Was Holmes' stunt possible?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

its depends on how many here had, the speakers wouldn't have to be big just cover a good size area, and so what, if he had a couple of glitterboys, chi-town still has 12 of them in storage somewhere,odds are holmes had a good number of Soldiers from free quebec who served under him at one time or another who were glitterboy pilots. maybe he had the mechanics and trained cyber medic jury-rig the white noise implants to working the vechiles.

its dont matter if what WB23 said , the 400,000 troops isn't a normal thing so the xiticix willnt act like ita group of 20, just with larger numbers instead of trying to figure out why didnt the Xiticix response in larger numbers,

perhaps the Coalition step up attacks before the SOT even started, or perhaps the queen thought it was a ploy to engage a large force with more numbers lefting the hive defenseless,

[Mech-Viper Prime]

400,000 troops is one hell of a ploy....we send in far less than that to just conquer nations.

that is because we got to go far away a place like mexico or canada we could send everybody in thier own vechiles

[Mech-Viper Prime]

At least you guys get to have your own military vehicle every few persons. We get one every 2 or 3 dozens, the rest march.

Don't let TV fool you. The United States military indeed marches on foot, quite often. The Marine Corps has APC's & LAV's, but it isn't a fully mechanized infantry, nor is the Army fully mechanized either. There is much "humping" to do in the service, if you're lucky you get a ride...if you're not, grab that 80+lbs of gear and get to steppin'.

yeah maybe the grunts, if you going to pick an MOS make sure it comes with a ride

[The Galactus Kid]

Here is my two cents.

Was the stunt Improbable? Hell Yes.

Was it Impossible? No

It was written, and it is canon material. Because of this, I truly think Holmes' stunt was possible. There are plenty of occurances IN HISTORY that were thought to be impossible, but infact were just highly unlikely, and they ended up happening. Thats just my opinion. Either way, 12 pages of bickering about techinicalities that may or may not have been mentioned seems kind of silly. hahaha

Well, I'll see you around the boards.

[The Galactus Kid]

giant insect men are just as plausible as the stunt happening, so I don't really see a problem here.

[The Galactus Kid]

my point still stands...

[The Galactus Kid]

Yeah, it tends to happen that way. I am a huge proponent of the "If you don't like it, Change it" rule. There are oviously alot of people who think that it couldn't have been done, but then tere are others who can see it as completely possible. I say if its good for your game, keep it. If not, simply change it.

[Killer Cyborg]

giant insect men are just as plausible as the stunt happening, so I don't really see a problem here.

I disagree.
Just because one improbable/impossible thing happens does not mean that all the rules of logic and reason are out the window.
Roleplaying is based on "what if..." scenarios, and they use logic and imagination to determine the outcome. The conclusion has to make some sort of sense with the premise for things to work out.

It's the same with any type of story telling.
For example, the premise of "What if a mad bomber rigged a bus with a bomb that would explode if the bus went under 55 mph? What would they do?" may be extremely implausible, but it does NOT excuse the result of "Well, the bus could just fly over any obstacle too diffictult to drive over..."

And the premise of "What if there was a post-apocalyptic world in which giant humanoid insects rules a region and behaved in manner (X)" does not excuse the result of "Only they suddenly instead behave in manner (Y) for no real reason. And suddenly 400,000 people don't need food or water for a period of about a year..."

If it did, then role-playing (and storytelling in general) would be a very different experience.

Player: Okay, I aim my Boom Gun at the CS Grunt and fire.
GM: Roll to Strike.
Player: (Rolls)
GM: Okay, you would normally have hit him, but this time I'll just say that your Glitterboy armor turns into butterflies. The butterflies immediately start trying to drink your character's blood.
Player: WHAT!? Why'd that happen!?
GM: Oh, just because I felt like it. And because I personally feel that that's about as realistic as having giant power armor in the first place...

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, it tends to happen that way. I am a huge proponent of the "If you don't like it, Change it" rule. There are oviously alot of people who think that it couldn't have been done, but then tere are others who can see it as completely possible. I say if its good for your game, keep it. If not, simply change it.

Agreed.
But unfortunately, doing that doesn't change things.
Kevin might pretend in his own mind that the new Star Wars movies never mentioned Midichlorians, and he might even edit those parts out of his copy of the movies.
But that doesn't change the fact that the writer of those films screwed up.

In my campaign, the Duluth Hive was destroyed shortly after the Mechanoids showed up, and the CS isn't going to even think about invading Tolkeen until they sort out what the heck happend to Duluth.
I've changed canon a lot for my gameworld.
But that doesn't mean that nobody ever screwed up when writing Siege on Tolkeen.
Bad writing ignored is still bad writing.

[RainOfSteel]

In a fictional milieu, we have only one thing to go on in making our judgments and coalescing our understanding of it, and that is the established premise laid out by the author.

If the author says A about X, B about Y, and C about Z, and then much later says M about X, N about Y, and O about Z, then we are left to puzzle upon what happened.

For the non-critical reader, none of this matters.

For the critical reader, this represents a violation of the established premise.

The violation of the established premise is the mainstay of most Star Trek episodes, where transporters, phasers, photons, communicators, shields, warp cords, warp drives, warp fields, warp speeds, and anything else you can name change their functions from episode to episode, and sometimes from scene to scene.

There are those who do not care about this aspect of the Star Trek universe, and then there are those that do and find it to be completely laughable. Was anyone even trying? Paramount had an official policy of not paying attention to Star Trek's own canon because they mistakenly believed that canon restrained writer creativity, when in fact canon unbounds creativity by providing the necessary common frame of reference.

If a writer of historical medieval fiction in Ireland describes his monks as eating a meal of potatos (I kid you not, this actually happened) centuries before the potato was brought back from South America, well, then there is a problem.

If a writer of a baseball sports drama wrote that Cy Young pitched from 1920 to 1947, and had him as a character in a 1947 team, every baseball fan would be tossing the book in the garbage and soon word of mouth would doom the book.

Real world facts are incontrovertible.

Fictional milieu facts, in order to support the fictional world, must be equally incontrovertible within the context of the fictional milieu lest the faith the reader places in the milieu, the willing suspension of disbelief, be shattered beyond repair. Those same fictional facts must also possess the characteristic of verisimilitude in order to support the willing suspension of disbelief.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Personally i rather try to figure out why and how jericho was able to pull this off vs coming out and saying it cant happen because of points a, f and v.

honestly my only use for canon is a guideline and that is it, Me? i rather have a epic adventure for my players and trash, a couple canon things vs having a canon adventure where everybody knows how everything is going to react and why.

