Was Holmes' stunt possible?

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm sorry everyone...bi-, er, continue on on. I'm sure the 10,000th time we discuss it a resolution will present itself.

Of course! The 10,000th time is lucky.

[Slag]

I'm sorry everyone...bi-, er, continue on on. I'm sure the 10,000th time we discuss it a resolution will present itself.

Of course! The 10,000th time is lucky.

[Slag]

So you noticed a contradiction and *poof* in a puff of smoke you became PB freelancers?

No *poof*, but we did quickly see an opportunity for our entryway into freelancerdom. We noticed a contradiction (CS Navy vs. Spirit West), noted the obvious conflict in it (CS and Sky Fort too close for comfort), and realized that conflict equaled campaign fodder.

This is not to say it was EASY, because it did take some thinking on why and how these two realistically coexisted as long as they did (102-109 PA), but if you put your mind to it you can find a way in any situation eventually.

In the case of Holmes v. Otherworldly Bugs you might ask youself why did Holmes suceed despite all odds? Did, as one poster suggested, the Queens see a reason to let them live and call off the attack? Perhaps pressure from Lazlo made them not want to instigate a "second front" (they ARE intelligent, if very alien). Did Holmes discover a new, exploitable secret about 'Tix behaviour? Did some other force interfere on his behalf? Answer that question and you may find you have a Rifter article or more.

[grandmaster z0b]

In xiticix Invasion it clearly states that the CS know about Super-Warriors and Queens and that they are clearly far more intelligent than normal Xiticix. The CS got the data from Orion Greefield and CS agents who crept into hives for this info. Furthermore it states that the CS have been very open with this data and have provided it to states like Lazlo in the hope they will use it to kill the Xiticix for them.

Yes, I know... I own the book... what I'm not quite sure is how this relates in any way to what I posted.
I don't mean to be sarcastic with that either, I mean you're obviously trying to make a point about something, and since it was in a post with my previous one attached as a quote I'm even going to assume it was something to do with what I said - I'm just not sure what it is.

My contention is that, Bug War material aside no-one on Rifts Earth knows how they react to more than at most, a few hundred guys in armour with robots /Except/ the Coalition because only the Coalition have been stupid or desperate enough to drive an entire 'friggin army through their back garden.
All other information is based on observation and speculation (often very /good/ observation to be sure) and thus /may/ not apply.

As for Logistics, despite the fact that you're right, don't be damn' silly... this is Rifts, where it's fine for an army to field fifty totally non-intercompatable types of modular armour and vehicles and churn them out in the tens of thousands.
It's all done with nanites. Magic nanites... with little tiny ninjas piloting them.

Oh, and Slag... Tamnaris(sp?) pointed it out as well, just a little while later ^_-

Well, you said there was

There's absolutely no in-character evidence to say that the super-intelligent soldier castes, let alone the mega-super-intelligent queens won't recognise the law of diminishing returns when it comes to prey.

I think I was a little confused by what you were trying to say here, which is why I posted the thing about Orion Greenfield. Xiticix Invasion does state what happens when large groups enter the hivelands, and that seems to me to be as canon as "in-character evidence" if not more canon.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

hell Orion Greenfield is a npc in that book so it must be canon.

[cornholioprime]

hell Orion Greenfield is a npc in that book so it must be canon.

[grandmaster z0b]

Hey, is it possible they could have eaten Xiticix? You know, net a stragler or two, cut him up with vibro-blades, and feast on the sweet protein rich goo within? Or has this already been suggested?

I'm not sure if it has been brought up before, but it's a good point.
However you think that the Xiticix would go crazy if they could smell other Xiticix being hacked up and eaten, I think they would see it as an attack.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i wonder what happened to Holmes's death head transports and did he have a fire storm at his command and did they survive? and if so did one of his officers order the rest to gather what supplies they gather and do air drops ahead of the slow moving army?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I will amend one thing I forgot.

The smoke that Holmes uses doesn't make sense to me. Insect live perfectly fine in the dark. Chemicals on the other hand can cause mass confusion. I'd recommend using tear gas along with the smoke. This would distort the Xiticix perceptions and make the scenario more plausible.

i'm just surprized that no vechiles have smoke generators or carrys extra rations

[Jack Daniels]

Food for holmes army can be seen a number of ways. Hunt along the way. The "hive Lands" are not barren. This is plausible if you keep the Xiticix focused on the main group and not the hundreds of small groups you send out to gather resources.

Another answer is to air drop in supplies. This is nothing new to militaries.

Actually, the Hive Lands are barren. And nobody knew the army was there so there could not have been any airdrops.
And you cannot hunt for 300,000 people for several weeks/months without being noticed by anyone. I won't try to explain why that wouldn't work, just think about it.

[Samored II]

Food for holmes army can be seen a number of ways. Hunt along the way. The "hive Lands" are not barren. This is plausible if you keep the Xiticix focused on the main group and not the hundreds of small groups you send out to gather resources.

Another answer is to air drop in supplies. This is nothing new to militaries.

Actually, the Hive Lands are barren. And nobody knew the army was there so there could not have been any airdrops.
And you cannot hunt for 300,000 people for several weeks/months without being noticed by anyone. I won't try to explain why that wouldn't work, just think about it.

Further, several times it's mentioned that the Xiticix swarm blocked aerial observers and drove off any attempt to penetrate the swarm cloud. No air drops. No sending guys back for supplies either since the arguement that the Xiticix respond differently to very large groups wouldn't apply to a couple guys sent back for groceries.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Food for holmes army can be seen a number of ways. Hunt along the way. The "hive Lands" are not barren. This is plausible if you keep the Xiticix focused on the main group and not the hundreds of small groups you send out to gather resources.

