Was Holmes' stunt possible?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Food and Water , Holmes cares about his troops and getting caught with his pants doesnt seem to be holmes thing maybe the other generals but not him, while depending when there last resupplyment was, once outside the hiveland, holmes can order hunting parties in the local area and some to go north up into canada to be done at company level, because winter would be starting in less then a month and odds are snow is already on the ground, so find shelter for over 300,000 troops along with food and water has to be thought of as well

Of all the things that everyone disagrees with in this Thread, nobody thinks that a force of hundreds of thousands can survive "off the land" for any appreciable amount of time.

Truthfully, I don't think that even you believe this to be possible, either, but are simply blurting out something to gainsay everyone else.

If, however, you truly DO believe this to be so, then you sound REALLY foolish.

Unless you'd like to go into detail as to how they would've done it......

Mech-Viper: Uh...General Holmes , uh, had a Contingency Plan at the ready in case, uh...........um.....................er......... they'd be tricked by the Tolkeen Army into having to stay in the Hivelands for several weeks and, um, packed Food enough to do so!!! Yeah, that's the ticket!!

Thread Spectators and Cornholioprime:

you are right, how ever this is the world of RIFTS, so any agruement about how impossible something is changes with a cast of a spell

[Jack Daniels]

you are right, how ever this is the world of RIFTS, so any agruement about how impossible something is changes with a cast of a spell

Shame the Coalition States abhor magic and forbid its use...now if the Tolkeen army had been run into the Hivelands, that'd be an easier defense.

But there have been arguments previously in this thread that high-level mages owe General Holmes something and that they helped the CS get through and survive in the wilderness. Oh and don't forget the all powerful Vanguard who is capable of doing any and all things magical in any and all situations despite being shot on sight by those they are helping. They probably opened some rift that Holmes lead his troops through to a land of bread and butter and repair shops where they stayed for several months before launching their attack.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

you are right, how ever this is the world of RIFTS, so any agruement about how impossible something is changes with a cast of a spell

Shame the Coalition States abhor magic and forbid its use...now if the Tolkeen army had been run into the Hivelands, that'd be an easier defense.

But there have been arguments previously in this thread that high-level mages owe General Holmes something and that they helped the CS get through and survive in the wilderness. Oh and don't forget the all powerful Vanguard who is capable of doing any and all things magical in any and all situations despite being shot on sight by those they are helping. They probably opened some rift that Holmes lead his troops through to a land of bread and butter and repair shops where they stayed for several months before launching their attack.

yeah you are right they would be more then have happy to save holmes along with Athena and Prometheus so corny is always crying about hand of god, so hand of gods. A&P opens a endless food stand for holmes troops and feed holmes and his troops and they get Hephaetus to make repairs, and with all this tolkeen is crushed hooray

[Killer Cyborg]

But there have been arguments previously in this thread that high-level mages owe General Holmes something and that they helped the CS get through and survive in the wilderness. Oh and don't forget the all powerful Vanguard who is capable of doing any and all things magical in any and all situations despite being shot on sight by those they are helping. They probably opened some rift that Holmes lead his troops through to a land of bread and butter and repair shops where they stayed for several months before launching their attack.

1. If the Vanguard (or anybody else) were willing and inclined to help Holmes' men that way, they'd have done it before he lost all those troops to the bugs.
2. Bread and Butter are MDC in their native dimension, and cannot be eaten by normal humans.

[Killer Cyborg]

Wow! Getting pretty meaningless here.

Like with your own post?

[Jack Daniels]

yeah you are right they would be more then have happy to save holmes along with Athena and Prometheus so corny is always crying about hand of god, so hand of gods. A&P opens a endless food stand for holmes troops and feed holmes and his troops and they get Hephaetus to make repairs, and with all this tolkeen is crushed hooray

Why do Athena and Prometheus need to be saved?

[ShadowLogan]

Possible answer to the duration: Time Flux.

What if Holmes and his army where exposed to a Time Flux of a Ley Line Storm and had time slow down not for the commonly enoucntered minutes, but hours, days, weeks, or months...

I would read that the Ley Line Storms random tables found in various books (reprinted) basically list the normally encountered things. This would not be a normal time Flux they described, more of a super time flux and not as common/rare.

This solves the Food, Water, and supply problem.

This solves the how did they last against the bugs so long and their slow travel speed. For them only 72hrs may have elapsed, but for everyone else in the War months past. Using the correct elapsed time (from everyone elses point of view) they ended up with an average slower travel speed.

[RainOfSteel]

Also it said that 180-250,000 Xits attacked Holmes, never said anything more than that.

Which contradicts the numbers in XI.

Unfortunately Nxla666's cite of SoT 5 isn't valid and so doesn't contradict anything.

I take something straight from the book and it isnt valid.

Is quoting the books is only valid if its anti-CS, RoS?

You stated (from SoT 3) "it said that 180-250,000 Xits attacked Holmes".

It doesn't say that, so it's not straight from the book.

It says (one more time), that 180-250k Xiticix had been seen to take wing.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Possible answer to the duration: Time Flux.

What if Holmes and his army where exposed to a Time Flux of a Ley Line Storm and had time slow down not for the commonly enoucntered minutes, but hours, days, weeks, or months...

I would read that the Ley Line Storms random tables found in various books (reprinted) basically list the normally encountered things. This would not be a normal time Flux they described, more of a super time flux and not as common/rare.

This solves the Food, Water, and supply problem.

This solves the how did they last against the bugs so long and their slow travel speed. For them only 72hrs may have elapsed, but for everyone else in the War months past. Using the correct elapsed time (from everyone elses point of view) they ended up with an average slower travel speed.

that never crossed my mind, wow

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Also it said that 180-250,000 Xits attacked Holmes, never said anything more than that.

Which contradicts the numbers in XI.

