Was Holmes' stunt possible?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Also can I just point out that a single Xiticix with a TK Rifle can do about 240 MD each minute? How long would the army last with it's brilliant strategy of walking very slowly through enemy territory?

Just to show the math - I'm assuming the average Xiticix has about 5 attacks a round (probably more but we'll be conservative). An attack from a Xiticix TK Rifle does 4d6 which is an average of about 12 MD each attack. 5 attacks x 12 MD = 60 MD in 15 seconds, x 4 = 240 MD in a minute. Multiply that by 100 000 Xiticix (still not all are shooting) = 24 000 000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.

How long are they going to last?

once again not every xiticix carry range weapons

That's why he only had 100,000 of them shooting.

and the average Coaliton Soldier do 720 per mintues, now times with over 400,000 and that is 288,000,000 MDC divivde against 250,000 that is 1152 md to each xitcix

Weren't you saying that everybody was inside of vehicles?
They couldn't all shoot out.

Yeah he was also saying that none of the CS were retaliating at all so it's still a moot point.

Remember, Holmes' brilliant strategy was to march through their territory and only react defensively.

Well first let me applaud your ability to repeatedly click on an emoticon. It really added something to the discussion.

Anyway there was well over 100K attacking and most of them would have been doing similar damage even if they weren't armed with TK rifles so the damage would have been roughly the same give or take a million.

so does harping on the same thing over and over. But since we dont know what the exact number xiticix carrying TW-weapons

[Killer Cyborg]

still too many xiticix carry rifles only 25% of super warriors and 1/3 of warriors carry tw-weapons

Yeah, and a bit more than that carry spike guns and glop guns and such.
Cut his numbers by half, and you still end up with 12,000,000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.
If it's 10,000 Mark V Transports, then each one would take about 1,200 MD, and they each have only 350 MD to the main body.

just proving a point

What point would that be?

what 20% and 5% for warriors and 5% for super warriors

That's not a point. That's a question, and a poorly worded question at that.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

still too many xiticix carry rifles only 25% of super warriors and 1/3 of warriors carry tw-weapons

Yeah, and a bit more than that carry spike guns and glop guns and such.
Cut his numbers by half, and you still end up with 12,000,000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.
If it's 10,000 Mark V Transports, then each one would take about 1,200 MD, and they each have only 350 MD to the main body.

just proving a point

What point would that be?

what 20% and 5% for warriors and 5% for super warriors

That's not a point. That's a question, and a poorly worded question at that.

hey you the one who thinks the all the xiticix are gun toting shotters

[Killer Cyborg]

still too many xiticix carry rifles only 25% of super warriors and 1/3 of warriors carry tw-weapons

Yeah, and a bit more than that carry spike guns and glop guns and such.
Cut his numbers by half, and you still end up with 12,000,000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.
If it's 10,000 Mark V Transports, then each one would take about 1,200 MD, and they each have only 350 MD to the main body.

just proving a point

What point would that be?

what 20% and 5% for warriors and 5% for super warriors

That's not a point. That's a question, and a poorly worded question at that.

hey you the one who thinks the all the xiticix are gun toting shotters

So... no real point then?

[grandmaster z0b]

No they weren't shooting, they were buzzing around, looking menacing, loitering, maybe they were shooting craps instead?
If they weren't weilding guns then they could still attack and do damage.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

still too many xiticix carry rifles only 25% of super warriors and 1/3 of warriors carry tw-weapons

Yeah, and a bit more than that carry spike guns and glop guns and such.
Cut his numbers by half, and you still end up with 12,000,000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.
If it's 10,000 Mark V Transports, then each one would take about 1,200 MD, and they each have only 350 MD to the main body.

just proving a point

What point would that be?

what 20% and 5% for warriors and 5% for super warriors

That's not a point. That's a question, and a poorly worded question at that.

hey you the one who thinks the all the xiticix are gun toting shotters

So... no real point then?

nevermind then

[Killer Cyborg]

So... no real point then?

nevermind then [/quote]

I guess not.

[Killer Cyborg]

So... no real point then?

nevermind then [/quote]

I guess not.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

So... no real point then?

nevermind then

I guess not.[/quote]hey since every xiticix in your mind carry a rifle and pistol something that even canon says they dont, there is no sense carrying this on

[Killer Cyborg]

hey since every xiticix in your mind carry a rifle and pistol something that even canon says they dont, there is no sense carrying this on

a) I don't make that claim.
b) What would that have to do with your alleged point?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

So... no real point then?

nevermind then

I guess not.

hey since every xiticix in your mind carry a rifle and pistol something that even canon says they dont, there is no sense carrying this on

a) I don't make that claim.
b) What would that have to do with your alleged point?

nice job on messing up the quotes

[Mech-Viper Prime]

So... no real point then?

nevermind then

I guess not.

hey since every xiticix in your mind carry a rifle and pistol something that even canon says they dont, there is no sense carrying this on

a) I don't make that claim.
b) What would that have to do with your alleged point?

nice job on messing up the quotes

Check your posts. You did it too.

yeah but he has that 3 to 1

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Sigh... from what I've re-read in WB Canada, the Xiticix are pretty territorial but not to the extent of endangering themselves without sufficient numbers on their side.

How much animal intelligence is applied for the Xiticix in this discussion?

how much KevSim applied to them, 400, 000 vs 250,000, seems like the xiticix didnt react the way they should have unless KS had somethingesle on his mind

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Like I keep mentioning, they must have been carrying pretty heavy-duty insect repellents or insecticides.

smooke and cold weather nomally chase off bugs but the military strength insect repellents are murder

[Mech-Viper Prime]

keeping them on oneself is more than sufficient to put those bugs at bay.

But my previous mention of this has largely been ignored... several times.

i know

[Tigermuppetcut]

I can only remember vaguely the story so I might be way off here but...

Didn't they go into the hivelands as a last resort to being slaughtered by magic using enemies?

In that case I can see the option of: "We have two choices we stay here and die or go mad at the hands of demons and magic etc. or we take a chance and try to make it through bug territory. We'll go quiet, Ammo will be confiscated, there will be a permanent hold fire order in place not all of us will make it out, hell none of us might make it out but it's a chance and it's all we have. To stay here is guaranteed suicide plain and simple." working.