Canon while in a TV or movie series is nice, nice order history of the things in the past and limits you to the things are canon, so character development is limited to the point of being canon

Bob never been to spain or in love at anytime in his entire life, this goes on for 45 books, then bob dies in the 46 book, now the writer want to do bob the untold years where bobs goes to spain and falls in love, but the untold years version with the older books. Now does this make the untold series not worth reading because bob do something that goes against canon?

Now real life canon changes. the history of the dinosuars are a perfect example of that, how long was it believe all the dinosuars died out , , but yet a species of raptor survived. Impossible? Improbable? but some of them sings to you every morning as they crap on your windshield.

All the ancient species died out canon , funny how some just keep coming back to life. Impossible? Improbable?

[The Galactus Kid]

Mech viper brings up an interesting point. I would rather try to figure out how this COULD have happened than just assume that it couldn't. One thing that I've learned as a GM is that just when you think that you have a surefire way of doing things, the PCs can go and screw everything up, sometimes doing the "impossible".

[grandmaster z0b]

my point still stands...

Actually it really doesn't, you may have dismissed the entire discussion as "12 pages of bickering about techinicalities " but there are actually some intelligent and interesting points raised that yet have been explained. Even if you ignore the discrepancies about Xiticix behaviour then there is still the question of how Holmes' army survived the initial attack. Basically if only a third of all the Xiticix in the swarm attacked the army with their TK rifles then they wouldn't have lasted longer than a few minutes.

[grandmaster z0b]

Personally i rather try to figure out why and how jericho was able to pull this off vs coming out and saying it cant happen because of points a, f and v.

Really? If you want to actually discuss how it could have been done why don't you actually do that? I have tried to instigate this conversation but you always go back to defending the canon instead of opening up the discussion.

ie.

apples and oranges and pears and peanuts, you guys just hate Jericho Holmes , because the best warrior Lazlo has ios some high-mightly self righteous witch named Erin " Karl Prosek dumped my lame self" Tarn

When did Erin Tarn become a warrior, or a witch, or even a leader of Lazlo?

I can see why you're confused on this issue. It's because you are confused in general.

you know take a walk down the elder queen 's chambers mister funny man

What are you talking about? I think you've lost it

I want Holmes' mission to make sense instead of just making up lame excuses for why it's actually possible.

You brought up Hannibal crossing the Alps before as a RL example, but he had everything meticulously planned including adequate supplies. I love military history so I want this to have similar logic so that it become a great feat rather than dues ex machina.

I know you did answer this but if you look it's again just "He could have done it as the book says with some smoke grenades."

[grandmaster z0b]

Canon while in a TV or movie series is nice, nice order history of the things in the past and limits you to the things are canon, so character development is limited to the point of being canon

Bob never been to spain or in love at anytime in his entire life, this goes on for 45 books, then bob dies in the 46 book, now the writer want to do bob the untold years where bobs goes to spain and falls in love, but the untold years version with the older books. Now does this make the untold series not worth reading because bob do something that goes against canon?

Now real life canon changes. the history of the dinosuars are a perfect example of that, how long was it believe all the dinosuars died out , , but yet a species of raptor survived. Impossible? Improbable? but some of them sings to you every morning as they crap on your windshield.

All the ancient species died out canon , funny how some just keep coming back to life. Impossible? Improbable?

Huh?
Because it's the real world, it makes sense all of the time. There is no canon in the real world, things are or they are not. There may be accepted scientific theories and that may change, but history and truth do not.

[tenakafurey]

You're seriously suggesting this?*

The cases are:

1. Smoke Was Substantially Irritating: This would drive the Xiticix mad with rage.
2. Smoke Was Not Irritating: The Xiticix ignored it. (This apparently didn't happen.)
3. Smoke Was Just Right: Similar to the Goldilocks fairy tale.

I assert that case #1 has the best merits. The smoke would have driven the Xiticix mad with rage because it would have disabled a substantial number (perhaps a few hundred or thousand) of them with smoke inhalation issues.

In that smoke is unlikely to substantially harm a Xiticix? Yes. Humans avoid all sorts of things that aren’t really harmful – or even that irritating. Including smoke.

And, as I said, there’s always the possibility the smoke was more for the CS than anyone else. Give them a sense of security, and make it thick enough to discourage random potshots.

The Xiticix would pick and chose amongst a group with fine care and careful attention?*

No. That would not happen, not in a billion, trillion years. Not even unto the end of time. It is totally outside the character and mindset of the Xiticix, with their "incredibly aggressive nature" (WB23:XI p.10).

Their incredibly aggressive nature also lets then leave nomads alone, and to tolerate humanoids and other lifeforms on their territory for months, if not years.

Life can be aggressive without feeling the need to destroy everything they see. WB23 as well as other sources all tell us this. That you emphasise one aspect of the Xiticix – their aggressiveness - over others cannot change what the books tell us.

Except that WB23:XI states this twice.

It is still unreasonable to state that the Xiticix will always swarm against every opponent no matter what the size, effectively having one response to different enemies and scenarios, especially when the books also state they do make use of different tactics in large scale operations.

If they make use of different tactics in such operations…feints, hit and runs, wave attacks, etc…that says they don’t always swarm. If they don’t always swarm, that response to groups larger than 20 cannot be taken as universal.

If it isn’t universal, then it cannot be used as a reason why Holmes trek was impossible.

So….do they always swarm? Or not? If they do, p17 is wrong. If they don’t, then the Xiticix response to Holmes cannot be proven atypical until another 400,000 strong group marches into Xiticix territory and doesn’t attack and the Xiticix respond with a swarm that actually swarms the intruder.

All you can say is that it doesn’t match the tactics the Xiticix are known to use against groups larger than 20. You cannot say that is the one and only step up in tactical response.

It is crystal clear from this what the Xiticix should do in the event of invasion by an army of 400k soldiers strung out in a line and read for defeat in detail, especially when there is little to no risk to themselves, every benefit to gain from doing so, and no benefit to gain from not doing so.

Every benefit to your point of view. At that moment in time, there was no benefit…no short term benefit at least…to the Xiticix destroying Holmes. And there would be a definite cost.

Holmes would go down fighting. That means the death of warriors. Possibly hundreds of thousands of warriors. They’d be happy, but that would still be a blow to the hive. As Holmes wasn’t threatening anything, or the hive, it may be their commanders judged it best not to attack.