Unfortunately Nxla666's cite of SoT 5 isn't valid and so doesn't contradict anything.

I take something straight from the book and it isnt valid.

Is quoting the books is only valid if its anti-CS, RoS?

You stated (from SoT 3) "it said that 180-250,000 Xits attacked Holmes".

It doesn't say that, so it's not straight from the book.

It says (one more time), that 180-250k Xiticix had been seen to take wing.

yes and how many to guard all the borders from the ground and air, dont forget about the ones still in the hive and the then the one crawling or flying all over the country side searching for more invaders

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Possible answer to the duration: Time Flux.

What if Holmes and his army where exposed to a Time Flux of a Ley Line Storm and had time slow down not for the commonly enoucntered minutes, but hours, days, weeks, or months...

I would read that the Ley Line Storms random tables found in various books (reprinted) basically list the normally encountered things. This would not be a normal time Flux they described, more of a super time flux and not as common/rare.

This solves the Food, Water, and supply problem.

This solves the how did they last against the bugs so long and their slow travel speed. For them only 72hrs may have elapsed, but for everyone else in the War months past. Using the correct elapsed time (from everyone elses point of view) they ended up with an average slower travel speed.

Not a bad idea, but I don't think adding an additional "convenient" occurance would really help the situation.

is that area know to phase shift?

[Nxla666]

Out of curiousity what kind of crearures live in Minnesota, D-bee and normal.

A good sized deer will feed a squad a couple days, how long will a dinosaur like a brontosaurus feed troops, and who knows what other kinds of creatures they could find to eat.

That and theres always that recipe for chicken fried Xiticix.

This is Rifts so huge creatures running around is the norm.

Oh, and...

180-250,000 Xiticix seen to have taken wing, ok thats different from 180-250k attacking Holmes how exactly?

"Taking wing" means exactly what? They went airborne, doesnt mean they all went after Holmes, maybe they chased some of those annoying flying Tolkeenites.

[cornholioprime]

"Taking wing" means exactly what? They went airborne, doesnt mean they all went after Holmes, maybe they chased some of those annoying flying Tolkeenites.

"Taking Wing," in the context of the SoT Series, referred to the only thing that distant observers could see (the Xs attacked anything coming within 100 miles of Holmes' location).

It logically follows that if distant observers could see "only" a few hundred thousand, then the total number of Bugs in (Holmes's) Theater would be much, much greater -since not all Xiticix can fly and presumably not all of them would have engaged in strictly Air-to-Ground long range attacks.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Out of curiousity what kind of crearures live in Minnesota, D-bee and normal.

A good sized deer will feed a squad a couple days, how long will a dinosaur like a brontosaurus feed troops, and who knows what other kinds of creatures they could find to eat.

That and theres always that recipe for chicken fried Xiticix.

This is Rifts so huge creatures running around is the norm.

I would think that between Tolkeen and the Hivelands there isn't much in the area like herds of animals or dinosaurs, but I don't recall what it says about it in XI. I'm sure there are animals, but a force that size would have a hard time hunting down enough while keeping hidden from Tolkeen, IMO.

Oh, and...

180-250,000 Xiticix seen to have taken wing, ok thats different from 180-250k attacking Holmes how exactly?

"Taking wing" means exactly what? They went airborne, doesnt mean they all went after Holmes, maybe they chased some of those annoying flying Tolkeenites.

I think the problem is the vagueness. That means 1-250K bugs could have attacked them, or it means that it was the initial wave of the swarm and 250K more followed. That statement can be taken both ways, right?

I'm not real concerned about the numbers, since whatever bugs attacked were not destroyed, so even 50K of them attacking nearly unmolested could do grievous damage in short order.

once again they use defensive moves and that doesnt mean xiticix had free shots at them

[Tigermuppetcut]

I stopped reading after 11 pages, so forgive me if someone has pointed this out. But if you are in a situation where men will need to remain calm and not return fire under extreme circumstances then surely the senior officers would have collected all E-Clips and put them beyond immediate availability (locked away in transports etc.)

Men in armoured fighting vehicles are that one step removed from being face to face with the terror of it and more likely to be able to show restraint. Again maybe even the weapons on htese were ordered deactivated / fire mechanism encoded.

I think there's some movie where something like this happens (Alien(s)?) where the ammo is all confiscated.

[cornholioprime]

I stopped reading after 11 pages, so forgive me if someone has pointed this out. But if you are in a situation where men will need to remain calm and not return fire under extreme circumstances then surely the senior officers would have collected all E-Clips and put them beyond immediate availability (locked away in transports etc.)

Men in armoured fighting vehicles are that one step removed from being face to face with the terror of it and more likely to be able to show restraint. Again maybe even the weapons on htese were ordered deactivated / fire mechanism encoded.

I think there's some movie where something like this happens (Alien(s)?) where the ammo is all confiscated.

Uh, NO.

400,000.

Troops.

Sudden battle.

Confiscation not possible in the short time alotted.

'Nuff said.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I stopped reading after 11 pages, so forgive me if someone has pointed this out. But if you are in a situation where men will need to remain calm and not return fire under extreme circumstances then surely the senior officers would have collected all E-Clips and put them beyond immediate availability (locked away in transports etc.)

Men in armoured fighting vehicles are that one step removed from being face to face with the terror of it and more likely to be able to show restraint. Again maybe even the weapons on htese were ordered deactivated / fire mechanism encoded.

I think there's some movie where something like this happens (Alien(s)?) where the ammo is all confiscated.

Uh, NO.

400,000.

Troops.

Sudden battle.

Confiscation not possible in the short time alotted.

'Nuff said.

highest nco or officer collects all e-clips
a hold fire order cant be given?

[RainOfSteel]

400k MD/MDC troopers proceeding through the Hiveland is going to cause that agitation. Why? Because they possess firepower than can hurt the hive and any Xiticix flying through the area.