They could pass on the orders and take back the ammo on entering the hivelands and after the initial retreat under fire. It's not like Holmes is going personally to every soldier and taking there ammo and explaining the situation, he delegates. Although I'd imagine he would take the time to stop and assemble as best they can to give a rousing speech before hand.

Drill into the soldiers that so fire a shot to try and save your hide or your buddy is to doom all of us, every single one and everyone back home once Tolkeen wins the war etc.

[Killer Cyborg]

a) I don't make that claim.
b) What would that have to do with your alleged point?

nice job on messing up the quotes

Nice dodge.
Answer the question anyway.

[Killer Cyborg]

keeping them on oneself is more than sufficient to put those bugs at bay.

But my previous mention of this has largely been ignored... several times.

Keeping what? Bug repellent?

Restate your point and I'll address it.

[Nxla666]

I can only remember vaguely the story so I might be way off here but...

Didn't they go into the hivelands as a last resort to being slaughtered by magic using enemies?

In that case I can see the option of: "We have two choices we stay here and die or go mad at the hands of demons and magic etc. or we take a chance and try to make it through bug territory. We'll go quiet, Ammo will be confiscated, there will be a permanent hold fire order in place not all of us will make it out, hell none of us might make it out but it's a chance and it's all we have. To stay here is guaranteed suicide plain and simple." working.

They could pass on the orders and take back the ammo on entering the hivelands and after the initial retreat under fire. It's not like Holmes is going personally to every soldier and taking there ammo and explaining the situation, he delegates. Although I'd imagine he would take the time to stop and assemble as best they can to give a rousing speech before hand.

Drill into the soldiers that so fire a shot to try and save your hide or your buddy is to doom all of us, every single one and everyone back home once Tolkeen wins the war etc.

Good point, and if it had been included in the original writings we wouldnt be worried about it because we would already have the answer.

[grandmaster z0b]

Also can I just point out that a single Xiticix with a TK Rifle can do about 240 MD each minute? How long would the army last with it's brilliant strategy of walking very slowly through enemy territory?

Just to show the math - I'm assuming the average Xiticix has about 5 attacks a round (probably more but we'll be conservative). An attack from a Xiticix TK Rifle does 4d6 which is an average of about 12 MD each attack. 5 attacks x 12 MD = 60 MD in 15 seconds, x 4 = 240 MD in a minute. Multiply that by 100 000 Xiticix (still not all are shooting) = 24 000 000 MD in a minute divided up between all of the CS vehicles.

How long are they going to last?

once again not every xiticix carry range weapons

That's why he only had 100,000 of them shooting.

and the average Coaliton Soldier do 720 per mintues, now times with over 400,000 and that is 288,000,000 MDC divivde against 250,000 that is 1152 md to each xitcix

Weren't you saying that everybody was inside of vehicles?
They couldn't all shoot out.

Yeah he was also saying that none of the CS were retaliating at all so it's still a moot point.

Remember, Holmes' brilliant strategy was to march through their territory and only react defensively.

Well first let me applaud your ability to repeatedly click on an emoticon. It really added something to the discussion.

Anyway there was well over 100K attacking and most of them would have been doing similar damage even if they weren't armed with TK rifles so the damage would have been roughly the same give or take a million.

so does harping on the same thing over and over. But since we dont know what the exact number xiticix carrying TW-weapons

I'm harping on about what exactly? I've used math to show another problem with the scenario and as KC pointed out even if you halve the numbers it's still way too mcuh MDC for the army to survive.
Your response has been

: the CS could do more damage, which is pointless since they weren't fighting back.
my numbers were based on 100 000 Xiticix all shooting TK rifles and not all of them carry them - again ignoring our responses that they are all armed and it would only change the figures very slightly
then you typed some emoticons and accused me of harping on, effectively ignoring the argument again because you have no answer

Anyway as I'm harping on let me reiterate that even if you halve my numbers you still have 12 000 000 MDC being done every minute to the CS army and that's assuming that only 50 000 are even firing or doing damage.

[RainOfSteel]

Let's see if I can do a better summation this time around.

This summary will not discuss the total and absolute fantasy that is the size of Holmes' force and the amount of vehicles and bots it possesses.

• Tolkeen Forces Holmes North: I won't go too far into this except to say that I find it highly unlikely. A concerted attempt at a break-out in another direction would undoubtedly produced fewer casualties than 25%.
• Holmes Orders to the Troops: SoT 5: Holmes orders his troops not to fire, and to use smoke (as an irritant), jabs, and pokes to keep the Xiticix at bay because he has guessed that the Xiticix might not react badly to be gassed and battered (why he guessed this, we'll never know). His orders are for his troops to move at 10 MPH or less so as not to irritate the Xiticix (who don't like to see things moving at over 10 MPH), except that he has already ordered that an irritant (smoke) be used on the Xiticix. Irritate them, not irritate them? Hmm. There is no mention of the troops being disarmed or having their e-clips taken away from them, assuming that this occurred is pointless speculation.
• CS Army Responses to the Orders: The opinions of our ex-military personnel are split. Some believe that officers would be fragged, others believe that this wouldn't happen. In desperate crisis situations, the discipline of troops is affected. Some troops will shine under these conditions (IMO, these would be the honorable elite, it is hard to shine under adversity if you are a craven coward at heart). Some troops will not do so well. And some will simply go to pieces. In a sample of 400k troops, you will get a massive spectrum of response. Up to and including snapping and going bonkers.
  
