Urban Combat paper...

[Braden Campbell]

Ok...

I'm putting Space Pirates on hold to work on Urban Combat in the Three Galaxies. I hope to have some rough rules in place to try out at Open House. So far, the article would cover/include:
_________________________________________________________

Why combat almost never happens on the Core Worlds, but rather out in the colonies...

The problems of fighting in "close quarters"...

Rule modifications for Urban Fighting (covering fire, taking the high ground, using cover)...

Scanners vs Spoofers....

Gear for City Fighting (scanners, grenades, flares, light armour, robot sentry guns, breeching charges, and carbines)


Sound good?

[Jefffar]

So Warpath Urban Jungle - the 3 Galaxies Edition?

I'd be interested to see what you come up with, though I'll probably critique pretty heavily.

[Braden Campbell]

I have some things in mind that are about as real as anything else you're likely to find in a space opera setting.

It would be more like playing in Medal of Honor, than it would be actually storming the beach at Normandy. I realized a while ago that you will never get true realism in a game... just the illusion of realism.

So take it in the spirit in which it is intended. Please.

[Marrowlight]

I have some things in mind that are about as real as anything else you're likely to find in a space opera setting.

It would be more like playing in Medal of Honor, than it would be actually storming the beach at Normandy. I realized a while ago that you will never get true realism in a game... just the illusion of realism.

So take it in the spirit in which it is intended. Please.

You could always go with realism and install one shot/one hit/one kill scenarios and strip away most MDC and personal SDC.....but I suspect a lot of gamers would get upset.

[Jefffar]

I do make certain concession to fun of game play - but I like the strange idea of anti-tank weapons that can kill tanks and small arms that can't.

[Braden Campbell]

If I thought they would get published, I's submit the QiR Armour Pen rules to the Rifter.

We use them in our current Phase World games, and it makes a big difference (exactly what you describe). Next time your in Toronto, let me now, and you can join us.

[Jefffar]

Not too familiar with those ones, can you summerize - without a copyright vilation of course?

[Braden Campbell]

I'll send a little something your way.

[Jefffar]

Why not have rules for combat in different planetary gravities? Bonuses and penalties, side effects and symptoms. It'll be interesting just for explorers to feel the effects of a strange planet's gravity.

I did something like that a while ago, never put it on paper though.

I had a few different bands:

A was 0 to 0.25 G

B was 0.26 to 0.5 G

C was 0.51 to 0.75 G

D was 0.76 to 1.25 G

E was 1.26 to 2 G

F was 2.01 to 3 G

G was 3.01 to 5 G

H was over 5 G

Basically as you went down the scale from your home range to lower G your effective strength, speed and endurance increased - however your co-ordiation was off - resulting in penalties to attack.

As you went up your effective strength speed and endurance decreased resulting in fatigue penaties. Your co-ordination was off too resulting in combat penalties.

The more steps you went, the greater the penalties became.

In short, you wanted to operate in your primary gravity band or as close to it.

Now after a while in each gravity band you would acclimate (I think I made it 1 day for the first band, 1 week for the second band, 1 month each additional band) and you would negate the penalties due to reduced co-ordination. It required several years to acclimite the speed, strength and endurance - and this happeend even if you didn't want it to, so a heavy worlder comign to a microgravity world would be unbeleivably strong for a while - but slowly his strength would decrease to match that of the locals.

[Greyaxe]

This set of rules Braden is applying will require players to cooperate in combat develop strategies based on terrain and objects in the combat environment. I am looking forward to playing the new rules at the open house.

[Braden Campbell]

That's the goal...

Still need to worked on a bit, though. Right now it's a little too impossible to hit someone who's hiding in cover (or behind a burnt-out car, or in a building)...

but you can keep them pinned by forcing them to keep their heads down (making a dodge roll to stay safely in cover); so they can't really move or do anything. Pinning an opponent for an entire melee round gives them a negative to initiative next round.

