Was Holmes' stunt possible?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

It's possible but again really, really unplausible. I just find it all to be far too contrived.

what the 200 miles a day

The fact that 400 000 troops all fitted into vehicles and they never stopped, not even once to survey the land and decide which direction to travel or to wait for others or to shore up their ranks etc. etc.

Mech you have become an excuse machine to explain this. You could say DEUS EX MECHVIPER (yes I know that mean "god from Mech Viper" but it sounded cool and deus ex machina means "god from the machine" anyway which has little to do with the meaning of the phrase).

why survey the area has been mapped out, coalition has been in the area few years now so maps were are avaible to coalition. for the 400,000 troops depending on the vechiles, I'm sure holmes started the trek with more vechile then he finished with. as being the Excuse machine for this , why because i can see this being pulled off, only because i know there are alot of other factors that come into play that most roleplayers overlook like weather being one.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You do realize that co-pilots have a job too and they don't just sit there collecting dust, right?

yes the person coming on for his shift takes over co-pilot as the co-pilot moves to the pilot slot

Then you have the issue of tanks. 1 driver, 3 crewmembers. You didn't answer how those will continue to go on.

since i dont think the coalition tanks are built like the US tanks, but depending how the interior is designed thwe same way the apc crew is switching slots the tank crew can do to

As for the APC's, that means that you've got 2-3 drivers per vehicle. Even if there were suddenly space available due to the most retarded infantry the world has ever known following the biggest dumbass ever conceived, the APC's being driven (by the drivers suddenly shoved 3 drivers per vehicle) would be leaving behind a long trail of APC's. After all, miraculously almost none of Holmes' vehicles were damaged. If they had been damaged, that would've meant stopping for repairs in X-land and that goes against your entire theory.

run them until they stop or break down or blow up, , yes i have been in a couple of tanks that had their turrets held up by a chain hoist and a steel bar, my old battalion commander was impressed with it , and said it was good thinking for a probelm in the field and would be useful in combat , but for safety the tank was ordered to the motor pool to be fixed , along with a list of other problems, so a vechile doesnt have to be in 100% shape to be in combat, you learn to adapt to the problem if you can fix it on the go, you fit it if not run it until it breaks down, then deal with that problem when it happens and have a plan to move along to place the troops insideand what ever supplies another apc needs, may it be food , water , ammo, medical supplies , parts , then toss a few grenades into the apc as you exit

Now you've got a big old line of APC's and other vehicles being abandoned in order to maintain a constant shift of red-eyed drivers. Tolkeen's not supposed to even notice this?

red-eyes drivers? right as long as the driver able to rest and get a some hours of sleeps and able to rotate then its no problem and with a apc full of grunt s there is no shortage of driversas for mechs like the UAR-1 Enforcers, then them SOBs are so SOL, 12 on 12 off pilot and gunner switch spots

Again, this stunt is not possible.

again, why?becsause you cant believe its not possible

[Prince Artemis]

actually, you'd only need a few drivers for every few vehicals beleive it or not. If you look at the designs for the apcs that have four rather larger couplers(2 on the front, 2 on the back). You could actually, very easily create an apc train. Atleast that's what i assume that they are for, it was meant as just a place to hook something for towing, why are there two on the front of every apc?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

now here is my problems with this

the xiticix dont need to eat, 72 hrs and then 3 weeks with out food, so glad of that

24 days is a long time to be trekking around the xiticix hivelands

[ShadowLogan]

I have to agree with Mecha-viper here, this stunt is possible the real sticking point is food/water.

Here's a question, how do the xiticix respond to abandoned vehicles or parties "playing dead"?

Going slow through the hive lands would allow them to "play dead" much easier. You have lookouts, if they spot a bug party off in the distance. The convoy comes to a stop and shuts down. By the time the xiticix get up close and personal they find big hunks of metal on their lawn...

[tenakafurey]

Huh? How could an army march without stopping? Surely they must sleep or eat at some stage, in any case they did stop;

You move the convoy at a walking pace, and you take turns to drive, ride or walk. And then don't stop for more than two or three minutes at a time.

Why would they decide Holmes wasn't a threat when they consider grazing cows to be a threat.

The obvious answer is they don't. But then again, cows don't leave, they stay still, and they're going to fight back when attacked. All of which the Xiticix view as a challenge by any lifeform. And none of which Holmes "broke".

Cows could stand there eating and the Xiticix would decide they were a threat but an army of 400 000 wasn't? So if they were MDC cows that didn't fight back but kept grazing the Xiticix would have left them alone?