After all, at this stage, the War with Lazlo would have been going on for four years or so. While it is awkward to argue without the facts, the possibility that warriors were judged better alive than dying against someone who posed no threat cannot fully be discounted.

Regardless, your are arguing the Xiticix have a long term view, without showing this is true.

Assume a short term view….Holmes presented no threat, no challenge. He was effectively a nomad, a group sources tells us the Xiticix do not see as challenging them or their territorial claims. He was not fighting back, except possibly in self-defence, and he was moving away from the Hive.

What immediate/short-term benefit to the Hive would destroying him bring?

The canon is stated.

That it is. Page 17 shows us they don’t always swarm and make use of other tactics. Which they did. WB20 tells us they let nomadic groups alone, perhaps attacking to drive them off. WB23 tells us they can tolerate other lifeforms on their territory for months, or even years. It also states they tend to kill only if needed. And shows that they are content with driving invaders away. SoT5 shows that the Xiticix do indeed have a different response to large groups.

Against this is the assertion on page 10 of WB23 that the Xiticix will swarm, and your seeming belief that this is what they will do every single time….swarm until the invaders are no more, irrespective of cost, or need.

SoT 5 might as well have been in error (it wasn't, but as I said, it might as well have been).

It might have been in error, yes.

Why is it impossible that, given that we know the Xiticix don’t always swarm, and they do tend to let nomadic groups leave “relatively” peacefully, that this isn’t a typical Xiticix response to Holmes actions?

WB23 disagrees with you, and it is the primary source on the subject, in any event.

One part of WB23 disagrees, and then only if you take it a literal truth and a universal response.

If things are read simplistically, and some portions of the primary source are disregarded, and there is no objection to the flip-flopping of the established premise of the milieu, then no contradictions might be located.

Disregard nothing. P17 refers to Xiticix in large-scale operations. P10 refers to Xiticix response to small groups. And the listed figures are small groups. If you took p10 at face value, then p17 is wrong.

You're seriously suggesting that the Xiticix will ignore the slaying of their fellows by their enemies?

According to P10…they often do. They just take the body and leave. What angers them in that scenario is people interfering in the “duel”.

As it is, you seem to have a different interpretation of being “riled up” than I do. Or rather…the incidents which will make a Xiticix riled up. Simply put, a warrior fighting and even dying is doing his job. It is hard to see many people getting riled up for showing up to work. And, being semi –instinctive creatures, that’s all it is…work. Boring, humdrum work. Killing, dying…it’s their job.

It takes more than that to rile up a Xiticix…the book tells us an attack on the hive itself will do the job.

WB23:XI p.40-41: Death Scent. This makes it crystal clear that the Xiticix consider the deaths of their fellows, even one, to be murder. They will "investigate and retaliate".

“The Death Scent within the Xiticix tunnels or city of towers sends an alarm throughout the colony, causing the fighting Xiticix to rally and investigate and the others to take immediate cover and prepare for attack.”

Irrelevant in the circumstances.

“The Death Scent functions as an alarm to notify other members of the colony that an enemy or other form of "killing" danger is loose in the area.”

Again…irrelevant.

“Depending on the "size" or intensity of the Death Scent, one squadron, or several squadrons to a massive swarm of Warriors will respond to investigate and retaliate.”

The form of said retaliation is not mentioned, however. And, given the existence of dueling, and the effects of winning, not even guaranteed to occur.

And yes, retaliate does mean that they will kill the offenders.

In your opinion.

Also, the attack will generate a raiding swarm that will not care that it has no specific attackers to kill. The raiding swarm will commence just as soon as there are no intruders left in the Hivelands.

Did Holmes attack the Hive? No…then no raiding swarm. I know you are thinking of the quote on page 19….”A raiding swarm is sent out after an attack…”…but that is again a simplistic and highly literal reading.

Read the preceding paragraph…

“When something big happens, like a major assault on the Hive Network…it stirs up the hive like a hornets' nest. The immediate reaction will be obvious as hordes of Warriors stream from the hive... Raiding swarms are also almost guaranteed.

A raiding swarm is sent out after an attack with one of two simple missions: Retaliation or defense of the hive at all costs.”

Raiding swarms are brought into the book as a response to an attack on the hive. The next paragraph offers two missions….retaliation for said attack, or defence from said attack.

True, there is also…”Such frenzied raids rarely occur unless there has been some significant disturbance or threat within the boundaries of Xiticix territory.”

Holmes wasn’t a threat, and disturbance? This is a species where hive populations can reach 500 million. Whether or not he was a disturbance is a matter of opinion.

Now, maybe your reading, in that the two paragraphs are separate events, is true. However:

1: Raiding swarms are not sent out after every attack
2: Raiding swarms were not sent out after this attack

Now, as my reading would appear to agree with both canon sources, and yours appears to disagrees with one, I’d say it’s more likely my reading – that raiding swarms are a reaction to an attack on the hive itself – is more likely.

In fact, WB23:XI p.91 says the opposite, "Whether that retaliation is justified or the aggressor is known does not matter." In other words, the Xiticix will launch raiding swarms in response to attacks even if they have no idea who the attacker was! Since they will attack without knowing who the attacker was (and kill indiscriminately while doing so), I can assure you that they will not make precision choices about who they kill or why they're killing . . . that's the nature of being indiscriminate, after all, they're out there killing just to kill (as is clearly indicated in the text).

So, because a raiding swarm is indiscriminate, it is launched every time a Xiticix is attacked? Unfortunately, your analogy doesn’t hold true. I can point out many similar events in our history. As it is, you aren’t arguing about what a raiding swarm will do, but what causes one to be launched.

Given that one wasn’t, it is obvious that your interpretation of the text is in error.

Demonstrable only by information found outside of the primary source

Primary does not mean only source. As it is, you appear to be saying SoT5 cannot be true partially because the Xiticix aren’t reacting to a group of 400,000 the same way that they would react to a group of 20.

In any event, you are implying that every single Xiticix managed to avoid every single jab and poke.

No….I’m implying that the Xiticix would view it as defence and not an attack.

They only care to destroy attackers.

Which in this case…is them Holmes isn’t attacking or provoking them.

WB23:XI also states (this has also been quoted previously):

[...] it is in their nature to invade, conquer, and destroy. Their survival--their "life"--comes at the exclusion of all others. This is evident in their incredibly aggressive nature. Moreover, they regards all other dominant life forms as their enemies and systematically exterminate them.

