Was Holmes' stunt possible?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

all the Infantry was order to piled into or onto vechile and robots, i suggest you reread SOT5 page 110 and the 200 miles a day is based on 25miles in 3 hours counting in breaks so for 72 road marched the range is 600, that put them way out of range off any hiveland, and just because you cant believe it cant be done doesnt change the facts that it can be done

I have read that, and I find it ludicrous that there was enough room for 400K troops in and on vehicles, and that none of the vehicles were immediately disabled or destroyed by the swarm. I believe it specifically said they grouped together, with robots and vehicles on the outside, protecting those on the inside. What were they protecting on the inside of this formation? Is that where all the mystery light trucks and supplies were hidden?

Ok, so KevSim, who obviously likes big numbers over believable logistics, wrote that it can be done, so it must be true? Yeah, right. There's a reason why details were left out of this "revolutionary" move by Holmes. The flavor text talks about how the CS in the SoT was mired due to lack of supplies, lack of spare parts, lack of all sorts of stuff, but Jericho Holmes can be driven out of his camp in a haste and survive for months after magically drifting through a major Xiticix territory. I'm thinking the AI Holmes plot might have some weight, either that or he started out as a Vagabond and has a Control: Insects super power!

It's just like the millions of Skelebots, the millions of mothballed SAMAS, and so forth. Why say 100,000 when a million sounds much more scary and powerful! Every order of magnitude rolled out without much explanation just ruins it for me.

you never know
sadly we dont know what vechiles holmes had with him, i agree the entire is is more for show then actual game play Holmes is pushed in the xiticix hivelands and some how survive to repay Tolkeen's the attempt to kill him and his troops, and delivers the critial blow that ulitimely dooms tolkeen, make for a great movie or show or novel. But how does it do for game play? it could be done and there is a chance Holmes comes out of the hiveland unharmed as is the chance everyone dies within the 72 hours,
so could he do it, depends on everything , weather conditions, his troops, xiticix behaviors, what formations did they use, the shape of the equipment,rate of movement , how much food and water the have in stock, water and game out in the field, now is bewteen the supplies and the fresh game and water could that keep the troops alive, ( now this is where each and every troop comes in all over 400,000 of them
shell shock rolls, horror factor rolls, save vs insanity
combat rules

Now lets add the Xiticix are they under special orders ?is this a normal day thing for them dealing with 400,000 troops, what do they do , the invader isnt acting like an invader and is now using defensive tactics only, these beings who have fought their way to the elder queen's chambers s few times, does the weather effect how do they react to smokes and the defensive moves

Now other factors were there an outside force doing thing behind the scenes perhaps Athena has chosen Holmes , or Promethus is helping too, maybe a few of them high ranking mages are helping save holmes life and repaying him for sparing their's

[RainOfSteel]

I would like a page number where it says Xiticix of different hives rally to the defense of others please.

Bold-face is my addition.

The Xiticix species instinctively works to force out most other life forms and become the dominant species on that worlds. Once this is accomplished, there are no rival beings and little room for expansion. When this point is reaches, their life style undergoes a dramatic change that turns them against their own kind.

There, that is the primary basis for my statement.

On the next column it mentions that the Xiticix hives on Earth are not actually splintered yet . . . they're all still a part of the same original hive that have not yet turned against each other.

I had always read between the lines of this to assume that they would cooperate when faced with outside aggression.

YMMV.

There are several statements on the next page or two about the individual hives and some possiblilities about two of them coming into conflict, and this contradicts the material above.

As for the diversion force, thats what I use. A 100,000 skelebots marching on Duluth stopping for nothing is sure to draw away most of the attacking force.

Raiding swarms would catch up with the perpetrators (if any where nearby), and would annihilate them.

[RainOfSteel]

It's extremely hard to believe that the Tolkeen military never once sent a single scout (especially via astral projection or remote viewing) to check what had happened. You think they would be worried about the CS stirring up the Xiticix into swarm mode in case they decended on them from the north.

Of course Tolkeen would have sent scouts up to check, if the charicature evil and/or insane army commanders weren't in charge.

But these are two major problems with SoT in general, rather than the Holmes Manuever in particular.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Was it ever mentioned if Holmes force included "chuck wagons" or supply vehicles? Or how much notice he had?

Just covering water.

One 5000 Gallon Water Truck can carry approximately 18,927.059 liters.

18,927.059 liters x 383.444566 such water trucks equals 7257477.92 kilos, and that is equal to the 16,000,000 pounds of water that was calculated further up-topic as being necessary.

Thats quite a train, 384 giant non-MDC vehicles* at $155,000 USD a pop used (eight years old). MDC versions are going to be much more expensive in terms of CS credits.

In any event, no vehicle like this is mentioned anywhere in RMB/CWC/SoT.

I'll skip the discussion of what is necessary to haul the food.

--------------------------------------------------------

* That each require their own non-combat crew, and that must each find a source of water and fill up on because the army will be emptying a good number of them on an hourly basis. In the wilderness. This will require additional equipment for filtration systems or additional tankage for bleach storage (water safety, don't'cha know; we can't have the whole army coming down with giardia, can we?). That'll be more expensive yet, and it will require additional vehicle maintenance time.

yes it's a nice vechile the only support vechiles, i ever seen is in rifter #19 pages 54-65 and is not offical and is printed after SOT series,

the Mark V/K Moblie Kitchen are normally one per 2 companys of 320 and can do 500 meals an hour would give holmes about 1250 of these, if holmes had some of those brutes with him the food and water would no problem and could be limited to one IRP and one canteen of water, which isnt the best for long term survival but given the conditions until IRP can be given until they run out or start running low

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I would like a page number where it says Xiticix of different hives rally to the defense of others please.

Bold-face is my addition.

The Xiticix species instinctively works to force out most other life forms and become the dominant species on that worlds. Once this is accomplished, there are no rival beings and little room for expansion. When this point is reaches, their life style undergoes a dramatic change that turns them against their own kind.

There, that is the primary basis for my statement.

On the next column it mentions that the Xiticix hives on Earth are not actually splintered yet . . . they're all still a part of the same original hive that have not yet turned against each other.

I had always read between the lines of this to assume that they would cooperate when faced with outside aggression.

YMMV.

There are several statements on the next page or two about the individual hives and some possiblilities about two of them coming into conflict, and this contradicts the material above.

As for the diversion force, thats what I use. A 100,000 skelebots marching on Duluth stopping for nothing is sure to draw away most of the attacking force.

Raiding swarms would catch up with the perpetrators (if any where nearby), and would annihilate them.

yes and page 40 states each colony has its own scent , soon Winnipeg and Rolia-Morden hives might clash soon because the expanding into each others land page 26 of WB23

[grandmaster z0b]

In the end I think the problem isn't one or two unbelievable details, it's the many number of unbelievable things that have to happen for the scenario to work. Let's try and list them all:

The effective coordination of 400K troops already in retreat into the hivelands without being immediately noticed.
The logistics of feeding and carrying water for all the troops.
The order for the soldiers not to defend themselves, and their following the order.
The Xiticix deciding Holmes' wasn't a threat and leaving him alone.
The relatively small number of casualties from the Xiticix attack.
The amazing discipline of the troops in general, after being beaten in battle twice virtually none break formation or go AWOL.
The fact that Tolkeen never noticed them and never sent a scout, or used magic to discover what was happening.
The fact that after all of this somehow the remaining army is still intact, and has enough energy, ammo and nerve to launch an attack on Tolkeen.

Feel free to add your own

[Killer Cyborg]

all the Infantry was order to piled into or onto vechile and robots, i suggest you reread SOT5 page 110 and the 200 miles a day is based on 25miles in 3 hours counting in breaks so for 72 road marched the range is 600, that put them way out of range off any hiveland, and just because you cant believe it cant be done doesnt change the facts that it can be done

Anybody stopping for more than 2-3 minutes in Xiticix territory is attacked, even with small groups.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

all the Infantry was order to piled into or onto vechile and robots, i suggest you reread SOT5 page 110 and the 200 miles a day is based on 25miles in 3 hours counting in breaks so for 72 road marched the range is 600, that put them way out of range off any hiveland, and just because you cant believe it cant be done doesnt change the facts that it can be done

Anybody stopping for more than 2-3 minutes in Xiticix territory is attacked, even with small groups.

yes and ??

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I still can't get over this concept of people thinking that there were so many APC's available to carry every single soldier so no one walked...yet people were still being carried off. Then there's the issue of the vehicles barely suffering a scratch by the time they attack Tolkeen...

