Zanji Shinjinken Ryu & Weapon Kata

[Guest]

There you go then, it's either a typo or a holdover from an earlier version of the rules badly edited in...

(And that's how you accept making a wrong statement - graciously... thbt ^_- )

It still took me two or three read-throughs to come to the conclusion that Zanji masters don't get to use actual steel swords until 3rd level mind you, and I'm not sure now that I'm right on that one, so a certain measure of confusion is understandable.

I used to think the same thing until someone on the N&SS forum mentioned that it could mean the Zanji artist at level 1 can choose to have W.P. Daisho at 3rd level strength or W.P. Katana at 4th level strength. I figure this must be the right interpretation, because it really makes no sense to give someone W.P. Daisho when they reach 3rd level and then giving them only W.P. Katana (which should be included in Daisho) one level later.

If that was the case, Erick would have used the same format of increased W.P. levels that he did for Isshin Ryu and Wui Wing Chun. Though I agree that the use of W.P. Paired and it's variants without giving W.P.s for the actual weapons doesn't make much sense (as is the case with Te (depending on which Weapon Kata you select)).

[Guest]

If that was the case, Erick would have used the same format of increased W.P. levels that he did for Isshin Ryu and Wui Wing Chun. Though I agree that the use of W.P. Paired and it's variants without giving W.P.s for the actual weapons doesn't make much sense (as is the case with Te (depending on which Weapon Kata you select)).

Well, I think that Erick is a bit lest strict about the exact format he follows than you are. Plus, there's plenty about the book that is just plain sloppy.

The main reason I would support the latter interpretation (with getting one or the other at a higher proficiency) is because it makes at least some sense. The idea is you can use the katana and wakizashi paired, or you can use only the katana but at a higher proficiency. Basically there's a trade between skill and flexibility. It certainly isn't a balanced trade (because paired weapons are super good in Palladium), but it is a trade nonetheless.

The other option (assuming we're talking about the same two options; maybe there are other ways to think about it), has the martial artist wait until 3rd level to use katana and wakizashi paired, or he can wait until reaching 4th level to use only the katana. That doesn't even have the vaguest pretense of being balanced. Waiting a whole extra level to gain a weaker weapon kata? That just doesn't make any kind of sense.

BTW, I kind of assumed that he just put in Daisho because it saved space compared to "W.P. Katana and Wakizashi - Paired." It's in the kata section, and katas are supposed to give the full W.P. for the weapons involved. Otherwise, like you said, you get the weirdness of being able to weild two weapons you have no profieciency in as a pair.

Of course, there are things that don't make sense in the book. But I figure, if you have two interpretations, and one makes some sense while the other doesn't make any, may as well go with the one that makes some sense.

The problem with that has already been pointed out, your interpretation doesn't make sense. You're basing your entire argument on the katana being the weaker weapon, but this isn't the case in N&S. Look up the damage of the katana, and compare it to the damage of the daisho. And, as has been pointed out before, it makes no sense that Erick would have given 4th level skill in W.P. Paired, which, like Tamashiwara, doesn't advance in levels (personally, I think he was thinking of Iai-jutsu when he wrote that bit, but Tamashiwara appeared instead).* Beyond that, there's also the remaining martial art styles with weapon kata, none of which, with the wierd exception/non-exception of Moo Gi Gong (which only has two listed, but actually covers all ancient weapons), have more than three weapon kata available from their lists, compared to Zanji's four at first level. Add in the existance of two styles where added levels to W.P.s are clearly worded so there's no confusion, and you just don't have the support for your interpretation.
*Unless of course you're advancing the argument that W.P. Katana and W.P. Wakizashi would be added with 3 W.P. levels just because W.P. Daisho has been selected, in which case, your entire argument about "balance" goes right out the window.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Freefall.
I used to think the same thing until someone on the N&SS forum mentioned that it could mean the Zanji artist at level 1 can choose to have W.P. Daisho at 3rd level strength or W.P. Katana at 4th level strength. I figure this must be the right interpretation, because it really makes no sense to give someone W.P. Daisho when they reach 3rd level and then giving them only W.P. Katana (which should be included in Daisho) one level later.