Ask them after 72 hours.

EJL

[Killer Cyborg]

Cattle arent smart enough to actively avoid the hive mounds, Holmes would be.

There's nothing about them being close to the mounds in the book.
Any group of 8+ people or animals are considered a threat.
The fact that cattle have been targeted and slaughtered by the bugs shows that running away doesn't matter, and not shooting back doesn't matter.

No, it shows that, as a group, they usually don't last 72 hours or so without provoking the Xiticix.

EJL

The only provokation is that the cattle are "percieved by the xiticix as an intruding gathering of unwanted life forms".

[Killer Cyborg]

the herd of cattle grazing there as seen as a challenging the xiticix just because of the fact they are standing there, once again for the slow kids out there

Here's a clue:
When that first cow is killed, the other cattle will stop grazing and they will run. They will not pull out guns and shoot at the xiticix or otherwise provoke them.
Perhaps you are not well versed in the ways of cattle, but believe me when I tell you that this is true.

And the bugs shoot the fleeing, non-aggressive cattle too, killing them all.
Just like they do with fleeing, non-aggressive humans.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have to agree with Mecha-viper here, this stunt is possible the real sticking point is food/water.

Here's a question, how do the xiticix respond to abandoned vehicles or parties "playing dead"?

Going slow through the hive lands would allow them to "play dead" much easier. You have lookouts, if they spot a bug party off in the distance. The convoy comes to a stop and shuts down. By the time the xiticix get up close and personal they find big hunks of metal on their lawn...

XI, p. 10
Xiticix tear apart alien structures in their territory.

[Killer Cyborg]

cows don't leave, they stay still, and they're going to fight back when attacked. All of which the Xiticix view as a challenge by any lifeform. And none of which Holmes "broke".

Explain the part about the cattle fighting back when attacked.
The bugs approach in the air, they shoot at the cattle, a cow or two explodes, and the rest.... what?
Pull out Bovinator Railguns and return fire?

Nope.
When startled/attacked, cows run. It's their nature. It's called a "stampede". They run like hell, without looking back, and without returning fire.
And the bugs kill them anyway.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Why would they decide Holmes wasn't a threat when they consider grazing cows to be a threat.

The obvious answer is they don't. But then again, cows don't leave, they stay still, and they're going to fight back when attacked. All of which the Xiticix view as a challenge by any lifeform. And none of which Holmes "broke".

So the CS troops defensively striking back with swats, hits, and whatever aren't considered fighting back? Even when they would be just as effective as a cow fighting back except the cows get slaughtered? That doesn't make sense.

Even if the CS didn't fire or use MDC weapons (which I find highly unlikely) they were still fighting back even if they weren't doing damage.

Sorry, I still haven't seen a good explanation for the move through Xiticix territory. If they're all in vehicles then the vehicles get mauled and break down, yet they obviously were not or they wouldn't have had to defensively swat away the bugs. If they are on top of the vehicles, then the vehicles and the people get mauled because the people on top are still fighting back by swatting away the bugs. That could account for the 25% loss in manpower, but the lack of vehicle loss bothers me. We're probably supposed to assume that it happened, but another page should have been written with better detail IMO.

I could see the bugs not following them after they left the domain of the hive, but that didn't happen for 72 hours. My problem is seeing them survive, with plenty vehicles intact, after 72 hours of even sporadic attacks.

holmes loses 25 of his troops and armor( now if the means robot, PA, Robot Vechiles , vechiles, and aircraft),

Ok Zylo, i dont think the vechiles came out with a couple dents and scratched , i think they come out look like they went thru hell with doors held in place with chains or cyborgs or super samas that is now the door ,and that door is leaking its fluids on the ground, and each every piece of armor is beat up, so when the time to attack Tolkeen comes around i bet holmes group looked like a patch work from hell and the Tolkeenies know who it is and are in shock and awe because of it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

cows don't leave, they stay still, and they're going to fight back when attacked. All of which the Xiticix view as a challenge by any lifeform. And none of which Holmes "broke".

Explain the part about the cattle fighting back when attacked.
The bugs approach in the air, they shoot at the cattle, a cow or two explodes, and the rest.... what?
Pull out Bovinator Railguns and return fire?