Then the argument of surviving of one canteen & 1 MRE a day...laughable. The troops could survive but by the time the whole thing was over they would be so combat ineffective Tolkeen would've easily finished the job it started. Everyone would be so weak & atrophied that there'd be no chance for them to engage in warfare with good chances, let alone the blitzkrieg they unleash on Tolkeen. The mobile kitchen thing is laughable too...people aren't getting into their heads that it was a rush to get out. The kitchens were 99% likely to have been set up. Every theory regarding food & water survival is that these vehicles were at full supplies and their crews were ready to go at a moment's notice.

Every single scenario in which the Holmes supporters create requires that every vehicle be fully equipped & supplied, every soldier to have been completely prepared with their entire kit at the ready, and for "chased out of their bunks" to actually mean "wide awake in their APC's."

You can't get more Hand of God than this scenario.

yeah lets not think about the 10-20 minutes the ground forces had before they were engaged by ground forces, heaven forbid that and the tolkeen militia is more put togethor then the coalition military

Every single scenario in which the anti-Holmes supporters create requires that every vehicle be empty, every soldier to have been completely unprepared with armor at one side of the camp and weapons at the other sides , and Holmes not know what he was doing

[Mech-Viper Prime]

In the end I think the problem isn't one or two unbelievable details, it's the many number of unbelievable things that have to happen for the scenario to work. Let's try and list them all:

The effective coordination of 400K troops already in retreat into the hivelands without being immediately noticed.
The logistics of feeding and carrying water for all the troops.
The order for the soldiers not to defend themselves, and their following the order.
The Xiticix deciding Holmes' wasn't a threat and leaving him alone.
The relatively small number of casualties from the Xiticix attack.
The amazing discipline of the troops in general, after being beaten in battle twice virtually none break formation or go AWOL.
The fact that Tolkeen never noticed them and never sent a scout, or used magic to discover what was happening.
The fact that after all of this somehow the remaining army is still intact, and has enough energy, ammo and nerve to launch an attack on Tolkeen.

Feel free to add your own

that nothing esle is going on in the region .
That tolkeen force could destroy everyone of Holmes DHTs
that non-lethal defense moves is not thought of as defending your self
a small of Xiticix can do massive damage to a larger force who is engaged with defending theirselfs
That the facts you fightning for the safety of your love ones is a great reason to go AWOL, and the thoughts of the same demons might be marching toward the coalition states and killings CS humans wholesale.
That every soldier past and present is a complete idiot and moron but not Larsen because he lefted the coalition so his IQ shot up 100 points, so now he can breathe air on his own

Hey,I too have problems with SOT and this entire "holmes travel the hivelands"

most hivelands are the size of counties and that it but yet some think they go only for millions of miles and look like the surface of the moon dont the humans need space suits in the hivelands

[cornholioprime]

I still can't get over this concept of people thinking that there were so many APC's available to carry every single soldier so no one walked...yet people were still being carried off. Then there's the issue of the vehicles barely suffering a scratch by the time they attack Tolkeen...

Then the argument of surviving of one canteen & 1 MRE a day...laughable. The troops could survive but by the time the whole thing was over they would be so combat ineffective Tolkeen would've easily finished the job it started. Everyone would be so weak & atrophied that there'd be no chance for them to engage in warfare with good chances, let alone the blitzkrieg they unleash on Tolkeen. The mobile kitchen thing is laughable too...people aren't getting into their heads that it was a rush to get out. The kitchens were 99% likely to have been set up. Every theory regarding food & water survival is that these vehicles were at full supplies and their crews were ready to go at a moment's notice.

Every single scenario in which the Holmes supporters create requires that every vehicle be fully equipped & supplied, every soldier to have been completely prepared with their entire kit at the ready, and for "chased out of their bunks" to actually mean "wide awake in their APC's."

You can't get more Hand of God than this scenario.

Thank you for pointing that out before I did (or remembered to).

What Holmes and Co. went through was worse than the Battle of the Bulge times ten.

Launch a major Combat Operation after all that???

And without Re-supply of Food, Materiel, or Armaments after all that???

No. Not just no, but HELL no.

(For those of you that didn't serve, Armies typically DON'T carry all the food that they need for extended operations with them; it's simply too much food. You literally need the combined Food Output of whole cities to accomplish that [seeing as hundreds of thousands of Men are in fact larger than the populations of many major Cities], and having Support Units nearly as large as the Armies in question, right there in Theater, is quite out of the question.)

[grandmaster z0b]

all the Infantry was order to piled into or onto vechile and robots, i suggest you reread SOT5 page 110 and the 200 miles a day is based on 25miles in 3 hours counting in breaks so for 72 road marched the range is 600, that put them way out of range off any hiveland, and just because you cant believe it cant be done doesnt change the facts that it can be done

Anybody stopping for more than 2-3 minutes in Xiticix territory is attacked, even with small groups.

yes and ??

So they should have been attacked again every time they stopped.

[grandmaster z0b]

I still can't get over this concept of people thinking that there were so many APC's available to carry every single soldier so no one walked...yet people were still being carried off. Then there's the issue of the vehicles barely suffering a scratch by the time they attack Tolkeen...

Then the argument of surviving of one canteen & 1 MRE a day...laughable. The troops could survive but by the time the whole thing was over they would be so combat ineffective Tolkeen would've easily finished the job it started. Everyone would be so weak & atrophied that there'd be no chance for them to engage in warfare with good chances, let alone the blitzkrieg they unleash on Tolkeen. The mobile kitchen thing is laughable too...people aren't getting into their heads that it was a rush to get out. The kitchens were 99% likely to have been set up. Every theory regarding food & water survival is that these vehicles were at full supplies and their crews were ready to go at a moment's notice.

Every single scenario in which the Holmes supporters create requires that every vehicle be fully equipped & supplied, every soldier to have been completely prepared with their entire kit at the ready, and for "chased out of their bunks" to actually mean "wide awake in their APC's."

You can't get more Hand of God than this scenario.

yeah lets not think about the 10-20 minutes the ground forces had before they were engaged by ground forces, heaven forbid that and the tolkeen militia is more put togethor then the coalition military

Every single scenario in which the anti-Holmes supporters create requires that every vehicle be empty, every soldier to have been completely unprepared with armor at one side of the camp and weapons at the other sides , and Holmes not know what he was doing

What are you even talking about? I cannot understand the first part of your statement, and the second part is just... odd. I think your just being contradictory now rather than arguing.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

all the Infantry was order to piled into or onto vechile and robots, i suggest you reread SOT5 page 110 and the 200 miles a day is based on 25miles in 3 hours counting in breaks so for 72 road marched the range is 600, that put them way out of range off any hiveland, and just because you cant believe it cant be done doesnt change the facts that it can be done

Anybody stopping for more than 2-3 minutes in Xiticix territory is attacked, even with small groups.

yes and ??

So they should have been attacked again every time they stopped.

i think that is more of a " hey we still around " thing much like a group of bees, wasp or honerts flying around the area of their nest.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yeah lets not think about the 10-20 minutes the ground forces had before they were engaged by ground forces, heaven forbid that and the tolkeen militia is more put togethor then the coalition military

So what does "chased out of their bunks" mean to you? Everyone sleeps in their armor, loaded pack full of food and water at the ready, while spooning a loaded gun? Please. Some would be on watch and ready, but if half the camp was sleeping, and surprised by the attack, they would be put on the retreat...which is what happened. As for the Tolkeen "militia" being more put together than the CS Military, that is obvious by the stupid CS antics in the books.

Every single scenario in which the anti-Holmes supporters create requires that every vehicle be empty, every soldier to have been completely unprepared with armor at one side of the camp and weapons at the other sides , and Holmes not know what he was doing

Now who's making up things? When has anyone said anything even remotely close to what you just claimed? If you look closely you will notice that most of us that have a problem with the situation do not say it would be impossible for Holmes to survive. The problem was the way it happened in the books. That's why we were suggesting ways to make it more reasonable to fit the information in the Xiticix book.

look at SOT 3 and Tolkeen attack plans the first ten to 20 mintues is more focus on the aircraft, tanks power armor then the apcs and troops if modern soldiers can build bridges under heavy fire across a river then getting dress for battle and packing up the stuff in 10 minutes is not to far out on the limb(anybody who has ever been on alert in a combat unit can tell you it can be done

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I still can't get over this concept of people thinking that there were so many APC's available to carry every single soldier so no one walked...yet people were still being carried off. Then there's the issue of the vehicles barely suffering a scratch by the time they attack Tolkeen...

