Achilles/Brad Pitt in Troy

[Sentinel]

Okay, I won't get into a detailed break-down of the film.
I really only want to discuss the fighting style displayed by Pitt in Troy.
Pretty good stuff: intricate and visually stimulating and engaging.

How would you best encompass that sort of HtH combat style in N&SS?

[Sentinel]

I was wondering in particular how to best express the subtle movements of the legs and head, and rapid-fire coverage of the normally-vulnerable areas of the body.
Pitts' performance as Achilles: skilled warrior certainly gave the visual impression of how there is a germ of truth in legends (in this case, Achilles: The Warrior who cannot be harmed by weapons).

Looking at N&SS, I was beginning to think about an Oriental Achilles: perhaps a Chinese monk with Body hardenings like Chi-Gung, or a Korean Hwa Rang warrior with Kangeiko/Shochu Geiko and Stone Ox, or something along those lines.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Okay, I won't get into a detailed break-down of the film.
I really only want to discuss the fighting style displayed by Pitt in Troy.
Pretty good stuff: intricate and visually stimulating and engaging.

How would you best encompass that sort of HtH combat style in N&SS?

I think the "movie style" martial art in mystic china is exsactly what you need

[Sentinel]

Okay, I won't get into a detailed break-down of the film.
I really only want to discuss the fighting style displayed by Pitt in Troy.
Pretty good stuff: intricate and visually stimulating and engaging.

How would you best encompass that sort of HtH combat style in N&SS?

I think the "movie style" martial art in mystic china is exsactly what you need

Chao Ta?
That could do it, I suppose.

I kinda wish HtH: Gladiator were better written (PFRPG: High Seas). If it included a syllabus of attack moves and stuff, like N&SS styles, it could also be of great use.

[Library Ogre]

[
I kinda wish HtH: Gladiator were better written (PFRPG: High Seas). If it included a syllabus of attack moves and stuff, like N&SS styles, it could also be of great use.

And Sentinel is unable to do this because... ?

(I will say I have enough on my plate; I'm working on the slavery article I mentioned, I've got a concept that started out as "Neat things to do with Ectoplasm" and has become "How to logically fix and do neat things with the various lifting psychic powers in Palladium" to work on next, plus I've got two ideas for Dungeons and Dragons I want to work on... a Shaman class and a rework of the Warlock to be more flexible in concept)

[Sentinel]

[
I kinda wish HtH: Gladiator were better written (PFRPG: High Seas). If it included a syllabus of attack moves and stuff, like N&SS styles, it could also be of great use.

And Sentinel is unable to do this because... ?

Even if I did, it wouldn't be canon material.
I suppose I should have said: " I wish Big Kev, or some Palladium person would go back and write that stuff in".

(I will say I have enough on my plate; I'm working on the slavery article I mentioned, I've got a concept that started out as "Neat things to do with Ectoplasm" and has become "How to logically fix and do neat things with the various lifting psychic powers in Palladium" to work on next, plus I've got two ideas for Dungeons and Dragons I want to work on... a Shaman class and a rework of the Warlock to be more flexible in concept)

I'm keeping a pretty full plate myself.

[Guest]

Well, aren't we all lucky I already did and expanded version of Gladiator (especially since my current project plate is overflowing).

[Library Ogre]

There already is a Shaman class, it's in High Seas. I am curious to know if Presence Sense and Telekinesis can be combined, so you can drop or throw something in a general direction where you think someone could be.

Yes, but my Shaman class idea is for D&D, and based off the 2nd edition Shamans supplement, not for PFRPG (I actually do a bit with the PFRPG Shaman in the Mysteries of Magic manuscript; it's an interesting concept that I think a lot of people haven't explored). As for TK and presence sense, sure... provided you have a line of sight, I would allow you to throw something blind. However, affecting people is going to be a lot different.

[sinestus]

based on the motions and the like...
his attacks were functional, not flamboyant...
targeting vitals to kill, not cripple...

so a "gladiator" style wouldn't work (as gladiators are trained to make it look good while killing)

yeah, prolly would need a new martial art if you wanted to be all N&SS about it...

personally,
i would've suggested going a different route,
Heroes Unlimited...
an Achilles with Natural Combat Ability, Extraordinary PP and PS (as implied by the temple sequence...)

but just by a N&SS analysis of the fight, he has a fighting style that would seems to have the following notable features:

Katas: Spear, Shield, Sword (and pairing all)
Moves: Leap Attack, Autododge
Boni: More focused on Strike, then Dodge, with a minimal focus on parry (the shield seems mostly there for anti-ranged combat)

the achiles tactic seems to bank most of it's defence on being able to avoid the hit, or relying on the opponent to care more for their own life than for the kill... thus the all out assault style when attacking...

as opposed to Hector who seems more the defensive side, focusing on parry/dodge over attack...

i'll have to throw the movie in again tomorrow to see if i can get you an Attacks Per Melee count... and see if there are maneuvers i forgot...