Nope.
When startled/attacked, cows run. It's their nature. It's called a "stampede". They run like hell, without looking back, and without returning fire.
And the bugs kill them anyway.

why does the xiticix have to shot is it the only weapons they have, I think of the Xiticix more of as silent killer vs the gun toting shot up the town bug types, why wouldnt they just drop right down on top of them and kill them? i swear you all just think they have TK-rifle so 100% of them must use it all the time

[Mech-Viper Prime]

the herd of cattle grazing there as seen as a challenging the xiticix just because of the fact they are standing there, once again for the slow kids out there

Here's a clue:
When that first cow is killed, the other cattle will stop grazing and they will run. They will not pull out guns and shoot at the xiticix or otherwise provoke them.
Perhaps you are not well versed in the ways of cattle, but believe me when I tell you that this is true.

And the bugs shoot the fleeing, non-aggressive cattle too, killing them all.
Just like they do with fleeing, non-aggressive humans.

and that the problem you think they are going in there shooting up the place like drunk cowboys

now here is your clue
Xiticix are silent killers and not gun toting cowboys

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Cattle arent smart enough to actively avoid the hive mounds, Holmes would be.

There's nothing about them being close to the mounds in the book.
Any group of 8+ people or animals are considered a threat.
The fact that cattle have been targeted and slaughtered by the bugs shows that running away doesn't matter, and not shooting back doesn't matter.

No, it shows that, as a group, they usually don't last 72 hours or so without provoking the Xiticix.

EJL

The only provokation is that the cattle are "percieved by the xiticix as an intruding gathering of unwanted life forms".

yup, unwanted rivals setting up camp in xiticix hiveland and even then they give warning signs to leave, much like a group of bees buzz you when you get to close to their area

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I have to agree with Mecha-viper here, this stunt is possible the real sticking point is food/water.

Here's a question, how do the xiticix respond to abandoned vehicles or parties "playing dead"?

Going slow through the hive lands would allow them to "play dead" much easier. You have lookouts, if they spot a bug party off in the distance. The convoy comes to a stop and shuts down. By the time the xiticix get up close and personal they find big hunks of metal on their lawn...

XI, p. 10
Xiticix tear apart alien structures in their territory.

yup that is what they do, hooray we agree on something well its a start

[cornholioprime]

Here's a clue:
When that first cow is killed, the other cattle will stop grazing and they will run. They will not pull out guns and shoot at the xiticix or otherwise provoke them.
Perhaps you are not well versed in the ways of cattle, but believe me when I tell you that this is true.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Wow! Heavy stuffs! Martial skills of cattles?! They have what? The Way of the Cow-Dung. The Techniques of milk shooting.....

between mutant cattle and minotaurs, a cow with a railgun is not a friendly sight

[Killer Cyborg]

The bugs approach in the air, they shoot at the cattle, a cow or two explodes, and the rest.... what?
Pull out Bovinator Railguns and return fire?

With powercreep these days...

[Killer Cyborg]

the herd of cattle grazing there as seen as a challenging the xiticix just because of the fact they are standing there, once again for the slow kids out there

Here's a clue:
When that first cow is killed, the other cattle will stop grazing and they will run. They will not pull out guns and shoot at the xiticix or otherwise provoke them.
Perhaps you are not well versed in the ways of cattle, but believe me when I tell you that this is true.

And the bugs shoot the fleeing, non-aggressive cattle too, killing them all.
Just like they do with fleeing, non-aggressive humans.

and that the problem you think they are going in there shooting up the place like drunk cowboys

now here is your clue
Xiticix are silent killers and not gun toting cowboys

Standard xiticix tactics when attacking are to "attack first with their TK rifles, firing as they close the range to the enemy... Once they reach melee range, they change to spears, bayonets, and swords..."

[Killer Cyborg]

why does the xiticix have to shot is it the only weapons they have, I think of the Xiticix more of as silent killer vs the gun toting shot up the town bug types, why wouldnt they just drop right down on top of them and kill them? i swear you all just think they have TK-rifle so 100% of them must use it all the time

They're not ninjas, but let's use your scenario.

The Xiticix fly up to the cattle, the buzzing of their wings alerting the cows to the bugs presense. The cattle panic and run. The cattle do NOT return fire.
The bugs kill them anyway, whipping out their paired ninja-to and swiftly severing each cows' head.

The cows still don't fight back. They still try to run. The bugs still kill them.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

the herd of cattle grazing there as seen as a challenging the xiticix just because of the fact they are standing there, once again for the slow kids out there

Here's a clue:
When that first cow is killed, the other cattle will stop grazing and they will run. They will not pull out guns and shoot at the xiticix or otherwise provoke them.
Perhaps you are not well versed in the ways of cattle, but believe me when I tell you that this is true.