And the trouble is with this is that it is the nature of the Xiticix…but that doesn’t mean they follow it every second of every day in every single situation or scenario.

They will invade, they will conquer and they will destroy. They are aggressive, and will systematically destroy all.

But if that was everything, then they’d attack anyone and everything on sight. There’d be no challenges. There’d be no “kill only at need” statements. There’d be no duels. There’d be no “persuading” settlements to leave. There’d be just death, destruction and more death.

That isn’t the case, thus your analysis of the Xiticix, while true, is overly simplistic. The Xiticix invade, conquer and destroy…yes. But what is true on a planetary scale over a time period of centuries or millenia is not necessarily true on smaller levels.

In fact, even in WB23, it demonstrably isn’t.

EJL

[tenakafurey]

my point still stands...

Actually it really doesn't, you may have dismissed the entire discussion as "12 pages of bickering about techinicalities " but there are actually some intelligent and interesting points raised that yet have been explained. Even if you ignore the discrepancies about Xiticix behaviour then there is still the question of how Holmes' army survived the initial attack. Basically if only a third of all the Xiticix in the swarm attacked the army with their TK rifles then they wouldn't have lasted longer than a few minutes.

The simplest solution is that the Xiticix decided not to. Or did so sporadically. Maybe they just decided not to. Or maybe they wanted some fun toying with the poor humans. Or maybe they just decided to indulge what seems to be a natural preference for melee combat.

Maybe they only had a few left - only a Queen can make them and who knows what effect the Lazlo war had on the Xiticix.

Hmmm....let's see...apparently few guns, and what seems a very cautious approach to combat.

Maybe Lazlo had an effect after all..or maybe it didn't.

EJL

[Killer Cyborg]

Canon while in a TV or movie series is nice, nice order history of the things in the past and limits you to the things are canon, so character development is limited to the point of being canon

Bob never been to spain or in love at anytime in his entire life, this goes on for 45 books, then bob dies in the 46 book, now the writer want to do bob the untold years where bobs goes to spain and falls in love, but the untold years version with the older books. Now does this make the untold series not worth reading because bob do something that goes against canon?

No, but it does make the Untold Years version suck.

Now real life canon changes. the history of the dinosuars are a perfect example of that, how long was it believe all the dinosuars died out , , but yet a species of raptor survived. Impossible? Improbable? but some of them sings to you every morning as they crap on your windshield.

All the ancient species died out canon , funny how some just keep coming back to life. Impossible? Improbable?

Canon has never been "All dinosaurs have died out."
Canon has been "All dinosaurs are believed to have died out."
There's a difference.

[Jack Daniels]

There may be accepted scientific theories and that may change, but history and truth do not.

Actually history changes far more often than do accepted scientific theories and truth is highly subjective so it changes all the time. But that is a seperate debate for a different thread.

When I read this part of the SoT metaplot I rolled my eyes at the trip through Xiticix territory as being dumb. Yes, it should have been impossible from all previously published material, but by it author's fiat, it happened. So, they survived, but it was dumb. Then came the part where they hid out in the wilds of northern Minnesota for several months, completly undetected, unsuspected and undejected.
The undetected part I can accept through the same rational as I was able to accept the written fact that the army survived the Xiticix in the first place, authors fiat.
The unsuspected part I can accept fairly easily, after all they should have been dead and nobody expects and army of the dead, right?
The undejected part however I can only accept through a vigirous effort to ignore what I know of human nature and what I know sitting in the middle of a wilderness, out of contact with every form of civilization for months on end, would do to the morale of an army.
Then came the part I absolutly could not accept, that being the supply issue and the fact that the entire army would have been malnourished if not suffering from the effects of starvation within the first two months or at most three if they happened to pack substantial supplies with them in their emergency retreat from a surprise attack.
Someone asked earlier why, since ancient armies survived off the land, couldn't the Coalition Army do the same? The short anwser is because ancient armies rarely exceeded 20,000 men in size, they carefully chose their route to maximize the pillaging and foraging resources available to them, and they kept moving when in hostile or undeveloped territory in order to constantly get access to territory they had not alread denuded of food resources.
According to the story the CS army did none of these things. While they would admittedly be better prepared to cope with their supply situation than an ancient army in similar conditions, due to better food storage and portability, (presumably) better rationing and discipline, and generally healthier soldiers to begin with, the idea that they could violate so extravagantly one of the basic and fundamental laws of how armies can exist, with no explination of how it was done, destroys any ability for me to accept the end result as obtained through the events as they are described in SoT.
Some one else described a story wherein the main character never visited Spain and never took a lover until, after the story ended, the author chose to write the untold stories of how the same main character did actually find love in Spain. They then asked if I would read the untold stories and I can absolutly state that I would read them, that regardless of their quality as novels they would vastly reduce my respect for the author, and that I would comment negativly about the juxtaposition of the different story lines whenever the subject came up in a conversation.

[grandmaster z0b]

There may be accepted scientific theories and that may change, but history and truth do not.

Actually history changes far more often than do accepted scientific theories and truth is highly subjective so it changes all the time. But that is a seperate debate for a different thread.

Well in some ways that's actually what I meant : theories can change but the truth doesn't.
So history itself never changes, but our current theories about history do.

[tenakafurey]

Then came the part I absolutly could not accept, that being the supply issue and the fact that the entire army would have been malnourished if not suffering from the effects of starvation within the first two months or at most three if they happened to pack substantial supplies with them in their emergency retreat from a surprise attack.

On the other hand, they were in the vicinity of the Barony of Markeen, which according to the SoT occupied the abandoned northern border of Tolkeen and which was quite sizeable....apparently over 140,000 people lived and worked in that area.

So...farms,villages, towns...it would seem food, shelter and water would likely be close at hand. Attacked by the CScearlier on, and then abandoned, but still a possible source.

Of course, the Adventure also states that Xiticix stay close to their hive and are content to live and let live...which is accurate only according to soem readings of WB23, but which could also help explain Holmes success.

What it says elsewhere is: "The truth is that the Xiticix do not enjoy violence per se and actually prefer to be left alone. Just like Earth bees and insects, they are very territorial and very defnsive of their domain. Still, they fight only when directly threatened or attacked first - or when they choose to expand their domain."

It downplays the aggressiveness seen in WB23, yes....but I can certainly see the similarities.