We usually run with getting W.P. Katana & Wakizashi at 3rd level of skill or W.P. Katana at 4th level of skill at first level.

Originally posted by Kuseru.
The problem with that has already been pointed out, your interpretation doesn't make sense. You're basing your entire argument on the katana being the weaker weapon, but this isn't the case in N&S. Look up the damage of the katana, and compare it to the damage of the daisho. And, as has been pointed out before, it makes no sense that Erick would have given 4th level skill in W.P. Paired, which, like Tamashiwara, doesn't advance in levels (personally, I think he was thinking of Iai-jutsu when he wrote that bit, but Tamashiwara appeared instead).* Beyond that, there's also the remaining martial art styles with weapon kata, none of which, with the wierd exception/non-exception of Moo Gi Gong (which only has two listed, but actually covers all ancient weapons), have more than three weapon kata available from their lists, compared to Zanji's four at first level. Add in the existance of two styles where added levels to W.P.s are clearly worded so there's no confusion, and you just don't have the support for your interpretation.
*Unless of course you're advancing the argument that W.P. Katana and W.P. Wakizashi would be added with 3 W.P. levels just because W.P. Daisho has been selected, in which case, your entire argument about "balance" goes right out the window.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Freefall.
I used to think the same thing until someone on the N&SS forum mentioned that it could mean the Zanji artist at level 1 can choose to have W.P. Daisho at 3rd level strength or W.P. Katana at 4th level strength. I figure this must be the right interpretation, because it really makes no sense to give someone W.P. Daisho when they reach 3rd level and then giving them only W.P. Katana (which should be included in Daisho) one level later.

We usually run with getting W.P. Katana & Wakizashi at 3rd level of skill or W.P. Katana at 4th level of skill at first level.

Originally posted by Kuseru.
The problem with that has already been pointed out, your interpretation doesn't make sense. You're basing your entire argument on the katana being the weaker weapon, but this isn't the case in N&S. Look up the damage of the katana, and compare it to the damage of the daisho. And, as has been pointed out before, it makes no sense that Erick would have given 4th level skill in W.P. Paired, which, like Tamashiwara, doesn't advance in levels (personally, I think he was thinking of Iai-jutsu when he wrote that bit, but Tamashiwara appeared instead).* Beyond that, there's also the remaining martial art styles with weapon kata, none of which, with the wierd exception/non-exception of Moo Gi Gong (which only has two listed, but actually covers all ancient weapons), have more than three weapon kata available from their lists, compared to Zanji's four at first level. Add in the existance of two styles where added levels to W.P.s are clearly worded so there's no confusion, and you just don't have the support for your interpretation.
*Unless of course you're advancing the argument that W.P. Katana and W.P. Wakizashi would be added with 3 W.P. levels just because W.P. Daisho has been selected, in which case, your entire argument about "balance" goes right out the window.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

What's the matter, can't come up with a cohesive argument?

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Kuseru.
What's the matter, can't come up with a cohesive argument?

The thing is, I don't really need one. All your excessive verbiage is getting in the way of what is really important, having fun. There is no "one true way" of N&S, no matter how hard you try to impose your thoughts on these boards. If people are having fun, more power to them.

[Library Ogre]

Originally posted by Kuseru.
What's the matter, can't come up with a cohesive argument?

The thing is, I don't really need one. All your excessive verbiage is getting in the way of what is really important, having fun. There is no "one true way" of N&S, no matter how hard you try to impose your thoughts on these boards. If people are having fun, more power to them.

IOW, yes, you can't come up with a cohesive textual arguement. However, given this is a Palladium book, this isn't necessarily a great flaw... Palladium books are somewhat like the Bible in that, if read properly, they can be made to say almost anything you want them to.

However, we always read it as "You can either have 4th level skill in the katana, or 3rd level skill in the Daisho." We took that to mean that you had trained in a specific way, and could use 3rd level bonuses from the WP Large Sword and WP Short Sword only when you had a Daisho... any other combination of Large and Short Swords wouldn't work within your style.

