Thoughts on the Dominators...

[Braden Campbell]

I was going to include the Dominators in my Rifter submission, but chose not to.

Because they are simply ridiculous.

If you assume that one of their "planetoid-sized" ships is the size of a large asteroid (I used Vesta (( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta )) as an example)... then each Dominator ship is over 300 miles across!

They would be the Three Galaxies equivalent of Dolza's Command Fortress, and could mount many of those weapons which "destroys everything in its path of fire, regardless of MDC".

No frickin' wonder everyone in the Three Galaxies hates and fears them...even the Splugorth. Just one of these things could wipe out an entire sector of space. PC would stand no chance of running into one.

That being said, I am going to draft some specs for their ships, in case you Phase World GM's care to go kill a Demon Planet or something.

[Marrowlight]

I was going to include the Dominators in my Rifter submission, but chose not to.

Because they are simply ridiculous.

If you assume that one of their "planetoid-sized" ships is the size of a large asteroid (I used Vesta (( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta )) as an example)... then each Dominator ship is over 300 miles across!

They would be the Three Galaxies equivalent of Dolza's Command Fortress, and could mount many of those weapons which "destroys everything in its path of fire, regardless of MDC".

No frickin' wonder everyone in the Three Galaxies hates and fears them...even the Splugorth. Just one of these things could wipe out an entire sector of space. PC would stand no chance of running into one.

That being said, I am going to draft some specs for their ships, in case you Phase World GM's care to go kill a Demon Planet or something.

Other than just being bigger than everyone else, is it the physics of the size that makes them ridiculous or trying to scale them, or what? That sounds real nasty - but so does a large fleet of CCW ships. Neither sounds like it should be handled by a single party, but if part of a larger campaign not that implausible, y'know?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I was going to include the Dominators in my Rifter submission, but chose not to.

Because they are simply ridiculous.

If you assume that one of their "planetoid-sized" ships is the size of a large asteroid (I used Vesta (( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta )) as an example)... then each Dominator ship is over 300 miles across!

They would be the Three Galaxies equivalent of Dolza's Command Fortress, and could mount many of those weapons which "destroys everything in its path of fire, regardless of MDC".

No frickin' wonder everyone in the Three Galaxies hates and fears them...even the Splugorth. Just one of these things could wipe out an entire sector of space. PC would stand no chance of running into one.

That being said, I am going to draft some specs for their ships, in case you Phase World GM's care to go kill a Demon Planet or something.

yes, tehy are that huge and hard to destroy.

remember how they had to use a Black Hole Projector to take most of them out?

[Jesterzzn]

Ever see that Disney short, oh I can't remember the name, but its based on Jack and the Beanstalk (probably Mickey and the Beanstalk or something less than original, anyways...)? Well I play dominators like that Giant, not because its realistic, but because its fun.

[Braden Campbell]

... is it the physics of the size that makes them ridiculous or trying to scale them, or what?

Using this size-scale as a template, a Dominator Star Fort would have billions of MDC (or higher), and be able to carry hundreds or thousands of weapons. Hell, each ship could have an orbiting network of defensive satellites that you'd have to get though first.

I used to think the stats for one of the Robotech Factories would do the job, but this kind of ship would be bigger even than that... and a Robotech Factory is ARMED, let me tell you.

I have no trouble with the physics. The Dominators are fallen gods from the Elder Times.... long before any of the mortal races in the Three Galaxies could make fire. Their technology should present the end-all, be-all end of the gigadamage scale.

[Marrowlight]

... is it the physics of the size that makes them ridiculous or trying to scale them, or what?

Using this size-scale as a template, a Dominator Star Fort would have billions of MDC (or higher), and be able to carry hundreds or thousands of weapons. Hell, each ship could have an orbiting network of defensive satellites that you'd have to get though first.

I used to think the stats for one of the Robotech Factories would do the job, but this kind of ship would be bigger even than that... and a Robotech Factory is ARMED, let me tell you.

I have no trouble with the physics. The Dominators are fallen gods from the Elder Times.... long before any of the mortal races in the Three Galaxies could make fire. Their technology should present the end-all, be-all end of the gigadamage scale.

So just ridiculously massive mdc.

[Braden Campbell]

And a horrific number of attacks per round.

[Marrowlight]

And a horrific number of attacks per round.

That's what auto-dodge mecha is for!

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

The planetoid ships from the Mutineers Moon trilogy published by Baen would sorta fit what you could expect from a Dominator Ship. Stuff like having it's own fleet of "light" attack vessels that are "only" 1/2 mile long or beam weapons so powerful that they cause nuclear detonations on contact with matter.