[Braden Campbell]

OK... researching possible rule modifications for tanks and giant robots. Basically, you don't want to take them into a city environment, at least not when there is an entrenched enemy. It's just too damn easy for small teams of two guys with an anti-tank missile launcher to blow you up.

Especially when you consider (and I've just finished check all the Rifts books to be sure) that power armour, tanks, and robots have no sensors that can detect ground level, man-sized targets! Not one.

Tanks and Robots would be deployed en mass at the beginning of an urban blitzkrieg (right after orbital/ariel bombardment or long-range artillery barrage), before anyone had time to dig in, mousehole, and fortify. But taking them into a city fight any time afterwards is death.

Returning us once again to small squads of soldiers/freedom fighters on foot, with carbines, accurate scanners, and personal body armour.


Cool.

[Jefffar]

Tanks, armoured fighting vehicles and to a slightly lesser extent, robots, wil have increased vulnerability in an urban combat situation, that is for sure.

However, so does everything else, and they do bring usefull heavy firepower for dealing with enemy strong points. They are also still more or less impervious to anti-personel weapons and provide excellent mobile cover for dismounted infantry.

Even with the horrific losses their armoured forces took in the battles in Chechen cities, the Russians continued to deploy tanks into the cities for the simple reasons that the looses amoung their infantry would have been muich worse. The US Army has decided the most effective vehicle they have for urban combat in Iraq is the M1 Battle Tank for the very reasons I described above.

The difference in Urban combat is that the armour is sent in as smaller groups as large vehicle groups can easily get bottlenecked during an ambush. Large vehicle groups are only used for convoy escorts or the occasional rapid sweep through a hostile area.

[Greyaxe]

OK... researching possible rule modifications for tanks and giant robots. Basically, you don't want to take them into a city environment, at least not when there is an entrenched enemy. It's just too damn easy for small teams of two guys with an anti-tank missile launcher to blow you up.

Especially when you consider (and I've just finished check all the Rifts books to be sure) that power armour, tanks, and robots have no sensors that can detect ground level, man-sized targets! Not one.

Tanks and Robots would be deployed en mass at the beginning of an urban blitzkrieg (right after orbital/ariel bombardment or long-range artillery barrage), before anyone had time to dig in, mousehole, and fortify. But taking them into a city fight any time afterwards is death.

Returning us once again to small squads of soldiers/freedom fighters on foot, with carbines, accurate scanners, and personal body armour.


Cool.

And force fields Don't forget the force fields.

[Shorty Lickens]

Having played Twilight 2000 I can honestly say I dont want to run an accurate combat system and I dont feel like making things too complicated. Even if it does enhance the realism.

I keep thinging of Rifts as a place of high adventure and fantasy (especially the 3 galaxies). I'd just as soon stick to that and ignore reality.

I also did a little field training and CQT when I was with security in the Navy. Too many things to worry about in a gaming system.

Having played games like SWAT and Splinter Cell, I think I'd rather a computer did all the work for me in real-time.

[Jefffar]

Now, just one little thought for you to ponder, Braden. In urban warfares, building tend to get the bulk of stray or mis-fires, what kind of damage would a falling building do to the MDC tanks and armoured troops in its area of effect. It's just doesn't make sense to have the whole building (especially skyscrapers in advanced society) crush down on a MDC tank and the tank just rolled out of the rubbles suffering minmal damages.

Well, seeing as there was a demolition company after WW2 that used converted Sherman tanks to demolish buildings from the inside, I doubt the structural integrety of the tank will be affected by all but the largest loads fallign from the highest differences.

But rolling out afterwards is another matter.

[Jefffar]

No, they brought the Shermans back to the US and knocked down perfectly fine structures.

All they did to the shermans before hand was take off the turret and weld over the turret ring.

[Jefffar]

I jsut wish I could find a link ot he footage I saw. Looked liek the driver was having fun bringing down a warehouse on top of himeslf.

Though an end on hit from an I-beam form about 60 stories up would definitely have ruined his day, I agree.