  • Officer Fragging: Some officers would get fragged. Enough ex-military personnel here have testified that this would be so, and we can reliably take this to mean that at least a few instances would occur. The response from most troops would be, I feel, to stomp on the perpetrators. However, in Evil-aligned groups, the comrades of the perpetrators would do nothing and blame it on Tolkeen Mind Melters. (They aren't in the Hiveland yet!)
  • Going Bonkers: Shell shock isn't a term used often anymore, but the simple fact of it is, some troops, when faced with impossible horror, break. They either flee or they open fire with their weapon, sometimes with no discrimination. We're talking about small numbers here. Perhaps only 50 or a 100 out of 400,000. The Xiticix are going to be targets of this. It will happen.
  • Disregarding Orders: In a life-and-death moment, the chances are that the no-fire order will be disobeyed. Good-aligned troops will have the highest discipline and may just be willing to sacrifice themselves even to this fate, but even some Good-aligned troops won't. The chances that the Evil-aligned population of the army will disregard orders are high. A portion of the CS army is made up of sheer opportunists who are in it for their lust for violence, greed, and lording it over others. Overall, the discipline of the Evil-aligned troops must be considered low to terrible. Only the threat of military justice keeps them in line most of the time, and then only with respect to the CS and because they are given time to vent their criminal insanity upon magi and D-Bees. The threat of death from the boogey-man Xiticix will not sit well with Evil-aligned individuals. If just 20% of 400,000 are Evil, that's 80,000 Evil individuals. 80,000 chances per minute during the 72-hour sojourn through the Hivelands that the orders will be disregard. Since 25% of those 80,000 (20,000) are in fact killed, I find the probability that a lot of them would have disregarded the no-fire order to be very high. And then there are all the selfish troops, who will also be disinclined to follow the
  • Overall: The patently obvious huge probability that several troopers in Holmes' forces would open fire is so large that I feel it can be regarded as a certainty. The Xiticix would have taken fire from the CS army and some Xiticix would have died. It is ludicrous to assert otherwise.
• Holmes Enters the Duluth Hive: Holmes takes his 400,000 into the Duluth Hiveland. There will be 9,000-11,000 APCs, plus thousands of bots and tanks and other vehicles. My conservative estimate of column length was 95 miles. Let's take time to repeat that, 95 miles of column length for the army. Except for a handful of vehicles with medium range missiles, they will not be able to cover each other beyond 3000-6000 feet. So, for the most part, no more than three miles worth of the force can defend against a Xiticix attack.
• Movement of the CS Army: The CS army will be mounted on vehicles, either as passengers or as crews. There is no chance the majority, the infantry, can walk for 72 hours. Forget it. It isn't going to happen. Any that weren't carried would have died. Perhaps a part of the 25% who died were those who walked into the territory at the beginning, a sort of automatic KIA pool, but it doesn't matter, as the remainder would have been mounted.
• Xiticix Responses to Invasion:
  
  • Not Killing When Not Necessary: WB23:XI states that the Xiticix do not kill without need. This is covered on WB23:XI p.10 and p.11 when it describes the cases where the Xiticix do not kill. It is also excluded by the case that states that they must destroy the enemy ("20 and over").
  • Groups of 20 or More: WB23:XI p.11. It's been cited and quoted. Everyone here should know what the text says by now. The reaction to this case is to destroy the members of the group. There is nothing about the group having to attack the Xiticix. There is nothing about the group having to threaten the Xiticix. There is nothing about the group having to challenge the Xiticix. The only thing that is there is that the group has to have 20 or more individuals. Nothing else. The mere existence of a group of 20 or more will cause the Xiticix to want to destroy them. There are no other cases for numbers above this, so this is it. Asserting that other cases exists is non-canon speculation.
  • Attacking Anything They Notice: Once riled (by some of Holmes' troops killing them), they should have attacked en masse and with no mercy.
  • Attack Upon The Xiticix: We have established the likelihood that the Xiticix will be attacked in a lethal manner by at least some of Holmes' troops as a probability approaching so close to certainty that we might as well conclude that it happened. The Xiticix would have been attacked. Can anyone successfully argue in favor of the Xiticix taking casualties without going into total destroy the enemy mode? I doubt it.
  • Raiding Swarms: The Xiticix send out raiding swarms after they've been attacked. Some of Holmes' troops would have fired upon and killed some Xiticix. If that isn't an attack, then wiping out all Xiticix to the last is also not an attack. In any event, since the Xiticix are required to destroy all groups of "20 or more" (regardless of what they are doing in the Hivelands or how peaceably they might appear to other humans to be behaving), then they should have been committing an out-and-out attack upon the CS army. This would have resulted in two outcomes. The annihilation of the CS army with no response (a laughable outcome, that is, the part about the CS army having no response), or the annihilation of the CS army while firing back at the Xiticix. That firing back, is, of course an attack, would also bring down a raiding swarm (except they'd have all been killed, and so none of them would have been leaving the Hiveland). The fact that Holmes' forces would have killed some of them anyway through disregarding orders, of course, would also be an attack.
• Canon Xiticix Response to Holmes: SoT 5 tells us that the Xiticix allowed Holmes to enter their territory. As noted above, every element of the CS army should have caused the Xiticix to become agitated and enraged. However, all they do is fly around and engage in occasional attacks over a 72 hour period that only amounts to killing 25% of the 400,000 troops, all of whom do nothing in their own defense except use smoke, jab, and poke the Xiticix. All of these three things would only enrage the Xiticix, as all of them are offensive actions and in no way defensive by any stretch (smoke is not defensive if it is being used as a chemical warfare element). Jabbing and poking is not defensive (it would require attack rolls, and sorry, but anything that requires the mechanics of attack roll is an attack.) The canon jabs and pokes were, in fact, attacks upon the Xiticix. They are couched in terms that state they were defensive, but they were actually attacks, pure and simple. The Xiticix could only have reacted badly to being attacked, and yet, mysteriously, they did not. This is a contradiction. Two, in fact. Jabs and pokes are stated to defensive, and yet it is obvious they are not. The Xiticix will destroy those who attack them, but they do not.
• Canon CS Army Actions In the Hivelands: All 400,000 troops do exactly what they're told despite the fact that the chances of this happening are so low as to make it absolutely ludicrous.
• Defeat in Detail: If a portion of the Xiticix swarm lands on one end of the CS army column, and destroys it with overwhelming mass, it can then roll onwards over the whole column, destroying it easily. This has many benefits from the point of view of the Xiticix. Letting Holmes' army go has no benefits from the point of view of our little xenophobic bugs. What? Is it a goodwill gesture? Yeah, right.
• Food & Water & Ammo & Repairs: The CS army was out of supply after it left the Hiveland. Please, discussion about getting further supplies (by whatever means) would indicate that the CS high command knew they weren't dead, and they didn't know, so it didn't happen. I've stated it five or six times (or so it would seem), but apparently I'll have to do it again. It is not possible for a force of 300,000 troops to feed and water itself independently in the wilderness. After a couple of weeks, they'd be starving. The army would have to move constantly and work all day and parts of the night on hunting and gathering, and it wouldn't be enough in the end because "ye ol'" wilderness is not going to cough up enough meat and veggies for 300,000 troops. It ain't going to happen.
• Staying Hidden: 300,000 troops, constantly on the move, devastating the wilderness by stripping it of wood for fires and animals and plants for food, not to mention leaving 10-20 giant latrines filled with human waste (no, it couldn't be disguised, really, it couldn't be), all without anyone noticing it and reporting it to Tolkeen? The idea that they went undiscovered is just ludicrous.

