Combining Styles

[Yendor]

Probably been asked before, but what do you (as a GM), allow to be combined? If a player has 2 martial arts, what ones can 'combine'. We already know Hwarang Do and Moo Gi Gong combine, and I'm curious as to what others have allowed to combine like that (just curious, and trying to pump life into the board )

[Guest]

Officially, none.

Unofficially, there's a few out there.

[Sentinel]

I usually just look for an existing style that already has a composite of techniques.
Sankukai, Yu Sool, Jujutsu, Hwa-Rang Do, and Wui Wing Chun are good examples of styles that have a combination of good strikes, holds/locks, flip/throws, etc, without needing to combine two styles for additional bonus whoring.

[Yendor]

(laughs) Bonus whoring, I like that. I'm not really looking to stack bonuses so heavily it out balances the game, but I think there are some styles that blend together, and was curious what other N&SS GMs have come up with.

[Library Ogre]

Simple answer: Take all the moves of two martial arts. Cut all the bonuses in half, and add them together. That's your new style. Only someone who has studied these two styles will have the same abilities... if you teach this style, you have to pair it down a bit, or have a huge training time.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by MrNexx.
Simple answer: Take all the moves of two martial arts. Cut all the bonuses in half, and add them together. That's your new style. Only someone who has studied these two styles will have the same abilities... if you teach this style, you have to pair it down a bit, or have a huge training time.

Actually it'd be
1.) Total all the moves in both styles.
2.) Total all the bonuses in both styles.
3.) Total all the Martial Arts Powers in both styles.
4.) Total the time cost of both styles.
5.) Halve all the above and round down.

[Sentinel]

Or, in the alternative, you could simply "create" your own styles, as many do.
When I had no JKD, I wrote my own version, based on Bruce Lees' movies (Primarily Return of the Dragon, Enter The Dragon, and Fists Of Fury) and the book The Tao Of JKD. But, and I freely admitted, it was heavily cinematic, because it was more of Lees' on-screen performance I was attempting to capture, as opposed to a more realistic style.
I gave the style Attribute bonuses comparable to Tae Kwon Do (PP, PS, SDC, etc), with the Powers emphasising Body Hardening and Techniques. The maneuvers were mostly hard punches and kicks, with the primary focus on Strike/Parry, Parry/Attack, Grab/Kick, and other combinations.
I included what ever weapons Lee used in film as WPs (staff, sticks, nunchaku, knives). At later levels, a character could accumulate Arts of Invisibility as well.
I made it an Exclusive style because of the number of moves and special abilities, and it turned out to be well balanced overall.

[Sentinel]

I seem to remember something about how Lee Kwon Choo can be blended with other forms. (paraphrasing 'the bonuses in Lee Kwan Choo can be used with other forms, but Lee Kwon Choo itself does no damage)

In all my years in Palladium, Lee Kwan Choo is the one martial art style no player (nor GM) has ever made use of that I have seen.

[Guest]

Simple answer: Take all the moves of two martial arts. Cut all the bonuses in half, and add them together. That's your new style. Only someone who has studied these two styles will have the same abilities... if you teach this style, you have to pair it down a bit, or have a huge training time.

Indepth answer:

1. Get a copy of N&S and/or Mystic China.
2. Read Creating Martial Art Styles
3. Use Martial Art Style Generator

[Sentinel]

See, I would much prefer that this:

2. Read Creating Martial Art Styles

And this:

3. Use Martial Art Style Generator

Were in this:

a copy of N&S and/or Mystic China.

[Guest]

See, I would much prefer that this:

2. Read Creating Martial Art Styles

And this:

3. Use Martial Art Style Generator

Were in this:

a copy of N&S and/or Mystic China.

Yeah, I'm going to put 90 pages of material into N&S itself...NOT!

[Sentinel]

See, I would much prefer that this:

2. Read Creating Martial Art Styles

And this:

3. Use Martial Art Style Generator

Were in this:

a copy of N&S and/or Mystic China.

Yeah, I'm going to put 90 pages of material into N&S itself...NOT!

Why not?
I'd buy a thick book if it were good.
Why shouldn't N&SS be as big a main book as PFRPG, or HU, or BtS?

[Guest]

See, I would much prefer that this:

2. Read Creating Martial Art Styles

And this:

3. Use Martial Art Style Generator

Were in this:

a copy of N&S and/or Mystic China.

Yeah, I'm going to put 90 pages of material into N&S itself...NOT!

Why not?
I'd buy a thick book if it were good.
Why shouldn't N&SS be as big a main book as PFRPG, or HU, or BtS?

Because, as you'll recall, I'm still trying to trim the 979 pages down to something HU or PF sized.

[Sentinel]

See, I would much prefer that this:

2. Read Creating Martial Art Styles

And this:

3. Use Martial Art Style Generator

Were in this:

a copy of N&S and/or Mystic China.

Yeah, I'm going to put 90 pages of material into N&S itself...NOT!

Why not?
I'd buy a thick book if it were good.
Why shouldn't N&SS be as big a main book as PFRPG, or HU, or BtS?