And the bugs shoot the fleeing, non-aggressive cattle too, killing them all.
Just like they do with fleeing, non-aggressive humans.

and that the problem you think they are going in there shooting up the place like drunk cowboys

now here is your clue
Xiticix are silent killers and not gun toting cowboys

Standard xiticix tactics when attacking are to "attack first with their TK rifles, firing as they close the range to the enemy... Once they reach melee range, they change to spears, bayonets, and swords..."

yes because they all carry golf bags to hold their weapons


warriors
a third carry tw-weapon
super warriors
a quarter carry tw-weapon
leaper/assassin
prefer melee to range
hunter
prefer melee to range
sorry not getting the sense of the Xiticix as gun toting bugs, more of a sneak up on you type

[Mech-Viper Prime]

why does the xiticix have to shot is it the only weapons they have, I think of the Xiticix more of as silent killer vs the gun toting shot up the town bug types, why wouldnt they just drop right down on top of them and kill them? i swear you all just think they have TK-rifle so 100% of them must use it all the time

They're not ninjas, but let's use your scenario.

The Xiticix fly up to the cattle, the buzzing of their wings alerting the cows to the bugs presense. The cattle panic and run. The cattle do NOT return fire.
The bugs kill them anyway, whipping out their paired ninja-to and swiftly severing each cows' head.

The cows still don't fight back. They still try to run. The bugs still kill them.

so if you sneak you're a ninja now ok, wow everybody with prowl is a ninja,

Idea for a new movie Ninja Xiticix goto Cow town

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Bugs buzz when they fly...

yes' sir you are right about that unless they are dressed as ninjas like KC thinks

[Killer Cyborg]

so if you sneak you're a ninja now ok, wow everybody with prowl is a ninja,

It makes more sense than "anybody who fires a weapon is a drunken cowboy."

[Mech-Viper Prime]

so if you sneak you're a ninja now ok, wow everybody with prowl is a ninja,

It makes more sense than "anybody who fires a weapon is a drunken cowboy."

sure in your mind

[Killer Cyborg]

the herd of cattle grazing there as seen as a challenging the xiticix just because of the fact they are standing there, once again for the slow kids out there

Here's a clue:
When that first cow is killed, the other cattle will stop grazing and they will run. They will not pull out guns and shoot at the xiticix or otherwise provoke them.
Perhaps you are not well versed in the ways of cattle, but believe me when I tell you that this is true.

And the bugs shoot the fleeing, non-aggressive cattle too, killing them all.
Just like they do with fleeing, non-aggressive humans.

and that the problem you think they are going in there shooting up the place like drunk cowboys

now here is your clue
Xiticix are silent killers and not gun toting cowboys

Standard xiticix tactics when attacking are to "attack first with their TK rifles, firing as they close the range to the enemy... Once they reach melee range, they change to spears, bayonets, and swords..."

yes because they all carry golf bags to hold their weapons


warriors
a third carry tw-weapon
super warriors
a quarter carry tw-weapon
leaper/assassin
prefer melee to range
hunter
prefer melee to range
sorry not getting the sense of the Xiticix as gun toting bugs, more of a sneak up on you type

When the book describes cow-slaughter, it's in the context of bands of Warriors and Hunters.
I'm quoting the description of how Warrior attack.

In the case of Hunters, it would still be "Hunters attack, cows panic and run, Cows do NOT attack back, and the bugs kill them anyway."

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Sigh,..... after so many pages and it is still nonsense

]Holmes' stunt was not impossible...improbable, but not impossible.

I have seen many ways as to how he could have pulled it off.

~ Josh

Much like Josh, I see many of ways this could have been pull off, but since there are no real details about expect he did this and that. its leaves alot to be factored in which some dont like.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

the herd of cattle grazing there as seen as a challenging the xiticix just because of the fact they are standing there, once again for the slow kids out there

Here's a clue:
When that first cow is killed, the other cattle will stop grazing and they will run. They will not pull out guns and shoot at the xiticix or otherwise provoke them.
Perhaps you are not well versed in the ways of cattle, but believe me when I tell you that this is true.

And the bugs shoot the fleeing, non-aggressive cattle too, killing them all.
Just like they do with fleeing, non-aggressive humans.

and that the problem you think they are going in there shooting up the place like drunk cowboys

now here is your clue
Xiticix are silent killers and not gun toting cowboys

Standard xiticix tactics when attacking are to "attack first with their TK rifles, firing as they close the range to the enemy... Once they reach melee range, they change to spears, bayonets, and swords..."

yes because they all carry golf bags to hold their weapons


warriors
a third carry tw-weapon
super warriors
a quarter carry tw-weapon
leaper/assassin
prefer melee to range
hunter
prefer melee to range
sorry not getting the sense of the Xiticix as gun toting bugs, more of a sneak up on you type

When the book describes cow-slaughter, it's in the context of bands of Warriors and Hunters.
I'm quoting the description of how Warrior attack.