Which is an assumption, pure and simple. They’ll attack, yes…but that doesn’t necessarily get them “riled up”.

The text in the book says otherwise, as has been quoted and cited.

Again, the Xiticix were threatened [...]

You mean, the raiding swarm that appears in response to an attack on the hive itself? Something Holmes didn't do?

WB23:XI's information on raiding swarms makes no reference to the need for an attack on the hive itself. Just an "attack".

Yes, I am aware that SoT 5 says the CS army wasn't attacking . . . and I have stated that the description of what they did do sounds exactly like a provocation that would cause Xiticix agitation, and additionally that their simple act of entry into the Hiveland and the violation of the p.10-11 conditions (too many, too noisy, giant mecha, etc.) were an invasion in fact.

In the specific case of Hiveland invasion [...]

For example, in this case, the text does not link raiding swarms to an invasion of the hivelands, but to an attack on the hive itself. As Holmes didn't do that, such swarms wouldn't be unleashed.

An invasion is an attack.

Page 12 says they'll attack group over 20, page 17 states that riled Xiticix tend to attack anyone they see.

It does not say "tend to attack". Specifically, the word "tend" is not used. There is no synonym for "tend" to be found there.

You posted a lot of info on raiding swarms, but didn't address why they would be unleashed when Holmes didn't attack the Hive.

Yes, actually I did. More than once and in extensive detail.

That is the point of all this discussion. Essentially it's a statement of dissatisfaction over the differences implied between WB23:XI and SoT 5.

I'm really not seeing any.

I am now seeing that.

And you cannot have it both ways. If you want to apply the info on p.10 as a universal constant...namely, the Xiticix will swarm groups of 20+

Actually, I said nothing of the kind. I said they would always attack with the mission to destroy (in the "20 and over" case), and pointed out the 2/4-8 response would be the typical tactic for the case, but not necessarily the only one. However, whatever tactic was used, the destruction of the enemy would be the objective.

SoT 5 has the Xiticix dithering around like nerve-gassed highschool teenagers.

...then you are saying that the Xiticix universally use swarm tactics and swarm tactics only.

No I didn't.

Which is stated to happen when they’re riled. At which point the question is…was Holmes mere presence enough to rile them? Their response suggests it wasn’t.

The written canon of their response in SoT 5 suggests it indirectly.

This is one of the main problems.

And yes....to my mind, being riled up is different from merely attacking.

Being "riled up" causes the Xiticix to attack. What riles them up has been clearly defined, and Holmes' group appears to meet the necessary conditions so far as I can tell based on WB23:XI (rather than SoT 5).

What’s the difference? As I see it, p10 describe small unit actions

But WB23:XI p.11 describes a case that ranges from small to very large, and so that section is not simply discussing small unit actions.

, p 17 describes large unit operations. Small unit actions don’t need much more than swarming to succeed. Large unit actions do.

You know, "swarm" sort of implies a large unit. A very large unit.

I don't describe 40 Xiticix attacking 20 opponents as a swarm. I describe 1,000,000 Xiticix attacking 400,000 opponents as a swarm, especially if they fall upon 1% of the column all at once (not that you could fit a million Xiticix on top of 1% of the column) and roll it up. In the military, that's called defeat in detail. It's an attacker's dream, and a defender's nightmare.

No…it’s “This story seems to have a screwy element in it…can we reconcile this with what we know"?

Yes. It can be explained. Depending on the size of the magic pill you are willing to swallow, or if you are willing to self-contort sufficiently to cause an 'Mazing candy bar to open spontaneously.

[RainOfSteel]

That's a whole lot of difference.

Yes, it is.

[RainOfSteel]

180-250,000 Xiticix seen to have taken wing, ok thats different from 180-250k attacking Holmes how exactly?

"Taking wing" means exactly what? They went airborne, doesnt mean they all went after Holmes, maybe they chased some of those annoying flying Tolkeenites.

"Taking wing" means exactly what it says. Flying around.

The observers who reported that could have no way of knowing how many were on the ground, or how many were obscured by the flying swarm, how many hadn't come out the ground yet, etc.

The total number that were attacking Holmes', based on the SoT 5 description, was far, far less. A few score or hundred at a time at most, here and there, up and down the column. The total on the attack at any one moment was probably a few thousand at most, probably less.

As I just mentioned, the description has the Xiticix acting like nerve-gassed highschool teenagers.

If 180-250K Xiticix were attacking in earnest, the column would have been devasted in a defeat in detail attack from one end of the column to another. There would have been nothing left.

[RainOfSteel]

I think there's some movie where something like this happens (Alien(s)?) where the ammo is all confiscated.

It was Aliens, and everyone in the audience knew the disarmament order was high on the list of the most brainless things that the commander could have done.

The real order should have been, "Withdraw immediately at top speed."

[Killer Cyborg]

I think there's some movie where something like this happens (Alien(s)?) where the ammo is all confiscated.

It was Aliens, and everyone in the audience knew the disarmament order was high on the list of the most brainless things that the commander could have done.

The real order should have been, "Withdraw immediately at top speed."

Agreed, and I agree with the rebuttals to Tigermuppetcut's idea.
But it was still a good thought on his part.

[RainOfSteel]

It can be given...just not during the fighting, before the fighting, or after the fighting. No combat trained soldier would give up his only chance at life with giant bugs everywhere. If you think a single officer could collect all the e-clips of his battalion, regiment, company, whatever...then I hate to break it to you but he'll probably die.

Especially when at least 20-30% of your army has an Evil alignment of one type or another.

Just like in Aliens, in Rifts the nco/officer takes the e-clips and then walks off, followed by the Diabolical corporal and his Evil squad pulling out their hidden spare e-clips and slapping them into place.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I stopped reading after 11 pages, so forgive me if someone has pointed this out. But if you are in a situation where men will need to remain calm and not return fire under extreme circumstances then surely the senior officers would have collected all E-Clips and put them beyond immediate availability (locked away in transports etc.)