Another answer is to air drop in supplies. This is nothing new to militaries.

Actually, the Hive Lands are barren. And nobody knew the army was there so there could not have been any airdrops.
And you cannot hunt for 300,000 people for several weeks/months without being noticed by anyone. I won't try to explain why that wouldn't work, just think about it.

Further, several times it's mentioned that the Xiticix swarm blocked aerial observers and drove off any attempt to penetrate the swarm cloud. No air drops. No sending guys back for supplies ether since the arguement that the Xiticix respond differently to very large groups wouldn't apply to a couple guys sent back for groceries.

well you could do air drop just not where they are maybe 12 hours ahead of them. Fly 12000ft over the swarm at mach one drop supplies at where the would be in 12 hours, haul ass out , Death Head Transport could do that with no problem, but that is alot of runs,over 380 of them

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Food for holmes army can be seen a number of ways. Hunt along the way. The "hive Lands" are not barren. This is plausible if you keep the Xiticix focused on the main group and not the hundreds of small groups you send out to gather resources.

Another answer is to air drop in supplies. This is nothing new to militaries.

Actually, the Hive Lands are barren. And nobody knew the army was there so there could not have been any airdrops.
And you cannot hunt for 300,000 people for several weeks/months without being noticed by anyone. I won't try to explain why that wouldn't work, just think about it.

Further, several times it's mentioned that the Xiticix swarm blocked aerial observers and drove off any attempt to penetrate the swarm cloud. No air drops. No sending guys back for supplies ether since the arguement that the Xiticix respond differently to very large groups wouldn't apply to a couple guys sent back for groceries.

well you could do air drop just not where they are maybe 12 hours ahead of them. Fly 12000ft over the swarm at mach one drop supplies at where the would be in 12 hours, haul ass out , Death Head Transport could do that with no problem, but that is alot of runs,over 380 of them

Too bad everyone thought they were dead, even the CS High Command, so the point is moot.

why jericho's DHTs could have done this

[Nekira Sudacne]

Here's the one thing I really don't get about why everyone decry's holmes's stunt.

it says in the book he tried something no one else going into hivelands had tried.

so, why the hell SHOULDN'T it come up with a different result? seriously?

I don't get the problem. makes perfect sense to me.

[Killer Cyborg]

Here's the one thing I really don't get about why everyone decry's holmes's stunt.

it says in the book he tried something no one else going into hivelands had tried.

so, why the hell SHOULDN'T it come up with a different result? seriously?

I don't get the problem. makes perfect sense to me.

Just because nobody else has tried it doesn't mean that it would or should work. Nobody has tried to invade Atlantis using an army of Vagabonds swinging soap-in-sock weapons and wearing cardboard armor.
This does not mean that they would would ever succeed if they tried it.

It's not like the Xiticix were sitting back, thinking "Huh. Let's give this guy points for originality. Let's treat him and his army in a completely different manner than we treat any other intruding life-form."

Remember, Xiticix slaughter cattle and other animals that pose no threat to them, simply because they see those animals as trespassers.
The books describe how they would handle an event like Holmes' army, and things should have gone much differently than they did.
It's about as likely as an army of D-Bees marching through CS territory and the CS kicking back and letting them do it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Here's the one thing I really don't get about why everyone decry's holmes's stunt.

it says in the book he tried something no one else going into hivelands had tried.

so, why the hell SHOULDN'T it come up with a different result? seriously?

I don't get the problem. makes perfect sense to me.

Just because nobody else has tried it doesn't mean that it would or should work. Nobody has tried to invade Atlantis using an army of Vagabonds swinging soap-in-sock weapons and wearing cardboard armor.
This does not mean that they would would ever succeed if they tried it.

It's not like the Xiticix were sitting back, thinking "Huh. Let's give this guy points for originality. Let's treat him and his army in a completely different manner than we treat any other intruding life-form."

Remember, Xiticix slaughter cattle and other animals that pose no threat to them, simply because they see those animals as trespassers.
The books describe how they would handle an event like Holmes' army, and things should have gone much differently than they did.
It's about as likely as an army of D-Bees marching through CS territory and the CS kicking back and letting them do it.

it also mentioned he based the decision on various reserch on the xiticic on alternate forms of behavor. they are living beings in the end, not pre-programed attack drones, but rather close.

and regardless, the simple fact is there has never been much reserch on the xiticix, and unlikely all the facts are known.

so really, I don't see why things can't change and new things be added.

new material constantly updates old material. it's that simple, and I have no problems whatsoever.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Food for holmes army can be seen a number of ways. Hunt along the way. The "hive Lands" are not barren. This is plausible if you keep the Xiticix focused on the main group and not the hundreds of small groups you send out to gather resources.

Another answer is to air drop in supplies. This is nothing new to militaries.

Actually, the Hive Lands are barren. And nobody knew the army was there so there could not have been any airdrops.
And you cannot hunt for 300,000 people for several weeks/months without being noticed by anyone. I won't try to explain why that wouldn't work, just think about it.