I can only conceive of one reason that all this happened. Using Poor Yorrick was the most idiotic thing King Creed could have done (perhaps next to becoming evil), and fate launched a mind-blowingly improbable demise upon him and his people as the price for using it. This would include the little skull making sure that the Duluth hive was about to spawn another queen, temporarily placing the hive in a state of confusion and tension, and thus making the Xiticix behave in a highly uncharacteristic manner (including not disgorging their full force to fall upon the CS army).

[Mech-Viper Prime]

well the way only as two outcomes one most of xiticix in the duluth hiveland are death and holmes makes it out with more then half of his forceand goes thru the hiveland and the elder queen goes into a overdrive to reproduced the loss xiticix meanwhile the duluth hiveland becames a hostile place to be but holmes survives a little more beat up, less numbers and still able to launch a sneak attack on tolkeen, then as the detail comes out, Holmes becames even more legendary and the men under his command became even more loyal to him, or perhaps the Elder Xiticix Queen or one of the young queens has developed the ability to see the future and some how show the queen this future and the queen passes the word to not to attack in full force and to only do attacks if they are still on course with the main hive, and once holmes direction away from the hive the queen orders a hold on all major attacks. but hey that is my take on it.

[Braden Campbell]

:sticks his head in to look at the post:

Damn...

is this thing still going on?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

:sticks his head in to look at the post:

Damn...

is this thing still going on?

nope just going over a few details

[tenakafurey]

Tolkeen Forces Holmes North: I won't go too far into this except to say that I find it highly unlikely. A concerted attempt at a break-out in another direction would undoubtedly produced fewer casualties than 25%.

Holmes thought otherwise. He may have been wrong.

Holmes Orders to the Troops: SoT 5: Holmes orders his troops not to fire, and to use smoke (as an irritant), jabs, and pokes to keep the Xiticix at bay because he has guessed that the Xiticix might not react badly to be gassed and battered (why he guessed this, we'll never know). His orders are for his troops to move at 10 MPH or less so as not to irritate the Xiticix (who don't like to see things moving at over 10 MPH), except that he has already ordered that an irritant (smoke) be used on the Xiticix. Irritate them, not irritate them?

[

Two different kinds of irritate. One means to make mad…one means to make…well…itchy. Or whatever the Xiticix equivalent is. It’s also possible this was meant more for the CS than the Xiticix.

Officer Fragging: Some officers would get fragged. Enough ex-military personnel here have testified that this would be so, and we can reliably take this to mean that at least a few instances would occur. The response from most troops would be, I feel, to stomp on the perpetrators.

And if they were going to kill their officers over this, they simply wouldn’t have entered the Hivelands. They’d likely run when they realized Holmes plan. And would likely die in glorious battle against the demonic Tolkeen forces.

Going Bonkers: Shell shock isn't a term used often anymore, but the simple fact of it is, some troops, when faced with impossible horror, break. They either flee or they open fire with their weapon, sometimes with no discrimination. We're talking about small numbers here. Perhaps only 50 or a 100 out of 400,000. The Xiticix are going to be targets of this. It will happen.

At which point, it comes down to the Xiticix response. P10-11 suggests they’ll all go crazy and attack en masse. P17 suggest the Xiticix are more sophisticated than that – including the use of hit and run attacks and feint when faced with large units. SoT5 tells us they didn’t attack en masse (they can’t have). And WB:20 tells us the Xiticix do not see nomads as encroaching on their domain, and are seemingly content to drive them away…if they attack at all.

Disregarding Orders: In a life-and-death moment, the chances are that the no-fire order will be disobeyed.

Yes. At which point it again comes down to the Xiticix response….kill the perpetrator, or kill the group. Again, P10 …with its reference to the Xiticix killing cheaters….could be taken to imply they would only attack the one who fired. This interpretation could also fit in with WBCanada and its assertion that the Xiticix are content to drive nomads away.

However, WB23 tells us the Xiticix are likely to – if not definitely will – swarm. But does so wrt groups of 20 or more. Juts as it is unreasonable to expect the CS troops to all hold fire, it is unreasonable to take this figure as being indicative of a Xiticix response to a group of 400,000 people…or nomads. Especially since such an assertion arguably contradicts P17 because swarm tactics against groups of 20 or more do not really require hit and runs or feints or an other large scale tactics.

Not Killing When Not Necessary: WB23:XI states that the Xiticix do not kill without need. This is covered on WB23:XI p.10 and p.11 when it describes the cases where the Xiticix do not kill. It is also excluded by the case that states that they must destroy the enemy ("20 and over").

As I said, it is unreasonable to take that figure as totally covering every contingency. SoT5, parts of WB23, and WB20 all show this. Given that, the response to Holmes need not be “Destroy to the last man” as you suggest. Such a simplistic reading merely means contradictions raised elsewhere.

Attacking Anything They Notice: Once riled (by some of Holmes' troops killing them)

I don’t see anything in WB23 to suggest killing Xiticix “riles them”.

Raiding Swarms: The Xiticix send out raiding swarms after they've been attacked.

According to WB23, it’s after the hive itself has been attacked. There are other situations, but attacking a group of Xiticix isn’t one of them. If it was, you’d be seeing a lot of raiding swarms.

Some of Holmes' troops would have fired upon and killed some Xiticix. If that isn't an attack, then wiping out all Xiticix to the last is also not an attack.

And if it’s done in response to a Xiticix attack, it’s self-defence.