[Sentinel]

i'll have to throw the movie in again tomorrow to see if i can get you an Attacks Per Melee count...

Attacks Per Melee aren't so important. I don't really expect a Palladium fighting style to measure up to attacks per melee of films, anime, or real life.

But, thank you all the same.

[Sentinel]

Well, aren't we all lucky I already did and expanded version of Gladiator (especially since my current project plate is overflowing).

Looks good.

I'll have to go back and look at Pancration.

[Marrowlight]

I don't really expect a Palladium fighting style to measure up to attacks per melee of films, anime, or real life.

Truer words have never been written.

[Sentinel]

I don't really expect a Palladium fighting style to measure up to attacks per melee of films, anime, or real life.

Truer words have never been written.

What?
That they don't, or that I don't expect them to?

[Marrowlight]

I don't really expect a Palladium fighting style to measure up to attacks per melee of films, anime, or real life.

Truer words have never been written.

What?
That they don't, or that I don't expect them to?

That they don't.

[sinestus]

it's not that i'd plan out a 1:1 APM ratio... (Jackie Chan's Who Am I killed that)
more a rhythm of the combat...

back in the day when i was all over converting/making martial arts styles for N&&S/PFRPG (ran a "kung fu" world setting quite often) i'd watch the styles i was planning on using to get a feel for the timing of the attacks used as compared to other styles already statted to get an idea of how to stat 'em out...

i've kinda lost interest in the "modular kung-fu" engine i was working on... so this'll give me something durng the down time while waiting for the paint to dry on my warmachine army...

[Sentinel]

so a "gladiator" style wouldn't work (as gladiators are trained to make it look good while killing)

Look good, yes.
But, it's not like they acrobatic, Wu Shu style about it, with cartwheels and back-flips and such.

I'd say Pitts' example would be about as flashy as it gets, especially considering the weight of the weapons and armour.

[sinestus]

so a "gladiator" style wouldn't work (as gladiators are trained to make it look good while killing)

Look good, yes.
But, it's not like they acrobatic, Wu Shu style about it, with cartwheels and back-flips and such.

I'd say Pitts' example would be about as flashy as it gets, especially considering the weight of the weapons and armour.

ok... exceptional attributes aside...

scene analysis by the smigs eye...

opening fight:
dodge oriented,
autodoge+leap attack (possibly a "drop kick" with sword added)

fight with patracles (sparring)
dodge oriented again
weapon kept close, attacks mostly thrusts
couple of throws...
definately not flashy (again, weapon kept close, little slashing, and all attacks for the kill, not to wound)

taking of the beach...
shield doubles as weapon (as it should)
attacks aimed high to down the enemy in a single attack...

taking of the temple...
ok... now we got slashing attacks... but again, almost every one aimed for the head...
a bare minimum of attacks even vaguely aimed at armored position...
(a gladiator wouldn't aim for slit throats as that denies the king/crowd the option of choosing the looser's fate)
and still, attacks are kept functonal... no big dancing spins, no leaping off walls... his feet are firmly planted and his attacks take minimal time...

hector fight...
again, nearly every attack at the head...
offhand motion minimized, where a flashy fighter would constantly counterbalance his attacks, there are long streaches where his shield arm is effectively immobilized, allowing him to focus on maneuvering and the offensive arm..
technique is practical, avoid and counter... no flashy attempts to do both at once...
it isn't until the shields are dropped that his attacks stop targeting the head for the most part... but still the weapon is close to the body until the atack snaps out...
and again, the killing blow is an upper body shot... a handsbreath over and it woulda been another throat hit...

it's most definately a "function over form" style,
leaps are done only to gain access to the same strike zone (the left shoulder, where the shield normally wouldn't protect...)
and he's got maybe 4 strike zones (face, right throat, left throat, belly center) unless he thinks about it.
no "slash the arm to slow the blade"
no hamstrinking
and the few throws he does are usually because the enemy got inside his strike range...


as for "with all that armor"
he's got a hardend leather chestplate, helm, and grieves on when he does the leap... and the rest of the time uses the sheild to counterbalance the spinning dodges... not overly heavy gear...

aside from the leap attack, his flashiest part is lettting the shield spin with the weight of the spear... (aside from that flurry of blows in the hector fight at the end)

IMO, flashy is Ajax... big arse weapon and shield, lots of wide swings, no real care for where it hits (at one point he downs a horse but leaves the rider) and alot of yelling...


really,
it's Boxing, with a sword and shield.
all the useless parts of the fight are removed (including the kicks) in favor of landing one good shot to the face.