Because, as you'll recall, I'm still trying to trim the 979 pages down to something HU or PF sized.

Maybe the 1000 Page Main Book could be the start of a new trend for Palladium.

[Library Ogre]

Originally posted by MrNexx.
Simple answer: Take all the moves of two martial arts. Cut all the bonuses in half, and add them together. That's your new style. Only someone who has studied these two styles will have the same abilities... if you teach this style, you have to pair it down a bit, or have a huge training time.

Actually it'd be
1.) Total all the moves in both styles.
2.) Total all the bonuses in both styles.
3.) Total all the Martial Arts Powers in both styles.
4.) Total the time cost of both styles.
5.) Halve all the above and round down.

How do you do half of an automatic joint lock?

[Sentinel]

How do you do half of an automatic joint lock?

Maybe the same way you do Automatic Dodge in N&SS?

[SoulofThunder]

i think combing techniques from styles makes sense from a RL and game stand point.

people "borrow " techniques from other arts all the time. i dont thinking extra bonuses should flow about from art to art , but techniques ( certain punches , kicks , grapples, body flips/throws , etc) could be interchanable.

i gotta say i always had a small issue with the "using one art at a time" rule . if you know a technique , you should be able to use it anytime you have the oppurtunity.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by MrNexx.
Simple answer: Take all the moves of two martial arts. Cut all the bonuses in half, and add them together. That's your new style. Only someone who has studied these two styles will have the same abilities... if you teach this style, you have to pair it down a bit, or have a huge training time.

Originally posted by me.
Actually it'd be
1.) Total all the moves in both styles.
2.) Total all the bonuses in both styles.
3.) Total all the Martial Arts Powers in both styles.
4.) Total the time cost of both styles.
5.) Halve all the above and round down.

Originally posted by MrNexx.
How do you do half of an automatic joint lock?

Actually that should be "1.) Total the number of moves in both styles." After you've rounded the amount down, you select between moves in both styles until you hit your new total.

[Sentinel]

What is it you want a style to encompass, that you aren't finding in any one style?
Presumably, if you feel the need to combine two styles, then any single one must not have what it is you're looking for.

[Sentinel]

What is it you want a style to encompass, that you aren't finding in any one style?
Presumably, if you feel the need to combine two styles, then any single one must not have what it is you're looking for.

For me its just silly that if I know Jujitsu and say TDK that I would have to pick from round to round what use. I think it takes away from DMA. I mean truely what the DMA gives up to get 2 styles to not even really be able to use them the way a person with 2 styles would just is kind of sad. I also have a hard time suspending the belife that a dedicated martial artist is not going to use what ever skill is ideal for him at that perticular time. Round starts charater thinks TDK may be the best way to go but mid round relises grabing this guy is a better idea shouldn't have to wait till the next round to change his mind.

I see your point, but when I felt the need to do that, I just chose a style like Tang Su (kicks, punches, and moves like Grab/Kick and Grab/Head-Bash) for that composite style feeling. Sankukai was also a good one for that. Shaolin was a good style with options, as was WuShu Tsung.
Having to choose made me carefully consider which style I was going to select based on what I wanted my character to fight like.

[Yendor]

I agree Goodlun. As for what I don't find in a Martial Art, is just the fact it doesn't sit well with my mind that you know 2 styles, equivalent of black belt in each, but only use one at a time? There's probably been RL examples where a martial artist, knowing 2 different styles, switches in mid-attack for one reason ro another.

[Sentinel]

It is an in-built mechanism to the game however to keep the styles separate, or else the Bonuses will get way out of control and fast.
You'll start to see people taking styles just to add the bonuses to strike to the most damaging attacks simply because if they can switch one style to another, then why not stack the bonuses as well?

I see the point that everyone is amking: I often combine elements of the various styles I've studied, whether it be the kicks of Karate, Tae Kwon Do and Savate, or the punches of Wing Chun and Shotokan Karate.
The mechanics of the game however simply do not encompass this sort of composition outside of choosing a composite style.

However: there are several Martial Arts powers that one can transfer from one style to another. All Body Hardenings are cumulative, and if you choose Kanshu or Chagi, then you will get to enjoy those benefits no matter which of your two styles you are using. Likewise with several of the Martial Arts Techniques.

[Sentinel]

Right I totally agree that you couldn't go around combinging bonus like crazy. I have to agree just cause I know two differant styles my ability to hit someone isn't nessicarly going to be twice as good(although I would suspect it would be slightly better do to the greater number of options). Same thing with Parries, # of attacks and what not. I would think though a game mechanic could be introduced to reflect this such as just using the highest bonus in each catagory and having all the moves. I also think that this would make the DMA a really worth while class since it really is the only one that can take 2 styles.