In any event, since the Xiticix are required to destroy all groups of "20 or more" (regardless of what they are doing in the Hivelands or how peaceably they might appear to other humans to be behaving)

And I think this is the main area you are stuck on. It is demonstrably not true. It’s contradicted by WB20, parts of WB23, SoT5. They’ll attack large groups. If necessary, they’ll destroy them. But I don’t see anything that states that the destruction of said group is the actual aim, as opposed to say, removing the threat or driving it away. That it often will mean the destruction of the group isn’t really relevant.

Jabbing and poking is not defensive (it would require attack rolls, and sorry, but anything that requires the mechanics of attack roll is an attack.) The canon jabs and pokes were, in fact, attacks upon the Xiticix. They are couched in terms that state they were defensive, but they were actually attacks, pure and simple.

A man walks up to you in the street and punches you without warning. That is an attack.
If you reacted in time and pushed him away, that would be self-defence.

Defeat in Detail: If a portion of the Xiticix swarm lands on one end of the CS army column, and destroys it with overwhelming mass, it can then roll onwards over the whole column, destroying it easily. This has many benefits from the point of view of the Xiticix. Letting Holmes' army go has no benefits from the point of view of our little xenophobic bugs. What? Is it a goodwill gesture? Yeah, right.

What benefit is it to destroy something that is no threat?

EJL

[Killer Cyborg]

Holmes Orders to the Troops: SoT 5: Holmes orders his troops not to fire, and to use smoke (as an irritant), jabs, and pokes to keep the Xiticix at bay because he has guessed that the Xiticix might not react badly to be gassed and battered (why he guessed this, we'll never know). His orders are for his troops to move at 10 MPH or less so as not to irritate the Xiticix (who don't like to see things moving at over 10 MPH), except that he has already ordered that an irritant (smoke) be used on the Xiticix. Irritate them, not irritate them?

[

Two different kinds of irritate. One means to make mad…one means to make…well…itchy. Or whatever the Xiticix equivalent is. It’s also possible this was meant more for the CS than the Xiticix.

BTW, does Xiticix Kingdoms ever mention Xiticix having an aversion to smoke?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

who knows maybe holmes had a few canisters of ZK-12.

wonder what happened to the cities of Markeen,Iron town, North Fork and Big sands?

[Killer Cyborg]

who knows maybe holmes had a few canisters of ZK-12.

No.

wonder what happened to the cities of Markeen,Iron town, North Fork and Big sands?

Yes.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

keeping them on oneself is more than sufficient to put those bugs at bay.

But my previous mention of this has largely been ignored... several times.

i know

Page numbers and references would help.

GM screen's Adventure book,page 24

[grandmaster z0b]

keeping them on oneself is more than sufficient to put those bugs at bay.

But my previous mention of this has largely been ignored... several times.

i know

Page numbers and references would help.

GM screen's Adventure book,page 24

Are adventures considered canon? If so then the adventure in Xiticix Invasion makes it clear that poisons, toxins and disease will probably not work on the Xiticix although the final effect is left to the GM.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

a) I don't make that claim.
b) What would that have to do with your alleged point?

nice job on messing up the quotes

Nice dodge.
Answer the question anyway.

natural 20's work all the time
which question was that ?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Did we mention White Noise Generators?

Coalition Soldiers regularly use them page 37

As for smoke, there is nothing for it, but it


Hell maybe he has a couple of boom guns mount on some of his vechiles, and fire them off using the sonic boom as a weapon

then you got the two coalition bases that have operations against the xiticix still going

[cornholioprime]

Maybe someone (or two) should write a short story about what really happened to Holmes and his men. Did they get caught in a time warp? Did they happen to get good intel and were prepared for the Hivelands? Did they ally with pro-CS magic users to survive? Did they really die and it was all (the SoT) a bad dream?

Maybe it could be a Rifter contest and KS can pick the best one?

THIS part of the Story isn't "possible."

It wasn't the CS from whence much of the information on Xiticix came from, but "God" (Kevin) Himself, describing universal Xiticix Behaviour and Tactics from an omniscient, God's eye point of view.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

keeping them on oneself is more than sufficient to put those bugs at bay.

But my previous mention of this has largely been ignored... several times.

i know

Page numbers and references would help.

GM screen's Adventure book,page 24

Nice try. The ZK-12 isn't a bug repellant, it kills all life forms, but if you read the fine print, even lesser supernatural creatures, which Xiticix happen to be, get a save versus poison or fall sick. It won't even kill them, just give them penalties, which still wouldn't stop them from attacking.

Not to mention the CS doesn't have the ZK-12. Maybe in your adventure, but Remington's Raiders are mercs, not official CS, and it even says in the adventure that the chemical will be destroyed in the adventure no matter what. Nobody has it officially.

dont matter drop 6 of them in a hive one way or another you got less bugs to deal with, but yes its unlikely holmes had it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

okay. I'm probably going to get blasted for this... but I have not my books yet.

Who won the Tolkeen Siege? I was under the impression that the CS did.....

you dont have the book but you dare add your opinions to this debate yes the Mightly Heroic men, women, dog boys , battle cats , and skelebots of Coaliton States won the day, even the heroic men and women of Free Quebec helped in Tolkeen defeat. All Hail Emperor Prosek, All Hail Prime Minster James Lorne,

[Nxla666]

keeping them on oneself is more than sufficient to put those bugs at bay.

But my previous mention of this has largely been ignored... several times.

i know

Page numbers and references would help.

GM screen's Adventure book,page 24

Nice try. The ZK-12 isn't a bug repellant, it kills all life forms, but if you read the fine print, even lesser supernatural creatures, which Xiticix happen to be, get a save versus poison or fall sick. It won't even kill them, just give them penalties, which still wouldn't stop them from attacking.

Not to mention the CS doesn't have the ZK-12. Maybe in your adventure, but Remington's Raiders are mercs, not official CS, and it even says in the adventure that the chemical will be destroyed in the adventure no matter what. Nobody has it officially.

ZK-12 kills Xiticix, that is what it was designed to do.

If all it did was make the "sick" then how did one of the Duluth hatcheries get obliterated by it.

[RainOfSteel]

BTW, does Xiticix Kingdoms ever mention Xiticix having an aversion to smoke?