[Guest]

What the... how did this get in here? I was wondering what happened to the Q&A forum. Oh well.

The problem with that has already been pointed out, your interpretation doesn't make sense. You're basing your entire argument on the katana being the weaker weapon, but this isn't the case in N&S. Look up the damage of the katana, and compare it to the damage of the daisho.

Hm, that was something I forgot about. Since the Daisho is stated to be a Katana and Wakizashi pair, I always figured the different damages listed were one of various inconsistencies in the Palladium system and always just used the normal katana and wakizashi damages.

I originally assumed that as well, until I noticed that the Daisho katana damage listing is the same as that for a Long Sword or Bastard Sword, which would make sense, since it could only be weilded one-handed as part of the Daisho (of course this doesn't explain the lower damage of the Wakizashi as part of the Daisho).

Assuming that they are deliberately lower, then a high quality katana does more damage than a katana in a Daisho set (which doesn't have the option of being high quality for whatever reason). However, it's not much of a difference. A top quality Katana does minimum 3 damage, maximum 18, average 10.5. A Daisho, between the two blades, does minimum 4, max 16, average 10. The average damages are only different by half a point. The Katana has can inflict slightly more damage tops, but is much less likely to actually roll it. Still, if that's what Erick was looking at, then without checking the math (which seems to never happen in Palladium books), that might have seemed like a trade-off, assuming Daisho really are supposed to be weaker.

Actually, the damages are only similar if BOTH weapons used in the Daisho hit, not a guaranteed situation, for a wide variety of reasons. Though, you're right about Palladium not checking the math, so that's very possible as well.

And, as has been pointed out before, it makes no sense that Erick would have given 4th level skill in W.P. Paired, which, like Tamashiwara, doesn't advance in levels (personally, I think he was thinking of Iai-jutsu when he wrote that bit, but Tamashiwara appeared instead).*

Like I mentioned before, I figured (same as Nexx from the looks of it), that he just used the term Daisho as a concise way of W.P. Katana and W.P. Wakizashi, and that they could be used paired. I also said this could be somewhat supported from the description for weapon katas, which provide full proficiency in the weapons involved in the kata.

Ah, you missed the point entirely. The Weapon Kata for Daisho, ONLY applies to using a Katana and Wakizashi together, it doesn't provide the W.P. or W.K. for the Katana or Wakizashi themselves. You'd need TWO more Weapon Kata for that to be the case, which it isn't. As was pointed out with the mention of Te, though it also applies to many other styles.
Sample #1: Chi Hsuan Men: Weapon Kata for BOTH W.P. White Jade Fan AND W.P. White Jade Fan Paired (specific wording for the Weapon Kata is different in the books, however the point remains the same).
Sample #2: Choy Li Fut KF: Weapon Kata for W.P. Pa Kua Lance and W.P. "Eighteen" Staff, both individual W.P.s, AND W.P. for W.P. Short Sword: Willow Leaf Double Swords -- Paired.
Sample #3: Hwarang Do: Weapon Kata available for selection include W.P. Short Stick, W.P. Spear, W.P. Sword, and W.P. Knives -- Paired.
Sample #4: Moo Gi Gong: Weapon Kata for "All Ancient Weapons" AND Weapon Kata for "All Paired Weapons".*
Sample #5: Te: Weapon Kata available: Bo Staff, Sai -- Paired, Nunchaku -- Paired, Paired Weapons.
Sample #6 Wui Wing Chun: Weapon Kata: Knives -- Paired, Bo Staff.**
Sample #7 Wu Shu T'sung: Weapon Kata available include Spears, cudgels, scimitars, broadswords, daggers, swords (Paired), broadswords (Paired), hooks (Paired), whips (Paired), sword plus whip (Paired), nine-section whips, three sectional staffs, meteor hammers, rope darts.***
And of course there's Zanji. Several other styles offer initial Weapon Kata, but I only chose the samples which had Paired Weapons available in some form.
*MGG's "W.P. For All Paired Weapons," along with the various specific paired weapon kata seen results in the common misconception that N&S (like HU2) requires you to select W.P. Paired Weapons for each combination of weapons you want to use the skill with.
**Ironically, though WWC has it's main Weapon Kata for Bo Staff, it's bizarre LAB adds 4 levels to W.P. Naginata, a skill the style doesn't (and shouldn't considering it's a faux-Chinese style and the Naginata [not a spear despite repeated PB claims] is a Japanese weapon [The "Bo Staff" should be treated as a generic staff, or specific type of Chinese staff instead]).
***It's unfortunate that, like Choy Li Fut, so many of these weapons don't have actual stats in N&S (or Mystic China either for several of them).