Men in armoured fighting vehicles are that one step removed from being face to face with the terror of it and more likely to be able to show restraint. Again maybe even the weapons on htese were ordered deactivated / fire mechanism encoded.

I think there's some movie where something like this happens (Alien(s)?) where the ammo is all confiscated.

Uh, NO.

400,000.

Troops.

Sudden battle.

Confiscation not possible in the short time alotted.

'Nuff said.

highest nco or officer collects all e-clips
a hold fire order cant be given?

It can be given...just not during the fighting, before the fighting, or after the fighting. No combat trained soldier would give up his only chance at life with giant bugs everywhere. If you think a single officer could collect all the e-clips of his battalion, regiment, company, whatever...then I hate to break it to you but he'll probably die.

if you think the coalition miltary would put up with soldiers disobeying orders, you are mistaken

[Mech-Viper Prime]

if you think the coalition miltary would put up with soldiers disobeying orders, you are mistaken

Oh no, I'm not saying they'd put up with it....I'm saying they wouldn't get a chance to enact discipline on the 300,000+ troops below them who told them to kiss off if ever given an order to disarm in the middle of bug country.

What's an officer going to do? Pull an MDC pistol on his soldiers who are clad in MDC armor...then threaten to kill them or straight up shoot them for not complying? Oh no! If the trooper gets the order to give up his only chance at life in the middle of hell, he KNOWS his officers want him dead. You think he's just going to stand there and take it like a new guy at Ryker's Island?

You are mistaken.

well then again most of them would gladly offer up their lives to ensure thier love ones can live inside a coalition city

[tenakafurey]

[quote="RainOfSteel”]The text in the book says otherwise, as has been quoted and cited.[/quote]

It can’t have…because WB23 says nothing about it. It says that if a Xiticix gets riled, then others close by get aggressive as well. It says that attacking a hive gets the Xiticix riled.

That’s it….the rest seems to be an assumption that the Xiticix are riled because they attack.

WB23:XI's information on raiding swarms makes no reference to the need for an attack on the hive itself. Just an "attack"

On the hive….if it was anything else, you’d be seeing raiding swarms after every little incursion because they’d then be responding to an attack.

As it is, I simplified….raiding swarms are almost guaranteed if something big happens…such as an assault on the hive or a major natural disaster. However, they do not appear just because a human army is in the area. In the context of this discussion, the text specifically links it to an assault on the hive.

Yes, I am aware that SoT 5 says the CS army wasn't attacking . . . and I have stated that the description of what they did do sounds exactly like a provocation that would cause Xiticix agitation, and additionally that their simple act of entry into the Hiveland and the violation of the p.10-11 conditions (too many, too noisy, giant mecha, etc.) were an invasion in fact.

All of which shows that the Xiticix would likely attack….they did…but does nothing to indicate that they would swarm, seek the destruction of Holmes army irrespective of need or not stop fighting if they were convinced he wasn’t a threat.

All you can do is show that they would attack…which they did.

An invasion is an attack.

An invasion is trespassing. An attack involves fighting and attacking the hive itself. Read the paragraph above the one you’re quoting…..that describes what initiates a raiding swarm. The one you quote tells us what a raiding swarm is.

Yes, actually I did. More than once and in extensive detail.

You did so by treating the two paragraphs as separate entries, and assuming that the paragraph that begins “A raiding swarm is sent out after an attack…” is separate from the paragraph above it which introduces them.

Actually, I said nothing of the kind. I said they would always attack with the mission to destroy (in the "20 and over" case), and pointed out the 2/4-8 response would be the typical tactic for the case, but not necessarily the only one. However, whatever tactic was used, the destruction of the enemy would be the objective.

The point. You are claiming the WB23 entry regarding the fact that they would attack is a universal constant, but also stating hat how they attack is not. You are holding the same evidence to two different standards.

P10 states that the Xiticix will always swarm and attack to kill with twice their numbers. You cannot claim one part is always true and the other only sometimes so….at least not without some further proof.

P17-19 shows that they won’t always swarm. P17-19 shows that they won’t always attack with twice their numbers. Whether they always attack or not is irrelevant because they did attack Holmes.

So, the method of the Xiticix attack – relatively sporadic assaults that slowly picked Holmes army apart – can’t really be questioned. Neither can the numbers they used, whatever they were. Both can be supported by WB23, as shown.

The only real question here is…what would make them stop?

As I said, if they came to see Holmes as something other than a threat, that should do it.

The written canon of their response in SoT 5 suggests it indirectly.

No…that says they fight. That’s different from being riled up.

Being "riled up" causes the Xiticix to attack. What riles them up has been clearly defined

Beyond the fact that it’s “contagious” and that attacking a hive will do it...I don’t think it has.

But WB23:XI p.11 describes a case that ranges from small to very large, and so that section is not simply discussing small unit actions.

Yes…more than 20. It’s a pity that so much else shows this section isn’t entirely straightforward. For one, swarming an intruder is not the Xiticixs only response, despite the inference here.

EJL

[cornholioprime]

400k MD/MDC troopers proceeding through the Hiveland is going to cause that agitation. Why? Because they possess firepower than can hurt the hive and any Xiticix flying through the area.

Which is an assumption, pure and simple. They’ll attack, yes…but that doesn’t necessarily get them “riled up”.

The text in the book says otherwise, as has been quoted and cited.

Again, the Xiticix were threatened [...]

You mean, the raiding swarm that appears in response to an attack on the hive itself? Something Holmes didn't do?

WB23:XI's information on raiding swarms makes no reference to the need for an attack on the hive itself. Just an "attack".