I think one of the things that would help make the DMA more worthwhile would be to make Exclusive Martial Arts better overall.
Some, like Ninjutsu are fine as they are, and offer good maneuvers, weapon skills, and other skills, as well as a good selection of Martial Arts powers, but others like Thai Kickboxing need to be improved (TKB isn't any better than Tae Kwon Do, which is not exclusive).
At the same time though, I hesistate to make the DMA too much like the Heroes Unlimited Ancient Master (if you have HUII, take a look at the AM character).
Since only the DMA is supposed to be able to select Exclusive styles at the cost of having only two secondary skills to start with, then their big perk ought to be better styles to select from. Particularly since they give up selecting two styles to only selecting one Exclusive style.

[Guest]

Right I totally agree that you couldn't go around combinging bonus like crazy. I have to agree just cause I know two differant styles my ability to hit someone isn't nessicarly going to be twice as good(although I would suspect it would be slightly better do to the greater number of options). Same thing with Parries, # of attacks and what not. I would think though a game mechanic could be introduced to reflect this such as just using the highest bonus in each catagory and having all the moves. I also think that this would make the DMA a really worth while class since it really is the only one that can take 2 styles.

I think one of the things that would help make the DMA more worthwhile would be to make Exclusive Martial Arts better overall.
Some, like Ninjutsu are fine as they are, and offer good maneuvers, weapon skills, and other skills, as well as a good selection of Martial Arts powers, but others like Thai Kickboxing need to be improved (TKB isn't any better than Tae Kwon Do, which is not exclusive).
At the same time though, I hesistate to make the DMA too much like the Heroes Unlimited Ancient Master (if you have HUII, take a look at the AM character).
Since only the DMA is supposed to be able to select Exclusive styles at the cost of having only two secondary skills to start with, then their big perk ought to be better styles to select from. Particularly since they give up selecting two styles to only selecting one Exclusive style.

I went with a slight modification myself. DMAs select three non-exclusive styles or and exclusive style and a non-exclusive style. WMAs can select an exclusive style or two non-exclusives (it made no sense to me that the "Martial Artist" classes in N&S had no real abilities compared to espionage agents, mercs, or gizmoteers).

[Sentinel]

Along that line of thought, I'd like to see more HtH Style Martial Arts, similar to the ones in Rifts Japan for non-martial arts OCCs.
I can agree with an Espionage Agent getting Tae Kwon Do: he doesn't need the Martial Arts Powers that come with the full style though.

[Guest]

Right I totally agree that you couldn't go around combinging bonus like crazy. I have to agree just cause I know two differant styles my ability to hit someone isn't nessicarly going to be twice as good(although I would suspect it would be slightly better do to the greater number of options). Same thing with Parries, # of attacks and what not. I would think though a game mechanic could be introduced to reflect this such as just using the highest bonus in each catagory and having all the moves. I also think that this would make the DMA a really worth while class since it really is the only one that can take 2 styles.

I think one of the things that would help make the DMA more worthwhile would be to make Exclusive Martial Arts better overall.
Some, like Ninjutsu are fine as they are, and offer good maneuvers, weapon skills, and other skills, as well as a good selection of Martial Arts powers, but others like Thai Kickboxing need to be improved (TKB isn't any better than Tae Kwon Do, which is not exclusive).
At the same time though, I hesistate to make the DMA too much like the Heroes Unlimited Ancient Master (if you have HUII, take a look at the AM character).
Since only the DMA is supposed to be able to select Exclusive styles at the cost of having only two secondary skills to start with, then their big perk ought to be better styles to select from. Particularly since they give up selecting two styles to only selecting one Exclusive style.

I went with a slight modification myself. DMAs select three non-exclusive styles or and exclusive style and a non-exclusive style. WMAs can select an exclusive style or two non-exclusives (it made no sense to me that the "Martial Artist" classes in N&S had no real abilities compared to espionage agents, mercs, or gizmoteers).

How well does taking say one style to fight with, one style to load up on M/A powers, and one style to devolpe chi(which in my esitmation probally be the most "powerful" way of going about things) balance out vs say a Veterun Grunt with Drunken Style?

Two reasons, given your example. One, the Veteran Grunt has 5 skill programs and 10 secondary skills. Two, Drunken Style is one of the most loaded styles in the game (and Exclusive in my games).

[Mantisking]

While personally I don't firmly agree or disagree with the premise of mix-and-match martial arts*, I will point out that largely this is not what Wujcik had in mind when he designed the system. On pg. 6, he talks about this (emphasis his).

What I gleaned from all thisa was a sense of the differences in the various forms. Contrary to popular opinion, the various styles have almost nothing in common. Neither movements, training techniques or even philosophies. Their various strengths and weaknesses have always fascinated me.

Personally, I think he's a little bit wrong. There's only so many ways a human body can move. Eventually one style is going to look like another. And if you dig deep enough there are styles that are similar. Southern Dragon and Bak Mei kung fu look similar. Isshin Ryu and Goju Ryu both share the Sanchin Kata as a pivotal training tool. Etcetera, etcetera. Erick had access to an amazing amount of research material -- I'm still wondering where he got information on certain styles -- but he barely scratched the surface. In the 18 years since the game first came out a lot has changed with regards to the martial arts world.