[KLM]

Errr.... There are probably hundreds of Dominators scattered
in the Three Galaxies. Now...

...if they have ships which can go toe to toe with a Doombringer
or a CAF battlegroup there is a question: Why the CCW, the TGE,
the UWW (etc.) exists at all?

So, while Dominator vessels might be powerfull, they are not
omnipotent. Maybe they are poorly equipped against fighters,
and a Battleram squadron (with Silverhawk support) boarding
might give more than a headache for the big bald guy...
..whatever.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

...if they have ships which can go toe to toe with a Doombringer
or a CAF battlegroup there is a question: Why the CCW, the TGE,
the UWW (etc.) exists at all?

having ships and actually mobilizing them against targets are two different things.

Yeah. That is why the the Dominators actually exist - because
they cannot be - easily - ganged upon by fleets of the current
power blocks of the Three Galaxies

Promethean Phase Adepts (...)

Huhh...? What the Prometheans are having to do with this?
I do not think, that the Prometheans will protect ANY planet
except their own.

and then maybe the Dominator reproductive cycle isn't that prolific...there might just not be enough of them, especially once you trim back the original numbers.

DMB2, page 96:

A few hundred dominators escaped in their personal spaceships, giant planetiod sized behemoths, with enough firepower to devastate a planet

This means, that usually there are only one Dominator per ship,
hopefully half of the perished over the past 50 millenia, and even
is they did not reproduced, they are presumed to have an
indefinite lifespan. Fortunately, they - officially - tend to work alone.

On the other hand, the Protector class (CCW) Battleship is capable
to "shatter a small moon or devastate a planet"...
...therefore a Dominator ship is IMO the rough equivalent of a
Doombringer (plus its fighters) in combat ability (with probably
better FTL).

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Promethean Phase Adepts (...)

Huhh...? What the Prometheans are having to do with this?
I do not think, that the Prometheans will protect ANY planet
except their own.

So in your model of the 3 Galaxies, the Pro's just sit on their hands while the rest of the place gets trashed ? Maybe you need to re-read the section on the Phase Adepts and Cosmo-Knights. If those two groups work together (not fully) there'd be some cross-pollination of political ideas at some point.

Well in my Center, there is a large section rented by the Sploogs,
who aren't much nicer guy, than the Dominators. This is after a
rather interesting conflict between the Sploogies and the Prometheans.

Also, in my 3Gs, there are Phase Adepts, who methodically hunt
Cosmo Knights (a minority, but present).

Plus, the Cosmo Knight actually oppose the TGE, so they do not
protect the Kreeghors against the Dominators.

Wait, this is - lucky me - canon.

This means, that usually there are only one Dominator per ship,
hopefully half of the perished over the past 50 millenia, and even
is they did not reproduced, they are presumed to have an
indefinite lifespan. Fortunately, they - officially - tend to work alone.

Right, once you whittle them down they won't be coming back in any numbers.

At least we agree on something. Besides, Dominators usually
do not have suicidal tendencies, but inhumanly patient (IMO).

As for the "warship capabilities", it's just fluff text. PB says alot of things, most of it I flush down the bowl...

So, you throw out fluff text, but also, do not bother with stats for
ship larger than a frigate. Interesting.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Gadrin, while I enjoy this debate, even in its current
no-sense form, but for clearance, may I get your
opinion about the Dominator ships?

Rough - non-stat - comparison with canon fleet formations,
numbers, and how do they affect the 3Gs?

Adios
KLM

[Braden Campbell]

yeah. the bigger ships are there for cinematic battle scenes at best. But I'm liking the notion of a Dominator Star fort with little to no point defense... sine, per per my Fleets suggested rule, space fighters cannot harm any part of a cruiser-size ship or larger whose original MDC is 1000 points or more.

So you cannot drop a Doombringer in your little, piddly Katana fighter.

But giant robots could bash their way in... fight off hordes of robotic defenders, cause havoc, free those sexy slave women... maybe even run off with a Starsplitter.


Nice.

[Aramanthus]

Actually the fighters would be able to damage ships larger than Cruisers. Think about Babylon 5. There is a tremendous amount of fighter interaction with major fleet battles. You have to believe if the shields on a major capitol ship are down, and there are squadrons of fighters around it's going to be like piranhas attacking their dinner. The capitol ship might survive, but maybe not.

[Braden Campbell]

You'll have to read the article when it sees print.

I (and many other science fiction writers) have a big problem with the accepted rule that the mightiest battle stations (read: Death Stars) can be incapacited or destroyed by a fighter the size of an F-14.