Anyway, the point of all these samples is simple, there are enough styles out there that have access to the Paired Weapons version and the individual weapon W.P. that ZSR's W.P. Daisho can NOT be treated as providing any other skills.

Beyond that, there's also the remaining martial art styles with weapon kata, none of which, with the wierd exception/non-exception of Moo Gi Gong (which only has two listed, but actually covers all ancient weapons), have more than three weapon kata available from their lists, compared to Zanji's four at first level.

Um, so? And I thought Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi did, but you might be discounting Mystic China forms.

Exactly, I'm not worried about the MC stuff because there are several differences in the styles themselves between those two books.

Even so, there is no rule that a style can only have X number of weapon forms.

Well actually, there is, it's called "Martial Art Power" limitations.

Zanji happens to have the most at first level.

Only in a rough sense, discounting the bizarre approach to Weapon Kata that Moo Gi Gong has.

It's bound to happen to one form or another. Ninjitsu starts with what, 6 martial art powers, not including a few weapon katas, plus tons of skills.

4 MAPs, as of the revised edition.

Monkey style gets how many different maneuvers without even being "Exclusive"? Sorry, but I don't think that's a very strong point.

You can find the entire N&S style comparison here. And yes, taken overall, there is a very strong point.

Add in the existance of two styles where added levels to W.P.s are clearly worded so there's no confusion, and you just don't have the support for your interpretation.

So your point here is that N&SS is strongly self-consistent for the most part? I know you don't believe that. How about that one style (I think it's Te, the one that offers W.P. Nunchaku and W.P. Sai) that has no entry whatsoever for Advanced Defenses? Just about every other form has an entry, even if it is "none." And doesn't Wing Chun have the odd "Add 2 levels to W.P. Naginata" or something, even though it doesn't provide the W.P. in the first place? Sorry, but all this means to me is that he got a little sloppy writing that part (happens in plenty of spots in the book). He could have certainly been clearer, or just put it into the level advancement bonuses. In fact, I think that it is even more clear with all the styles that have a "Weapon Kata" entry that all of the entries are katas available at first level. Is there another example of a martial art that puts a weapon in the "Weapon Kata" line but includes the caveat that it isn't available until a certain level? If not, then this point doesn't help you at all, because it can go both ways.

Very good, a nice solid, cohesive argument. Now we're getting somewhere. Sloppiness (not too mention the standard lack of editing) could indeed explain why it isn't the case for ZSR, but though there are several sloppy areas to the book, it doesn't explain why we see similiarities in wording for roughly 90% of the stats in the styles. Nor does it explain why the note explicitly states all the other weapon kata for ZSR are taken at first level. A note that would be moot if the interpretation you were proposing was the case, since no other style makes such a mention of the Weapon Kata being taken at first level. Which of course brings up the final point, the wording of that last bit of the note "taken at first level," not "at first level skill." What an interesting way to phrase that, don't you think? Since it indicates you get those weapon kata at first level, not that they're first level skill (generally a given case since only the revised HU Ancient Master had a higher starting level for martial art styles...which again defeats your interpretation, because then, none of the Weapon Kata in question would be at the level of skill indicated in the note, whereas the "Add # levels to W.P. X" isn't affected by using the Ancient Master).