Further, several times it's mentioned that the Xiticix swarm blocked aerial observers and drove off any attempt to penetrate the swarm cloud. No air drops. No sending guys back for supplies ether since the arguement that the Xiticix respond differently to very large groups wouldn't apply to a couple guys sent back for groceries.

well you could do air drop just not where they are maybe 12 hours ahead of them. Fly 12000ft over the swarm at mach one drop supplies at where the would be in 12 hours, haul ass out , Death Head Transport could do that with no problem, but that is alot of runs,over 380 of them

Too bad everyone thought they were dead, even the CS High Command, so the point is moot.

why jericho's DHTs could have done this

Jericho didn't have DHT's...if he did, the CS High Command wouldn't have thought he was dead because they'd have gone back for supplies & to coordinate movements & support with the rest of the army.

hey dont make me sell this idea to KS to make it canon just to hear you guys whine about it

[Samored II]

Fly high enough to be out of visual range of the cover swarm and the DHT would be in range of the orbital defense network, engaged, and shot down. No aerial re-supply.

[Blight]

Fly high enough to be out of visual range of the cover swarm and the DHT would be in range of the orbital defense network, engaged, and shot down. No aerial re-supply.

Um no the NGR use sub-orbital transports to cross the Atlantic.

[Killer Cyborg]

it also mentioned he based the decision on various reserch on the xiticic on alternate forms of behavor. they are living beings in the end, not pre-programed attack drones, but rather close.

The CS aren't pre-programmed attack drones either, but their behavior is predictable in a similar situation.

and regardless, the simple fact is there has never been much reserch on the xiticix, and unlikely all the facts are known.

You are talking about in-game information, which is irrelevent.
The official text of the game describes the behavior of Xiticix so that Game Masters will understand how to run them. It is official material, not based on any research or study of this ficticious race of aliens.
Based on the official information in the XI book, I cannot fathom ANY Game Master running an adventure with the same result that Holmes had.
Because the results do not fit with the rules governing xiticix behavior.

so really, I don't see why things can't change and new things be added.

It obviously CAN be done, but it shouldn't be done because it's cheating and it's bad writing.

Let me illustrate with a riddle:
A man was murdered in a locked room, and the murderer is nowhere to be found. All the doors and windows to the room are locked from the inside, and there are no ventilation shafts or other ways to enter or leave the room. The killer severed the man's head and left it in a refridgerator, the sole piece of furniture in the room. The body was on the other side of the room, and the murder weapon (a chainsaw) is sitting on top of the refridgerator.
How did the murderer accomplish this?

(When you think you know the answer, scroll down)
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Answer:
There was no murderer. The man hanged himself. There was no chainsaw, no fridge, and the guy's head wasn't actually severed or anything. The main clues that should have tipped you off to what happened is that the guy was hanging by his neck from a rope tied to the rafters, with a tipped-over chair lying on the floor under his feet.
Lucky for me you don't mind when information is changed or added.

[Vrykolas2k]

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Fly high enough to be out of visual range of the cover swarm and the DHT would be in range of the orbital defense network, engaged, and shot down. No aerial re-supply.

nope 10000ft is the limit the Xiticix care about and DHT can go as high as 60000ft or 11 miles, so DHT theroy might have a chance and be safe from the orbital defense network , and after looking over cwc again I found most Coalition vechiles have smoke dispensers ,

[Mech-Viper Prime]

apples and oranges and pears and peanuts, you guys just hate Jericho Holmes , because the best warrior Lazlo has ios some high-mightly self righteous witch named Erin " Karl Prosek dumped my lame self" Tarn

[Mech-Viper Prime]

apples and oranges and pears and peanuts, you guys just hate Jericho Holmes , because the best warrior Lazlo has ios some high-mightly self righteous witch named Erin " Karl Prosek dumped my lame self" Tarn

When did Erin Tarn become a warrior, or a witch, or even a leader of Lazlo?

I can see why you're confused on this issue. It's because you are confused in general.

you know take a walk down the elder queen 's chambers mister funny man

[grandmaster z0b]

apples and oranges and pears and peanuts, you guys just hate Jericho Holmes , because the best warrior Lazlo has ios some high-mightly self righteous witch named Erin " Karl Prosek dumped my lame self" Tarn

When did Erin Tarn become a warrior, or a witch, or even a leader of Lazlo?

I can see why you're confused on this issue. It's because you are confused in general.

you know take a walk down the elder queen 's chambers mister funny man

What are you talking about? I think you've lost it

I want Holmes' mission to make sense instead of just making up lame excuses for why it's actually possible.

You brought up Hannibal crossing the Alps before as a RL example, but he had everything meticulously planned including adequate supplies. I love military history so I want this to have similar logic so that it become a great feat rather than dues ex machina.

[grandmaster z0b]

One thing to point out in relation to the "smart bugs & queens" concept.

They're not human. They don't think like us. They are very smart insect creatures with a hive mentality. Trying to apply human battle concepts to not just alien creatures, but alien insects really doesn't work at all. If they were human beings with extra arms you might pull off that kind of reasoning...but they aren't.

Now this is another one of those muddy areas that sometimes leads to lazy thinking again... 'They're not like us so they must think differently'.

It's possibly because we have a rather exalted set of delusions about how profound our own thought processes are, but right down where it counts there's a pretty simple reptile sitting at the top of our spinal cord and then so vague flim-flam going on above it which we sometimes mistake as being 'us'.

The basic imperatives of any successful life-form able to exist and thrive in multiple dimensions would have to be pretty much static - it must be adaptable psychologically (and/or physiologically) to new environments, it must be able to identify and avoid or destroy dangers to its survival in an appropriate fashion, it must secure 'territory' for security and expansion (this can be defined as an evolutionary niche or actual real estate). Moreover it must be able to overcome existinging behavioural patterns when those turn out to have a negative survival value in the new environment.