Yes, I am aware that SoT 5 says the CS army wasn't attacking . . . and I have stated that the description of what they did do sounds exactly like a provocation that would cause Xiticix agitation, and additionally that their simple act of entry into the Hiveland and the violation of the p.10-11 conditions (too many, too noisy, giant mecha, etc.) were an invasion in fact.

In the specific case of Hiveland invasion [...]

For example, in this case, the text does not link raiding swarms to an invasion of the hivelands, but to an attack on the hive itself. As Holmes didn't do that, such swarms wouldn't be unleashed.

An invasion is an attack.

Page 12 says they'll attack group over 20, page 17 states that riled Xiticix tend to attack anyone they see.

It does not say "tend to attack". Specifically, the word "tend" is not used. There is no synonym for "tend" to be found there.

You posted a lot of info on raiding swarms, but didn't address why they would be unleashed when Holmes didn't attack the Hive.

Yes, actually I did. More than once and in extensive detail.

That is the point of all this discussion. Essentially it's a statement of dissatisfaction over the differences implied between WB23:XI and SoT 5.

I'm really not seeing any.

I am now seeing that.

And you cannot have it both ways. If you want to apply the info on p.10 as a universal constant...namely, the Xiticix will swarm groups of 20+

Actually, I said nothing of the kind. I said they would always attack with the mission to destroy (in the "20 and over" case), and pointed out the 2/4-8 response would be the typical tactic for the case, but not necessarily the only one. However, whatever tactic was used, the destruction of the enemy would be the objective.

SoT 5 has the Xiticix dithering around like nerve-gassed highschool teenagers.

...then you are saying that the Xiticix universally use swarm tactics and swarm tactics only.

No I didn't.

Which is stated to happen when they’re riled. At which point the question is…was Holmes mere presence enough to rile them? Their response suggests it wasn’t.

The written canon of their response in SoT 5 suggests it indirectly.

This is one of the main problems.

And yes....to my mind, being riled up is different from merely attacking.

Being "riled up" causes the Xiticix to attack. What riles them up has been clearly defined, and Holmes' group appears to meet the necessary conditions so far as I can tell based on WB23:XI (rather than SoT 5).

What’s the difference? As I see it, p10 describe small unit actions

But WB23:XI p.11 describes a case that ranges from small to very large, and so that section is not simply discussing small unit actions.

, p 17 describes large unit operations. Small unit actions don’t need much more than swarming to succeed. Large unit actions do.

You know, "swarm" sort of implies a large unit. A very large unit.

I don't describe 40 Xiticix attacking 20 opponents as a swarm. I describe 1,000,000 Xiticix attacking 400,000 opponents as a swarm, especially if they fall upon 1% of the column all at once (not that you could fit a million Xiticix on top of 1% of the column) and roll it up. In the military, that's called defeat in detail. It's an attacker's dream, and a defender's nightmare.

No…it’s “This story seems to have a screwy element in it…can we reconcile this with what we know"?

Yes. It can be explained. Depending on the size of the magic pill you are willing to swallow, or if you are willing to self-contort sufficiently to cause an 'Mazing candy bar to open spontaneously.

This ain't a +1 Post so much as a "statement" on my part that there's really nothing more to add to Rain's Response.

Except for one.

Waaaaay back about three whole pages ago, Killer Cyborg cited a reference regarding the Xiticix Reaction to "interlopers:"

Namely, that said interlopers are destroyed to the last Man, Woman, and Child.

Even if they run.

I checked several Dictionaries (three online and the Mirriam-Webster sitting on my desk), and they uniformly define "interloper" as (paraphrasing) one who encroaches on the Territory of another uninvited.

Now, if an Army 400,000 strong walks into an area deemed by the Xiticix as their Territory, could you kindly tell me why this HEAVILY ARMED, incoming Force wouldn't also be defined as "interlopers??"

You see, I don't remember that you ever answered the Citiation that Killer Cyborg pulled up, but I could be mistaken.

So enlighten me.

[tenakafurey]

Waaaaay back about three whole pages ago, Killer Cyborg cited a reference regarding the Xiticix Reaction to "interlopers:"

Namely, that said interlopers are destroyed to the last Man, Woman, and Child.

Even if they run.

Let’s see what WB23 says about it…

Against small groups they’ll fight until all interlopers are destroyed. If the intruders run, the Xiticix will follow. Combat will attract others who’ll stand by and watch. However, if the interlopers leave the hiveland, there’s a good chance the Xiticix will let them go.

Ok….so that’s not “destroyed to the last man, woman or child even if they run”. It may be, but it’s far from a guarantee. There’s no guarantee the Xiticix will even fight to their own death against the interlopers.

What about large groups of over 20?

You get attacked at odds of 2-8 to 1, depending on the size of your party. No mention of tactics, though its implied the Xiticix will fight in a similar manner tot hat of small groups. Which means attack, and a good chance they’ll let you go if you leave.

So, that’s not “destroyed to the last man, woman or child even if they run” either.

What else? Flyers, perhaps? Nope….it just says they’ll be met in battle unless they’re in small groups or fly high.

Who else? Well…it says they’ll kill every man, woman and child in any settlements they annex….if the settlers don’t leave following months of harassment. But they aren’t interlopers.

I’m not sure what his reference was…but I don’t see it.

Now, if an Army 400,000 strong walks into an area deemed by the Xiticix as their Territory, could you kindly tell me why this HEAVILY ARMED, incoming Force wouldn't also be defined as "interlopers??"

I thought the Xiticix did actually attack? I fail to see the contradiction.

The only question, as far as the Xiticix is concerned, is why would they stop the attack?

What do we know...we know the Xiticix often let competing force move away. We are told they don't attack without need - usually in response to a threat or challenge. We've been told that, on at least some occasion, the Xiticix have stopped fighting when the threat/reason was gone - when interlopers left the hivelands for example.