According to the story the CS army did none of these things.

Actually, I don't think it even mentions that aspect.

EJL

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Canon while in a TV or movie series is nice, nice order history of the things in the past and limits you to the things are canon, so character development is limited to the point of being canon

Bob never been to spain or in love at anytime in his entire life, this goes on for 45 books, then bob dies in the 46 book, now the writer want to do bob the untold years where bobs goes to spain and falls in love, but the untold years version with the older books. Now does this make the untold series not worth reading because bob do something that goes against canon?

No, but it does make the Untold Years version suck.

Now real life canon changes. the history of the dinosuars are a perfect example of that, how long was it believe all the dinosuars died out , , but yet a species of raptor survived. Impossible? Improbable? but some of them sings to you every morning as they crap on your windshield.

All the ancient species died out canon , funny how some just keep coming back to life. Impossible? Improbable?

Canon has never been "All dinosaurs have died out."
Canon has been "All dinosaurs are believed to have died out."
There's a difference.

no there isnt , the point was they were thought to all have been dead, end of story. which is not the case

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Personally i rather try to figure out why and how jericho was able to pull this off vs coming out and saying it cant happen because of points a, f and v.

Really? If you want to actually discuss how it could have been done why don't you actually do that? I have tried to instigate this conversation but you always go back to defending the canon instead of opening up the discussion.

ie.

apples and oranges and pears and peanuts, you guys just hate Jericho Holmes , because the best warrior Lazlo has ios some high-mightly self righteous witch named Erin " Karl Prosek dumped my lame self" Tarn

When did Erin Tarn become a warrior, or a witch, or even a leader of Lazlo?

I can see why you're confused on this issue. It's because you are confused in general.

you know take a walk down the elder queen 's chambers mister funny man

What are you talking about? I think you've lost it

I want Holmes' mission to make sense instead of just making up lame excuses for why it's actually possible.

You brought up Hannibal crossing the Alps before as a RL example, but he had everything meticulously planned including adequate supplies. I love military history so I want this to have similar logic so that it become a great feat rather than dues ex machina.

I know you did answer this but if you look it's again just "He could have done it as the book says with some smoke grenades."

same here but only reversed

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Personally i rather try to figure out why and how jericho was able to pull this off vs coming out and saying it cant happen because of points a, f and v.

Really? If you want to actually discuss how it could have been done why don't you actually do that? I have tried to instigate this conversation but you always go back to defending the canon instead of opening up the discussion.

ie.

why each time i have meet with x amount of damage from xiticix, i have even said the numbers dont add up , so the the next step is to figure out why

but i guess some out there what to nitpick, so to them i have no problem throwing the fact that it is canon

So instead of trying to figure out why the facts dont make sense, some would rather label it "hand of God" rather try to figure it out, and the canon thing was to show its been done, so lets figure out how it was done vs whining and moaning about how it couldnt be done

[Jack Daniels]

Then came the part I absolutly could not accept, that being the supply issue and the fact that the entire army would have been malnourished if not suffering from the effects of starvation within the first two months or at most three if they happened to pack substantial supplies with them in their emergency retreat from a surprise attack.

On the other hand, they were in the vicinity of the Barony of Markeen, which according to the SoT occupied the abandoned northern border of Tolkeen and which was quite sizeable....apparently over 140,000 people lived and worked in that area.

So...farms,villages, towns...it would seem food, shelter and water would likely be close at hand. Attacked by the CS cearlier on, and then abandoned, but still a possible source.

The infrastructure to support a productive population of 140,000 will not support 300,000 troops for the necessary amount of time to make the story work. Especially if that region has been involved in a war. the available supplies would add a couple weeks, maybe a month at most to their available supplies.

According to the story the CS army did none of these things.

Actually, I don't think it even mentions that aspect.

EJL

And that is exactly the problem I have with the resolution of the SoT. If the author had provided some method by which an army of this size could survive out of supply for so long I would roll my eyes the same as I do with the retreat in general and call it dumb, but I could accept it.

When violating a situation that is easily applicable to real life, an author should mention how it was done. Use handwavium if necessary, but at least say "this is what they did". My issue is not that it was done, but that it was done in such a poor manner that I cannot accept it as legitimate.

[tenakafurey]

The infrastructure to support a productive population of 140,000 will not support 300,000 troops for the necessary amount of time to make the story work. Especially if that region has been involved in a war. the available supplies would add a couple weeks, maybe a month at most to their available supplies.

Every little bit helps.

As it is, we don't know how much was there, or left, or in what condition. People complained about water - there's enough water around for these communities to thrive.

Food? Another aspect. Did the area have any warehouses? Do they need to stock up on food for the winter? What about shelters in case of Xiticix attack? If the area could support 140,000 people, there are also farms, livestock and hunting.

And what if the CS spread out a bit more, sending out foraging and hunting parties into areas even further out.

And so on. It may not explain everything wrt food and water, but if the info is accurate it would at least "lessen" the gap between fiction and reality.

And that is exactly the problem I have with the resolution of the SoT. If the author had provided some method by which an army of this size could survive out of supply for so long I would roll my eyes the same as I do with the retreat in general and call it dumb, but I could accept it.

So...he left it alone. I don't see that as a big liability.

The area to the north of Tolkeen, could apparently support a thriving community. Farms, towns, industry.

That gives us shelter, food and water. A place to hide, rest, repair and recuperate, and draw up plans. A central base of operations.

The existence of the Barony - and possibly other communities - answers a lot of questions in this regard. There's a question as to how much food would be there, yes. But the area also supported hunting and the possibility of teams being sent foraging, scavenging and hunting is next to 100%.

EJL

[cornholioprime]

Here is my two cents.

Was the stunt Improbable? Hell Yes.

Was it Impossible? No

It was written, and it is canon material. Because of this, I truly think Holmes' stunt was possible. There are plenty of occurances IN HISTORY that were thought to be impossible, but infact were just highly unlikely, and they ended up happening. Thats just my opinion. Either way, 12 pages of bickering about techinicalities that may or may not have been mentioned seems kind of silly. hahaha

Well, I'll see you around the boards.

Using a mistake made in Canon is not in and of itself "proof" that the Error in question, isn't one.

If some Comic Book Writer, for example, without proper research writes and sucessfully publishes a Superman Story that shows his powers to be ineffective against the color Yellow, then the Story becomes part of Canon....but it STILL means that the Writer made an error.