*Unless of course you're advancing the argument that W.P. Katana and W.P. Wakizashi would be added with 3 W.P. levels just because W.P. Daisho has been selected, in which case, your entire argument about "balance" goes right out the window.

For such a stickler for details, you certainly missed something. I specifically said that the tradeoff wasn't balanced, just that it at least looked like a tradeoff. A difference of only one level in skill isn't close to enough to offset the bonuses of getting Paired weapons, especially since there are no bonuses for using a weapon two-handed in Palladium (that I'm aware of).

Ah, but your argument isn't one level in skill, it's one skill to THREE skills, with one level of difference seperating that lone skill selection. So no, that isn't a balanced tradeoff.

However, I think that superficially it would appear at least as much of a tradeoff, if not more, than the idea that the Katana does so much more damage than the Daisho pair that you need to wait a whole extra level if you want just the Katana instead.

Actually, I don't see it so much as a trade off itself, as a style peculiarity, pretty much summed up by Korentin_Black earlier; they're not ready for 'live' blades until they advance in level and the difference in selection is a sub-style preference (one sword vs two sword usage).

And then there's just the flavor issue. Zanji is basically what we get in N&SS for making a Samurai.

Unfortunately true, and one of the reasons I no longer use Zanji in my games (of course having several kenjutsu styles, I no longer really need it either).

The idea of needing to make your Samurai wait until 4th level to use a real Katana seems quite odd (especially when he could be using one at 3rd level, so why wait?).

Better ability with the sword by applying himself soley to one weapon of course. Of course, there is individual preference as well.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Originally posted by Kuseru.
What's the matter, can't come up with a cohesive argument?

The thing is, I don't really need one. All your excessive verbiage is getting in the way of what is really important, having fun. There is no "one true way" of N&S, no matter how hard you try to impose your thoughts on these boards. If people are having fun, more power to them.

ask a question about rules, get an answer about rules.

Kuseru is in favor of having fun over using the rules as they are written, as can be seen by his MASSIVE amount of houserules.

but all the houserules and fun on the planet don't change offical rules, which are what is being discussed.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by MrNexx.
IOW, yes, you can't come up with a cohesive textual arguement. However, given this is a Palladium book, this isn't necessarily a great flaw... Palladium books are somewhat like the Bible in that, if read properly, they can be made to say almost anything you want them to.

Sigh. You want a cohesive textual argument? How about this?

It makes no sense for it to be interpreted as the character learns to use the Daisho at 3rd level and the Katana at 4th. You don't teach someone to use a paired set of weapons and then teach him to use one of those weapons by itself afterwards. You teach the individual weapons first, then the paired. To do it the other way would involve having to unlearn muscle memory.

[Guest]

Originally posted by MrNexx.
IOW, yes, you can't come up with a cohesive textual arguement. However, given this is a Palladium book, this isn't necessarily a great flaw... Palladium books are somewhat like the Bible in that, if read properly, they can be made to say almost anything you want them to.

Sigh. You want a cohesive textual argument? How about this?

It makes no sense for it to be interpreted as the character learns to use the Daisho at 3rd level and the Katana at 4th. You don't teach someone to use a paired set of weapons and then teach him to use one of those weapons by itself afterwards. You teach the individual weapons first, then the paired. To do it the other way would involve having to unlearn muscle memory.

That's not the case for ZSR though, it says Katana or Wakizashi at 4th level, or Daisho at 3rd level. That's not an "and" situation.

[Guest]

I was going to keep arguing with you, Kuseru, but then I started thinking that you might be arguing which interpretation is more technically correct than which is better, and if that's the case, I think I'd have to agree with you. As you pointed out, just the grammar of the sentence suggests obtaining the skills at a certain level, rather than starting with them at a higher level of proficiency. Like I mentioned before, that was also what I had always figured it was saying until someone on the boards mentioned an alternative, which appealed to me because the nature of the choice presented just seemed rather backwards to me. The version I've been arguing for is something that I think is reasonable enough to try running past the GM, and is nice if you want your samurai to actually be able to use a metal sword at level 1 (considering that it takes what, 10-12 years of training to reach level 1, I think they should be ready by then).