Space fighters can inflict damage to force fields, and can harm big ships by being loaded with cruise missiles. But other than that, there is simply no way that their puny weapons can possibly harm a star ship with 200,000 MDC.

they do have their uses, as you will read in Fleets of the Three Galaxies, but killing dreadnoughts is not one of them. Fleet commanders have to be smarter than that, and cannot just send hundreds of tiny fighters out to cripple the enemy command ship.

[Marrowlight]

You'll have to read the article when it sees print.

I (and many other science fiction writers) have a big problem with the accepted rule that the mightiest battle stations (read: Death Stars) can be incapacited or destroyed by a fighter the size of an F-14.

Space fighters can inflict damage to force fields, and can harm big ships by being loaded with cruise missiles. But other than that, there is simply no way that their puny weapons can possibly harm a star ship with 200,000 MDC.

they do have their uses, as you will read in Fleets of the Three Galaxies, but killing dreadnoughts is not one of them. Fleet commanders have to be smarter than that, and cannot just send hundreds of tiny fighters out to cripple the enemy command ship.

Hrm, not to quibble, but is there a size comparison of fighters to the gun batteries of dreadnoughts? It might be possible to build ships for that purpose even though they'd be worthless against other personal fighters.

However, that begs the question - if the Big Ships are just that tough, why bother having the small ships at all? Just to hassle each other doesn't seem a good enough answer and Phase World has robots and power armor to defend against hull bording parties/sabatogue agents.

[Braden Campbell]

"What space fighters are good for" is the title of that particluar section in the article.

And as for dreadnought super weapons smacking down fighters... they are at -14 to hit them, plus, you have to factor in the pilot's dodge bonus as well.

Fighters are excellent missile delivery systems, and are perfect for taking out other fighters. And they are way faster than robots or power armour. Plus, they are good units for putting out on the picket line (1000 miles out) as an early arning detector for the rest of the main fleet.

But ship killers they ain't.

[Marrowlight]

"What space fighters are good for" is the title of that particluar section in the article.

And as for dreadnought super weapons smacking down fighters... they are at -14 to hit them, plus, you have to factor in the pilot's dodge bonus as well.

Fighters are excellent missile delivery systems, and are perfect for taking out other fighters. And they are way faster than robots or power armour. Plus, they are good units for putting out on the picket line (1000 miles out) as an early arning detector for the rest of the main fleet.

But ship killers they ain't.

I'll have to see the article then, I guess, 'cause in a system where they can't whittle away at the big ships there doesn't seem much point for them unless you're opting for a lot of smaller class ships that they can rough up.

After all, while the second and third guys to design personal fighters could obviously go "Well we need one to fight those pesky CCW personal fighters" the first guys are a bit tougher to rationalize. "I need a single man fighter that can't actually hurt anything of real importance in space....and I need thousands of them!"

[Aramanthus]

I am looking forward to reading the article too!

[KLM]

Space fighters can inflict damage to force fields, and can harm big ships by being loaded with cruise missiles. But other than that, there is simply no way that their puny weapons can possibly harm a star ship with 200,000 MDC.

they do have their uses, as you will read in Fleets of the Three Galaxies, but killing dreadnoughts is not one of them. Fleet commanders have to be smarter than that, and cannot just send hundreds of tiny fighters out to cripple the enemy command ship.

Errr... On the receiving end of a 400+ cruise missile swarm,
it really does not matter, who launched those missiles.

Besides, being swarmed by starfighters have its problems.
There are antennae, airlocks, hangars but most importantly
the weapons that can effectively hurt starfighters on a dreadnought
- these are outside of the main armor, therefore vulnerable to
their guns.
Now, sitting in a Doombringer, without those point defense
guns, with strongly diminished sensors, while there is somewhere
a CCW ship, with hundreds of cruise missiles to be launched
at any time... Is not the experience one wants to have.

But yeah, odds are, that starfighters possibly cannot penetrate
the main armor.
Except when attacking already dented, what is more, already
penetrated areas - a hit on the main body from another
dreadnought's main guns (or cruise missiles) leaves a crater
several meters wide.
That stings, but untill something does not hit the vessel on the
same spot, it is not "life threatening". But nothing prevents
starfighters to target these spots.

On the other side, if there is ample space to manouver,
(and no FTL interdiction!) a capital ship can just pounce
on incoming starfighters, draw some blood, and jump to FTL
just before her shields collaps, then recharge the shields,
reload guns, and coming back.