[Sentinel]

opening fight:
dodge oriented,
autodoge+leap attack (possibly a "drop kick" with sword added)

Just because he dodged, does not make it an Auto-Dodge.
That could just as easily been a standard dodge.

(a gladiator wouldn't aim for slit throats as that denies the king/crowd the option of choosing the looser's fate)

Fair enough.
When I think of "flashy" techniques, I am generally thinking more acrobatic/Kung-Fu movie like.

technique is practical, avoid and counter... no flashy attempts to do both at once...

This can also reflect the level of skill of the opponent as well. The better the opponent, the more elementary the attacks. Against someone lesser than Hector, more elegant or intricate attacks might have been utilized.

still the weapon is close to the body until the atack snaps out...

Most smart fighters will do this, to minimize the risk of their sword limb.

In Troy, it is necessary to convey the legendary ability of Invulnerability to Achilles, without actually giving him the supernatural power. His style certainly makes it appear that he cannot be cut, because he was certainly never touched in the first place.

it's most definately a "function over form" style

Most definitely.

[sinestus]

opening fight:
dodge oriented,
autodoge+leap attack (possibly a "drop kick" with sword added)

Just because he dodged, does not make it an Auto-Dodge.
That could just as easily been a standard dodge.

i say "autododge" because the motion of the two fighters make the leap-attack seem like a simultanious attack (Achilles just lands his attack first)

technique is practical, avoid and counter... no flashy attempts to do both at once...

This can also reflect the level of skill of the opponent as well. The better the opponent, the more elementary the attacks. Against someone lesser than Hector, more elegant or intricate attacks might have been utilized.

but in all the fights it he doesn't use "eligant" attacks, even in sparring it's very simplistic...

still the weapon is close to the body until the atack snaps out...

Most smart fighters will do this, to minimize the risk of their sword limb.

again, this is more a comment against "gladiator" as people who fight for show tend to be more open with their movements. it's like the difference between stage combat where the fighters stay apart as much as possible so the audience can see the action, and real fighters who get in and get the job done...


thus the "function over form" analysis...

one of the things that kinda sold Troy to me was that the fight sequences were not your nomal "sprawl and splatter" fighting,
that the combat (aside from a handful of sequences) was less for show, more for killing... and that the choreography of the film followed that.

the big note on limb usage was the prolonged, voluntary pinning of one arm... still debating was that for function, or because by that point Achilles knew he'd won the battle... the final sequence of the fight certainly gives the impression of being one-sided...

but back to the matter at hand...
looks to me to be a fairly flexable style (lots of focus on the basic principles without alot of katas or the like to hold it back) that focuses more on getting the job done than spirituality or mastering the body...

so in the end, i'd prolly just say it's little more than an Agent level style, just used by an exceptional person... (assuming all the mymradons are trained in the same style, and many having served for years.... )

[Sentinel]

Though, having the combat flow like the fights in Troy is something entirely different....

That part is so dependant on the players knowing their moves, bonuses, and the mechanics of combat.
To some extent, a certain amount of "stalling" is going to occur simply for the GM and players desrcibing their moves to everyone else.

[sinestus]

Though, having the combat flow like the fights in Troy is something entirely different....

That part is so dependant on the players knowing their moves, bonuses, and the mechanics of combat.
To some extent, a certain amount of "stalling" is going to occur simply for the GM and players desrcibing their moves to everyone else.

this was why i developed a card-based variant of combat... but that's another discussion...

as for speed of reaction time, therein lies one of the benifits of this style (or so it would seem) no "gimme a sec i wanna check the rules on this attack" stalls...
all the strikes are simple,
thrust at face, or slash at face
done and done,
so you could imply a time limit on the players, wherein if they don't respond fast enough (not like they have alot of choices to worry about) they just keep dodging for the round...


as for Zanshin or the like,
again, doesn't seem like a very mystical approach to combat,
achilles never stops to calm himself,
nor falls into patterns of striking,

aside from that leap attack, he doesn't seem to have a single noteworthy attack...
(again, my impression would be a HU over N&SS approach, but that's just me)
for that matter, no one in the movie seems to have overly complicated techniques/styles...

is it hard to believe that Achilles of the movie is just a fellow with a massive PP/PS in a world of normal fellows...

[Sentinel]

is it hard to believe that Achilles of the movie is just a fellow with a massive PP/PS in a world of normal fellows...

No, not so hard to believe.
But, adding moves like Parry/Attack, or Strike/Parry, or other such techniques would further remove Achilles from more common Bonus Whores who simply loaded up on Gymnastics and Acrobatics for the extra PP.

I couldn't help but wonder if this style of fighting couldn't be expressed in something like Zanji, or HtH Kendo, coupled with One Life...(Martial Art Technique), and/or Kobujutsu.

[sinestus]

is it hard to believe that Achilles of the movie is just a fellow with a massive PP/PS in a world of normal fellows...