Like I said, it's one of the reasons I no longer use Zanji in my games. Of course, having 15 Japanese sword styles to choose from is another big reason.

Of course, if it were up to me weapons weilded two-handed would add 1.5 times your strength bonus (and bonuses would start with an attribute of 12, so you're more likely to have one), and I'd do something to tone down paired weapons a little, and maybe even then have katana start at level 5. Then it would be a bit more balanced.

I go with a higher die of damage myself, but that's a personal preference issue.

This isn't about house rules though, so I concede the point.

Now if we were discussing house rules, the topic would be MUCH longer.

[Guest]

"Look up the damage of the katana, and compare it to the damage of the daisho."
I've been playing too much TMNT. The katana does expressly less damage when used as a paired weapon... I can kinda see it, but that's just odd. Especially since there's no express statement on the matter.
Oddly, that also puts it at slightly more minimum damage. However, it averages .5 less damage than an ordinary quality katana alone, except that the wakizashi deals another 3.5...
This is really weird.

So one of the statements made is that "the others" excludes the two WP's not selected; in other words, if you choose WK Katana, you completely lose out on Wakizashi and Daisho?
Curious. I'll consider that.

I seem to recall reading, somewhere in some other Palladium game book, that wielding a weapon two-handed gives a straight +2 damage bonus. Anybody know what I'm talking about?

That said, I have a counterargument. Weapon Katas are a Martial Art Power. Tien Hsueh gains Dim Mak, a Martial Art Power, at second level; this is expressly stated in the levelling scheme of Tien Hsueh. If Wujcik had intended to have these WKatas be learned at a later level, he'd have specifically placed the WKatas in the level itself. There's plenty of room on the Zanji levelling table to do this.

As previously pointed out, there's no support for this.

[atkindave]

Hang on a second. I thought it was katana at level 4 proficiency at character level one, or daisho (as in katana and wakizashi) at 3rd level proficiency at character level 1.

Or am I just nuts?

[Colt47]

I swear, Zanji Shinjinken is just a hornets basket waiting for people to start arguing over the weapon katas.

[atkindave]

This is the nature of the argument. The language involved is more than a touch odd; read over it again and you'll see what we mean.
Once you've taken another quick glance, it might pay to reread the thread.

OK, busted (I am usually much less sloppy than this). I did what you said. While I admit the language is a little fuzzy, it is only because I was specifically looking for fuzzy this time.

Considering that this is supposed to be the samurai martial art in N&S, (I don't think another even mentions Katana). And that even a 1st level character is supposed to be a master-level combatant (6-20 years of study, depending on the style. This is at least "black belt" level.) in N&S. And, in addition, that the daisho at third versus katana at fourth makes a bit more sense if speaking of proficiency level (at first experience level) rather than experience level for which the first-level proficiency is gained, I would go with the proficiency rather than wait until X level.

Why don't we just ask Erick? Did anyone ask him this before?

[atkindave]

Hmm. That is interesting.

I never gave that much thought either. I basically just ignored it, thinking that it had to do with the quality of the weapons (2d6 for "regular" katana vs 3d6 for "high quality" katana etc.) Any character worth their salt had a Katana and a Wakizashi, and treated as such even when a matched set. Not a generic bigsmall. 1d8+2 is almost the same as 2d6 (avg 6.5 vs 7). Is this a reprint from another work? Something from PFRPG, where 1d8+2 is more in line, or only somewhat superior, to other medium sized swords listed? (I've only got the basic PFRPG, not any expansions that would include oriental type equipment).

[atkindave]

Hmm. I could pick the dedicated martial artist, take ninjutsu, and get 2 secondary skills.

Or I could take the physical training category guy and get ninjustsu plus a bunch of physical bonuses and abilities/powers (-40hp!) and a decent selction of skills.

OK, Dedicated martial artists offically have an "I am nerfed, please kick my butt" sign plastered to their backs.