Finally, there is the issue of loss ratio of attacking starfighters.
A massed fighter attack on a capital ship - even if successfull
- will cost the attacker dozens, if not hundreds of starfighters.

So, aerospace supremacy does decide battles.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

More importantly, there is the question a "world balance".

Sticking to the Dominator example... We have major power blocks
in the 3 Galaxies. They are capable to kick each other's behind,
but it will cost them dearly.

Now throw in the Dominators.

I they are able to operate within a power block's territory,
without much fear, they will kill that power blocks within a
century - but this obviously did not happen.

Therefore those Dominator ships are comparable to the
3G standard fleets - even if this means like comparing
the Sherman vs. the Königtiger.
One have the rought approximation of like 10 Shermans might
be able to kill a lone panzer, with losing 5 or 6 allied tanks,
but this is a far cry from total axis battlefield dominance
even in the terms of armor.

Yet, this is also way more detailed and usable, than stating that
"players should run from a Dominator ship".
Just see the Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy. The players are hopelessly
outgunned by the mechanoids, yet they have a chance.

In the Dominator ship's case, the PC's might have magic, psionic
and phase powers, which their foe does not... The chances are more
favourable.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

But of course, the Battleram has over 2000 MDC, and still must be
vulnerable to fighter attacks. Same for the Runner ship, Merchantman
and of course every "canon" frigate.

Adios
KLM

[Braden Campbell]

Just to clarify...

This "rule" would apply to any ship of cruiser-size or larger. It means that when attacking bigger ships, space fighters can take out point dfense turrets, airlocks, sensors, missile launcher, and anything whose MDC value is 1000 points or less. But things like the main body, main engines, and any structure whos e original value is over 1000 points can'tbe affected... the armour is simply too thick.

Space fighters attack each other as per normal rules, and can really do a number on shuttles, and frigates.

And as I said before, all their weapons hurt force fields... so a common tactic is to swarm a capital ship with fighters who wittle down the enemy's sheilds, then get out fo the way so tht the big guns of hte battleship in the back can fire directly ontothe enemy hull.

Also, any space fighter rigged to carry cruise missiles can hurt a starship location whose MDC is over 1000. A wing of 12 fighters each carying two anti-matter torpedos can then deal enough damge in a single blow to cripple a ship the size of a warshield... but ony by using those anti-captial ship torpedos.

[Gomen_Nagai]

2000 MDC is a tiny Value for MDC ships, as there ARE destroyable by things like a Single Veritech bomber.



your rule needs fixing, in HU GG, They decided Weapons fired from cruisers under 300 tons were not going to hurt Battle grade Armor, ... and those weapons were doing hundreds of damage.

[Nekira Sudacne]

2000 MDC is a tiny Value for MDC ships, as there ARE destroyable by things like a Single Veritech bomber.



your rule needs fixing, in HU GG, They decided Weapons fired from cruisers under 300 tons were not going to hurt Battle grade Armor, ... and those weapons were doing hundreds of damage.

but HU:GG does not have MDC rules, which is what we're dealing with.

remember, even in the main book it said "some attacks like punchs/kicks and firearms are simply never going ot damage a bank valt, ect"

MDC changes the rules.

[Gomen_Nagai]

2000 MDC is a tiny Value for MDC ships, as there ARE destroyable by things like a Single Veritech bomber.



your rule needs fixing, in HU GG, They decided Weapons fired from cruisers under 300 tons were not going to hurt Battle grade Armor, ... and those weapons were doing hundreds of damage.

but HU:GG does not have MDC rules, which is what we're dealing with.

remember, even in the main book it said "some attacks like punchs/kicks and firearms are simply never going ot damage a bank valt, ect"

MDC changes the rules.

braden proposed Fighters can't damage ships with 2000 mdc.

[KLM]

Adding to Branden's credit he clarified, that the 1000 MDC rule applies
to cruiser sized vessels, and any part of the ship(s) which are over
1000 MDC are impervious to "fighter scale weapons".

He mentioned only cruise missiles/anti-ship torpedoes as "capital"
weapons, but I guess some heavy LRMs and the dedicated "anti
ship weapons" (like the plasma pod of the Katana fighter, doing
d4*100 MD) are also capable to knocking out a - say - 2700 MDC
turret.

Adios
KLM

[Braden Campbell]

Now you've got it.

I told you, it reads easier than I can explain it...

[Denizen]

Too powerful?

Well, Dominators are Phase World's homage to Galactus, after all.

[KLM]

Too powerful?

Well, Dominators are Phase World's homage to Galactus, after all.

Right.