Then the argument of surviving of one canteen & 1 MRE a day...laughable. The troops could survive but by the time the whole thing was over they would be so combat ineffective Tolkeen would've easily finished the job it started. Everyone would be so weak & atrophied that there'd be no chance for them to engage in warfare with good chances, let alone the blitzkrieg they unleash on Tolkeen. The mobile kitchen thing is laughable too...people aren't getting into their heads that it was a rush to get out. The kitchens were 99% likely to have been set up. Every theory regarding food & water survival is that these vehicles were at full supplies and their crews were ready to go at a moment's notice.

Every single scenario in which the Holmes supporters create requires that every vehicle be fully equipped & supplied, every soldier to have been completely prepared with their entire kit at the ready, and for "chased out of their bunks" to actually mean "wide awake in their APC's."

You can't get more Hand of God than this scenario.

yeah lets not think about the 10-20 minutes the ground forces had before they were engaged by ground forces, heaven forbid that and the tolkeen militia is more put togethor then the coalition military

Every single scenario in which the anti-Holmes supporters create requires that every vehicle be empty, every soldier to have been completely unprepared with armor at one side of the camp and weapons at the other sides , and Holmes not know what he was doing

What are you even talking about? I cannot understand the first part of your statement, and the second part is just... odd. I think your just being contradictory now rather than arguing.

yes you are right, i tried to play nice, but hey if people want to poke fun at what i have to say then turnabout is fair play

[grandmaster z0b]

I still can't get over this concept of people thinking that there were so many APC's available to carry every single soldier so no one walked...yet people were still being carried off. Then there's the issue of the vehicles barely suffering a scratch by the time they attack Tolkeen...

Then the argument of surviving of one canteen & 1 MRE a day...laughable. The troops could survive but by the time the whole thing was over they would be so combat ineffective Tolkeen would've easily finished the job it started. Everyone would be so weak & atrophied that there'd be no chance for them to engage in warfare with good chances, let alone the blitzkrieg they unleash on Tolkeen. The mobile kitchen thing is laughable too...people aren't getting into their heads that it was a rush to get out. The kitchens were 99% likely to have been set up. Every theory regarding food & water survival is that these vehicles were at full supplies and their crews were ready to go at a moment's notice.

Every single scenario in which the Holmes supporters create requires that every vehicle be fully equipped & supplied, every soldier to have been completely prepared with their entire kit at the ready, and for "chased out of their bunks" to actually mean "wide awake in their APC's."

You can't get more Hand of God than this scenario.

yeah lets not think about the 10-20 minutes the ground forces had before they were engaged by ground forces, heaven forbid that and the tolkeen militia is more put togethor then the coalition military

Every single scenario in which the anti-Holmes supporters create requires that every vehicle be empty, every soldier to have been completely unprepared with armor at one side of the camp and weapons at the other sides , and Holmes not know what he was doing

What are you even talking about? I cannot understand the first part of your statement, and the second part is just... odd. I think your just being contradictory now rather than arguing.

yes you are right, i tried to play nice, but hey if people want to poke fun at what i have to say then turnabout is fair play

Yes well only a fool would have thought we could have reached a consenus here anyway. It had been pointed out that this had been beaten to death before we started. Oh well, one more time for the n00bies.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

you know this

chased out of their bunks

has been really getting under my skin ever more then that lame "hand of god" crap

Talk about about hand of god , yes i know most of the troops might have fired at the xiticix but they wouldnt be kill shot more of aiming at arms , legs or wings as well as other defensive actions

But back to the

chased out of their bunks

thing
how far do you all think a modern combat unit in warfare sleeps away from thier vechiles or power armor in a combat enviroment across the camp ? 50 yards ? 10 feet ? or some might sleep inside the vechiles, from my personal experience as an armored crewman or tanker, it's not far, its isnt garrison life this is a combat enviroment, the second the alarm goes off, everybody starts moving
now this doesnt take in the the ones on guard duty who are buying as much time as they can for the rest to suit up, much like a certain spot in europe , where the unit assigned to it know their jobs wasnt to win if the warsaw pact attack , the job there was pure and simple, slow them down as much as you can until you are dead. your job is a delaying tactic, no more no less!!
But hey some of you think the body armor is at area A weapons at C power armor at area d food and water is at area e, and everybody sleeps in area x 6 miles away, go for it

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I still can't get over this concept of people thinking that there were so many APC's available to carry every single soldier so no one walked...yet people were still being carried off. Then there's the issue of the vehicles barely suffering a scratch by the time they attack Tolkeen...

Then the argument of surviving of one canteen & 1 MRE a day...laughable. The troops could survive but by the time the whole thing was over they would be so combat ineffective Tolkeen would've easily finished the job it started. Everyone would be so weak & atrophied that there'd be no chance for them to engage in warfare with good chances, let alone the blitzkrieg they unleash on Tolkeen. The mobile kitchen thing is laughable too...people aren't getting into their heads that it was a rush to get out. The kitchens were 99% likely to have been set up. Every theory regarding food & water survival is that these vehicles were at full supplies and their crews were ready to go at a moment's notice.

Every single scenario in which the Holmes supporters create requires that every vehicle be fully equipped & supplied, every soldier to have been completely prepared with their entire kit at the ready, and for "chased out of their bunks" to actually mean "wide awake in their APC's."

You can't get more Hand of God than this scenario.

yeah lets not think about the 10-20 minutes the ground forces had before they were engaged by ground forces, heaven forbid that and the tolkeen militia is more put togethor then the coalition military

Every single scenario in which the anti-Holmes supporters create requires that every vehicle be empty, every soldier to have been completely unprepared with armor at one side of the camp and weapons at the other sides , and Holmes not know what he was doing

What are you even talking about? I cannot understand the first part of your statement, and the second part is just... odd. I think your just being contradictory now rather than arguing.

yes you are right, i tried to play nice, but hey if people want to poke fun at what i have to say then turnabout is fair play

Yes well only a fool would have thought we could have reached a consenus here anyway. It had been pointed out that this had been beaten to death before we started. Oh well, one more time for the n00bies.

i see the points some of the others are making but sadly for some reason they dont see mine
i heard "hand of god"
yup same hand of god that give tolkeen uber weapons, same hand of god that protects atlantis, as same hand of god that keeps lazlo on the map, same hand of god that protecting NGR
I dont expect people to agree with me , but i do expect them to see the points i'm trying to make vs some of the crap i been getting. 3 gals a day every day or you die i bet some really believe them needles that come with the NBC gear can save your life too

[Nxla666]

Ok, from what I have been told by combat veterans ranging from WW2 to Desert Storm, when in the feild (such as Holmes and co.) a troopers primary weapon was NEVER more than an arms length away, and in the case of Desert Storm vets their NBC suits were right next to them at all times.

One anecdote related to me by a Vietnam vet was about the day he learned to sleep with a loaded pistol under his pillow every nite when on base, the was a nice Vietnamese boy who for months had been the "hoochs" mascot (polishing boots, cleaning messkits, etc.) any way one nite he's coming off watch heading to his bunk when the NVA attack in force. He runs the last few feet to the "hooch" just in time to see the kid coming out of it with a bloody k-bar in his hands. He says that afterwards is kind of a blur but he does remember shooting the kid running away. The kid had slit the throats on three of the vets squadmates and stabbed a fourth.

The point of this anecdote in regards to catching Holmes force unprepared is that combat troops in the feild against forces that use magic to appear out of thin air are likely to be ready to go in less than a minute at ALL times, this would include the non-combat personnel (if any are present), so it is possible for a unit to be ready to move in less than 10 minutes complete with all feild gear (enough for a few days rationing anyway).

Though I do agree that an army of 300k living off the land is, at best, unlikely.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Ok, from what I have been told by combat veterans ranging from WW2 to Desert Storm, when in the feild (such as Holmes and co.) a troopers primary weapon was NEVER more than an arms length away, and in the case of Desert Storm vets their NBC suits were right next to them at all times.

One anecdote related to me by a Vietnam vet was about the day he learned to sleep with a loaded pistol under his pillow every nite when on base, the was a nice Vietnamese boy who for months had been the "hoochs" mascot (polishing boots, cleaning messkits, etc.) any way one nite he's coming off watch heading to his bunk when the NVA attack in force. He runs the last few feet to the "hooch" just in time to see the kid coming out of it with a bloody k-bar in his hands. He says that afterwards is kind of a blur but he does remember shooting the kid running away. The kid had slit the throats on three of the vets squadmates and stabbed a fourth.