Not specifically, at least as far as my scanning through the entries has gone.

I can only assume that their suseptibility to smoke is the same as a human's. If they get a big whiff of smoke, then their respiratory system will experience severe distress.

This can put humans in the hospital, and who knows what would happen to the bugs. Severe smoke inhalation would probably cause one to become severely disoriented, land, and possibly twitch and/or flop around.* This would enrage all the other Xiticix, who would clearly and obviously understand what the source of the damage was.

If the the smoke wasn't sufficiently irritating, then using it in the first place would have utterly useless, and the Xiticix would have ignored it as meaningless.

The idea that artificially generated smoke from combat vehicles was just precisely what irritated the Xiticix enough to keep them away without making them angry is ludicrous. "Ha, ha! Our ordinary everyday smoke is just right for warding off the Xiticix! Ha, ha! Golly gee!"

*While, undoubtedly, being able to sniff the exact combination of aromas in the smoke and everything else until being overcome.

[grandmaster z0b]

keeping them on oneself is more than sufficient to put those bugs at bay.

But my previous mention of this has largely been ignored... several times.

i know

Page numbers and references would help.

GM screen's Adventure book,page 24

Nice try. The ZK-12 isn't a bug repellant, it kills all life forms, but if you read the fine print, even lesser supernatural creatures, which Xiticix happen to be, get a save versus poison or fall sick. It won't even kill them, just give them penalties, which still wouldn't stop them from attacking.

Not to mention the CS doesn't have the ZK-12. Maybe in your adventure, but Remington's Raiders are mercs, not official CS, and it even says in the adventure that the chemical will be destroyed in the adventure no matter what. Nobody has it officially.

ZK-12 kills Xiticix, that is what it was designed to do.

If all it did was make the "sick" then how did one of the Duluth hatcheries get obliterated by it.

The text contradicts itself. Should we be surprised? Are Xiticix not considered lesser supernatural creatures? I thought supernatural strength and endurance essentially made one a lesser supernatural creature? If they are, the description of ZK-12 says it only makes them sick if they fail a save.

Is the ret-con bug to blame here, like Xiticix melee weapons suddenly doing MDC for no reason? Probably.

Well I don't think nits and grubs are considered to be supernatural, or if they are they wouldn't have the same PE and bonus to save. It's possible that the chemical could take out an entire hatchery, some would have survived but they would have been sick and possibly left to die anyway.

[Nxla666]

keeping them on oneself is more than sufficient to put those bugs at bay.

But my previous mention of this has largely been ignored... several times.

i know

Page numbers and references would help.

GM screen's Adventure book,page 24

Nice try. The ZK-12 isn't a bug repellant, it kills all life forms, but if you read the fine print, even lesser supernatural creatures, which Xiticix happen to be, get a save versus poison or fall sick. It won't even kill them, just give them penalties, which still wouldn't stop them from attacking.

Not to mention the CS doesn't have the ZK-12. Maybe in your adventure, but Remington's Raiders are mercs, not official CS, and it even says in the adventure that the chemical will be destroyed in the adventure no matter what. Nobody has it officially.

ZK-12 kills Xiticix, that is what it was designed to do.

If all it did was make the "sick" then how did one of the Duluth hatcheries get obliterated by it.

The text contradicts itself. Should we be surprised? Are Xiticix not considered lesser supernatural creatures? I thought supernatural strength and endurance essentially made one a lesser supernatural creature? If they are, the description of ZK-12 says it only makes them sick if they fail a save.

Is the ret-con bug to blame here, like Xiticix melee weapons suddenly doing MDC for no reason? Probably.

Well I don't think nits and grubs are considered to be supernatural, or if they are they wouldn't have the same PE and bonus to save. It's possible that the chemical could take out an entire hatchery, some would have survived but they would have been sick and possibly left to die anyway.

The text stated that there were several dead adult Xiticix with no visible injuries, and the Xits werent Sup. Nat. at the time of the adventure, they were still RMB and Rifter article types, WB23 was still awhile away IIRC.

[Killer Cyborg]

a) I don't make that claim.
b) What would that have to do with your alleged point?

nice job on messing up the quotes

Nice dodge.
Answer the question anyway.

natural 20's work all the time
which question was that ?

What was your point?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i notice all the dodges about the white noise and using boom guns

[grandmaster z0b]

i notice all the dodges about the white noise and using boom guns

OK
There is no mention of either method in the books and I would think that as the Xiticix are so sensitive to noise they would see both as a kind of attack.

Also there is no way the Holmes just happened to have a couple of Boomguns lying around and no way that firing them wouldn't be seen as a direct attack which goes directly against holmes' order.

Now I notice you still haven't addressed my point about 12 000 000 MDC to the CS troops per minute even if only 50 000 Xiticix are firing rifles and the other 100 000 are doing nothing.

This was supposed to go on for 72 hours?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i notice all the dodges about the white noise and using boom guns

OK
There is no mention of either method in the books and I would think that as the Xiticix are so sensitive to noise they would see both as a kind of attack.

Also there is no way the Holmes just happened to have a couple of Boomguns lying around and no way that firing them wouldn't be seen as a direct attack which goes directly against holmes' order.

Now I notice you still haven't addressed my point about 12 000 000 MDC to the CS troops per minute even if only 50 000 Xiticix are firing rifles and the other 100 000 are doing nothing.

This was supposed to go on for 72 hours?

actually if holmes wanted Glitter boys PA in one of his units, he would have the and the same goes for white noise generators , cant see him doing operation being that close to the xiticix without them .

quite simple i dont believe 50,000 xiticix fired at the coalition troops and i see nothing to support your or KC thoery on that they were attack by gun-toting bugs.

[Killer Cyborg]

i see nothing to support your or KC thoery on that they were attack by gun-toting bugs.

Lots of xiticix carry guns. You quoted the numbers yourself.
What's your theory, that every bug with a gun was sick that day?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i see nothing to support your or KC thoery on that they were attack by gun-toting bugs.

Lots of xiticix carry guns. You quoted the numbers yourself.
What's your theory, that every bug with a gun was sick that day?

or was killed, remember the two coalition bases in the area were fighting them before SOT and odds are were still running ops in duluth Hiveland

[grandmaster z0b]

i notice all the dodges about the white noise and using boom guns

OK
There is no mention of either method in the books and I would think that as the Xiticix are so sensitive to noise they would see both as a kind of attack.