So...is it imposible that, becoming convinced Holmes wasn't a threat, they left him alone?

EJL

[Killer Cyborg]

What about large groups of over 20?

You get attacked at odds of 2-8 to 1, depending on the size of your party. No mention of tactics, though its implied the Xiticix will fight in a similar manner tot hat of small groups. Which means attack, and a good chance they’ll let you go if you leave.

Where exactly is that supposed to be implied?

[ShadowLogan]

Not a bad idea, but I don't think adding an additional "convenient" occurance would really help the situation

The TimeFlux idea is on the Random effects of a Ley Line Storm, albiet of a much larger magnitude than listed. P. 192 of R:UE (Dimensional Flux, but it stated that you can change it out for a Time Flux). In Altantis or UnderSeas IINM they do have a "Time Flux" in the Ley Line section IINM.

I could have sworn there was a larger time dilation effect one to. I just don't remember where I saw it.

It does not need to account for the entire time in the Hive Lands, just enough to statisfy everyone's issues.

Aside from the convient occurance, I can see one problem with this. Why Would the CS forces be traveling so close to a Ley Line? It would make their magic wielding enemies stronger (possible they where herded) and diminish their DogPack/PSI-Stalker troops sensing abilities.

Unless of course the CS had knowledge of the side effects of Ley Line Storms (Rifts Control Group?) and saw said storm on a Ley Line and moved toward it to use it to their advantage:
-Magic is screwed up (some what predictable, and most work against the user)
-extra PPE normally available is not accessible
-Ley Line Bolts targeting Magic users artifcats
-No Dimesnional Portals
-Ley Line Teleport/Com is out

The CS would only suffer electronic distortions (1/2 range) and 1/2 combat computer bonuses. The PSI users would take some penalties, but I doubt they are a majority of the fighting force.

is that area know to phase shift?

The Area does have Ley Lines IINM, so would be subject to Ley Line Storms. As Time Flux is a possible occurance during a Ley Line Storm...

Though we are back to why the CS was near a Ley Line, see above.

[cornholioprime]

Along the numbers idea, humans can count, Xiticix cannot.

You're kidding, right??

Does the concept "Species with an IQ of up to 30" mean anything to you??

PLEASE tell me that you were kidding about Xiticix and counting ability.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

well the xiticix does have basic math

[Nxla666]

I think there's some movie where something like this happens (Alien(s)?) where the ammo is all confiscated.

It was Aliens, and everyone in the audience knew the disarmament order was high on the list of the most brainless things that the commander could have done.

The real order should have been, "Withdraw immediately at top speed."

One thing we agree on.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

when does one side make it sound like its just holmes and 400.000 privates fresh out of boot camp

[cornholioprime]

when does one side make it sound like its just holmes and 400.000 privates fresh out of boot camp

Not that anyone ever said or implied that, but what does the Rank of the Troops have to with anything discussed in this Thread??

Let me guess.

Are you going to imply that more experienced Soldiers would indeed give up their Weapons and/or not fight back one of the most ruthless, hated and feared Species in the entire Megaverse on the say-so of just one guy???

[Mech-Viper Prime]

when does one side make it sound like its just holmes and 400.000 privates fresh out of boot camp

Not that anyone ever said or implied that, but what does the Rank of the Troops have to with anything discussed in this Thread??

Let me guess.

Are you going to imply that more experienced Soldiers would indeed give up their Weapons and/or not fight back one of the most ruthless, hated and feared Species in the entire Megaverse on the say-so of just one guy???

no but i figure that would get you to reply , as with every battle, rank, leadership and every esle must be figured into each scenario but some dont what to do that

[Mech-Viper Prime]

food? what about food !?!?

okay, how are they gonna chew an MDC creature?
and if someone even uses the word "peppers" I'm gonna smack em

They just have to crack the shell. Like corny siad...giant crab legs.
I bet they taste pretty good.

Xiticix scampy
Xiticix kabobs
Xiticix cobbler
Xiticix salad
Xiticix cocktail
Xiticix a la mode...ect...ect

Haven't you heard of the new food culture developed by the Coalition? Soon to hit store shelves it's Solent Green made with Xiticix. After all they need to do something with all those Xiticix remains.

Xiticix it's what for dinner

we talked about it hereXiticix it's still what for dinner

[Gomen_Nagai]

I think the Holmes crew if they wanted a plausible reason to not get attacked, Had a necromancer or Deity cast a large version of Aura of Death on them so that the CS were perceived as walking carrion.

[Nxla666]

I think the Holmes crew if they wanted a plausible reason to not get attacked, Had a necromancer or Deity cast a large version of Aura of Death on them so that the CS were perceived as walking carrion.

Which still would have been attacked by the Xiticix, IMO.

I still think its possible for an army to do this stunt, but lets face it, it starts at improbable and quickly goes downhill from there.

We have thrown around all sorts of what ifs and still come back to the same thing, it poorly written, with plot holes big enough to fly a Mechanoid Mothership through.

The problem I see is that KS wrote a story into a game, a story where the "rules" were left out in favor of drama and all those other things people like in their fiction but not in the game mechanics (apparently).

So here we have a large group of people with varied amounts of knowledge, some real world combat experience, some non-combat military, and more non-military but with a bit of amateur historian experience (I fall into this group), and we debate wether this stunt is possible.

I say based on real life impossible events that it is, just like Hannibal crossing the Alps or Patton relieving Bastogne and many more that I remember from my readings. None of these events were believed possible yet we know they happened and were successes, but this is real life and not Rifts, where the rules of the world are nicely printed out for us the reader.

So whilst from a strictly mechanics based scenario Holmes and his army might have made it out of the Hivelands but the vast majority of his army would have been annihilated and the Duluth Hive would have suffered catastrophic losses as well and the Tolkeenites would have had a great news reals to show the masses and keep them entertained for months.