In the case of Hunters, it would still be "Hunters attack, cows panic and run, Cows do NOT attack back, and the bugs kill them anyway."

wow i see swarm , swoop down, kill every man, woman and child, , later words like stab, jab, punch scratch and bite

there a shot ..................wait its talking about down tunnels wait raining tw bolts down on people and buildings

wow the Hunter is said to used prowl to get in close to scout enemy camps and get into city to assess their strength and weakness then silently get back out meaning Stealth

[Killer Cyborg]

In the case of Hunters, it would still be "Hunters attack, cows panic and run, Cows do NOT attack back, and the bugs kill them anyway."

wow i see swarm , swoop down, kill every man, woman and child, , later words like stab, jab, punch scratch and bite

there a shot ..................wait its talking about down tunnels wait raining tw bolts down on people and buildings

wow the Hunter is said to used prowl to get in close to scout enemy camps and get into city to assess their strength and weakness then silently get back out meaning Stealth

Garbled to the point of incomprehensibility or not, your response doesn't change the fact that the xiticix are shown to kill fleeing opponents who are not fighting back.

[Nxla666]

Hmm, just a thought, perhaps KS left the massive gaps in the plot for GMs to fill...no, he wouldnt have done that because apparently everyone needs everything clearly spelled out and ordered to find satisfaction with PB products.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Hmm, just a thought, perhaps KS left the massive gaps in the plot for GMs to fill...no, he wouldnt have done that because apparently everyone needs everything clearly spelled out and ordered to find satisfaction with PB products.

I guess some really do

[Mech-Viper Prime]

In the case of Hunters, it would still be "Hunters attack, cows panic and run, Cows do NOT attack back, and the bugs kill them anyway."

wow i see swarm , swoop down, kill every man, woman and child, , later words like stab, jab, punch scratch and bite

there a shot ..................wait its talking about down tunnels wait raining tw bolts down on people and buildings

wow the Hunter is said to used prowl to get in close to scout enemy camps and get into city to assess their strength and weakness then silently get back out meaning Stealth

Garbled to the point of incomprehensibility or not, your response doesn't change the fact that the xiticix are shown to kill fleeing opponents who are not fighting back.

never said they didnt
and they give warnings too and if beat one in a challenge its will buy you 10 hours of peace and the challenge may or may not be to the death

[Killer Cyborg]

In the case of Hunters, it would still be "Hunters attack, cows panic and run, Cows do NOT attack back, and the bugs kill them anyway."

wow i see swarm , swoop down, kill every man, woman and child, , later words like stab, jab, punch scratch and bite

there a shot ..................wait its talking about down tunnels wait raining tw bolts down on people and buildings

wow the Hunter is said to used prowl to get in close to scout enemy camps and get into city to assess their strength and weakness then silently get back out meaning Stealth

Garbled to the point of incomprehensibility or not, your response doesn't change the fact that the xiticix are shown to kill fleeing opponents who are not fighting back.

never said they didnt
and they give warnings too and if beat one in a challenge its will buy you 10 hours of peace and the challenge may or may not be to the death

The Challenge only applies to small groups.
Larger groups are swarmed by 2x their own number.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hmm, just a thought, perhaps KS left the massive gaps in the plot for GMs to fill...no, he wouldnt have done that because apparently everyone needs everything clearly spelled out and ordered to find satisfaction with PB products.

We're not asking for the names of every one of Holmes' soldiers.
We're pointing out that the written behavior of Xiticix in XI contradicts their behavior in SoT, and we're pointing out that the lack of food/water would make such a journey impossible.

There is a difference between pointing out flaws and in asking for gaps in description to be filled.

Heck, I'd be happier if the books just said, "Holmes somehow managed to escape and sneak behind Tolkeen later."
At least that wouldn't be contradicting established rules and the laws of physics.

[Killer Cyborg]

As for the cattle thing... The cattle don't get much of a chance to make a show of not fighting back. Sure they run away, but it's really only going to take a few seconds for an angry swarm of Xiticix to slaughter a herd of cattle.

That is true, but I think that the same would apply to Holmes and his men.
Depending on how many xiticix came to that initial party.
You can argue that the bugs would only attack in groups of a dozen or less at a time, but I don't buy it.