Also there is no way the Holmes just happened to have a couple of Boomguns lying around and no way that firing them wouldn't be seen as a direct attack which goes directly against holmes' order.

Now I notice you still haven't addressed my point about 12 000 000 MDC to the CS troops per minute even if only 50 000 Xiticix are firing rifles and the other 100 000 are doing nothing.

This was supposed to go on for 72 hours?

actually if holmes wanted Glitter boys PA in one of his units, he would have the and the same goes for white noise generators , cant see him doing operation being that close to the xiticix without them .

Why would Holmes have a non-CS piece of military hardware? It was one of the things that created the split between the CS and FQ. Surely it would have mentioned somewhere that they were using GlitterBoys in SoT.

Also why on earth would Holmes carry white noise generators with him when he was going to attack Tolkeen forces? He was escaping into the hivelands, he wasn't expecting to encounter them. Is there even any indication that they would work against Xiticix?

In the end you said it yourself

quite simple i dont believe 50,000 xiticix fired at the coalition troops and i see nothing to support your or KC thoery on that they were attack by gun-toting bugs.

What apart from the fact that you said a third of all warriors carry the TK rifles? So I adjusted my maths to show that even if only a third were firing that the CS didn't stand a chance.

In the end you don't want to believe it.

[RainOfSteel]

Tolkeen Forces Holmes North: [...]

Holmes Orders to the Troops: [...]

Two different kinds of irritate. One means to make mad…one means to make…well…itchy. Or whatever the Xiticix equivalent is. It’s also possible this was meant more for the CS than the Xiticix.

You're seriously suggesting this?*

The cases are:

1. Smoke Was Substantially Irritating: This would drive the Xiticix mad with rage.
2. Smoke Was Not Irritating: The Xiticix ignored it. (This apparently didn't happen.)
3. Smoke Was Just Right: Similar to the Goldilocks fairy tale.

I assert that case #1 has the best merits. The smoke would have driven the Xiticix mad with rage because it would have disabled a substantial number (perhaps a few hundred or thousand) of them with smoke inhalation issues.

Officer Fragging: [...]

Going Bonkers: [...]

Disregarding Orders: [...]

Yes. At which point it again comes down to the Xiticix response….kill the perpetrator, or kill the group. Again, P10

The Xiticix would pick and chose amongst a group with fine care and careful attention?*

No. That would not happen, not in a billion, trillion years. Not even unto the end of time. It is totally outside the character and mindset of the Xiticix, with their "incredibly aggressive nature" (WB23:XI p.10).

…with its reference to the Xiticix killing cheaters

Please provide the exact cite for this (down to the line, please).

However, WB23 tells us the Xiticix are likely to – if not definitely will – swarm. But does so wrt groups of 20 or more. Juts as it is unreasonable to expect the CS troops to all hold fire, it is unreasonable to take this figure as being indicative of a Xiticix response to a group of 400,000 people…or nomads.

Except that WB23:XI states this twice.

There is the "20 and over" case on p.11.

And there is the "8 and over" case on p.10 for those who draw attention to themselves (as 400k soldiers certainly do).

Both entries state that the Xiticix will destroy the intruders.

WB23:XI also states (this has also been quoted previously):

[...] it is in their nature to invade, conquer, and destroy. Their survival--their "life"--comes at the exclusion of all others. This is evident in their incredibly aggressive nature. Moreover, they regards all other dominant life forms as their enemies and systematically exterminate the.

It is crystal clear from this what the Xiticix should do in the event of invasion by an army of 400k soldiers strung out in a line and read for defeat in detail, especially when there is little to no risk to themselves, every benefit to gain from doing so, and no benefit to gain from not doing so.

Benefits From Destroying the CS Army: The destruction of the humans. The removal of the human MD/MDC equipped army that is a threat to the Xiticix by its mere existence. Making future expansion easier by getting rid of enemies they'd only have to kill later anyway. Getting rid of an enemy when they were vulnerable and when it would be of a extremely easy to do so through a defeat in detail of the enemy.

Benefits From Not Destroying the CS Army: None.

Not Killing When Not Necessary: [...]

As I said, it is unreasonable to take that figure as totally covering every contingency.

And as I have already stated, you may make as many non-canon speculations as you wish.

The canon is stated.

There is no reason to assume otherwise. Especially when there is no reason to do so.

And that goes for forming stories for metaplots in the milieu.

It is the classic case of a milieu's background, its "premise", being laid out, and then being violated either for convenience, or as I strongly suspect, simply inadvertently.

SoT 5 represents the violation of the premise of the milieu. This type of violation is a hideous crime in good writing.

I have tossed books in the garbage for less, and I can tell you that I know other people who do the same when faced with such . . . gaffs.

Yes, the author may be the one who makes the final decisions, but flip-flopping about can hardly be called the most attractive option (to me) . . . especially when other options were available that did not require such flip-flopping.

SoT5, parts of WB23, and WB20 all show this. Given that, the response to Holmes need not be “Destroy to the last man” as you suggest.

SoT 5 might as well have been in error (it wasn't, but as I said, it might as well have been).

WB23 disagrees with you, and it is the primary source on the subject, in any event.

WB20, I can't say, because I don't have it.

Such a simplistic reading merely means contradictions raised elsewhere.

If things are read simplistically, and some portions of the primary source are disregarded, and there is no objection to the flip-flopping of the established premise of the milieu, then no contradictions might be located.

However, I do not read things simplistically, I do not disregard some portions of the primary source, and I do object to the flip-flopping of the established premise of the milieu, and so I locate many contradictions.

Attacking Anything They Notice:

I don’t see anything in WB23 to suggest killing Xiticix “riles them”.

You're seriously suggesting that the Xiticix will ignore the slaying of their fellows by their enemies?*

If the Xiticix will launch attacks to destroy intruders just for entering their territory, then the far more serious situation of killing a Xiticix while inside the territory will bring the others down.

In any event, you are mistaken in your belief that WB23:XI says nothing about this.**

WB23:XI p.40-41: Death Scent. This makes it crystal clear that the Xiticix consider the deaths of their fellows, even one, to be murder. They will "investigate and retaliate".