[RainOfSteel]

Personally i rather try to figure out why and how jericho was able to pull this off vs coming out and saying it cant happen because of points a, f and v.

The topic is about whether the Holmes' Manuever (as per SoT 5) was possible or not, all the elements, not just some.

The body of available evidence in WB23:XI is contradictory with SoT 5's statements on what happened in the Xiticix Hivelands. WB23:XI' s information clearly indicates that the Xiticix should have wiped out Holmes' army to the last. They were positioned to conduct a brilliant defeat in detail, and losing a few thousand warrior-type bugs to get rid of the entire CS army would not have made the inherently destructive and incredibly aggressive Xiticix sad in the least.

The only way to viably support SoT 5's description that I have seen so far is to invent some totally different story about what happened than SoT 5 itself says did happen. I have provided some alternate possibilities, one was serious, and the other was facetious.

The bottom line, regardless of anything related to the Xiticix, their behavior, or what happened in the Hiveland, is that the 300k soldiers who made it out of the Hivelands cannot survive alone in the wilderness. A few posters (including myself) have provided example information that assures that this is so, but as far as I can tell, that information has largely been ignored in favor of the idea that "rainwater and hunting" will be sufficient (neither would be sufficient), or that a timewarp occurred.

Magic did not feed them (nor did faeries, the Culligan Man, or other Deus ex Machina).

The wilderness did not feed them.

Their waste would have filled a VLCC and they could not have stayed in the same place for long.

In fact, they survived on nothing in authorial limbo until they were needed for their job to swoop down on Tolkeen from behind when they were just conveniently ignoring an entire giant region of their terrirtory (not just the land north of the city, Holmes had to move through a large region of Tolkeen's territory).

Ok, if one wishes to reach deep into their imagination and pull out some crazy idea that would in fact work, but makes no sense at all and provides no satisfaction as a story element, then that can be done. But even so, it won't be the canon story and it won't help support the idea that "Holmes' Stunt Was Possible", in fact, the alternate stories will only weaken that idea.

I'm all in favor of something that makes sense from the get-go.

If I go to the grocery store and buy groceries and take them home and load up the fridge, I expect there to be food inside when I check it the next day.

If an army of 400k travels into the Xiticix Hivelands and doesn't shoot back, I expect that it will be destroyed . . . especially when the primary source of information on the Xiticix states that this is what will happen.

[RainOfSteel]

Mech viper brings up an interesting point. I would rather try to figure out how this COULD have happened than just assume that it couldn't.

What about the ideas that have been proposed so far?

[RainOfSteel]

In that smoke is unlikely to substantially harm a Xiticix? Yes. Humans avoid all sorts of things that aren’t really harmful – or even that irritating. Including smoke.

But human warriors do no such thing.

Human warriors dash into rooms on fire with flames at 2000 degrees in order to rescue their wounded comrades, suffering terrible burns in the process.

And they will dive/rush through mere smoke to get at an enemy they regard as something that must be exterminated (recent history in many countries proves that some groups of humanity do believe that other groups should be exterminated, and they act upon and fulfill their beliefs in reality).

And in case I need to state it again, you are comparing the Xiticix to humanity in an attempt to create a parallel situation of, "If humans are like X, then the Xiticix must also be like X.

Either they're aliens, or they're humans in bug suits.

Their incredibly aggressive nature also lets then leave nomads alone, and to tolerate humanoids and other lifeforms on their territory for months, if not years.

Only so long as those nomads and others don't offend the Xiticix' sensibilities.

The moment this happens, those groups become dead.

It is still unreasonable to state that the Xiticix will always swarm against every opponent no matter what the size,

You're partially correct. It would be unreasonable to expect them to attack against and opponent no matter what the size.

But when the opponent is in a terrible formation, strung out for many miles (the only available estimate so far has been mine, at 95 miles), and subject to an extremely easy defeat in detail, it would be unreasonable not to expect the Xiticix to exterminate a group that they have marked for extermination. For practical purposes, it would be "convenient" for the Xiticix. Letting the CS army go would be throwing away a huge opportunity to fulfill the Xiticix' racial imperatives.

effectively having one response to different enemies and scenarios, especially when the books also state they do make use of different tactics in large scale operations.

You know, it's a broken record now.

Yes, the Xiticix may use whatever tactics they wish . . . to fulfill their overall goal of destroying an enemy in the cases where destroying an enemy is indicated.

You have yet to provide any concrete reason, from the point of view of the Xiticix (and their xenophobic, destructive, and incredibly aggressive natures), of why they should let the CS army go without carving them to pieces.

I have provided many such reasons for why the Xiticix should do so.

So….do they always swarm?

We've covered this.

Every benefit to your point of view.

It isn't my point of view. It's the point of view of the Xiticix as stated by WB23:XI.

At that moment in time, there was no benefit…no short term benefit at least…to the Xiticix destroying Holmes. And there would be a definite cost.

I have stated, many times, what the benefits were.

Yes, there would be a cost.* But it would be minor, supremely minor in an insect-like race that does not hesitate to sacrifice its warriors to achieve its goals.

* A few thousand dead Xiticix in exchange for 200-300k dead humans (some would be vaporized in the battle) lining the walls of the Duluth hive and producing the all-important sludge. Have no doubt that one ton of sludge is more valuable to the hive than all the other races on Rifts Earth put together (oops, the Xiticix place no value whatsoever on all of that, so even a resouce value of one atom would exceed the value of all the other sentient life on Rifts Earth so far as the Xiticix are concerned).

So, this is an abstract statement that the Xiticix would have had a cost (in concrete terms and very minor cost) in destroying the CS army.

It is also an abstract claim, not backed up by anything, that there would be no benefit to the Xiticix for destroying the CS army, even though I have provided laundry list of concrete examples of the benefits.

Holmes would go down fighting. That means the death of warriors. Possibly hundreds of thousands of warriors.

I take it you don't know what defeat in detail means, do you?

The Xiticix would lose very little, and any resistance the strung-out CS army could put up would be completely ineffective.

I have already gone over this in extensive detail.

Apparently I need to cite myself once more:

I don't describe 40 Xiticix attacking 20 opponents as a swarm. I describe 1,000,000 Xiticix attacking 400,000 opponents as a swarm, especially if they fall upon 1% of the column all at once (not that you could fit a million Xiticix on top of 1% of the column) and roll it up. In the military, that's called defeat in detail. It's an attacker's dream, and a defender's nightmare.