Throwing intelligence into the equation doesn't actually change any of these, though it sometimes moves the goalposts a little. Other motives may vary (but no matter what Star Trek would have you believe glueing a Cornish Pasty to someones head, painting them red and having them only talk in rhyme doesn't quite cut it) but the basics remain pretty damn' basic for more or less everything on our planet - and that includes a hell of a lot of ground, behaviourally speaking.

Anyway it's not up to us to question this as the answers to these questions already exist in WB:23. That's why they are there, and that's why it's so confusing when two books contradict themselves.

[grandmaster z0b]

Anyway it's not up to us to question this

So... you'd be like... really new here, right? ^_-

Yeah I'm a total n00b.

I meant in this context it's not up to us to re-interpret Xiticix behaviour, as the info is already in a book.

[Killer Cyborg]

It'd be more like a bunch of splugorth minions in number sufficient to seriously deplete or overcome the CS standing forces being located somewhere near Chi-Town, and the CS not just blindly throwing every single soldier on hand at them and hoping for the best.

Find some hard numbers on that and you'll have a good argument.

What was the population of the hive(s) in control of the territory that Holmes passed through? What was the makeup of his own army?

[cornholioprime]

What Holmes did could be possible. Just a matter of opinion.

Xiticix attack posture could be seen as similar to killer bees. People can and do live around them. Can the entire hive come out in force? Yes. Do they do this on a daily basis at the drop of a hat? No. The colony could not survive loosing those numbers every day.

Xiticix only eat humans/SN beings if the have a high amount of PPE. If Holmes army is not attacking back there is no reason for the bugs to keep going after them. Xiticix probably only want to make a point "No Trespassing!"

Uhhh...no. Xiticix don't coexist with ANYTHING.

Even Killer Bees don't come close to the Behaviour Patterns of Xiticix.

Food for holmes army can be seen a number of ways. Hunt along the way. The "hive Lands" are not barren. This is plausible if you keep the Xiticix focused on the main group and not the hundreds of small groups you send out to gather resources.

I'm asking you kindly: Do you have any inkling of just how many troops 500,000 men comprise?? Even in California, the most populous State in the Union, MOST of their major Cities don't have populations that large.

So even IF the Xiticix left the Larger Animals alone (and according to TWENTY YEARS of detailed Coalition Research, they don't even leave large, non-sentient Animals alive, and/or those same Animals eventually starve to death because of Xiticix Terraforming), there isn't nearly enough Game and Flora around to feed that many....not even for a few days, much less the several months that they stayed in the hinterlands.

Another answer is to air drop in supplies. This is nothing new to militaries.

Nnnnnnnnope.

Thought dead by EVERYONE in the High Command and their fellow deployed Armies. Engaged in Radio Silence the entire time after the Bug Attack.

No Air Support.

**************************************************************

But that's alright. I knda figgered that Kevin went all the way with the whole "Hand of God" thing and sent them down Honeyed Manna and Dew to drink every morning.....

[Mech-Viper Prime]

apples and oranges and pears and peanuts, you guys just hate Jericho Holmes , because the best warrior Lazlo has ios some high-mightly self righteous witch named Erin " Karl Prosek dumped my lame self" Tarn

When did Erin Tarn become a warrior, or a witch, or even a leader of Lazlo?

I can see why you're confused on this issue. It's because you are confused in general.

you know take a walk down the elder queen 's chambers mister funny man

What are you talking about? I think you've lost it

I want Holmes' mission to make sense instead of just making up lame excuses for why it's actually possible.

You brought up Hannibal crossing the Alps before as a RL example, but he had everything meticulously planned including adequate supplies. I love military history so I want this to have similar logic so that it become a great feat rather than dues ex machina.

do i think honestly think holmes can make that trip, yes because he did everything to not to get the xiticix worked up any more then they were, , yes with use of smoke, smoke grenades, keep moving at a steadly speed, the training level of his troops , depend which vechiles survive , depending on the weather, and condition of supplies, each played part in holmes plans.
Holmes strikes me a leader who makes plans for just incase this happens

plan 21a3 If tolkeen breaks our lines and pushes the most of the unit to place bravo we meet up at point echo

I see Holmes's officers able to figure out Holmes plans
Capt Talyor " see that swarm is moving northwest"
Col walker " load as much water and mres in transport 24 and get ready for a combat drop inside of the xiticix controlled area"
Capt Talyor "yes sir " as a smile forms

As for his troops getting yonked up and took away by the xiticix, i can them waiting until it a safe distance and then fighting back.speaking on how well of their training and love for holmes.

holmes senior troops

private jones" Sgt you think you'll get thru this"
SSG Morgan " Troop holmes be in hairy *(&% then this, this *(&% is a walk in the park to the old man, so relax"
SSG Thomas " so you think we 'll it thru it?"
SSG Morgan " I know alot of things, one is trust in holmes"

Or

KS did this all for storytelling, and that is it, much like a lone man on a criminal empire or evil government and beating them

Some say compared minions of lord of atlantis doing to same thing but to the coalition area, different mindset. You could run this type of adventure thru different controlled areas and get different results each time.

Tamaranis wrote:
It'd be more like a bunch of splugorth minions in number sufficient to seriously deplete or overcome the CS standing forces being located somewhere near Chi-Town, and the CS not just blindly throwing every single soldier on hand at them and hoping for the best.

well if this happened odds are its just not the coalition attacking it's vanguard, d-bees from the burbs, humans from the burbs, coaliton friendly mercs in the area and any pro coalition froces in the area.