And yes, retaliate does mean that they will kill the offenders. Also, the attack will generate a raiding swarm that will not care that it has no specific attackers to kill. The raiding swarm will commence just as soon as there are no intruders left in the Hivelands.

And no, it does not mean that they will do a US Justice system investigation to locate the specific individuals responsible and single them out for that retaliation. It means they will descend with sufficient troops to destroy the perpetrators. These Xiticix would most definitely be "riled" and would kill any enemy in the area until there were none left or they died trying. (As is fully indicated by other sections of WB23:XI, all of which have been endlessly cited and quoted.)

Raiding Swarms: [...]

According to WB23, it’s after the hive itself has been attacked.

No, you're mistaken. It says nothing of the kind. As has been repeatedly cited and quoted.**

It says "after an attack".

It does not say "after an attack on the Hive".

I will even cite myself on discussing this before:

Again, the Xiticix were threatened [...]

You mean, the raiding swarm that appears in response to an attack on the hive itself? Something Holmes didn't do?

WB23:XI's information on raiding swarms makes no reference to the need for an attack on the hive itself. Just an "attack".

As can be seen, we went over this before.

This is one of the reasons I keep thinking you aren't reading what I've been writing. (See below.)

There are other situations, but attacking a group of Xiticix isn’t one of them.

You're mistaken.

WB23:XI p.19 makes no categorizations about the types of attacks that will generate a raiding swarm.**

In fact, WB23:XI p.91 says the opposite, "Whether that retaliation is justified or the aggressor is known does not matter." In other words, the Xiticix will launch raiding swarms in response to attacks even if they have no idea who the attacker was! Since they will attack without knowing who the attacker was (and kill indiscriminately while doing so), I can assure you that they will not make precision choices about who they kill or why they're killing . . . that's the nature of being indiscriminate, after all, they're out there killing just to kill (as is clearly indicated in the text).

If it was, you’d be seeing a lot of raiding swarms.

There are a lot of raiding swarms. This is why the Xiticix are viewed as so dangerous.

Some of Holmes' troops would have fired upon and killed some Xiticix. If that isn't an attack, then wiping out all Xiticix to the last is also not an attack.

And if it’s done in response to a Xiticix attack, it’s self-defence.

The Xiticix don't care what the humans think or what their motivation is for what they're doing.

In any event, since the Xiticix are required to destroy all groups of "20 or more" (regardless of what they are doing in the Hivelands or how peaceably they might appear to other humans to be behaving)

And I think this is the main area you are stuck on. It is demonstrably not true.

Demonstrable only by information found outside of the primary source. SoT 5 is hardly credible (to me). Of course, I don't have WB20. Perhaps you would care to, oh, I don't know, actually cite and quote your source?

But I don’t see anything that states that the destruction of said group is the actual aim

Other than the repeated use of the word "destroy"?**

Jabbing and poking is not defensive [..]

A man walks up to you in the street and punches you without warning. That is an attack.
If you reacted in time and pushed him away, that would be self-defense.

So, if I react in time by recognizing that I am being attacked, I can avoid the attack? Yes, and I'll most certainly know that I've been attacked and that will definitely get me riled up.

In any event, you are implying that every single Xiticix managed to avoid every single jab and poke. That's not a supportable assertion. Especially when the Xiticix don't care why they're being attacked or how successful it is. They only care to destroy attackers.

Defeat in Detail: [...]

What benefit is it to destroy something that is no threat?

I explained it in great detail, many times, in many posts.

You ignore the explanations I gave and then ask for one. (You have actually been doing this through this entire conversation, over and over again.)

What? Are you pretending that I didn't write the previous explanations? Did you not read them? Are you going to come back with a cute "Oh, I read them, but they were meaningless," statement? You should realize that if you let my points go unrefuted, then you let them stand or make it appear as though you didn't read them. Either way, it weakens your assertions.

I refer you to further up in this post (although given the many previous times you haven't read what I've written, I'm not sure you'll read this, either):
WB23:XI also states (this has also been quoted previously):

[...] it is in their nature to invade, conquer, and destroy. Their survival--their "life"--comes at the exclusion of all others. This is evident in their incredibly aggressive nature. Moreover, they regards all other dominant life forms as their enemies and systematically exterminate the.

Dead humans = Beneficial to the Xiticix. It's pure and simple. That is the way the Xiticix are. It's their nature.

-----------------------------------

*I honestly can't believe you made these suggestions. If we weren't in a serious discussion, I'd be inclined to dismiss them as humorous suggestions on your part. But I didn't. I answered them seriously (or rather, as seriously as I was able).

**Apparently, we are looking at different books.

[RainOfSteel]

Also why on earth would Holmes carry white noise generators with him when he was going to attack Tolkeen forces? He was escaping into the hivelands, he wasn't expecting to encounter them. Is there even any indication that they would work against Xiticix?

Actually, WB23:XI p.37 col.2 says that the use of white noise generators is common against the Xiticix.

SoT 5 says nothing about them being present or being used, but given the other contradictory information it presents, this is hardly surprising.

In any event, I would also expect that Holmes' army would not be equipped with significant numbers of these devices.

[grandmaster z0b]

Also why on earth would Holmes carry white noise generators with him when he was going to attack Tolkeen forces? He was escaping into the hivelands, he wasn't expecting to encounter them. Is there even any indication that they would work against Xiticix?

Actually, WB23:XI p.37 col.2 says that the use of white noise generators is common against the Xiticix.

SoT 5 says nothing about them being present or being used, but given the other contradictory information it presents, this is hardly surprising.

In any event, I would also expect that Holmes' army would not be equipped with significant numbers of these devices.

So it is possible, but again highly unlikely, also the speakers he would need to effect over 100 000 bugs would be huge.

[RainOfSteel]

So it is possible, but again highly unlikely, also the speakers he would need to effect over 100 000 bugs would be huge.

The reality of the situation would be that Holmes had nothing of the kind.

It would have been a few dozen or hundred vehicles, at most, with extra mounted systems. Those systems would be very short in range (given PB' usual standards for this sort of thing), and they would not have significantly affected the overall outcome.