The point of this anecdote in regards to catching Holmes force unprepared is that combat troops in the feild against forces that use magic to appear out of thin air are likely to be ready to go in less than a minute at ALL times, this would include the non-combat personnel (if any are present), so it is possible for a unit to be ready to move in less than 10 minutes complete with all feild gear (enough for a few days rationing anyway).

Though I do agree that an army of 300k living off the land is, at best, unlikely.

omg no you cant use that because it makes to much sense , excellent post

[Nxla666]

Ok, from what I have been told by combat veterans ranging from WW2 to Desert Storm, when in the feild (such as Holmes and co.) a troopers primary weapon was NEVER more than an arms length away, and in the case of Desert Storm vets their NBC suits were right next to them at all times.

One anecdote related to me by a Vietnam vet was about the day he learned to sleep with a loaded pistol under his pillow every nite when on base, the was a nice Vietnamese boy who for months had been the "hoochs" mascot (polishing boots, cleaning messkits, etc.) any way one nite he's coming off watch heading to his bunk when the NVA attack in force. He runs the last few feet to the "hooch" just in time to see the kid coming out of it with a bloody k-bar in his hands. He says that afterwards is kind of a blur but he does remember shooting the kid running away. The kid had slit the throats on three of the vets squadmates and stabbed a fourth.

The point of this anecdote in regards to catching Holmes force unprepared is that combat troops in the feild against forces that use magic to appear out of thin air are likely to be ready to go in less than a minute at ALL times, this would include the non-combat personnel (if any are present), so it is possible for a unit to be ready to move in less than 10 minutes complete with all feild gear (enough for a few days rationing anyway).

Though I do agree that an army of 300k living off the land is, at best, unlikely.

omg no you cant use that because it makes to much sense , excellent post

Thanks, cant wait for the naysayers responses.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Ok, from what I have been told by combat veterans ranging from WW2 to Desert Storm, when in the feild (such as Holmes and co.) a troopers primary weapon was NEVER more than an arms length away, and in the case of Desert Storm vets their NBC suits were right next to them at all times.

One anecdote related to me by a Vietnam vet was about the day he learned to sleep with a loaded pistol under his pillow every nite when on base, the was a nice Vietnamese boy who for months had been the "hoochs" mascot (polishing boots, cleaning messkits, etc.) any way one nite he's coming off watch heading to his bunk when the NVA attack in force. He runs the last few feet to the "hooch" just in time to see the kid coming out of it with a bloody k-bar in his hands. He says that afterwards is kind of a blur but he does remember shooting the kid running away. The kid had slit the throats on three of the vets squadmates and stabbed a fourth.

The point of this anecdote in regards to catching Holmes force unprepared is that combat troops in the feild against forces that use magic to appear out of thin air are likely to be ready to go in less than a minute at ALL times, this would include the non-combat personnel (if any are present), so it is possible for a unit to be ready to move in less than 10 minutes complete with all feild gear (enough for a few days rationing anyway).

Though I do agree that an army of 300k living off the land is, at best, unlikely.

omg no you cant use that because it makes to much sense , excellent post

Thanks, cant wait for the naysayers responses.

thats make two of us

[Nxla666]

Ok, from what I have been told by combat veterans ranging from WW2 to Desert Storm, when in the feild (such as Holmes and co.) a troopers primary weapon was NEVER more than an arms length away, and in the case of Desert Storm vets their NBC suits were right next to them at all times.

One anecdote related to me by a Vietnam vet was about the day he learned to sleep with a loaded pistol under his pillow every nite when on base, the was a nice Vietnamese boy who for months had been the "hoochs" mascot (polishing boots, cleaning messkits, etc.) any way one nite he's coming off watch heading to his bunk when the NVA attack in force. He runs the last few feet to the "hooch" just in time to see the kid coming out of it with a bloody k-bar in his hands. He says that afterwards is kind of a blur but he does remember shooting the kid running away. The kid had slit the throats on three of the vets squadmates and stabbed a fourth.

The point of this anecdote in regards to catching Holmes force unprepared is that combat troops in the feild against forces that use magic to appear out of thin air are likely to be ready to go in less than a minute at ALL times, this would include the non-combat personnel (if any are present), so it is possible for a unit to be ready to move in less than 10 minutes complete with all feild gear (enough for a few days rationing anyway).

Though I do agree that an army of 300k living off the land is, at best, unlikely.

omg no you cant use that because it makes to much sense , excellent post

Thanks, cant wait for the naysayers responses.

thats make two of us

Good, then you get to hear my response.

What part of "not firing back" makes sense to you people? Trust in a man whose grand plan is run like hell north into the Bugland, don't fire a single shot, and watch 1 out of 4 of your fellow soldiers die without fighting back? I already have stated earlier the possibility of moving out fast with your kit, but just because your COMBAT gear is next to you does NOT mean you have time to grab everything like extra food & water. Mess vehicles will NOT be ready to go on a moment's notice (I've worked field messes before and they are most definitely not fast to deploy). My argument isn't that they can't grab their gear...it's that they CANNOT SURVIVE OFF RAINDROPS AND GOOD INTENTIONS. Holmes would've been killed in those 72 hours by other officers who thought he was putting them all to death. If not during the 72 hours, then during the MONTHS they were out there. Not once have any of the Holmes supporters given any of us a valid reason that while they lost 1/4 of the entire ARMY (do any of you even grasp how much 92,000 people are??) their vehicles remained in pristine shape and they moved so much as well as the troops being in such excellent fighting condition when they swooped down on Tolkeen. 300,000 combat soldiers NEED far more than 2,500 calories in the field and more than 1 canteen of rainwater in order to be combat effective.

This is not a Bioroid or Zentraedi army. Human beings raised with the notion that these bugs will eat them after they do horrible things to them (Hooray CS propaganda!) will NEVER just allow themselves to be killed without fighting back. Any of you who think that they would just let themselves be eaten on the command of a single general are beyond hopeless.

Yes I do know how large a group 92,000 people are, not firing back thing has alway bugged me as well, and since when has a soldier needed more than 2500-3000 calories and 64 ounces of water when NOT in combat, you know like hiding and not being very active like Holmes troops were after their Miracle March.

As for raindrops, Minnesotta is the "Land of 10,000 Lakes" where is the trouble finding water? Food is a different thing all together, though ancient armies managed to forage fairly well for themselves, or are you saying they didnt need as much food.

[Prince Artemis]

yep, 92,000 is a rather big number. actually i think it's bigger then my home town, by 2 to 1 i do beleive. Now, your point is sorta self defeating in that aspect. that's a huge number. Too huge. If that kind of casualty point was at one spot, it's entirely possible that they tried to keep that info secret from the troops. if it was 'salt and pepper' raids throughout the entire army, then the average grunt would not know the total numbers. Hell, it's likely that not even holms new the entire number of wounded/dead until afterwards.

As for holms and his men being combat ready, from what i was able to read while we had the final seige book, nothing said that they were absolutely health or even combat ready. The fact was, the only reason that the attack succeeded was because tolkeen had thought they had one, so they released their mercs, were no doubt celebrating heavily, and were barely even watching their back gate. They were, probably literally, cought with their pants down.

One thing i'm curious about are how many xiticix killers were still in action, and or brought to that hive land during the war. After all, proper tactics would be to make sure the bugs were occupied so you didn't need to fear attack from them. and i'm not talking about holms's stunt, i'm talking about the cs period. they were fighting next to a hive, it's likely that the bugs would have attacked because of the commotion occuring so near them. Send in a large enough group of killers and they'd have their own problems to deal with.

as for know one following holmes into the hive lands, or killing him for ordering him to do so, it's more likely then you think. for one, authority is a heck of alot more powerful then people give it credit, and two, he had a reputation of pulling off the impossible already. I'll have to talk to my psychologist friend for the exact name of the study so i can cite it properly, but there was a test that showed that ordinary Volunteers can shock other ordinary people to death because their being told to(atleast to them).

