Regarding the Dedicated Martial Artist

[Sentinel]

What's your opinion? Would the DMA be better as an OCC with more fighting art skills, or more skills other than combat related?

[Library Ogre]

I think that the DMA should have a few more skills... while studying the fighting arts has consumed his time for the better part of his life, it can't be all that he's learned.

Mind you, this might require a few skill programs to be created for the purpose, but I think it's a good idea.

[Overlord Rikonius]

I voted for the second option, because the DMA needs some skills. Nunchuck skills, computer hacking skills. You know, skills. Gosh!

[Glistam]

I don't see why the DMA needs more skills when he has two martial arts forms. Those took up a large chunk of his life to learn. While every one else was out learning skills like pilot: auto and literacy he was learning how to manage two separate combat forms. I say leave him as is, or beef up all the characters equally. If you want to give him more skill programs then trade in his martial arts powers for non-physical skill programs on a one-for-one basis. You'll get a lot of skills doing that.

[Sentinel]

I don't see why (even with two martial arts) the DMA can only have two secondary skills.
Even Shaolin Monks know more than this.
It seems stupid to me that a DMA with Thai Kickboxing cannot get boxing.

[Glistam]

But he dedicated himself to Thai Kickboxing. Why would he try to pick up a smattering of boxing when he's got Thai Kickboxing?

[Sentinel]

Thai Kickboxing (in real life) employs principles found in boxing in additon to the kicking element.
The physical skill provides advantages that the DMA wouldn't get with Thai Boxing all by itself.

All around, the DMA could profit by becoming a better rounded character with access to a greater selection of skills, and not just combat skills, but skills like Chinese Literacy (Mystic China), or Temple and Philosophical Skills, Domestic Skills, additional Languages, Literacies, etc.
DMAs should be able to do more than just fight, without having to trade off their martial arts powers to do so.

[Guest]

I don't see why the DMA needs more skills when he has two martial arts forms.

Because, in the "revised" edition, they don't necessarily get two styles. Which means that a poor DMA with that one Exclusive style doesn't stack up to the Operative Agent with his non-Exclusive style AND SIX (6) skill programs.

Those took up a large chunk of his life to learn. While every one else was out learning skills like pilot: auto and literacy he was learning how to manage two separate combat forms. I say leave him as is, or beef up all the characters equally. If you want to give him more skill programs then trade in his martial arts powers for non-physical skill programs on a one-for-one basis. You'll get a lot of skills doing that.

Hmm...Basic skill programs average 5 skills per program, given an average range of 4 martial art powers to trade in for skill programs, that comes out ot 20 skills. Operative agent who has two espionage skill programs (with an average of 9.7 skills), two military skill programs (with an average of 10.5 skills), and two additional skill programs, which can be Gizmoteer, Medical or Basic (all told the average would be 6.8 skills), PLUS the option to trade in those two MAPs for another 10 skill gives us a total of 64 skills (on average). That's not even CLOSE to being balanced. The fact of the matter is, the Revised versions of the DMA and WMA got shafted as far as comparable playability.


Sentinel, you forgot an option in your poll, "Other". I prefer to overhaul ALL the OCCs into a much more customizable format that retains balance and playability.

[Sentinel]

Sentinel, you forgot an option in your poll, "Other". I prefer to overhaul ALL the OCCs into a much more customizable format that retains balance and playability.

I didn't forget.
I just wanted to focus exclusively on the DMA. There are certainly things that could be done to the other OCCs, and many others, yourself included, have suggested good fixes overall.
I was wanting to get a feel for whether folks thought the DMA needed skills, or not, or whether an additional Martial Art (3 non-exclusive, or one exclusive and one non exclusive) would be better.

[Glistam]

Thai Kickboxing (in real life) employs principles found in boxing in additon to the kicking element.
The physical skill provides advantages that the DMA wouldn't get with Thai Boxing all by itself.

In real life Aikido also trains in the use of weapons. N&SS specifically states that there were aspects of the real life martial arts forms left out of the game.

All around, the DMA could profit by becoming a better rounded character with access to a greater selection of skills, and not just combat skills, but skills like Chinese Literacy (Mystic China), or Temple and Philosophical Skills, Domestic Skills, additional Languages, Literacies, etc.
DMAs should be able to do more than just fight, without having to trade off their martial arts powers to do so.