[grandmaster z0b]

[We're not asking for the names of every one of Holmes' soldiers.
We're pointing out that the written behavior of Xiticix in XI contradicts their behavior in SoT, and we're pointing out that the lack of food/water would make such a journey impossible.

There is a difference between pointing out flaws and in asking for gaps in description to be filled.

Heck, I'd be happier if the books just said, "Holmes somehow managed to escape and sneak behind Tolkeen later."
At least that wouldn't be contradicting established rules and the laws of physics.

That's how I feel about it too.

I would rather have it explained in a manner than makes sense with the applicable information instead of having big blanks and inconsistent behavior key to success.

Reminds me of a cartoon, the one that says "I think you should be more explicit here in step two."

:lol:

[tenakafurey]

So the CS troops defensively striking back with swats, hits, and whatever aren't considered fighting back? Even when they would be just as effective as a cow fighting back except the cows get slaughtered? That doesn't make sense.

Not if they were doing it in self defence. That would be a reaction...not a provocation. And yes, cattle fighting back would be in the same category...just as they're lumped in with challengers by staying still, making them attack worthy.

Sorry, I still haven't seen a good explanation for the move through Xiticix territory. If they're all in vehicles then the vehicles get mauled and break down, yet they obviously were not or they wouldn't have had to defensively swat away the bugs. If they are on top of the vehicles, then the vehicles and the people get mauled because the people on top are still fighting back by swatting away the bugs. That could account for the 25% loss in manpower, but the lack of vehicle loss bothers me. We're probably supposed to assume that it happened, but another page should have been written with better detail IMO.

As you say, who said vehicle loss never happened? As it is, 25% losses over 3 days suggest, as someone else said, a salt and pepper type attack....an assault here, an attack there, all scattered throughout the column...rather than a mass, all at once attack.

I could see the bugs not following them after they left the domain of the hive, but that didn't happen for 72 hours. My problem is seeing them survive, with plenty vehicles intact, after 72 hours of even sporadic attacks.

Sporadic attacks seem to have been involved. As it is...who is to say he didn't lose plenty of vehicles?

EJL

[tenakafurey]

Garbled to the point of incomprehensibility or not, your response doesn't change the fact that the xiticix are shown to kill fleeing opponents who are not fighting back.

After months of harassment intended to get them to leave.

EJL

[grandmaster z0b]

Garbled to the point of incomprehensibility or not, your response doesn't change the fact that the xiticix are shown to kill fleeing opponents who are not fighting back.

After months of harassment intended to get them to leave.

EJL

No that's not what it says, that's what happened in SoT but that's not what Xiticix invasion says.

It seems to me everyone is arguing over every detail because that's much easier than explaining how so many different unlikely, almost impossible things happened to allow Holmes to pull this off.

[Killer Cyborg]

Garbled to the point of incomprehensibility or not, your response doesn't change the fact that the xiticix are shown to kill fleeing opponents who are not fighting back.

After months of harassment intended to get them to leave.

EJL

In the case of the cattle, that's part of the harassment phase for the overall colony.

[tenakafurey]

No that's not what it says, that's what happened in SoT but that's not what Xiticix invasion says.

No...that is what XI says.

If Xiticix territory expands so it now surrounds an existing settlement, the existign inhbaitants are not attacked en masse.

Instead, they are subject to escalting harrassment by the Xiticix with the intention of getting them to leave. This can range from unprovoked attacks, to killing cattle and livestock.

If the settlers haven't accepting the Xiticixs territorial claim after several months, then the Hive swarms.

That is....months of people living on Xiticix territory.

Holmes was there for...what? 1 week? 2?

EJL

[Nxla666]

No that's not what it says, that's what happened in SoT but that's not what Xiticix invasion says.

No...that is what XI says.

If Xiticix territory expands so it now surrounds an existing settlement, the existign inhbaitants are not attacked en masse.

Instead, they are subject to escalting harrassment by the Xiticix with the intention of getting them to leave. This can range from unprovoked attacks, to killing cattle and livestock.

If the settlers haven't accepting the Xiticixs territorial claim after several months, then the Hive swarms.

That is....months of people living on Xiticix territory.

Holmes was there for...what? 1 week? 2?

EJL

72hrs.

[tenakafurey]

We're pointing out that the written behavior of Xiticix in XI contradicts their behavior in SoT, and we're pointing out that the lack of food/water would make such a journey impossible.

So…what are the contradictions….?

Namely…Holmes survived.