Basically, there were two groups of people, the volunteers and the plants. The volunteers were in on room and the plants were in another. they couldn't see each other, only hear c/o microphones and speakers. the volunteers were told to ask a question. if the person got it wrong they were to give them a shock and up the charge for the next wrong answer. All the shock levels were clearly labled not only in their power, but in their exact effect, passed lethal shock(i think the last one on the table was actually labled 'human combustion' or something extreme like that). The volunteers were ordered to do it and everyone went passed the lethal shock point(the plants making the noises of agony, begging them to stop, the death rattle, and eventually silence). Mind you, they were crying, begging the guy doing the test not to make them but they did it anyway when told.(he had no real authority over them, never threatened them with any sort of punishment, just told them to continue.) The test can't be repeated period due to new ethical standards but it was done because of the nazi trials and all the pow claiming they only did it because they were told to. the doctor wanted to see how true that might be.

anyway, my point is, authority goes a long way despite what some may think, and lets face it, most cs grunts are as brainwashed as the dog boys they serve beside. considering their government a good many of the soldiers would put a bullet in their own heads if they were told they were a threat to humanity.

anyway, that's my two cents. you can continue saying the same things over and over again.

oh, and just to clarify, no, i don't think that holmes thing was really possible either, and i never did, however the topic of this post was 'was it possible' so i'm mostly trying to rationalize possible reasons why it could be. It seems however that most have simply used this topic, including the creator of this topic, to repeat the same things over and over only to continually prove that it isn't. which i think then the topic should be renamed 'was holmes stunt possible' to 'this is why holms stunt was impossible'

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Ok, from what I have been told by combat veterans ranging from WW2 to Desert Storm, when in the feild (such as Holmes and co.) a troopers primary weapon was NEVER more than an arms length away, and in the case of Desert Storm vets their NBC suits were right next to them at all times.

One anecdote related to me by a Vietnam vet was about the day he learned to sleep with a loaded pistol under his pillow every nite when on base, the was a nice Vietnamese boy who for months had been the "hoochs" mascot (polishing boots, cleaning messkits, etc.) any way one nite he's coming off watch heading to his bunk when the NVA attack in force. He runs the last few feet to the "hooch" just in time to see the kid coming out of it with a bloody k-bar in his hands. He says that afterwards is kind of a blur but he does remember shooting the kid running away. The kid had slit the throats on three of the vets squadmates and stabbed a fourth.

The point of this anecdote in regards to catching Holmes force unprepared is that combat troops in the feild against forces that use magic to appear out of thin air are likely to be ready to go in less than a minute at ALL times, this would include the non-combat personnel (if any are present), so it is possible for a unit to be ready to move in less than 10 minutes complete with all feild gear (enough for a few days rationing anyway).

Though I do agree that an army of 300k living off the land is, at best, unlikely.

omg no you cant use that because it makes to much sense , excellent post

Thanks, cant wait for the naysayers responses.

thats make two of us

Good, then you get to hear my response.

What part of "not firing back" makes sense to you people? Trust in a man whose grand plan is run like hell north into the Bugland, don't fire a single shot, and watch 1 out of 4 of your fellow soldiers die without fighting back? I already have stated earlier the possibility of moving out fast with your kit, but just because your COMBAT gear is next to you does NOT mean you have time to grab everything like extra food & water. Mess vehicles will NOT be ready to go on a moment's notice (I've worked field messes before and they are most definitely not fast to deploy). My argument isn't that they can't grab their gear...it's that they CANNOT SURVIVE OFF RAINDROPS AND GOOD INTENTIONS. Holmes would've been killed in those 72 hours by other officers who thought he was putting them all to death. If not during the 72 hours, then during the MONTHS they were out there. Not once have any of the Holmes supporters given any of us a valid reason that while they lost 1/4 of the entire ARMY (do any of you even grasp how much 92,000 people are??) their vehicles remained in pristine shape and they moved so much as well as the troops being in such excellent fighting condition when they swooped down on Tolkeen. 300,000 combat soldiers NEED far more than 2,500 calories in the field and more than 1 canteen of rainwater in order to be combat effective.

months omg months where does it say months, i been hearing this but yet no one can give a page number
you be amazed how much you really needs to go on for short periods of time.
and how long does it took to break modern mess kitchern in the field??
you be surprized as what passes as combat worthy in the field, no its said the survivors were in very good shape, heavily armored and well equipped.

Holmes's officers turn on him??, yup that might explain the 25% of the losses , it never said what % were losed to the xiticix, i always figure a good 4-9% got off by CS NCOs and officers

you only need those calories if you are active, sitting in the back of an vechile doesnt require that many calories or water, like i said be you can go periods of time with little amount of water, its just not wise to do it,

Equipment wise most robot pilots will sleep in thier vechiles just because it's easy to wake up and pull guard duty in full armor then get dress in cold weather and then climb into your vechile then firing it up and the other fun stuff, meanwhile the guy in the vechile is dress, warm and rested and his vechile is ready for combat as are the rest are

many of times my bunk was my driver's hole , and a few times was the turret floor its self both when the tank was running

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yep, 92,000 is a rather big number. actually i think it's bigger then my home town, by 2 to 1 i do beleive. Now, your point is sorta self defeating in that aspect. that's a huge number. Too huge. If that kind of casualty point was at one spot, it's entirely possible that they tried to keep that info secret from the troops. if it was 'salt and pepper' raids throughout the entire army, then the average grunt would not know the total numbers. Hell, it's likely that not even holms new the entire number of wounded/dead until afterwards.

no one ever said the number was high, but lose 1/4 of you troops to just defensive moves or lose everything in full combat, Holmes might have know he was going to take loses, but its how many of his men was he willing to risk? hell he might have thought he be lucky to survive with 50% and to find out only 25%werre losed might have been a relief

As for holms and his men being combat ready, from what i was able to read while we had the final seige book, nothing said that they were absolutely health or even combat ready. The fact was, the only reason that the attack succeeded was because tolkeen had thought they had one, so they released their mercs, were no doubt celebrating heavily, and were barely even watching their back gate. They were, probably literally, cought with their pants down.

yup only thing going across holmes's troops was paidback, dont have to be at 100% to sucker punch someone, just be able to do it, and tolkeen is that sucker that got hit hard

One thing i'm curious about are how many xiticix killers were still in action, and or brought to that hive land during the war. After all, proper tactics would be to make sure the bugs were occupied so you didn't need to fear attack from them. and i'm not talking about holms's stunt, i'm talking about the cs period. they were fighting next to a hive, it's likely that the bugs would have attacked because of the commotion occuring so near them. Send in a large enough group of killers and they'd have their own problems to deal with.

less then 10%

as for know one following holmes into the hive lands, or killing him for ordering him to do so, it's more likely then you think. for one, authority is a heck of alot more powerful then people give it credit, and two, he had a reputation of pulling off the impossible already. I'll have to talk to my psychologist friend for the exact name of the study so i can cite it properly, but there was a test that showed that ordinary Volunteers can shock other ordinary people to death because their being told to(atleast to them).

the power that is holmes

anyway, my point is, authority goes a long way despite what some may think, and lets face it, most cs grunts are as brainwashed as the dog boys they serve beside. considering their government a good many of the soldiers would put a bullet in their own heads if they were told they were a threat to humanity.

dont say that only because its true

oh, and just to clarify, no, i don't think that holmes thing was really possible either, and i never did, however the topic of this post was 'was it possible' so i'm mostly trying to rationalize possible reasons why it could be. It seems however that most have simply used this topic, including the creator of this topic, to repeat the same things over and over only to continually prove that it isn't. which i think then the topic should be renamed 'was holmes stunt possible' to 'this is why holms stunt was impossible'

well you had me agreeing with you for the most part owell [/quote]

[Samored II]

the Mark V/K Moblie Kitchen are normally one per 2 companys of 320 and can do 500 meals an hour would give holmes about 1250 of these, if holmes had some of those brutes with him the food and water would no problem and could be limited to one IRP and one canteen of water, which isnt the best for long term survival but given the conditions until IRP can be given until they run out or start running low

And the presense of such a critical support vehicle would do what to influence the actions of the troops when a random Xiticix patrol decided to attack? Maybe cause them to ignore Holmes orders and shot-to-kill? Thus instigating the killer swarm. This leaves aside the coincidence that such a large body of rear area support equipment just "happened" to be close by when Holmes retreated into the Hivelands.