Wheras I personally feel that it's fine as is. Being able to trade in some of his martial arts powers for skill programs works fine as an option for me. You want to play a character who's spent most of his life training in a monestary in the wilds of the world? Then expect to not have 64 skills available (on average) for your starting character. What you lose in game mechanics you gain in interesting role play opportunities and background.

I don't see why the DMA needs more skills when he has two martial arts forms.

Because, in the "revised" edition, they don't necessarily get two styles. Which means that a poor DMA with that one Exclusive style doesn't stack up to the Operative Agent with his non-Exclusive style AND SIX (6) skill programs.

Those took up a large chunk of his life to learn. While every one else was out learning skills like pilot: auto and literacy he was learning how to manage two separate combat forms. I say leave him as is, or beef up all the characters equally. If you want to give him more skill programs then trade in his martial arts powers for non-physical skill programs on a one-for-one basis. You'll get a lot of skills doing that.

Hmm...Basic skill programs average 5 skills per program, given an average range of 4 martial art powers to trade in for skill programs, that comes out ot 20 skills. Operative agent who has two espionage skill programs (with an average of 9.7 skills), two military skill programs (with an average of 10.5 skills), and two additional skill programs, which can be Gizmoteer, Medical or Basic (all told the average would be 6.8 skills), PLUS the option to trade in those two MAPs for another 10 skill gives us a total of 64 skills (on average). That's not even CLOSE to being balanced. The fact of the matter is, the Revised versions of the DMA and WMA got shafted as far as comparable playability.

The real fact of the matter is, Palladium has mentioned on more than one occasion that real life isn't balanced so their games are not either. I have no predjudice against the Revised version of N&SS and I have no issue with a Dedicated Martial Artist being "shafted" in skills due to their sheltered life.

[Sentinel]

Thai Kickboxing (in real life) employs principles found in boxing in additon to the kicking element.
The physical skill provides advantages that the DMA wouldn't get with Thai Boxing all by itself.

In real life Aikido also trains in the use of weapons. N&SS specifically states that there were aspects of the real life martial arts forms left out of the game.

And it would be nice if the DMA could pick up the WP Staff without blowing half of his secondary skill selection.

All around, the DMA could profit by becoming a better rounded character with access to a greater selection of skills, and not just combat skills, but skills like Chinese Literacy (Mystic China), or Temple and Philosophical Skills, Domestic Skills, additional Languages, Literacies, etc.
DMAs should be able to do more than just fight, without having to trade off their martial arts powers to do so.

Wheras I personally feel that it's fine as is. Being able to trade in some of his martial arts powers for skill programs works fine as an option for me. You want to play a character who's spent most of his life training in a monestary in the wilds of the world? Then expect to not have 64 skills available (on average) for your starting character. What you lose in game mechanics you gain in interesting role play opportunities and background.

I don't see why the DMA needs more skills when he has two martial arts forms.

Because, in the "revised" edition, they don't necessarily get two styles. Which means that a poor DMA with that one Exclusive style doesn't stack up to the Operative Agent with his non-Exclusive style AND SIX (6) skill programs.

Those took up a large chunk of his life to learn. While every one else was out learning skills like pilot: auto and literacy he was learning how to manage two separate combat forms. I say leave him as is, or beef up all the characters equally. If you want to give him more skill programs then trade in his martial arts powers for non-physical skill programs on a one-for-one basis. You'll get a lot of skills doing that.

Hmm...Basic skill programs average 5 skills per program, given an average range of 4 martial art powers to trade in for skill programs, that comes out ot 20 skills. Operative agent who has two espionage skill programs (with an average of 9.7 skills), two military skill programs (with an average of 10.5 skills), and two additional skill programs, which can be Gizmoteer, Medical or Basic (all told the average would be 6.8 skills), PLUS the option to trade in those two MAPs for another 10 skill gives us a total of 64 skills (on average). That's not even CLOSE to being balanced. The fact of the matter is, the Revised versions of the DMA and WMA got shafted as far as comparable playability.

The real fact of the matter is, Palladium has mentioned on more than one occasion that real life isn't balanced so their games are not either. I have no predjudice against the Revised version of N&SS and I have no issue with a Dedicated Martial Artist being "shafted" in skills due to their sheltered life.