If 180-250K Xiticix were attacking in earnest, the column would have been devasted in a defeat in detail attack from one end of the column to another. There would have been nothing left.

• Defeat in Detail: If a portion of the Xiticix swarm lands on one end of the CS army column, and destroys it with overwhelming mass, it can then roll onwards over the whole column, destroying it easily. This has many benefits from the point of view of the Xiticix. Letting Holmes' army go has no benefits from the point of view of our little xenophobic bugs. What? Is it a goodwill gesture? Yeah, right.

WB23:XI also states (this has also been quoted previously):

[...] it is in their nature to invade, conquer, and destroy. Their survival--their "life"--comes at the exclusion of all others. This is evident in their incredibly aggressive nature. Moreover, they regards all other dominant life forms as their enemies and systematically exterminate the.

It is crystal clear from this what the Xiticix should do in the event of invasion by an army of 400k soldiers strung out in a line and read for defeat in detail, especially when there is little to no risk to themselves, every benefit to gain from doing so, and no benefit to gain from not doing so.

Benefits From Destroying the CS Army: The destruction of the humans. The removal of the human MD/MDC equipped army that is a threat to the Xiticix by its mere existence. Making future expansion easier by getting rid of enemies they'd only have to kill later anyway. Getting rid of an enemy when they were vulnerable and when it would be of a extremely easy to do so through a defeat in detail of the enemy.

Benefits From Not Destroying the CS Army: None.

So, as is clearly shown, this has been covered.

Extensively.

A defeat in detail of the CS army by the Xiticix means the CS army dies and the Xiticix take very little damage (in case that wasn't clear from the above statements).

Defeat in Detail: If a portion of the Xiticix swarm lands on one end of the CS army column, and destroys it with overwhelming mass, it can then roll onwards over the whole column, destroying it easily. This has many benefits from the point of view of the Xiticix. Letting Holmes' army go has no benefits from the point of view of our little xenophobic bugs. What? Is it a goodwill gesture? Yeah, right.

What benefit is it to destroy something that is no threat?

Even at this point, three days ago, I had already explained the benefits to the Xiticix for destroy the CS army, and the lack of benefits from not destroying them. Concrete examples and not just statements of "it would be so".

They’d be happy, but that would still be a blow to the hive.

A blow so small that the ocean of sludge that they would get back from the dead would more than make up for it.

An excellent trade from the Xiticix point of view.

Something to be vigorously pursued.

As Holmes wasn’t threatening anything, or the hive, it may be their commanders judged it best not to attack.

If I were to provide a quoted/cited list of the times that I have already refuted the idea that Holmes' was not a threat to the Xiticix, it would be a much longer one than the quoted/cited list above about defeat in detail.

After all, at this stage, the War with Lazlo would have been going on for four years or so. While it is awkward to argue without the facts, the possibility that warriors were judged better alive than dying against someone who posed no threat cannot fully be discounted.

I cannot base my judgments on things that are only inferred as going to happen. (Recent statements by KS at the big shindig notwithstanding.)

A war by Lazlo vs. the Xiticix only beggars the question of why the Xiticix didn't wipe out Lazlo? They had the forces to do it with. The majority board opinion is that Lazlo would lose to the CS in an outright war, and so they would most certainly lose to the Xiticix. And unlike the CS army, the Xiticix really could have had a million troops, or two million. This whole line of questions and reasoning is nothing but an entirely new can of worms.

Regardless, your are arguing the Xiticix have a long term view, without showing this is true.

I don't know why you assume that exclusively.

Assume a short term view….

Ok.

Holmes presented no threat, no challenge.

That's already been refuted. Totally.

He was effectively a nomad,

An army of 400k MD/MDC soldiers is the equivalent of a nomad?

Really?

Personally I wouldn't make that comparison.

a group sources tells us the Xiticix do not see as challenging them or their territorial claims.

No, a group of sources say that certain activities aren't challenging to the Xiticix' xenophobic sensibilities. It then says that certain activities will be regarded as an attack and makes no reference to whether any type of challenge is necessary, and that the perpetrators will be destroyed and even goes so far as to say that someone will pay the price even if the original attackers are not known.

The activities of Holmes' army most definitely count as an attack. The response by the Xiticix to an attack is crystal clear. Just because no Xiticix were personally or collectively challenged is utterly, totally, and completely irrelevant.

He was not fighting back, except possibly in self-defence, and he was moving away from the Hive.

What immediate/short-term benefit to the Hive would destroying him bring?

Sludge.

Sludge is the key to the Hive's accelerated growth.

If, as has been proposed by others in this topic, that the extant Hives on Earth are not only non-cooperative, but are actually in competition (and two are stated as being about to go to war), then Sludge is the key to winning that competition.

WB20 tells us

I asked you to both cite and quote that, but apparently it was too much trouble.

they let nomadic groups alone

An army of 400k MD/MDC equipped soldiers is not a "nomadic group" by any stretch of the imagination, even the stretch of a Xiticix' imagination.

WB23 tells us they can tolerate other lifeforms on their territory for months, or even years.

As long as those individuals (or very small groups) do not do certain things. All of which were done by Holmes' army.

So, that reference does not apply in the actual case.

It also states they tend to kill only if needed.

And it states exactly when that need is. That need is triggered by the presence of Holmes' army and the actions that it takes.


---------------------------


Hmm, I was going to continue on with this umpteenth refutation, but it's clear that none of it is actually been read or responded to.

<sigh />

[RainOfSteel]

giant insect men are just as plausible as the stunt happening, so I don't really see a problem here.

I disagree.
Just because one improbable/impossible thing happens does not mean that all the rules of logic and reason are out the window.

Yes, most definitely.

Roleplaying is based on "what if..." scenarios, and they use logic and imagination to determine the outcome. The conclusion has to make some sort of sense with the premise for things to work out.

Double yes.

Player: Okay, I aim my Boom Gun at the CS Grunt and fire.
GM: Roll to Strike.
Player: (Rolls)
GM: Okay, you would normally have hit him, but this time I'll just say that your Glitterboy armor turns into butterflies. The butterflies immediately start trying to drink your character's blood.
Player: WHAT!? Why'd that happen!?
GM: Oh, just because I felt like it. And because I personally feel that that's about as realistic as having giant power armor in the first place...

My sides are hurting and there are almost tears coming down!

[RainOfSteel]

Yes, it should have been impossible from all previously published material, but by it author's fiat, it happened. So, they survived, but it was dumb.