To do this, the Xiticix attack could not have been massive….or at least, all at once. After all, his men were getting slowly picked apart….meaning, there was no swarm en masse.

And the main contradictions spotted seem to be.…

Holmes had an army of 400,000 men…soldiers and support alike. WB23 tells us groups larger than 8 are seen to be intruders to be destroyed. But the Xiticix left Holmes alone after 72 hours of what seems to have been relatively light combat (in that it doesn’t seem likely they were swarmed under by 1 million or more warriors, as that would have destroyed them).

So…is that the main contradiction?

Let’s see….

WB23 tells us that the Xiticix do not attack or wage war without need and that they are known for usually accepting a foes retreat.

Leaving aside the specifics, what WB23 also shows is that the Xiticix tend to attack in response to a threat or a challenge (on their part or anothers). What seems to change is what they perceive as a threat, or challenge.

This could be group size – small parties are not as threatening as large and so slip by so long as they don’t draw attention.

This could be actions – staying still, attacking a Xiticix, entering the Hive.

Challenges to their territory are also met with hostility. Set up camp, stay on Xiticix territory after they’ve annexed it and there will be repercussions.

Now, with Holmes…..

He marched a large force in the Hivelands. He should have been attacked. He was. So far, XI and WB23 agree.

He engaged in self-defence for 72 hours. Still, the attacks continued. But….

After 72 hours…the attacks stopped. Why?

Let’s see….

He provoked no Xiticix. He provided no challenge.
He showed he wasn’t a threat.
He was moving away from the hive.

WB23 tells us the Xiticix are content to have the enemy force move away. Which he was doing. SoT and WB23 agree.
WB23 shows us the Xiticix attack in response to a challenge or threat. He provided neither. SoT and WB23 agree.
WB23 tell us the Xiticix do not kill without need. Holmes was neither challenging them or a threat, so there was no need to kill him. SoT and WB23 agree.

So…if it worked for Holmes, why not settlers? Or cattle? Because, they did challenge the Xiticix, by “claiming territory”. They just have to stay still for a few minutes to illicit that response. And they’re unlikely to remain alive long enough, or be passive enough, to change the Xiticix mind.

Does it matter that a Xiticix will continue to attack until it or its target is dead, or that it may attack someone or something it perceives as a challenge or threat even if that is running away, armed or unarmed, young or old, sentient or not? No…because nothing there contradicts what happened.

As for food and water...supply wagons, supplies in the transports he brought with him, rain, lakes, rivers, farms, towns, villages....

EJL

[grandmaster z0b]

No that's not what it says, that's what happened in SoT but that's not what Xiticix invasion says.

No...that is what XI says.

If Xiticix territory expands so it now surrounds an existing settlement, the existign inhbaitants are not attacked en masse.

Instead, they are subject to escalting harrassment by the Xiticix with the intention of getting them to leave. This can range from unprovoked attacks, to killing cattle and livestock.

If the settlers haven't accepting the Xiticixs territorial claim after several months, then the Hive swarms.

That is....months of people living on Xiticix territory.

Holmes was there for...what? 1 week? 2?

EJL

No that's not what it says.

Your talking about Xiticix expanding their borders, not a large scale army invading their borders. That's completey different.

I want to know how they were able to fit 400 000 soldiers into vehicles, how many vehicles did they have?

Remember all the troops must be in vehicles as the army never stopped marching, there is no way an entire army can march for 72 hours without stopping once.

[Killer Cyborg]

We're pointing out that the written behavior of Xiticix in XI contradicts their behavior in SoT, and we're pointing out that the lack of food/water would make such a journey impossible.

So…what are the contradictions….?

-According to XI, Holmes' men would have been attacked at a 2:1 ratio, and they easily would have had the numbers for this.
-According to XI, anybody stopping within xiticix territory is seen as a threat or a challenge, and will be attacked by a squadron of Warrior. "Once the battle is begun, there is no room for explanations, negotiations or apologies, only the battle to the death.
-XI describes Xiticix as attacking any group of 8 or more humans or animals who are in Xiticix Territory, killing them regardless of surrender, flight, or pacifism.

The contradiction is that IF all of this information is correct (and it should be; it's official text written by the game's creator), then Holmes and his men should have been killed by a swarm of xiticix 2x their own numbers.
That's the contradiction. They would not have lasted 72 minutes without fighting back, much less 72 hours.