The presentation of their sheltered life is overly stilted, amking the character less useful in RPG situations other than combat oriented.
It is akin to having a Borg Character trade off Cybernetics and bionics to get skills, or having a Juicer trade their Super Stregth and Endurance for additional skills, and then restricting the skills they could select.

[Guest]

I don't see why the DMA needs more skills when he has two martial arts forms.

Because, in the "revised" edition, they don't necessarily get two styles. Which means that a poor DMA with that one Exclusive style doesn't stack up to the Operative Agent with his non-Exclusive style AND SIX (6) skill programs.

Those took up a large chunk of his life to learn. While every one else was out learning skills like pilot: auto and literacy he was learning how to manage two separate combat forms. I say leave him as is, or beef up all the characters equally. If you want to give him more skill programs then trade in his martial arts powers for non-physical skill programs on a one-for-one basis. You'll get a lot of skills doing that.

Hmm...Basic skill programs average 5 skills per program, given an average range of 4 martial art powers to trade in for skill programs, that comes out ot 20 skills. Operative agent who has two espionage skill programs (with an average of 9.7 skills), two military skill programs (with an average of 10.5 skills), and two additional skill programs, which can be Gizmoteer, Medical or Basic (all told the average would be 6.8 skills), PLUS the option to trade in those two MAPs for another 10 skill gives us a total of 64 skills (on average). That's not even CLOSE to being balanced. The fact of the matter is, the Revised versions of the DMA and WMA got shafted as far as comparable playability.

The real fact of the matter is, Palladium has mentioned on more than one occasion that real life isn't balanced so their games are not either. I have no predjudice against the Revised version of N&SS and I have no issue with a Dedicated Martial Artist being "shafted" in skills due to their sheltered life.

You can't argue that adjusting the DMA requires all the OCCs to be bumped equally and then argue that they don't have to be balanced. Pick one.

[Glistam]

You can't argue that adjusting the DMA requires all the OCCs to be bumped equally and then argue that they don't have to be balanced. Pick one.

I don't see what's confusing you here. The classes don't have to be balanced. I think the imbalance as exists is fine. So if you are going to bump the DMA then you should bump all the classes the same amount in order to preserve the imbalance. Thus, I am arguing both.

[Guest]

You can't argue that adjusting the DMA requires all the OCCs to be bumped equally and then argue that they don't have to be balanced. Pick one.

I don't see what's confusing you here. The classes don't have to be balanced. I think the imbalance as exists is fine. So if you are going to bump the DMA then you should bump all the classes the same amount in order to preserve the imbalance. Thus, I am arguing both.

In other words, you have no justification for bumping the other characters equally. There's no need to "preserve the imbalance."

[Mantisking]

Originally posted byKuseru.
Hmm...Basic skill programs average 5 skills per program, given an average range of 4 martial art powers to trade in for skill programs, that comes out ot 20 skills. Operative agent who has two espionage skill programs (with an average of 9.7 skills), two military skill programs (with an average of 10.5 skills), and two additional skill programs, which can be Gizmoteer, Medical or Basic (all told the average would be 6.8 skills), PLUS the option to trade in those two MAPs for another 10 skill gives us a total of 64 skills (on average). That's not even CLOSE to being balanced. The fact of the matter is, the Revised versions of the DMA and WMA got shafted as far as comparable playability.

Simple solution, only allow the "You may trade MAPs for basic skill programs" to the DMA and WMA. That leaves it at 27 skills for the Op. Agent to 20 skills for the DMA, on average, which is essentially a difference of one skill program.

[Glistam]

You can't argue that adjusting the DMA requires all the OCCs to be bumped equally and then argue that they don't have to be balanced. Pick one.

I don't see what's confusing you here. The classes don't have to be balanced. I think the imbalance as exists is fine. So if you are going to bump the DMA then you should bump all the classes the same amount in order to preserve the imbalance. Thus, I am arguing both.

In other words, you have no justification for bumping the other characters equally. There's no need to "preserve the imbalance."

You don't see a need to "preserve the imbalance." I do. That's the whole point of this discussion. I prefer that no changes be made, but if they are then I think they should be applied equally.