It occurs to me a better arguement for the por-Holmes side would be that he was planning a "great right-hook" through the Hivelands all along as part of a sneak attack to end the war. This would explain the presense of an extraordinary level of supplies and material, give him the chance to have pre-arranged supply dumps laid in along his route of advance, have diversionary attacks planned, basically everything but the movement orders written. The Tolkeen attack just sped up his timetable. This makes more sense, of course it's just not the way it was written.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

the Mark V/K Moblie Kitchen are normally one per 2 companys of 320 and can do 500 meals an hour would give holmes about 1250 of these, if holmes had some of those brutes with him the food and water would no problem and could be limited to one IRP and one canteen of water, which isnt the best for long term survival but given the conditions until IRP can be given until they run out or start running low

And the presense of such a critical support vehicle would do what to influence the actions of the troops when a random Xiticix patrol decided to attack? Maybe cause them to ignore Holmes orders and shot-to-kill? Thus instigating the killer swarm. This leaves aside the coincidence that such a large body of rear area support equipment just "happened" to be close by when Holmes retreated into the Hivelands.

that vechile is non-canon, so it doesnt matter much , yeah that never made sense if they port in both the combat lines and support line at the same time then the combat line could be pinched and destroyed in a cross fire, but this never happened, maybe tactics arent KS strong point, , But hey no one is perfect well maybe me

It occurs to me a better arguement for the por-Holmes side would be that he was planning a "great right-hook" through the Hivelands all along as part of a sneak attack to end the war. This would explain the presense of an extraordinary level of supplies and material, give him the chance to have pre-arranged supply dumps laid in along his route of advance, have diversionary attacks planned, basically everything but the movement orders written. The Tolkeen attack just sped up his timetable. This makes more sense, of course it's just not the way it was written.

sadly none of us could look into KS's head when he was doing this because if we could SOT would have been the hit KS maybe thought it was going to be

[Braden Campbell]

The Xiticix keep attacking any large group until all are slain, no matter how many of their warriors it takes to do it.
They don't back off.
They don't retreat.
If you were one of the 25% of the soldiers that got killed, I'm 1,000,000% certain that you'd open fire when the xiticix is trying to carry you off to the hive or is peeling open your armor with a megadamage xiticix can opener. Unless you were lobotomized temporarily for the trip there's NO WAY IN HEAVEN OR EARTH THAT THE SOLDIERS BEING BUTCHERED did not open fire. None. Not even a little chance. Not even a teeny tiny chance.
I don't care if the guy next to him, whose been his best friend for 10 years, decides not to open fire. The guy whose being made into a xiticix chew toy is going to shoot....repeatedly....

Oh, and on top of that, a large portion of the frontline troops are specifically stated as being dogboys and psi-stalkers. Yeah, no psi-stalkers or dogboys opened fire when the alien monsters were attacking....right....


And unless the contingent just happened to snag APCs full of supplies or turned to cannibalism which we haven't heard about, they'd have starved. They were in the hivelands for months. Even if the above occurred, they didn't have drinking water. Dead in a week. The hivelands are desolate wastes. And to get water from rivers they'd have to get out of the APCs and stock up...there are millions of xiticix trying to get at them in their "suddenly invulnerable to MDC weapons" APCs. What joker got the short straw to open the door and dunk a million convenient canteens into the river?


9 people or less, maximum, should have come out of the hivelands alive, under any circumstances. They should have been disheveled, half-crazed, starved, dehydrated, suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and incapable of attacking a Florida nursing home effectively.

Thanks, man.

I haven't laughed out loud like that at a post in a long time.

And for the record, everyone who went in should have died. Then the Prosek regime should have been overthrown... or at the least, Gen Charles Baxter (whom we never even heard of until CS War Campaign) should have been made the fall guy, and shot in the head on national TV.

Now, let's talk about why Larson's Brigade conveinently went 2000 miles away from the combat to attack Calgary, instead fo using those Air Castle Bombers of his to nuke the CS ground positions into radioacitve goo...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

look at SOT 3 and Tolkeen attack plans the first ten to 20 mintues is more focus on the aircraft, tanks power armor then the apcs and troops if modern soldiers can build bridges under heavy fire across a river then getting dress for battle and packing up the stuff in 10 minutes is not to far out on the limb(anybody who has ever been on alert in a combat unit can tell you it can be done

Oh yes, these invincible tanks, aircraft, and power armor that were not destroyed by the "concentrated" Tolkeen attack and managed to survive through a Xiticix swarm as well. I've noticed you never mention how those vehicles survived so easily. Because it makes little sense! Writer's fiat!

Comparing putting on a flak vest, helmet and grabbing your gun and pack (today's army) and putting on fully environmental armor, grabbing you pack and gun (Rifts army)? Doesn't it take more than a few minutes to put on your armor? Wasn't dressing times in one of the books? Unless everyone sleeps in their armor, which is probably possible, but aren't there penalties for doing such? Not to mention the chaos of organizing 400K people into the retreat, but they are trained military, so that shouldn't be too bad since Holmes is such a good leader.

Nobody, except you sarcastically, is saying they didn't have their armor and weapons with them as they fled, nor is anyone saying that troopers can't sleep in their vehicles. The point is 10 minutes isn't much time to get gear and get into the fight, only to be forced to retreat into the night. Did they wake up preparing to retreat? No, Holmes saw that Tolkeen was trying to force them into Xiticix territory and went with it. Was he clairvoyant? I don't remember seeing psionics in his stats. So why was everyone packing all their gear and as much food and water as possible if they didn't plan on instantly retreating? They could have had their packs ready, which is good military readiness, but the camp would not have been ready to roll out instantly!

well support would normally start to bug out to a fall back point, i mean what chance does a handful of military cooks have against a dragon, it stated 10-20 minutes meaning, depending on where you are at during the attack, you secure your gear and get ready to fight or retreat depending where you are at , and depends if the retreat has been called, its safe to say if your area doesnt have anything in the air and the air space is starting looking unfriendly, it time grab what you can and leave quickly, then you have units who havent been engaged and the order to retreat has been given and you have 20 minutes until they are on top of you. what to do? gather what supplies you can and then bug out ?or just bug out of the area ? I found it hard to believe the entire northern Coalition army was engaged at the same time, maybe if the tolkeens stay a few more second and not run away when the first xiticix showed up , holmes and his troops would be death, but nope but since this sneak attack ended up costing tolkeen 53% of their troops which means the coalition troopers opened some cans of whoop ass on them ,maybe holmes should have stayed and whip up on the tolkeens, but no.

Was he clairvoyant? I don't remember seeing psionics in his stats.

only where I wrote it in no, but odds are someone on his staff is or not butwe dont know about his staff , but hey if you and the gang here wants to come on over and help write characters sheets for every coalition soldiers, tolkeen and xiticix and play out the entire thing then we can see if holmes can lead his troops thru there.

remember a psi-net captian can get a vision about the sneak attack , doesnt know when but knows where and it going to happened soon, maybe the dogboys w/clairvoyance start getting more and more on edge, so the order goes out be ready to go at any time , means after the last meal the chuck wagon is packed up and is ready to move, and is every other vechile some of the bigger vechile are moved away, order is given everybody in full body armor until the order is cancelled.

Holmes strikes me as someone who would listern to his psi-troops if something odd is going on, i mean that is why they are there to help the normal troops against the supernatural.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The Xiticix keep attacking any large group until all are slain, no matter how many of their warriors it takes to do it.
They don't back off.
They don't retreat.
If you were one of the 25% of the soldiers that got killed, I'm 1,000,000% certain that you'd open fire when the xiticix is trying to carry you off to the hive or is peeling open your armor with a megadamage xiticix can opener. Unless you were lobotomized temporarily for the trip there's NO WAY IN HEAVEN OR EARTH THAT THE SOLDIERS BEING BUTCHERED did not open fire. None. Not even a little chance. Not even a teeny tiny chance.
I don't care if the guy next to him, whose been his best friend for 10 years, decides not to open fire. The guy whose being made into a xiticix chew toy is going to shoot....repeatedly....

Oh, and on top of that, a large portion of the frontline troops are specifically stated as being dogboys and psi-stalkers. Yeah, no psi-stalkers or dogboys opened fire when the alien monsters were attacking....right....


And unless the contingent just happened to snag APCs full of supplies or turned to cannibalism which we haven't heard about, they'd have starved. They were in the hivelands for months. Even if the above occurred, they didn't have drinking water. Dead in a week. The hivelands are desolate wastes. And to get water from rivers they'd have to get out of the APCs and stock up...there are millions of xiticix trying to get at them in their "suddenly invulnerable to MDC weapons" APCs. What joker got the short straw to open the door and dunk a million convenient canteens into the river?


9 people or less, maximum, should have come out of the hivelands alive, under any circumstances. They should have been disheveled, half-crazed, starved, dehydrated, suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and incapable of attacking a Florida nursing home effectively.

Thanks, man.

I haven't laughed out loud like that at a post in a long time.

And for the record, everyone who went in should have died. Then the Prosek regime should have been overthrown... or at the least, Gen Charles Baxter (whom we never even heard of until CS War Campaign) should have been made the fall guy, and shot in the head on national TV.