No, not so hard to believe.
But, adding moves like Parry/Attack, or Strike/Parry, or other such techniques would further remove Achilles from more common Bonus Whores who simply loaded up on Gymnastics and Acrobatics for the extra PP.

I couldn't help but wonder if this style of fighting couldn't be expressed in something like Zanji, or HtH Kendo, coupled with One Life...(Martial Art Technique), and/or Kobujutsu.

ok... One life.... forgot about that...
(replays a couple of the fight scenes... duels tend to start with the same attack)
hmm... since there's no real defence on that opeing attack,
perhaps One Life and One Mind chained together for a massive opening killer attack?

combo moves still don't strike me as an issue aside from combo dodge/attacks (he doesn't seem to work the "parry/attack" angle unless using two weapons)

a variant of Zanji might work... (like zanji as the base, with some weapon swaps...)

fine, i'll submit... if you wanted to just imply he was a kung-fu master with no real advantages over normal people (that anyone could get that good with the training he had) then sure, it'd make a solid martial art...

heck... it'd even survive to N&SS 'cause the techniques could be modernized to using a knife (or concealed bionic claws...)

[Sentinel]

Giving them the special attacks like parry/strike or block/strike, etc. would help this, but I can't play those techniques by the book. Losing all bonuses on a practiced technique just annoys me too (oh, 1st level is as good as 15th! Blah) but then I'm a critic.

Me too, and I use these maneuvers heavily, and I house rule the crap out of them.

[TechnoGothic]

I made an Achilles based character right after Troy.
I used PHYSICAL TRAINING from HU2.

Achilles = Agressive and Deadly
Hector = Defensive and fast

This mimic the movies fighting very well IMHO.
I dont have N&S though. I do have Mystic China.
None of the Oriental martial Arts fit what i saw.

Even using the Physical Training HtHs, both ignored doing Kick attacks altogether, not wanting to open themselves up a killing blow.
I'd say Achilles was Level 13-15, while Hector was level 11-13.

Achilles won because of his Rage against Hector for killing his cousin.
Achilles is not a man to **** off indeed. Hector knew he was outclassed by Achilles.

Was I the only person to think about Physical Training ??

[Sentinel]

I made an Achilles based character right after Troy.
I used PHYSICAL TRAINING from HU2.

Achilles = Agressive and Deadly
Hector = Defensive and fast

This mimic the movies fighting very well IMHO.
I dont have N&S though. I do have Mystic China.
None of the Oriental martial Arts fit what i saw.

Even using the Physical Training HtHs, both ignored doing Kick attacks altogether, not wanting to open themselves up a killing blow.
I'd say Achilles was Level 13-15, while Hector was level 11-13.

Achilles won because of his Rage against Hector for killing his cousin.
Achilles is not a man to **** off indeed. Hector knew he was outclassed by Achilles.

Was I the only person to think about Physical Training ??

I wouldn't have used PT.
One: for Troy, none of the 'supernatural' or mythological elements were used. This precludes Achilles having Superhuman PS. He's just a normal man in this presentation (as opposed to the legends, where he was truly Invulnerable).
Hector likewise would have had EXT PS, which again would have been out of place in this more 'realistic' presentation.

I took the position that both characters eschewed foot attacks because neither of them had a kick-oriented fighting style. If tripping opportunities presented themselves, I'm sure they would have taken them. However, if these two fighters were possessed of an East Oriental style, they would have (likely) had waaaaaay more kicking going on.

One of the shortcomings of N&SS is that it totally ignores fighting disciplines from the rest of the world: Brazillian Capoiera, French Savate, Philipino Escrima, Greco-Roman Pancration (which would suit this example), North American Indian wrestling, African Cat Style, and so on.

[TechnoGothic]

I was tempted saying Ancient Master would work for achilles, just remove the "time in the modern world".

[Sentinel]

Kuseru gave me a good Gladiator write up.
Combined with a Worldly Martial Artist OCC (remove modern skills, and reeplace with skills more approrpiate in a fantasy context), this works rather well.

[sinestus]

meh,

i still don't think a gladiator style would work...


but your game, your flavor...


i don't have the time to present a different spin on in (and in all truth, i'd rather run a more HU style setting anyways, so wouldn't bother at this point)

[Sentinel]

meh,

i still don't think a gladiator style would work...

Looking at some more modern presentations of Pancration, I can see a more cinematic approach, without resorting to high-flying Kung-Fu hijinks.
There are some good presentations from Arvantis and Drager on the subject.


but your game, your flavor...


i don't have the time to present a different spin on in (and in all truth, i'd rather run a more HU style setting anyways, so wouldn't bother at this point)

Truthfully, I'd prefer an approach based more off the legend myself, in which Achilles was Invulnerable, and the gods of Olympus were involved with the conflict at Troy.