But a Sherman has about 5 to 10% of the armour thickness of an M1 Abrahams, so I can only imagine the havoc one of those could get into and out of.

[Jefffar]

I'd say if it got itself burried it's quite likely it will be unable to get itself out.

But crush or armour penetration won't happen until you see a big, solid chunk falling from a great height hitting the top square on.

[Jefffar]

Unfortunately there are 2 ways to fight a battle in a city.

One way is the current Americna/Israeli doctrine of lighting fast siezures of key strong points and precise fire against hostiles.

The other way is the current Russian philosphy of massed armour and artillery.

Both will produce a large ammount of civillian casualties and property damage, though the Russian method even more so.

[Braden Campbell]

Unfortunately there are 2 ways to fight a battle in a city.

One way is the current Americna/Israeli doctrine of lighting fast siezures of key strong points and precise fire against hostiles.

This is the Consortium way of fighting as well: sending in small units of men, and special forces teams in Silverhawk power armour. This is also how the Free Worlds Council has to fight, since they are so vastly outnumbered by their opponents (and are being trained by operatives from the Consortium).

The other way is the current Russian philosphy of massed armour and artillery.

This is the method used by the Transgalactic Empire... why else do they need a tank with 3000 MDC that is able to knock buildings over and is all but impervious to anti-tank missiles?

Both will produce a large ammount of civillian casualties and property damage, though the Russian method even more so.

The kreeghor don't care....

[Jefffar]

I'd say that the Kreeghor don't care, but the occasional Wolfen or Human commander in their forces might.

Perhaps don't care is the wrong term. I suspect it does matter to the Kreeghor, the higher the civillian body count the less likely a populace is to support future rebellion.

Incidentl, before the battle of Grozny, the Russians bombarded the town with leaflets encouraging the populace to leave before the fighting started. There were reports that the rebels gunned down people trying to leave.

[Braden Campbell]

I'd say that the Kreeghor don't care, but the occasional Wolfen or Human commander in their forces might.

That's how the Good Hope Rebellion started.

Ain't no Kreeghor named Michael...

[Jefffar]

Yeap. I mgith not have run a game about it at the open house, but I do know my FWC history.

[Greyaxe]

Unfortunately there are 2 ways to fight a battle in a city.

One way is the current Americna/Israeli doctrine of lighting fast siezures of key strong points and precise fire against hostiles.

The other way is the current Russian philosphy of massed armour and artillery.

Both will produce a large ammount of civillian casualties and property damage, though the Russian method even more so.

They have to it is part of wht Warsaw pact.

[Jefffar]

I'm not talking about WMD strategic strikes. I'm talking about fighting for possession of a city.

Russian MOUT Doctrine is still recognizable from the days of Zhukov

[Jefffar]

Actually it can be ethical - if you are relatively certain that all those within the radius of effect are hostiles or support hostiles.

Which is an assumption that only a species like the kreeghor can make on a regular basis.

However, the Lurker prefers the massive death tinged with pain and suffering and so commands his troops to actually take planets when a nuke from orbit would be much more efficient.

[Braden Campbell]

And if they have, as we suspect, a treaty that states they will not use WMDs within a planetary atmosphere, then the fear of war agaisnt the CCW again is very great.

[Jefffar]

So many levels that we can work this on.

[Greyaxe]

You could also say the Dweller prefers lengthy sustained combat to prolong the suffering and dispair.

[Jefffar]

I thought I allready did?

[Braden Campbell]

UPDATE: the basic rules have been hashed out, and I will be giving them a full test later on. So far, I'm very excited at the prospect of being able to pin guys behind cover, then use flanking attacks to gun them down without mercy!

Also, grenades can now be used to drive occupants out of rooms, which didn't always happen.

[Greyaxe]

Now it seems all the good guys would love to have an evil torturer to kill, makes the job easier, no?

Can we have rules for use of dynamite sticks to bring a building down, Braden?

Actually a set of demolition rules would be handy. Why dont you creat them?

[Jefffar]

Don't forget the Mousholing tactic.