One thing no one is going to send thier entire force to deal with a invader,
you keep a number of troops in reserve,
408000 troops vs 180,000 to 250,000 xiticix , look at the other actions within the area the borders of closed , the hive odds are we reinforced with extra xiticx , xiticix super-soldier relays what the humans are doing , 72 pass the Xiticx elder queen, know the threat from them haspast, 40% of them are ordered to continue watching and making sure they dont try to settled in the area as long as they keep moving let them if them stop and make camp attack. meanwhile the xiticx are checking the rest of the land for invaders.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

to be honest at the longest distance in duluth hiveland 300 miles its would have taken a day and half to go thru it all most
25 miles in 3 hours at 8mph gives a range of 200 miles per 24 hours
and Holmes went less the 200 miles at 10 mph , unless they got losted, and since holmes keeped up to date on everything in the area, this is unlikely,so the 3 weeks to lose the duluth xiticix means the xiticix follow them outside of xiticix held lands until the xiticix no longer saw them as a threat
so no month ,6 months or what ever time frame so of you may be using

Holmes orders were engage in non lethal defensive moves.poke jab swat
along with smoke from the vechiles to keep the loses low

so the 72 hours of beening under attack is a joke at best unless holmes was going back and forth, so the entire holmes into xiticix needs to be looked at again

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Man! After 2 days this argument is still going on?!

*points to the CS vs REF thread* This surprises you?

That was a heated discussion with convictions and beliefs.

welcome to megaverse forums

[Killer Cyborg]

It'd be more like a bunch of splugorth minions in number sufficient to seriously deplete or overcome the CS standing forces being located somewhere near Chi-Town, and the CS not just blindly throwing every single soldier on hand at them and hoping for the best.

Find some hard numbers on that and you'll have a good argument.

What was the population of the hive(s) in control of the territory that Holmes passed through? What was the makeup of his own army?

Small enough!

So no hard numbers, then?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

It'd be more like a bunch of splugorth minions in number sufficient to seriously deplete or overcome the CS standing forces being located somewhere near Chi-Town, and the CS not just blindly throwing every single soldier on hand at them and hoping for the best.

Find some hard numbers on that and you'll have a good argument.

What was the population of the hive(s) in control of the territory that Holmes passed through? What was the makeup of his own army?

Small enough!

So no hard numbers, then?

only the 180,000 to 250,000 and the rest are estimates, as is the number before it

[Killer Cyborg]

It'd be more like a bunch of splugorth minions in number sufficient to seriously deplete or overcome the CS standing forces being located somewhere near Chi-Town, and the CS not just blindly throwing every single soldier on hand at them and hoping for the best.

Find some hard numbers on that and you'll have a good argument.

What was the population of the hive(s) in control of the territory that Holmes passed through? What was the makeup of his own army?

Small enough!

So no hard numbers, then?

only the 180,000 to 250,000 and the rest are estimates, as is the number before it

Quotes and page numbers, please.
And, for the heck of it, mention what the numbers relate to. Is that supposed to be the xiticix hive population, or the number of Holmes' troops?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

It'd be more like a bunch of splugorth minions in number sufficient to seriously deplete or overcome the CS standing forces being located somewhere near Chi-Town, and the CS not just blindly throwing every single soldier on hand at them and hoping for the best.

Find some hard numbers on that and you'll have a good argument.

What was the population of the hive(s) in control of the territory that Holmes passed through? What was the makeup of his own army?

Small enough!

So no hard numbers, then?

only the 180,000 to 250,000 and the rest are estimates, as is the number before it

Quotes and page numbers, please.
And, for the heck of it, mention what the numbers relate to. Is that supposed to be the xiticix hive population, or the number of Holmes' troops?

SOT3 107 SOT5 110 SOT 6 13 and WB 23 page85-88, number that attacked holmes, his troops was listed at over 400,000

[Kagashi]

Okay, wow...lots of reading...

#1 Ive been drinking, so dont freak out about spelling.

#2 here is what I have to say:

I think the stunt could have been pulled off, especially considering we do not have the whole picture with what happened with the Lazlo war.

I think a lot of people do not take into consideration that the bugs have the same (or close to it) IQ as humanoids. They are not running off of 100% instincts like most people portray them to be. Perhaps they recognized the potential threat of 400,000 CS troops marching through their territory with NO HOSTILE INTENT. If they attacked, the CS would attack back, and with the yet undetermined end result of the Lazlo war know, they may have been trying to reserve their forces to combat those who were activly attacking them.

Plus there is nothing saying that they are LOOSING the war with Lazlo. We have not been privied to that info yet.

As for the water issue. Yes, thats kinda crap. Unless the CS was resorcefull enough to get water for 400,000 troops from the land infested by the bugs, they would not have survived. period dot. Thats not to say they didnt though. Perhaps they were able to live off of rain water, streams, snow, ect...its not that hard to believe. Whats hard to believe is the amount of water gained in that way. 400,000 is a lot of troops, but its still POSSIBLE.

Either way, its already been stated, Holmes DID do what he did, so its moot to try to argue it didn't. Just like we have to accept that Obi-Wan was 10 years younger in the prequals than he should have been according to his age in TOT, we have to accept that Holmes went through the bug territories and won the war against Tolkeen.

[ShadowLogan]

By the Rifts Main RPG (not R:UE) with the Xiticix stats, the insects only seem to get really pissed if you come within 10miles of the hive IIRC.

The Rifter article (don't have the WB though I have seen it and the Rifter seems to have been the base for it, nor SOT series) suggests that Hives have an operating range of 150miles in diameter.

There is mention of people and animals living in Xiticix territory.

So Homles could have entered the Hivelands and survived using the methods allready attributed to him. The big problem is the logistics of food and water. Since we know people/animals are living there they can get them, weather there is enough for an army that size.