Now, let's talk about why Larson's Brigade conveinently went 2000 miles away from the combat to attack Calgary, instead fo using those Air Castle Bombers of his to nuke the CS ground positions into radioacitve goo...

personally i loved if larsen got into this, but wait he got losted

[tenakafurey]

There mere existence of an army of 400k would be the threat.

This is 50,000 times larger than the normal threshold to provoke a reaction by the Xiticix.

Which is where you and I differ.

Where you say:

"There is an army. It is a threat. We must attack until it is destroyed and so remove the threat."

I say:

"There is an army. It is a threat. We must attack it until the threat is gone."

Both mean the Xiticix will act to remove the threat. But the latter is in keeping with WB23s assertion that the Xiticix do not kill without need, and is also in line with the consistent thread running through that book that they tend not to attack those who they do not see as challenging or threatening them or the Hive.

In short, once Holmes proved he and his force wasn't a threat, there was no need to kill them.

EJL

[tenakafurey]

What part of "not firing back" makes sense to you people?

Not much. But if the troops in question have to watch the Xiticix attack, then swarm under anybody who fires to help him, they're soon going to learn restraint.

That'd be one possible scenario.

I already have stated earlier the possibility of moving out fast with your kit, but just because your COMBAT gear is next to you does NOT mean you have time to grab everything like extra food & water.

No, but it doesn't mean that the army isn't ready to move or redeploy, it doesn't mean that Holmes and the CS wasn't aware of the possibility of such an assault and it doesn't mean that Holmes didn't have time. Tolkeens plan was not to engage him in wholesale combat, but to force him back into the buglands.

How much time he had, how prepared he was and how quickly his troops responded is a matter of conjecture.

Mess vehicles will NOT be ready to go on a moment's notice (I've worked field messes before and they are most definitely not fast to deploy). My argument isn't that they can't grab their gear...it's that they CANNOT SURVIVE OFF RAINDROPS AND GOOD INTENTIONS. Holmes would've been killed in those 72 hours by other officers who thought he was putting them all to death. If not during the 72 hours, then during the MONTHS they were out there.

In the Buglands a couple of weeks. North of Tolkeen a few months. Still wilderness, but definitely more food...especially from the many abandoned towns, villages, farms, etc that dotted the area.

vehicles remained in pristine shape

They used parts from irrepairable vehicles to fix those that could be repaired. Those that were battered were saved till last during the attack. Or sent in first to soften up the defences, saving the stronger units to mop up.

And who said he attacked with pristine forces?

EJL

[Nxla666]

look at SOT 3 and Tolkeen attack plans the first ten to 20 mintues is more focus on the aircraft, tanks power armor then the apcs and troops if modern soldiers can build bridges under heavy fire across a river then getting dress for battle and packing up the stuff in 10 minutes is not to far out on the limb(anybody who has ever been on alert in a combat unit can tell you it can be done

Oh yes, these invincible tanks, aircraft, and power armor that were not destroyed by the "concentrated" Tolkeen attack and managed to survive through a Xiticix swarm as well. I've noticed you never mention how those vehicles survived so easily. Because it makes little sense! Writer's fiat!

Comparing putting on a flak vest, helmet and grabbing your gun and pack (today's army) and putting on fully environmental armor, grabbing you pack and gun (Rifts army)? Doesn't it take more than a few minutes to put on your armor? Wasn't dressing times in one of the books? Unless everyone sleeps in their armor, which is probably possible, but aren't there penalties for doing such? Not to mention the chaos of organizing 400K people into the retreat, but they are trained military, so that shouldn't be too bad since Holmes is such a good leader.

Nobody, except you sarcastically, is saying they didn't have their armor and weapons with them as they fled, nor is anyone saying that troopers can't sleep in their vehicles. The point is 10 minutes isn't much time to get gear and get into the fight, only to be forced to retreat into the night. Did they wake up preparing to retreat? No, Holmes saw that Tolkeen was trying to force them into Xiticix territory and went with it. Was he clairvoyant? I don't remember seeing psionics in his stats. So why was everyone packing all their gear and as much food and water as possible if they didn't plan on instantly retreating? They could have had their packs ready, which is good military readiness, but the camp would not have been ready to roll out instantly!

In regards to the armor question, the book states that a Man-at Arms class can suit up in enviromental armor in 1D4 melees, non Men-at-Arms take 1D4 minutes.

[Killer Cyborg]

Seriously, would a bunch of Xiticix bother half a million armed men? They probably will attack when they can gather sufficient numbers at a single spot.

Which would be extremely fast.
I've already addressed the numbers.

How can that be? They will have to move over a huge area to congregate in one spot, no?

The Warriors fly at 105 mph.
How far was Holmes from the Hive?

[Killer Cyborg]

In short, once Holmes proved he and his force wasn't a threat, there was no need to kill them.

EJL

You still haven't explained why xiticix would feel threatened by fleeing cattle enough to kill them, but not threatened by a large Coalition army.

[demos606]

Cattle arent smart enough to actively avoid the hive mounds, Holmes would be.

[Killer Cyborg]

Cattle arent smart enough to actively avoid the hive mounds, Holmes would be.

There's nothing about them being close to the mounds in the book.
Any group of 8+ people or animals are considered a threat.
The fact that cattle have been targeted and slaughtered by the bugs shows that running away doesn't matter, and not shooting back doesn't matter.

[grandmaster z0b]

Cattle arent smart enough to actively avoid the hive mounds, Holmes would be.

Then wouldn't the example state that Xiticix attack large animals that stray too close to the hive mounds?

[tenakafurey]

You still haven't explained why xiticix would feel threatened by fleeing cattle enough to kill them, but not threatened by a large Coalition army.

A challenge to their territory and said to be perceived by the Xiticix as an unwanted gathering of alien lifeforms - a gathering that often stops to eat. And stopping is a no-no to the Xiticix, and something Holmes didn't do. And they were often killed as an act of harrassment, to drive out the previous settlers.

As it is, WB23 shows they don't care about sentience or whether you are armed or not or age or anything like that. They care if you challenge them them, or threaten them.

It took 72 hours to apparently convince them Holmes wasn't a threat. But once that seemed to have occurred, they left him alone.

They are said not to kill without need and indeed, they usually let competing groups leave.

They did not need to kill Holmes, for Holmes was not challenging them, he was not perceived as a threat (anymore) and he was leaving.

WB23 tells us the Xiticix do not kill without need, that they are usally content to let an enemy move away/retreat and shows that there is a consistent thread where they fight in reaction to a challenge (theirs or the foes) or a threat.

On all of these, Holmes can be said to have passed.

EJL

[tenakafurey]

Cattle arent smart enough to actively avoid the hive mounds, Holmes would be.

There's nothing about them being close to the mounds in the book.
Any group of 8+ people or animals are considered a threat.
The fact that cattle have been targeted and slaughtered by the bugs shows that running away doesn't matter, and not shooting back doesn't matter.

No, it shows that, as a group, they usually don't last 72 hours or so without provoking the Xiticix.

EJL

[grandmaster z0b]

You still haven't explained why xiticix would feel threatened by fleeing cattle enough to kill them, but not threatened by a large Coalition army.

A challenge to their territory and said to be perceived by the Xiticix as an unwanted gathering of alien lifeforms - a gathering that often stops to eat. And stopping is a no-no to the Xiticix, and something Holmes didn't do. And they were often killed as an act of harrassment, to drive out the previous settlers.

Huh? How could an army march without stopping? Surely they must sleep or eat at some stage, in any case they did stop;

i suggest you reread SOT5 page 110 and the 200 miles a day is based on 25miles in 3 hours counting in breaks so for 72 road marched the range is 600, that put them way out of range off any hiveland,

As it is, WB23 shows they don't care about sentience or whether you are armed or not or age or anything like that. They care if you challenge them them, or threaten them.

It took 72 hours to apparently convince them Holmes wasn't a threat. But once that seemed to have occurred, they left him alone.

They are said not to kill without need and indeed, they usually let competing groups leave.

They did not need to kill Holmes, for Holmes was not challenging them, he was not perceived as a threat (anymore) and he was leaving.

WB23 tells us the Xiticix do not kill without need, that they are usally content to let an enemy move away/retreat and shows that there is a consistent thread where they fight in reaction to a challenge (theirs or the foes) or a threat.

On all of these, Holmes can be said to have passed.

EJL

Why would they decide Holmes wasn't a threat when they consider grazing cows to be a threat.