[Braden Campbell]

Don't forget the Mousholing tactic.

?

[Greyaxe]

I think he means "mouse hole" -- whatever that is.

Mouse holing or in WW2 Moleing was a tactic developed by Canadian forces of blowing holes in buildings to travel from building to building to avoid traveling on streets which were monitored by snipers. A very good tactic.

[Braden Campbell]

"Mouseholing"...yes.

I had no clue what you were referring to there, the way it was spelled out...

[Jefffar]

Actually the point is not to open a door - doors are usually booby trapped.

The idea is to blast a hole through a wall where they aren't expecting it.

The expplosive charge has the added effect of clearing the room you just oppened.

[Esckey]

Ya, Canucks and most allies started doing that as well.

[Jefffar]

Then you might as well destabilise and entire room or building, have your enenmy enter thinking you are within, then pull the trigger on a few small charges, and they all come tumbling down.

Interesting historical incident from the Battle of Ortona - where mouseholing was invented.

The Canadians mouseholled their way into the lower floors of a building and cleared them out. However a platoon of Germans had the top half of the building. A particularly popular Canadian soldier had been killed while taking the lower floors and the Canadians were feeling especially beligerant.

So, rather than clean out the upper floors, they placed charges around the lower floors and brought the whole building down.

[Greyaxe]

Yea Canada! Back when our military was truly a force to be reconed with.

[Jefffar]

For about a year we had the 4th largestnavy in the world.

Considering that all the nations with a bigger navy had 5 to 10 times our population at the time, that was pretty damn impressive.

We also turned a profit on each of the World Wars.

[Jefffar]

Don't feel too bad Max . . . from what I understand, you blokes were't in charge of your own defence anyway.

[Jefffar]

King at the time.

They sent us cannucks to defend Hong Kong - even though they know they couldn't defend it from the expected attack.

Managed to hold out a few weeks though.

[Jefffar]

True, but basically a thousand of our boys were put into a hopeless fight for no real good reason.

And then, after HK surrendered, our boys got to spend 4 years in that special kind of hell the Japanese reserved for their POWs.

[Jefffar]

Yeah.

When I explained to my girlfriend what happened in Nanking (she was born in Osaka) she started to cry.

[Jefffar]

A lot of Japanese understand the war as being started by the Americans and British. It's sad really.

I think if the Japanese government aknowledged the terrible tragedy that Japan had committed in the past, then the healing could actually happen before the last survivors are dead.

Germany aknowledge the actions of her wartime government and apologised. She does not face the sort of recriminations for Israel and Russia that Japan faces from Korea and China.

Anyway, we have gotten rather far afield here.

How's the paper Braden?

[Braden Campbell]

Uh... not bad.

So far the basic rules for infantry are down: everyone shoots wild, and there are rules and general MDC values for cover types. You can dodge incoming fire by "diving into cover", which gives you a +2. Once behind cover, you can roll a "dodge to keep your head down": success means you take no damage, but you've burned up an attack and cannot immediately return fire.

Shooters who are elevated can fire their weapons with full aimed bonuses. Anybody flying around (jetpack or power armour) is considered to be out in the open, and can be fired on by everybody else with their full bonuses.

Buildings can now be cleared by grenades. Grenades (and missiles, and BIG mounted weapons) also ignore cover, dealing damage to both the cover and the people hiding behind it (unless they dodge out into the open). So we now have air-bursting grenades and RPG missiles.

The CAF has a wicked sentry gun. Various carbines are outlined. The TGE now has a CG assault rifle with a 200 clip, as well as a 47 lb automatic grenade launcher.

Just getting into vehicles now...

[Jefffar]

Sentry guns, cool.

Don't forget booby traps, mines and other area denial gear.

Edit: LOL, caught in the censor

[Esckey]

And how much damage a section of an MDC wall falling from a 20+ storie building would do to people in BA, PA and to a lesser extent bots and tanks(though the last two would suffer mostly mobilty penilties till they can get on top of the rubble)