I do not have an issue with playing or allowing a person to play a character who spent his whole life in a remote monestary learning various advanced forms of combat. To my sheltered way of thinking, this guy would've spent his time at the monestary studying combat for the requisite number of years and what little free tiem he had he spent in peaceful meditation and helping to earn his keep. You don't need specific skills to do things like:
Paint walls
Weed a garden
Prepare ingredients
Contemplate his role in the universe

This character is also "fresh" out of training. He is not an "Ancient Master" like can be found in HU2. He is newly experiencing the world. He is still trying to master his martial arts form(s). He has little to no experience outside of where he trained. I see it as an excellent role playing opportunity that doesn't need to be changed. I see this person as a very patient individual who doesn't strive to do much more than master his martial arts. It is what he dedicated his whole life to.

[Sentinel]

I do not have an issue with playing or allowing a person to play a character who spent his whole life in a remote monestary learning various advanced forms of combat. To my sheltered way of thinking, this guy would've spent his time at the monestary studying combat for the requisite number of years and what little free tiem he had he spent in peaceful meditation and helping to earn his keep. You don't need specific skills to do things like:
Paint walls
Weed a garden
Prepare ingredients
Contemplate his role in the universe

But, what would be so unbalancing about giving the DMA skills like Gardening, or Holistic Medicine, or Animal Husbandry, or any of the Domestic Skills? You may not need these specific skills per se, but then really, no one does, and yet every other N&SS OCC has the ability to take a Scholastic Skill to be a carpenter or a painter of artist or singer.
DMAs could benefit from these things, and it wouldn't be disbalancing to allow them to have such skills.

I don't see where such skill additions make the DMA unbalalnced.

[Glistam]

I dont' see anything unbalancing about giving the DMA more skills. I've already admitted that it is unbalanced for him to not have as many skills. I'm simply saying that when I look at the character as is in the Revised version of N&SS, I see a role playing challenge and not that I need to add an extra skill program or two to "bring him up to speed" with other classes. I will agree that giving him more skills will make him more balanced. I agree that allowing him to have domestc skill programs, temple skill programs, or really any skill programs will make the character more well-rounded.

I simply enjoy the feel of the character as he is listed in the book now and I don't see the need to give him more skill programs. If I worried so much about balance in Palladium I'd never be able to read another one of their books. I am simply living with the imbalance.

[Sentinel]

For the role-playing challenge, I prefer that the character I select have the skills appropriate to the OCC. If I want to play a mercenary jet fighter pilot, then I expect to be able to select the relevant skills.
If I am a DMA living a monastic life, I would like to be able to select the appropriate skills for that life, and DMAs will need more than two secondary skills to do so.

Balance is not the same thing as Equality: I don't expect that the DMA will suddenly become a Rogue Scholar with Martial Arts: that would be a little too much (although a Rogue Scholar with HtH: Karate is kinda neat).
It's a little hard to play a character who is more than a combat monster when he gets no real skills aside from those gained by his combat orientation.
It isn't really fair to continue to have the DMA trade off martial powers for skills: the Martial Arts abilities are integral to the character.

So, really it's a question of expanding on the character to a degree that doesn't violate the spirit but at the same time does not reduce the character to a two-dimensional stereotype from a 70s Kung-Fu movie.

[Glistam]

It is hard. That's why I see it as a role playing challenge. If I just gave the DMA a skill program or two I'd be cheating myself out of a challenge that the book presented to me. I fully expect that Kuseru's second edition will remove that challenge. That's fine. But right now the challenge exists and I'm willing to take it.

[Sentinel]

It is hard. That's why I see it as a role playing challenge. If I just gave the DMA a skill program or two I'd be cheating myself out of a challenge that the book presented to me. I fully expect that Kuseru's second edition will remove that challenge. That's fine. But right now the challenge exists and I'm willing to take it.

But, what exactly is the challenge?
To me, it isn't so much challenging as it is pointless to have few skills to even attempt to apply in the first place.
A challenge is using a vagabond to overcome a pair of borgs: the Vagabond has a batter of skills to find creative uses for.
The DMA in any situation outside of combat has few to no skills to attempt to be creative with.

[Library Ogre]

Let's look at it this way.

I make a good, simple Thai boy as a DMA. He enters the monastery, learns an Thai Kick Boxing, and bam, he's a character.

Learning to speak English is 50% of his skill choices. If I want him to meditate, that's the other skills.

They're incompetent, as they currently stand.