Now, Galactus is a single entity. Dominators are a race (fortunately
it looks like, they are about to extinct, even if ti takes several hundred
thousand years or so).

Imagine the effect of hundreds of Galactus-like beings...

Adios
KLM

[Braden Campbell]

Kind of, yeah.

And as for the Dominators... their name is what they are. They have an uncontrollable urge to subjugate all other races. Not destroy them, per se, but to lord over them, making sure that they (the Dominators) are the top cats.

I am working on the idea that the Doms are the victims of a self-fulfilling prophesy: that 50,000 years ago, they tried to killed everyone else in the Three Galaxies because they knew that someday they would be defeated by the Lesser Races.

[Braden Campbell]

Just FYI:

I've done the math. Assuming that a Dominator ship is a sphere 30 miles across... and that its hull is as strong as the Marduk Fortress (7500 MDC/5000 square feet)... then the total MDC of such a sphere would be...


10.4 trillion MDC.


Obviously, I'll be scaling that down a bit for game play....

[Killer Cyborg]

Just FYI:

I've done the math. Assuming that a Dominator ship is a sphere 30 miles across... and that its hull is as strong as the Marduk Fortress (7500 MDC/5000 square feet)... then the total MDC of such a sphere would be...


10.4 trillion MDC.


Obviously, I'll be scaling that down a bit for game play....

Now calculate the MDC of a Glitterboy if it's made from material that's as strong as normal EBA.

[Jefffar]

I'd say Mass is a better thing to calculate relative MDC by than surface area.

The mass of the approximately 50 km by 50 km Marduk fortress is apparently around 500 000 million tons - according to Macross II Deck Plans I

So figure out the mass of your Dominator fortress and go by that.

[Aramanthus]

That does sound reasonable, the mass that is. Not sure about the Megadamage of the Dominator ship. It seems way out there.

[Vrykolas2k]

I think personally that sending three Doombringer Dreadnoughts against a Dominator ship would be like sending three WWII destroyers carrying PT boats against the Bismark. Might do some damage, IF they managed to get close enough. But they'd likely be destroyed ere they knew they were in a fight.

[Greyaxe]

But of course, the Battleram has over 2000 MDC, and still must be
vulnerable to fighter attacks. Same for the Runner ship, Merchantman
and of course every "canon" frigate.

Adios
KLM

THe are vulnerable but not from the fighters main weapon systems. The main weapon systems are good for depleting the force fields once down you hit the main body or bridge or engines with a cruise missile and at 4d6x100 that is one he## of a blow. theoretically 3-4 fighters can take out a frigate in hit and run tactics. A doombringer can then take on approximately 30-50 frigates and successfully wipe out the fleet with its 600 fighters (if armed with cruise missiles). There is a place for fighters they simply have to be used appropriately.

[Braden Campbell]

I'll say only this:

Kill the Dominator, kill the ship...

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'll say only this:

Kill the Dominator, kill the ship...

Actually, do what Ed's rifts group did.

kill the dominatorm, SELL the ship for billions to bankroll all future advnetures, and buy rune weapons for everyone to boot!

[shadrak]

Dominator Ship = 10.4 trillion MDC...sure, fine, but how much MDC is in a 100' by 100' area? And when a capital ship is destroyed, not every part of the structure is depleted (USS Arizona is well sunk, but it's still there...inflicting 1000 MDC to an 8000 MDC should eliminate it as a threat).


However, Palladium treats MDC as an armor that must be sand-blasted away to nothing before anything happens...for example, a SAMAS must take 250 MD to the main body to be destroyed when we all know a T-72 can be destroyed by a single Abrams round while the chassis is mostly intact.

For this reason, I don't agree with the requirement that Star fighters cannot damage a capital warship...while this is logically consistant, it is inconsistant with palladium's system. I would be willing to play a different game with these rules or even rifts with these rules, but the rules should carry over into the remainder of the game...

In short, MDC has no AR.

[shadrak]

Dimensional pockets


You guys come up with some good universal rules for penetration (that can be used on Dead Boy armor and on a 1 million + MDC Starship) and I will use them. Good luck!!!

[Nekira Sudacne]

Now tell me how you're going to feed the entire crew and have room for anything besides food in storage.

Magic.

[RockJock]

Using the WWII fighter versus ship idea a bomb or torpedo does damage to the structure the machine guns on the fighters do not. They might take out the radar tower, or the communcations room, but not the superstructure. The same with the proposed rules.

[shadrak]

using modern side arms and main battle tanks, modern side arms do no damage to a main battle tank...in rifts, they can...

Fix the rules for them all.