being given. I need/want hard "these are the rules of engagment" type system and what I had originally set out to do. Give hard numbers, with hard reasoning so that before hand, my players can plan out their moves and to use certain attacks that are all but forgotten, like a jab. If you have something solid, I could give my players, then yes, I'd love to see it. If the best you got is "punish them by giving bonuses to the enemie"...then no. I'm not looking for subjectivness, sorry.

[Sentinel]

"Enemie watches good guy fight"...Ok...so, what? How long does he have to watch him fight? What skill (if any) does he roll on? What bonuses is he granted? What can a player do to counter-act it? If you do a move 3 times in a row, they get some kind of bonus? what kind? How long in between a hit before a player can use it again without penalties?

I usually give a character (attacker or defender, as appropriate) a +1 to defend or counter-strike (again, depending on what makes sense at the moment) after they have successfully rolled a Perception to determine the style their opponent is using.
The character over-using the attack (Crane Fist in your example) gets no additional bonus or penalty, to keep it simple: he strikes as he always had. But, his opponent is getting a cumulative +1 to parry this attack every time it's used. Eventually, the parry bonus could get above +10 on top of PP and HtH bonuses to parry. The Crane stylist ought to learn something here.

I will generally not penalize any use of the same attack less than three times in a row. Combinations based on real life combos like Jab-Jab-Roundhouse are okay. Tae Kwon Do kickers might throw three snap kicks (Low-Medium-High: they look like roundhouse kicks, but they are really more Snap Kicks).
Three times or less in the same round, and I have no real issue. More than that, and I am looking at giving the opponent the bonus to parry/etc.
That bonus also applies to Combination Parry/Strike, Strike/Parry, Reverse Turning Kick, and Power Block/Parry if the opponent should have any of those moves.

No, you're going to use what does the most damage because it makes the most sense. Using knees, elbows ect...does "not" overwhelm anyone in the game.

I enforce the Ranges: players are often too close to use Roundhouse Kick, or Power Punch, or too far for a Leap Attack (unless they have superhuman leaping abilities), and so on.
The use of KO/Stun enhances the overwhelming Blitz attack, as do the use of special katas like Lighting Kata and the Chao Ta kata (I forgot its' name).
Also, you might add the house rule that any blow that lands allows the attacker to reverse initiative and strike again (or, any blow of Natural 19 or 20, or whatever works for you). Thus, you could roll to strike, beat the opponents' parry, and get to strike again immediately, thus overwhelming the opponent.

The point of giving the bonus to the opponent is not to "punish" the players, but to force them to break their routine and use all their maneuvers. If a player is going to use three attacks over and over, then I will recommend he take HtH Expert, and I am less likely to penalize this because he has fewer moves to begin with.
But, if he chooses a style like WuShu T'Sung, then I expect to see a lot of acrobatic fighting with a wide variety of attacks and defenses.
It is difficult to separate Role Play from combat mechanics because (game mechanics aside) a character with a simple no-nonsense style (like Jujutsu) should fight more realistically, while a showboat with TKD ought to be flying around with amazing leap kicks until he's too close, and then lots of kicking combos. Those are functions of Role-Play. When a character isn't fighting as he should based on his choice of fighting style (A Crane Stylist fighting like a Heavyweight Boxer with one big punch) then penalize their EXP. Slow level advancement will also cue them in that they should expand their repitoire of techniques.

[dark brandon]

I usually give a character (attacker or defender, as appropriate) a +1 to defend or counter-strike (again, depending on what makes sense at the moment) after they have successfully rolled a Perception to determine the style their opponent is using.
The character over-using the attack (Crane Fist in your example) gets no additional bonus or penalty, to keep it simple: he strikes as he always had. But, his opponent is getting a cumulative +1 to parry this attack every time it's used. Eventually, the parry bonus could get above +10 on top of PP and HtH bonuses to parry. The Crane stylist ought to learn something here.

So, how often would he not have to use it to remove the penalty? WOuld his next attack actually get a bonus to strike because the enemie is expecting one attack when he does another?

I enforce the Ranges:

As do I, but the ranges doesn't change the fact that if he's in one range, he'll only use one move, and if he's in another range he'll only use the other move. I'm looking for ways to want my PC's to diversify their attacks.

[Sentinel]

So, how often would he not have to use it to remove the penalty?

The following Initiative Roll would be sufficient.
WOuld his next attack actually get a bonus to strike because the enemie is expecting one attack when he does another?

You could use that: I never did, with the rationale that the opponent was familiar with the style (maybe the TKD kicker finally stopped using Roundhouse Kick over and over, but TKD is still Kick oriented, and I still expect a certain amount of kicking to go on).
I don't think it's a bad idea, but for my purposes, once the player layed off overusing the same attack ad nauseum, I saw no need to belabor it anymore in terms of bonuses or penalties.