[Glistam]

It is hard. That's why I see it as a role playing challenge. If I just gave the DMA a skill program or two I'd be cheating myself out of a challenge that the book presented to me. I fully expect that Kuseru's second edition will remove that challenge. That's fine. But right now the challenge exists and I'm willing to take it.

But, what exactly is the challenge?
To me, it isn't so much challenging as it is pointless to have few skills to even attempt to apply in the first place.
A challenge is using a vagabond to overcome a pair of borgs: the Vagabond has a batter of skills to find creative uses for.
The DMA in any situation outside of combat has few to no skills to attempt to be creative with.

The challenge is in role playing him. Without a stock list of palladium approved skills it will be difficult to flesh out the character. The challenge is in fleshing him out anyway. The challenge is in making him more than just a walking fighting machine that kicks on command and does little else. Having next to nothing for skills does not mean he will be unable to interact with others. But what will be his role in interaction besides combat? That is the challenge.

Again, I impress that I can agree he has few skills. I can agree that the DMA's skill selection is pitiful compared to most other classes. I can agree that if you're interested in introducing the concept of balance into a carelessly edited game then giving them more skills will be a step towards accomplishing that. I can agree that it would be a great thing to see in a second edition of the game. I cannot agree that I feel it should happen right now with the revised edition of N&SS because I'm comfortable with it as it is. If you don't agree with that then that's fine. I'm not here to convince you I'm right. I'm just giving the opinion I was asked for.

I've stated how I can justify his poor skill selection in character (sheltered life in a monestary). I've stated why I could enjoy playing the character as is (a fun role playing challenge). I've stated why I don't feel his poor skill selection is an issue (Their focus is on learning their martial arts and they're not as interested in other skills). I don't know how I can do any of that any clearer. If I want to play a temple raised martial artist with more skills I can play a worldly martial artist.

[Sentinel]

They could at least have skills to portray some some means of success or failure in any given activity.
It's hard to garden when you don't have the skill to roll against. Or practice first aid, or fish, or trap animals (if you're a meat-eating monk), or anything else.
The determination of these things becomes too arbitrary and subjective without Skill Percentages.

[Guest]

Originally posted byKuseru.
Hmm...Basic skill programs average 5 skills per program, given an average range of 4 martial art powers to trade in for skill programs, that comes out ot 20 skills. Operative agent who has two espionage skill programs (with an average of 9.7 skills), two military skill programs (with an average of 10.5 skills), and two additional skill programs, which can be Gizmoteer, Medical or Basic (all told the average would be 6.8 skills), PLUS the option to trade in those two MAPs for another 10 skill gives us a total of 64 skills (on average). That's not even CLOSE to being balanced. The fact of the matter is, the Revised versions of the DMA and WMA got shafted as far as comparable playability.

Simple solution, only allow the "You may trade MAPs for basic skill programs" to the DMA and WMA. That leaves it at 27 skills for the Op. Agent to 20 skills for the DMA, on average, which is essentially a difference of one skill program.

Better check that math again. That's 54 skills for the Operative Agent to 20 skills for the DMA.

[Yendor]

I always found it odd that, yes, they got 2 (IMG 3) Martial Art Forms, and yet only 2 secondary skills. Not to stir the pot, but those who say he/she should have domestic/handyman skills, I agree with (handyman as in carpentry, *maybe* basic mechanics & electronics). I could see them having a couple skill programs (basic) ones from the following list (from N&SS):

Basic: Oriental Studies Skill Program
Basic: Language Skill Program
Basic: Romance Language
Basic: Physical Program
Basic: Ancient Weapon Program
Basic: Cultural Program

But, at the same time, I could see them having the following choices from HU2:

Domestic
Language
Medical Assistant (replacing Computer Operation with something relevant, and Paramedic with Holistic Medicine)
Physical
Technical
Survival/Wilderness

Two of any of those programs would give your typical monk or dedicated martial artist skills that would let him get along ok in the world, at least until it comes to something outside his area of expertise, and still leave plenty of room for RPing and a 'challenge' outside of combat.

[Sentinel]

The Wai Chia Wu Shih OCC in Mystic China gets to pick two martial arts forms and still gets a large skill selection to work with - so I'm in the camp that the DMA is entirely ripped off and should get some more skills.

You could make the case that the Open Hand MA is limited in that they can't select any styles with weapons.
But, yes, they get a decent skill selection.