Has it occured to anyone that if the CS forces spotted them and hunkered down inside their vehicles and played dead the Xiticix might lose intrest in them after a few minutes? In this way they Xiticix find them and what appear to be a large supply of abandoned vehicles. Since the bugs don't use them in any fashion to my knowledge they leave them alone.

[Slag]

No, no, we all know the real reason Holmes survived is because he's actually a splintered essence of an evil alien intelligence, the same one that's REALLY the one in control of the CS, and is the same one that controls the Xiticix. And if you think that's too preposterous, I'm sure 3 or 4 world books from now will confirm my theory.

And it's name: Zem'beid'aa!

[cornholioprime]

Why Holmes's plan simply couldn't have worked:

1. Xiticix Behavior.
   
   The CS didn't just conduct some overnight Gallup Poll on Xiticix Opinions; they actually spent TWENTY YEARS of constant research, "funded" by dead Coalition Troopers by the buttload.
   Even more importantly, it wasn't just CS Research that determined Xiticix Behaviours; GOD HIMSELF (Kevin) told you outright that this was precisely the way that Xiticix always act, from an omniscient point of view. We're not just talking about some half-remembered Journal from Erin Tarn or Orion Greenfield.
   What happened -or rather, didn't happen -to Holmes and his men -is simply beyond the realm of "possibility."
   
   In Gaming Terms, it would be like an Adventuring Party, all clad in Dragon Skin Armor sneaking into a Wooly Dragon's Lair, waking it up by pooping on its head, and then being allowed to leave with one of the Dragon's most valuable pieces of Treasure unmolested.
   
2. "Don't fire on the Bugs, not even to save your own lives. Trust me, I'm General Jericho Freakin' Holmes."
   
   'Nuff said on this matter by others and myself. Panicking Soldiers freak out -somehow understandable when one is being eaten alive -shoot down a few Warriors, Death Scent gets released, and the Xs fight to the death.
   
   Simple??
   
3. Basic Logistics.
   
   500,000 Troops is more Population than a whole hell of a lot of Major Cities in the Real World. There was no means of re-supply, nobody knew they were alive, and Armies DON'T carry around with them all the Food and Water that they need for even DAYS, let alone MONTHS. Mass Starvation for teh Win!!!
   
   Unless, of course, the Hand of God protected him. My guess is that He sent the CS Soldiers manna rained down from Heaven every morning.
   
4. The Tolkeen Intelligence Gathering Unit.
   
   in many ways, this is the piece de resistance of the whole debacle.
   
   No offense, Bill C., but you mean to tell me with a straight face that the CS Soldiers spent 48-72 hours of sheer hell dodging and ducking your "gentler, kinder" Xiticix, THEN somehow managed to survive in Theater along with the rest of the Army for months in the mostly sterile Tolkeen Hinterlands without material support, THEN after all of this hellish experience, the Interrogators at Tolkeen couldn't get all this undoubetedly "burned into their minds forever" Information out of the Captives' Brains??
   
   Now, I can't really speak for anyone else here, but I kinda think that "I survived the Xiticix Trap you Tolkeen Bastiches while watching my friends get turned into Sludge and I'm here to spy on the Kingdom for my Boss General Holmes, who also survived along with a whole freakin' mostly intact Army and we're gonna make you pay from the north" would kinda stick out like a sore thumb to any and all Psychic Probes...
   
   
   
   Uhhhhh....no.
   
   
   

[Killer Cyborg]

In what year did Holmes make his tour of bugland?
What specific hive(s) did Holmes and his men travel past? What distance?

[cornholioprime]

In what year did Holmes make his tour of bugland?
What specific hive(s) did Holmes and his men travel past? What distance?

Year: Unknown, but presumably 107-108 P.A.

General Holmes's forces: 400 000
Xiticix Forces (Duluth Hive, rough estimate): MILLIONS AND MILLIONS.
Why do I say this??
Because the Psi-Stalker Tribes in Rifts Aftermath are responsible for killing about 2-3 million per year, and are not keeping up with the Xs' growth rate (page 69; they are "only" keeping the Xiticix Growth Rate down to about 70% a year). By reverse logic, one can infer that the total population is probably somewhere around 3-5 million as of 109 P.A.; and the Duluth Hive, the one that Holmes's Army passed by, is the largest (and original) Hive and almost definitely has close to a million Bugs in its own right if not more.
And ARCHIE-Three thinks (has calculated) that there are even more Bugs than either Chi-Town or Lazlo thinks that there is!

[Killer Cyborg]

In what year did Holmes make his tour of bugland?
What specific hive(s) did Holmes and his men travel past? What distance?

Year: Unknown, but presumably 107-108 P.A.

A CS report from 105 PA estimated the total Xiticix population at between 3-4 million.

XI, p. 85
"At the Xiticix's current unchecked rate of growth there will be approximately 10-12 million in two years, 16-20 million in three year, 30+ million in four and over 50 million in five!"

If Holmes took his journey in 107 PA, there could be as many as 12 million xiticix. Divided between 6 Hives, that's about 2 million per hive.
About 45% of the population of a hive are Warriors, so that's nearly a million fighters without even including Hunters, Leapers, and others.
They could indeed have had the preferred 2:1 advantage that they prefer.

the Psi-Stalker Tribes in Rifts Aftermath are responsible for killing about 2-3 million per year

Where does it say this?

[cornholioprime]

In what year did Holmes make his tour of bugland?
What specific hive(s) did Holmes and his men travel past? What distance?

Year: Unknown, but presumably 107-108 P.A.