Cows could stand there eating and the Xiticix would decide they were a threat but an army of 400 000 wasn't? So if they were MDC cows that didn't fight back but kept grazing the Xiticix would have left them alone?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Huh? How could an army march without stopping? Surely they must sleep or eat at some stage, in any case they did stop;
Why would they decide Holmes wasn't a threat when they consider grazing cows to be a threat.

Future Modern Military Baby, with everybody inside a vechile, who needs to stop.

Cows could stand there eating and the Xiticix would decide they were a threat but an army of 400 000 wasn't? So if they were MDC cows that didn't fight back but kept grazing the Xiticix would have left them alone?

the herd of cattle grazing there as seen as a challenging the xiticix just because of the fact they are standing there, once again for the slow kids out there
Movement is key with dealing with the Xiticix, stopping to do anything that takes more the 3 mintues is seen as a challenage to them, that means if you drop your pants to take a dump and pee you dam well better make it quick or you will not need to wipe or shake the dew from the lily.

While Holmes enter the Xiticx hiveland with a big size group, he never did anything to challenage them, he kept moving and did only defensive moves poke, jab, swat, as well as smoke.

[grandmaster z0b]

Huh? How could an army march without stopping? Surely they must sleep or eat at some stage, in any case they did stop;
Why would they decide Holmes wasn't a threat when they consider grazing cows to be a threat.

Future Modern Military Baby, with everybody inside a vechile, who needs to stop.

Cows could stand there eating and the Xiticix would decide they were a threat but an army of 400 000 wasn't? So if they were MDC cows that didn't fight back but kept grazing the Xiticix would have left them alone?

the herd of cattle grazing there as seen as a challenging the xiticix just because of the fact they are standing there, once again for the slow kids out there
Movement is key with dealing with the Xiticix, stopping to do anything that takes more the 3 mintues is seen as a challenage to them, that means if you drop your pants to take a dump and pee you dam well better make it quick or you will not need to wipe or shake the dew from the lily.

While Holmes enter the Xiticx hiveland with a big size group, he never did anything to challenage them, he kept moving and did only defensive moves poke, jab, swat, as well as smoke.

Hmm I must add the phrase "Future Modern" to my list of military oxymorons.

Anyway I'll rebut you by quoting you

i suggest you reread SOT5 page 110 and the 200 miles a day is based on 25miles in 3 hours counting in breaks so for 72 road marched the range is 600, that put them way out of range off any hiveland,

They took breaks.

It's yet another unbelievable prospect that an army of 400 000 could all pile into vehicles so that none ever had to stop. I presume they all slept in shifts and the entire army never stopped.

Ludicrous.

How long were they there? They never stopped to set up camp? There was enough room for them all to sleep at some stage and remain combat effective?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Huh? How could an army march without stopping? Surely they must sleep or eat at some stage, in any case they did stop;
Why would they decide Holmes wasn't a threat when they consider grazing cows to be a threat.

Future Modern Military Baby, with everybody inside a vechile, who needs to stop.

Cows could stand there eating and the Xiticix would decide they were a threat but an army of 400 000 wasn't? So if they were MDC cows that didn't fight back but kept grazing the Xiticix would have left them alone?

the herd of cattle grazing there as seen as a challenging the xiticix just because of the fact they are standing there, once again for the slow kids out there
Movement is key with dealing with the Xiticix, stopping to do anything that takes more the 3 mintues is seen as a challenage to them, that means if you drop your pants to take a dump and pee you dam well better make it quick or you will not need to wipe or shake the dew from the lily.

While Holmes enter the Xiticx hiveland with a big size group, he never did anything to challenage them, he kept moving and did only defensive moves poke, jab, swat, as well as smoke.

Hmm I must add the phrase "Future Modern" to my list of military oxymorons.

Anyway I'll rebut you by quoting you

i suggest you reread SOT5 page 110 and the 200 miles a day is based on 25miles in 3 hourscounting in breaks so for 72 road marched the range is 600, that put them way out of range off any hiveland,

They took breaks.

It's yet another unbelievable prospect that an army of 400 000 could all pile into vehicles so that none ever had to stop. I presume they all slept in shifts and the entire army never stopped.

Ludicrous.

How long were they there? They never stopped to set up camp? There was enough room for them all to sleep at some stage and remain combat effective?

ok i never said that they took breaks , i said the 200 miles a day is based on 25miles in 3 hours counting in breaks,meaning the model I was using counted breaks into it and I'm not saying they took breaks not in the 72 hrs. As for the amount of vechiles, we dont know what vechiles they had , so depending on the vechiles they had it could be done.

under the watch for eyes of the xiticix 21-24 days( and i have my own problems with this) , nope , depending on the vechile, since only the pilot needs room to drive, not saying the ride would comfortable , that might have taken shifts standing and sleeping , that a few more you can shove in there and samas pilots staying inside the armor. so you can have soldiers lying across other soldiers , in makeshift hammocks, belt type holders to free up some floor space.

[grandmaster z0b]

Huh? How could an army march without stopping? Surely they must sleep or eat at some stage, in any case they did stop;
Why would they decide Holmes wasn't a threat when they consider grazing cows to be a threat.

Future Modern Military Baby, with everybody inside a vechile, who needs to stop.

Cows could stand there eating and the Xiticix would decide they were a threat but an army of 400 000 wasn't? So if they were MDC cows that didn't fight back but kept grazing the Xiticix would have left them alone?

the herd of cattle grazing there as seen as a challenging the xiticix just because of the fact they are standing there, once again for the slow kids out there
Movement is key with dealing with the Xiticix, stopping to do anything that takes more the 3 mintues is seen as a challenage to them, that means if you drop your pants to take a dump and pee you dam well better make it quick or you will not need to wipe or shake the dew from the lily.

While Holmes enter the Xiticx hiveland with a big size group, he never did anything to challenage them, he kept moving and did only defensive moves poke, jab, swat, as well as smoke.

Hmm I must add the phrase "Future Modern" to my list of military oxymorons.

Anyway I'll rebut you by quoting you

i suggest you reread SOT5 page 110 and the 200 miles a day is based on 25miles in 3 hourscounting in breaks so for 72 road marched the range is 600, that put them way out of range off any hiveland,

They took breaks.

It's yet another unbelievable prospect that an army of 400 000 could all pile into vehicles so that none ever had to stop. I presume they all slept in shifts and the entire army never stopped.

Ludicrous.

How long were they there? They never stopped to set up camp? There was enough room for them all to sleep at some stage and remain combat effective?

ok i never said that they took breaks , i said the 200 miles a day is based on 25miles in 3 hours counting in breaks,meaning the model I was using counted breaks into it and I'm not saying they took breaks not in the 72 hrs. As for the amount of vechiles, we dont know what vechiles they had , so depending on the vechiles they had it could be done.

under the watch for eyes of the xiticix 21-24 days( and i have my own problems with this) , nope , depending on the vechile, since only the pilot needs room to drive, not saying the ride would comfortable , that might have taken shifts standing and sleeping , that a few more you can shove in there and samas pilots staying inside the armor. so you can have soldiers lying across other soldiers , in makeshift hammocks, belt type holders to free up some floor space.

It's possible but again really, really unplausible. I just find it all to be far too contrived.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Just one thing to point out. Not every CS soldier has Pilot: APC....

As a matter of fact, very few do. What happens when the Robot pilots, tank & APC drivers, and the SAMAS pilots get tired? Put a brick on the accelerator and just keep on truckin'?

then again how many soldiers need to have the skill in a apc cramped with soldiers 4 maybe each driving 6 hour shifts or 6 for 4 hour shifts.
you can switch position
vechiles with a pilots and co-pilots the switch is easy , new co-pilot takes the place of the co-pilot as the co-pilot moves to the pilot seat and pilot goes to get some rest, wash rinse repeat.
vechiles with 2 crewmen hopefully there is a 3 or 4 person if that is room , but the switch could be done, depending on the vechile, it might get tricky.Samas would be grounded , so hitching a ride on a ground vechile or get picked up by a larger robot vechile

[Mech-Viper Prime]

It's possible but again really, really unplausible. I just find it all to be far too contrived.

what the 200 miles a day

[grandmaster z0b]

It's possible but again really, really unplausible. I just find it all to be far too contrived.

what the 200 miles a day

The fact that 400 000 troops all fitted into vehicles and they never stopped, not even once to survey the land and decide which direction to travel or to wait for others or to shore up their ranks etc. etc.

Mech you have become an excuse machine to explain this. You could say DEUS EX MECHVIPER (yes I know that mean "god from Mech Viper" but it sounded cool and deus ex machina means "god from the machine" anyway which has little to do with the meaning of the phrase).