You keep getting hung up on the "xiticix don't kill without need" part of the text, but you're ignoring the clear definition of what they define as "need". They feel the "need" to kill anything that makes them feel threatened.
The presense of a large army of known enemies would make the bugs feel threatened, which means that they would attack.
IF Holmes and his men lasted 72 hours without fighting back, then the bugs might indeed cease attacking (although XI doesn't indicate this). But there's no way that they'd last that long.

[Nxla666]

No that's not what it says, that's what happened in SoT but that's not what Xiticix invasion says.

No...that is what XI says.

If Xiticix territory expands so it now surrounds an existing settlement, the existign inhbaitants are not attacked en masse.

Instead, they are subject to escalting harrassment by the Xiticix with the intention of getting them to leave. This can range from unprovoked attacks, to killing cattle and livestock.

If the settlers haven't accepting the Xiticixs territorial claim after several months, then the Hive swarms.

That is....months of people living on Xiticix territory.

Holmes was there for...what? 1 week? 2?

EJL

No that's not what it says.

Your talking about Xiticix expanding their borders, not a large scale army invading their borders. That's completey different.

I want to know how they were able to fit 400 000 soldiers into vehicles, how many vehicles did they have?

Remember all the troops must be in vehicles as the army never stopped marching, there is no way an entire army can march for 72 hours without stopping once.

Actually the books says they did stop, but not for more than a few minutes, like long enough to switch drivers or rotate walkers for riders.

Its pretty amazing how worked up some people get over less than a full page of text.

It even says after 72 hours Holmes was reaching the breaking point then "miraculously" 60% of the Xiticix breakoff.

Also it said that 180-250,000 Xits attacked Holmes, never said anything more than that.

Since Holmes troops "never" struck back with lethal force then there wasnt a need for Xit reinforcements, so the number remained small.

[grandmaster z0b]

No that's not what it says, that's what happened in SoT but that's not what Xiticix invasion says.

No...that is what XI says.

If Xiticix territory expands so it now surrounds an existing settlement, the existign inhbaitants are not attacked en masse.

Instead, they are subject to escalting harrassment by the Xiticix with the intention of getting them to leave. This can range from unprovoked attacks, to killing cattle and livestock.

If the settlers haven't accepting the Xiticixs territorial claim after several months, then the Hive swarms.

That is....months of people living on Xiticix territory.

Holmes was there for...what? 1 week? 2?

EJL

No that's not what it says.

Your talking about Xiticix expanding their borders, not a large scale army invading their borders. That's completey different.

I want to know how they were able to fit 400 000 soldiers into vehicles, how many vehicles did they have?

Remember all the troops must be in vehicles as the army never stopped marching, there is no way an entire army can march for 72 hours without stopping once.

Actually the books says they did stop, but not for more than a few minutes, like long enough to switch drivers or rotate walkers for riders.

Its pretty amazing how worked up some people get over less than a full page of text.

It even says after 72 hours Holmes was reaching the breaking point then "miraculously" 60% of the Xiticix breakoff.

Also it said that 180-250,000 Xits attacked Holmes, never said anything more than that.

Since Holmes troops "never" struck back with lethal force then there wasnt a need for Xit reinforcements, so the number remained small.

I don't actually know what's funny but I just thought I'd join in.

How many vehicles did they have to fit 400 00 troops?

I think it's the numbers that really bother me, if it was an army of 20 000 or something then maybe I wouldn't be so harsh, but 400 000 that's an absolutley massive army.

That and the fact that WB:23 has a seemingly different interpretation of Xiticix behaviour and especially their aggression.

[Killer Cyborg]

Also it said that 180-250,000 Xits attacked Holmes, never said anything more than that.

Which contradicts the numbers in XI.

[cornholioprime]

[We're not asking for the names of every one of Holmes' soldiers.
We're pointing out that the written behavior of Xiticix in XI contradicts their behavior in SoT, and we're pointing out that the lack of food/water would make such a journey impossible.

There is a difference between pointing out flaws and in asking for gaps in description to be filled.

Heck, I'd be happier if the books just said, "Holmes somehow managed to escape and sneak behind Tolkeen later."
At least that wouldn't be contradicting established rules and the laws of physics.

That's how I feel about it too.

I would rather have it explained in a manner than makes sense with the applicable information instead of having big blanks and inconsistent behavior key to success.

Reminds me of a cartoon, the one that says "I think you should be more explicit here in step two."

:lol:

I'll see your and raise it

[Killer Cyborg]

How many vehicles did they have to fit 400,000 troops?

Depends on the vehicle.
A single Mark V will hold "20 grunts and 6 SAMAS".
Loaded up fully, we could stretch things where on would hold 40 people.
Then you'd only need 10,000 of them.