A CS report from 105 PA estimated the total Xiticix population at between 3-4 million.

XI, p. 85
"At the Xiticix's current unchecked rate of growth there will be approximately 10-12 million in two years, 16-20 million in three year, 30+ million in four and over 50 million in five!"

If Holmes took his journey in 107 PA, there could be as many as 12 million xiticix. Divided between 6 Hives, that's about 2 million per hive.
About 45% of the population of a hive are Warriors, so that's nearly a million fighters without even including Hunters, Leapers, and others.
They could indeed have had the preferred 2:1 advantage that they prefer.

the Psi-Stalker Tribes in Rifts Aftermath are responsible for killing about 2-3 million per year

Where does it say this?

Page 69 of Rifts: Aftermath as well.

Whatever the numbers, it's plain as the nose on me face that the Bugs had more than sufficient "firepower" to wipe Holmes off the face of the Earth in no time flat.....

[Killer Cyborg]

In what year did Holmes make his tour of bugland?
What specific hive(s) did Holmes and his men travel past? What distance?

Year: Unknown, but presumably 107-108 P.A.

A CS report from 105 PA estimated the total Xiticix population at between 3-4 million.

XI, p. 85
"At the Xiticix's current unchecked rate of growth there will be approximately 10-12 million in two years, 16-20 million in three year, 30+ million in four and over 50 million in five!"

If Holmes took his journey in 107 PA, there could be as many as 12 million xiticix. Divided between 6 Hives, that's about 2 million per hive.
About 45% of the population of a hive are Warriors, so that's nearly a million fighters without even including Hunters, Leapers, and others.
They could indeed have had the preferred 2:1 advantage that they prefer.

the Psi-Stalker Tribes in Rifts Aftermath are responsible for killing about 2-3 million per year

Where does it say this?

Page 69 of Rifts: Aftermath as well.

That's in 109 PA, when there are likely "30+ million" xiticix overall.

Whatever the numbers, it's plain as the nose on me face that the Bugs had more than sufficient "firepower" to wipe Holmes off the face of the Earth in no time flat.....

It would have been a fight, but it would not be an even fight. Still, the bugs would swarm over them with at least 2:1 odds and kill them.

[cornholioprime]

In what year did Holmes make his tour of bugland?
What specific hive(s) did Holmes and his men travel past? What distance?

Year: Unknown, but presumably 107-108 P.A.

A CS report from 105 PA estimated the total Xiticix population at between 3-4 million.

XI, p. 85
"At the Xiticix's current unchecked rate of growth there will be approximately 10-12 million in two years, 16-20 million in three year, 30+ million in four and over 50 million in five!"

If Holmes took his journey in 107 PA, there could be as many as 12 million xiticix. Divided between 6 Hives, that's about 2 million per hive.
About 45% of the population of a hive are Warriors, so that's nearly a million fighters without even including Hunters, Leapers, and others.
They could indeed have had the preferred 2:1 advantage that they prefer.

the Psi-Stalker Tribes in Rifts Aftermath are responsible for killing about 2-3 million per year

Where does it say this?

Page 69 of Rifts: Aftermath as well.

That's in 109 PA, when there are likely "30+ million" xiticix overall.

Whatever the numbers, it's plain as the nose on me face that the Bugs had more than sufficient "firepower" to wipe Holmes off the face of the Earth in no time flat.....

It would have been a fight, but it would not be an even fight. Still, the bugs would swarm over them with at least 2:1 odds and kill them.

Not according to Dead Boy and Mech-V.

A few cans of Raid and a Smoke Bomb or two should even the oddds according to them....

J/K

[Mech-Viper Prime]

In what year did Holmes make his tour of bugland?
What specific hive(s) did Holmes and his men travel past? What distance?

Year: Unknown, but presumably 107-108 P.A.

A CS report from 105 PA estimated the total Xiticix population at between 3-4 million.

XI, p. 85
"At the Xiticix's current unchecked rate of growth there will be approximately 10-12 million in two years, 16-20 million in three year, 30+ million in four and over 50 million in five!"

If Holmes took his journey in 107 PA, there could be as many as 12 million xiticix. Divided between 6 Hives, that's about 2 million per hive.
About 45% of the population of a hive are Warriors, so that's nearly a million fighters without even including Hunters, Leapers, and others.
They could indeed have had the preferred 2:1 advantage that they prefer.

the Psi-Stalker Tribes in Rifts Aftermath are responsible for killing about 2-3 million per year

Where does it say this?

Page 69 of Rifts: Aftermath as well.

That's in 109 PA, when there are likely "30+ million" xiticix overall.

Whatever the numbers, it's plain as the nose on me face that the Bugs had more than sufficient "firepower" to wipe Holmes off the face of the Earth in no time flat.....

It would have been a fight, but it would not be an even fight. Still, the bugs would swarm over them with at least 2:1 odds and kill them.

Not according to Dead Boy and Mech-V.

A few cans of Raid and a Smoke Bomb or two should even the oddds according to them....

J/K

its canon, corny deal with it ,
you know i yet to see one why its couldn't be done and why, given al the data, and depending other factors time of year, weather, 3rd party force and other factors are never factor into this which each in even a minor way play a part in the enitre the thing

a range of 200 miles per 24hrs, using of smoke and other nonlethal defensive moves, yes it could be pulled

[cornholioprime]

its canon, corny deal with it ,
you know i yet to see one why its couldn't be done and why, given al the data, and depending other factors time of year, weather, 3rd party force and other factors are never factor into this which each in even a minor way play a part in the enitre the thing

a range of 200 miles per 24hrs, using of smoke and other nonlethal defensive moves, yes it could be pulled

You mean like THIS?!?