But KS didn't do it "by the numbers", he did it as a story and so here we are locked into a debate that cant be settled because the "facts" each side has is countered by the other sides "facts".

So instead of miring myself further (who am I kidding, I'll be back) in this debate, I am going to instead go about my gaming and have the SoT transpire the way I believe is better, at least for my game 'verse.

[grandmaster z0b]

That would involve KILLING the bugs...something you have said Holmes wouldn't allow.

Now imagine how many Xiticix you need to kill to feed 300,000 soldiers.

Now try telling us that the bugs wouldn't feel threatened by a massive army invading their territory and EATING them.

Good point, there is no way any of the men are eating Xiticix if they aren't trying to provoke them.

Also can I just point out that a single Xiticix with a TK Rifle can do about 240 MD each minute? How long would the army last with it's brilliant strategy of walking very slowly through enemy territory?

Just to show the math - I'm assuming the average Xiticix has about 5 attacks a round (probably more but we'll be conservative). An attack from a Xiticix TK Rifle does 4d6 which is an average of about 12 MD each attack. 5 attacks x 12 MD = 60 MD in 15 seconds, x 4 = 240 MD in a minute. Multiply that by 100 000 Xiticix (still not all are shooting) = 24 000 000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.

How long are they going to last?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

That would involve KILLING the bugs...something you have said Holmes wouldn't allow.

Now imagine how many Xiticix you need to kill to feed 300,000 soldiers.

Now try telling us that the bugs wouldn't feel threatened by a massive army invading their territory and EATING them.

i was talking more of the "after they get out of the hivelands"

[Mech-Viper Prime]

That would involve KILLING the bugs...something you have said Holmes wouldn't allow.

Now imagine how many Xiticix you need to kill to feed 300,000 soldiers.

Now try telling us that the bugs wouldn't feel threatened by a massive army invading their territory and EATING them.

Good point, there is no way any of the men are eating Xiticix if they aren't trying to provoke them.

Also can I just point out that a single Xiticix with a TK Rifle can do about 240 MD each minute? How long would the army last with it's brilliant strategy of walking very slowly through enemy territory?

Just to show the math - I'm assuming the average Xiticix has about 5 attacks a round (probably more but we'll be conservative). An attack from a Xiticix TK Rifle does 4d6 which is an average of about 12 MD each attack. 5 attacks x 12 MD = 60 MD in 15 seconds, x 4 = 240 MD in a minute. Multiply that by 100 000 Xiticix (still not all are shooting) = 24 000 000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.

How long are they going to last?

once again not every xiticix carry range weapons
and the average Coaliton Soldier do 720 per mintues, now times with over 400,000 and that is 288,000,000 MDC divivde against 250,000 that is 1152 md to each xitcix

[grandmaster z0b]

That would involve KILLING the bugs...something you have said Holmes wouldn't allow.

Now imagine how many Xiticix you need to kill to feed 300,000 soldiers.

Now try telling us that the bugs wouldn't feel threatened by a massive army invading their territory and EATING them.

Good point, there is no way any of the men are eating Xiticix if they aren't trying to provoke them.

Also can I just point out that a single Xiticix with a TK Rifle can do about 240 MD each minute? How long would the army last with it's brilliant strategy of walking very slowly through enemy territory?

Just to show the math - I'm assuming the average Xiticix has about 5 attacks a round (probably more but we'll be conservative). An attack from a Xiticix TK Rifle does 4d6 which is an average of about 12 MD each attack. 5 attacks x 12 MD = 60 MD in 15 seconds, x 4 = 240 MD in a minute. Multiply that by 100 000 Xiticix (still not all are shooting) = 24 000 000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.

How long are they going to last?

once again not every xiticix carry range weapons
and the average Coaliton Soldier do 720 per mintues, now times with over 400,000 and that is 288,000,000 MDC divivde against 250,000 that is 1152 md to each xitcix

But they weren't attacking were they, so it's irrelevant.

[Killer Cyborg]

That would involve KILLING the bugs...something you have said Holmes wouldn't allow.

Now imagine how many Xiticix you need to kill to feed 300,000 soldiers.

Now try telling us that the bugs wouldn't feel threatened by a massive army invading their territory and EATING them.

Good point, there is no way any of the men are eating Xiticix if they aren't trying to provoke them.

Also can I just point out that a single Xiticix with a TK Rifle can do about 240 MD each minute? How long would the army last with it's brilliant strategy of walking very slowly through enemy territory?

Just to show the math - I'm assuming the average Xiticix has about 5 attacks a round (probably more but we'll be conservative). An attack from a Xiticix TK Rifle does 4d6 which is an average of about 12 MD each attack. 5 attacks x 12 MD = 60 MD in 15 seconds, x 4 = 240 MD in a minute. Multiply that by 100 000 Xiticix (still not all are shooting) = 24 000 000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.

How long are they going to last?

once again not every xiticix carry range weapons

That's why he only had 100,000 of them shooting.

and the average Coaliton Soldier do 720 per mintues, now times with over 400,000 and that is 288,000,000 MDC divivde against 250,000 that is 1152 md to each xitcix

Weren't you saying that everybody was inside of vehicles?
They couldn't all shoot out.

[grandmaster z0b]

That would involve KILLING the bugs...something you have said Holmes wouldn't allow.

Now imagine how many Xiticix you need to kill to feed 300,000 soldiers.

Now try telling us that the bugs wouldn't feel threatened by a massive army invading their territory and EATING them.

Good point, there is no way any of the men are eating Xiticix if they aren't trying to provoke them.

Also can I just point out that a single Xiticix with a TK Rifle can do about 240 MD each minute? How long would the army last with it's brilliant strategy of walking very slowly through enemy territory?

Just to show the math - I'm assuming the average Xiticix has about 5 attacks a round (probably more but we'll be conservative). An attack from a Xiticix TK Rifle does 4d6 which is an average of about 12 MD each attack. 5 attacks x 12 MD = 60 MD in 15 seconds, x 4 = 240 MD in a minute. Multiply that by 100 000 Xiticix (still not all are shooting) = 24 000 000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.

How long are they going to last?

once again not every xiticix carry range weapons

That's why he only had 100,000 of them shooting.

and the average Coaliton Soldier do 720 per mintues, now times with over 400,000 and that is 288,000,000 MDC divivde against 250,000 that is 1152 md to each xitcix

Weren't you saying that everybody was inside of vehicles?
They couldn't all shoot out.

Yeah he was also saying that none of the CS were retaliating at all so it's still a moot point.

Remember, Holmes' brilliant strategy was to march through their territory and only react defensively.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

That would involve KILLING the bugs...something you have said Holmes wouldn't allow.

Now imagine how many Xiticix you need to kill to feed 300,000 soldiers.

Now try telling us that the bugs wouldn't feel threatened by a massive army invading their territory and EATING them.

Good point, there is no way any of the men are eating Xiticix if they aren't trying to provoke them.

Also can I just point out that a single Xiticix with a TK Rifle can do about 240 MD each minute? How long would the army last with it's brilliant strategy of walking very slowly through enemy territory?

Just to show the math - I'm assuming the average Xiticix has about 5 attacks a round (probably more but we'll be conservative). An attack from a Xiticix TK Rifle does 4d6 which is an average of about 12 MD each attack. 5 attacks x 12 MD = 60 MD in 15 seconds, x 4 = 240 MD in a minute. Multiply that by 100 000 Xiticix (still not all are shooting) = 24 000 000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.

How long are they going to last?

once again not every xiticix carry range weapons

That's why he only had 100,000 of them shooting.

still too many xiticix carry rifles only 25% of super warriors and 1/3 of warriors carry tw-weapons

and the average Coaliton Soldier do 720 per mintues, now times with over 400,000 and that is 288,000,000 MDC divivde against 250,000 that is 1152 md to each xitcix

Weren't you saying that everybody was inside of vehicles?
They couldn't all shoot out.

just proving a point

[Mech-Viper Prime]

That would involve KILLING the bugs...something you have said Holmes wouldn't allow.

Now imagine how many Xiticix you need to kill to feed 300,000 soldiers.

Now try telling us that the bugs wouldn't feel threatened by a massive army invading their territory and EATING them.

Good point, there is no way any of the men are eating Xiticix if they aren't trying to provoke them.

Also can I just point out that a single Xiticix with a TK Rifle can do about 240 MD each minute? How long would the army last with it's brilliant strategy of walking very slowly through enemy territory?

Just to show the math - I'm assuming the average Xiticix has about 5 attacks a round (probably more but we'll be conservative). An attack from a Xiticix TK Rifle does 4d6 which is an average of about 12 MD each attack. 5 attacks x 12 MD = 60 MD in 15 seconds, x 4 = 240 MD in a minute. Multiply that by 100 000 Xiticix (still not all are shooting) = 24 000 000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.

How long are they going to last?

once again not every xiticix carry range weapons

That's why he only had 100,000 of them shooting.

and the average Coaliton Soldier do 720 per mintues, now times with over 400,000 and that is 288,000,000 MDC divivde against 250,000 that is 1152 md to each xitcix

Weren't you saying that everybody was inside of vehicles?
They couldn't all shoot out.

Yeah he was also saying that none of the CS were retaliating at all so it's still a moot point.

Remember, Holmes' brilliant strategy was to march through their territory and only react defensively.

[Killer Cyborg]

still too many xiticix carry rifles only 25% of super warriors and 1/3 of warriors carry tw-weapons

Yeah, and a bit more than that carry spike guns and glop guns and such.
Cut his numbers by half, and you still end up with 12,000,000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.
If it's 10,000 Mark V Transports, then each one would take about 1,200 MD, and they each have only 350 MD to the main body.

just proving a point

What point would that be?

[grandmaster z0b]

Also can I just point out that a single Xiticix with a TK Rifle can do about 240 MD each minute? How long would the army last with it's brilliant strategy of walking very slowly through enemy territory?

Just to show the math - I'm assuming the average Xiticix has about 5 attacks a round (probably more but we'll be conservative). An attack from a Xiticix TK Rifle does 4d6 which is an average of about 12 MD each attack. 5 attacks x 12 MD = 60 MD in 15 seconds, x 4 = 240 MD in a minute. Multiply that by 100 000 Xiticix (still not all are shooting) = 24 000 000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.

How long are they going to last?

once again not every xiticix carry range weapons

That's why he only had 100,000 of them shooting.

and the average Coaliton Soldier do 720 per mintues, now times with over 400,000 and that is 288,000,000 MDC divivde against 250,000 that is 1152 md to each xitcix

Weren't you saying that everybody was inside of vehicles?
They couldn't all shoot out.

Yeah he was also saying that none of the CS were retaliating at all so it's still a moot point.

Remember, Holmes' brilliant strategy was to march through their territory and only react defensively.

Well first let me applaud your ability to repeatedly click on an emoticon. It really added something to the discussion.

Anyway there was well over 100K attacking and most of them would have been doing similar damage even if they weren't armed with TK rifles so the damage would have been roughly the same give or take a million.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

still too many xiticix carry rifles only 25% of super warriors and 1/3 of warriors carry tw-weapons

Yeah, and a bit more than that carry spike guns and glop guns and such.
Cut his numbers by half, and you still end up with 12,000,000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.
If it's 10,000 Mark V Transports, then each one would take about 1,200 MD, and they each have only 350 MD to the main body.

just proving a point

What point would that be?

what 20% and 5% for warriors and 5% for super warriors