Why Holmes's plan simply couldn't have worked:


1. Xiticix Behavior.

The CS didn't just conduct some overnight Gallup Poll on Xiticix Opinions; they actually spent TWENTY YEARS of constant research, "funded" by dead Coalition Troopers by the buttload.
Even more importantly, it wasn't just CS Research that determined Xiticix Behaviours; GOD HIMSELF (Kevin) told you outright that this was precisely the way that Xiticix always act, from an omniscient point of view. We're not just talking about some half-remembered Journal from Erin Tarn or Orion Greenfield.
What happened -or rather, didn't happen -to Holmes and his men -is simply beyond the realm of "possibility."

In Gaming Terms, it would be like an Adventuring Party, all clad in Dragon Skin Armor sneaking into a Wooly Dragon's Lair, waking it up by pooping on its head, and then being allowed to leave with one of the Dragon's most valuable pieces of Treasure unmolested.

2. "Don't fire on the Bugs, not even to save your own lives. Trust me, I'm General Jericho Freakin' Holmes."

'Nuff said on this matter by others and myself. Panicking Soldiers freak out -somehow understandable when one is being eaten alive -shoot down a few Warriors, Death Scent gets released, and the Xs fight to the death.

Simple??

3. Basic Logistics.

500,000 Troops is more Population than a whole hell of a lot of Major Cities in the Real World. There was no means of re-supply, nobody knew they were alive, and Armies DON'T carry around with them all the Food and Water that they need for even DAYS, let alone MONTHS. Mass Starvation for teh Win!!!

Unless, of course, the Hand of God protected him. My guess is that He sent the CS Soldiers manna rained down from Heaven every morning. Confused

4. The Tolkeen Intelligence Gathering Unit.

in many ways, this is the piece de resistance of the whole debacle.

No offense, Bill C., but you mean to tell me with a straight face that the CS Soldiers spent 48-72 hours of sheer hell dodging and ducking your "gentler, kinder" Xiticix, THEN somehow managed to survive in Theater along with the rest of the Army for months in the mostly sterile Tolkeen Hinterlands without material support, THEN after all of this hellish experience, the Interrogators at Tolkeen couldn't get all this undoubetedly "burned into their minds forever" Information out of the Captives' Brains??

Now, I can't really speak for anyone else here, but I kinda think that "I survived the Xiticix Trap you Tolkeen Bastiches while watching my friends get turned into Sludge and I'm here to spy on the Kingdom for my Boss General Holmes, who also survived along with a whole freakin' mostly intact Army and we're gonna make you pay from the north" would kinda stick out like a sore thumb to any and all Psychic Probes...



Uhhhhh....no.

[tenakafurey]

Why Holmes's plan simply couldn't have worked

I dunno. I've read XI and SoT, and I'm not convinced it's as far out there as many suggest.

What are the main issues?

1: XI tells us the repsonse to an incursion by a large force. They get swarmed by 2-1 odds or more.

So, Jerichos army should have been swarmed under and defeated.

Seems reasonable enough but....


We are told he tried something no one else had tried....moving into Hive territory with a huge force. What resulted....the Xiticix swarmed, and attacked. So far, so good....

However, the General ordered a non offensive posture. Smoke was used to irrtate and drive the Xiticix away. Troops were told to refrain from fire and merely to jab and poke the attackers. SAMAS was grounded. The convoy moved at 10 mph. And so on.

The end result? After 72 hours,the Xiticix just gave up.

Is this a paradox?

p.10, XI....."The Xiticix are incredibly organized and methodical, consequently, they do not wage war and kill until they need to."

"Typically, a settlement will see warning signs for 1D4+2 months"

"(the Xiticix are usually content for a competing force to move away),"

"attacks a Xiticix without provocation"

However, it also states..."Large groups of invaders (more than 20) typically elicit a massive swarm of Warriors...."

Put it together.....

The Xiticix will attack if they need to. Jerichos forces invaded....so they did. Buit Jericho maintained a strictly defensive posture. He did not initiate attacks and while it's very likely troops did fire on the Xiticix, the fact is these would have been provoked by Xiticix attacks on them. Moreso, the General moved his army away from the hive.

In short...the hive attacked as it should have, but when they were convinced he wasn't a threat to them, they realised they did not need to kill to drive him away. He was leaving anyway. His force was unique in that it was large enough and passive enough to survive long enough for that to occur.

So...the Xiticix behaviour, to me, seems perfectly in line with what is written in WB23:XI.

There are some other difficulties...logistics for one, mind probes for another that remain. One could posit that CS technology is good enough to recycle water, or that they brought a large amount of food with them or that large numbers of hunting parties provided enough food to keep the army mobile, or that they were in Xiticix territory for only a fraction of the time they were missing, but there does seem to be a little gap there.

EJL

[grandmaster z0b]

I have a question;

If Holmes' decided to march on the Hive and attack, how long would have the Xiticix lewft him alone? I mean he's trying something that's never been done before (we must have heard that 100 times on this thread) if you maintain that the Xiticix wouldn't have attacked by instinct, then how long would have that tactic worked before the bugs did attack.

To me it seems that the bigger the force the more likely the bugs would have attacked to protect their land. I can't imagine any animal or society that would allow another large military force to walk through it's territory without either attacking, or hiding and submitting.

The Xiticix behaviour in SoT seems strange from both the perspective of real animals (especially insect hive mentality) and also the behaviour written in WB:23.

It is possible to walk an army through the hivelands, but it would require a plan much greater than what was written.