That is a highly relevant subject that is strongly linked the subject of the topic itself.

Then came the part I absolutly could not accept, that being the supply issue and the fact that the entire army would have been malnourished if not suffering from the effects of starvation within the first two months or at most three if they happened to pack substantial supplies with them in their emergency retreat from a surprise attack.

It has become obvious to me that there are those who simply don't care.

Someone asked earlier why, since ancient armies survived off the land, couldn't the Coalition Army do the same? The short anwser is because ancient armies rarely exceeded 20,000 men in size, they carefully chose their route to maximize the pillaging and foraging resources available to them, and they kept moving when in hostile or undeveloped territory in order to constantly get access to territory they had not alread denuded of food resources.

Having been studying this subject for many, many years as a the result of my gaming pursuits, it often comes as a surprise to me just how much some other gamers really don't know about the logistics requirements or operational capabilities of either ancient or modern armies.

[...] the idea that they could violate so extravagantly one of the basic and fundamental laws of how armies can exist [...] destroys any ability for me to accept the end result as obtained through the events as they are described in SoT.

And that is about the size of it.

[...] and that I would comment negativly about the juxtaposition of the different story lines whenever the subject came up in a conversation.

Bravo!

[tenakafurey]

So the Tolkeen army didn't need food?

Of course they did. They also have mages who can create the stuff.

The point is that the area north of Tolkeen, and close to the Duluth hive was inhabited, and abandoned. Yes, the CS attacked there, but that doesn't mean nothing was left.

Did they provide all logistics via magic?

Probably only some.

I don't remember the details (and I'm sans books at work) but would an abandoned area of Tolkeen really have much left?

As far as I can see, it would depend on a large variety of factors. As it is, the area was also known for hunting and by having a base, Holmes could send hunting parties days or even weeks away to gather food.

Either the refugees took it, which is easy when using magic to transport yourself, or the military could have taken it for their soliders. Why waste the PPE when food is just laying around?

Why take the time to empty warehouses if you're abandoning the area? Why take food that will last you weeks when you need years? The CS attacked and Tolkeen abandoned. That doesn't indicate a strong desire to hold the area, nor need it mean an orderly retreat.

As I said, it depends on a number of factors, none of which can be quantified. Did they burn everything to deny it to the CS? Did they have time to strip the countryside and warehouses? Were they running or evacuating? And so on.

Even then, the barony did support nearly 150,000 people. That means water and shelter for at least that many. The only question is how much food they found or were able to procure. It may have been little or none...it may have been a lot. As it is, Holmes even had troopers out working the fields.

Or they may not have emerged into the Barony at all, but some other area.

My problem with it is they, as in the CS army did enough to illicit a swarm response of 180,000-250,000 of just airborne Xiticix.

That would be expected.

To think they would launch a response force of that size and not initiate a serious attack against the invading aggresor doesn't jive with WB23.

If it was limited to 250,000 then it was a small force. Taking P10 at face value, we could expect at least 1,000,000 Xiticix warriors to attack Holmes. If it was one quarter that size, the Xiticix weren't too worried.

I'm also curious to the damage output of just a small force of bugs over only a few minutes of combat, which I and others have mentioned. To the detractors, it doesn't matter if 10,000 attacked or 100,000 attacked, they would deal out grevious damage and it wouldn't stop because the defenders were not reducing the attacking force! 10,000 attacking bugs of various types could have done that 25% loss to the CS in the first 24 hours with only sporadic attacks! Why would the Xiticix, which it states will attack forces of 20+ and kill them all, stop attacking a force that doesn't return fire? What's the loss to them to keep killing the invaders? Time? They have plenty. Manpower? They aren't losing anything, if only a few. Resources? Maybe a few broken weapons and some PPE, which is easily replaced. I don't see the drawback here.

IMO, the statement that the Xiticix will attack forces of 20+ and kill them all is given far too much weight.

First, it is unreasonable, IMO, to expect such a uniform response for all numbers of intruders

Second, the only difference given in the response between groups of 8-19 and groups of 20+ is the size of the response group. However, if we were to apply the same universality here that is given to the group size, p17, which states that the Xiticix do make use of other tactics, would be wrong.

Third, the idea that the Xiticix will "kill them all" is contradicted by numerous canon sources.....

WB23 shows examples where leaving the Hivelands is often enough to stop attacks by warriors.

WB23 shows that the Xiticix often live for months with humanoids on their territory.

WB23 states that the Xiticix are often content to have a competing force move away.

WB20, p74 states "Somehow, the Xiticix do not see nomads as encroaching on their domain, and as long as they steer clear of major Hive communities, the Xiticix tend to ignore them (or are satisfied with chasing them away)."

Adventure Book states that the Xiticix generally attack in response to a threat or attack or when expanding their territory.

WB23 states that the Xiticix are methodical and kill only wheen needed.

So, while aggressive, the Xiticix are not necessarily going to destroy everything.

So, why would the Xiticix stop? What do they gain by destroying Holmes? Nothing. They destroy something that isn't a threat. Sure, he may come back next year...but the Xiticix have a partially instinctive response and may not think "long-term". At the time, they would gain nothing from the attack.

As for the level of attack...it's been stated the Xiticix do not see nomads as "enemies" or a threat. What else was Holmes force but nomadic?

You can say the Xiticix will "live and let live" but when they are up in arms, they are there to fight.

As I said before, I see a different emphasis on the Xiticix.

They are there to fight, yes...but their emphasis seems to be on destroying the threat itself. If that is accomplished by forcing an enemy away, then that is their response. They did not need to destroy Holmes to remove the threat he posed; they just needed to drive him away.

EJL

[RainOfSteel]

Well in some ways that's actually what I meant : theories can change but the truth doesn't.

It is more like hypotheses change all the time.

By the time something reaches the acceptance level of theory, it almost never changes in substantial form, or at least it hasn't in a great many years. While theory never truly reaches 100% acceptance, 99.99% can be just as good.

And before anyone drags out the old Ether example, the Ether never was a theory. No one had ever measured it or proven it existed. It was never anything more than a Hypothesis. On the first (or I believe it was the first) experiment conducted to really prove its existence, its existence was disproven.

[RainOfSteel]

same here but only reversed

Five words does not a discussion make.

[RainOfSteel]

So instead of trying to figure out why the facts dont make sense, some would rather label it "hand of God" rather try to figure it out, and the canon thing was to show its been done, so lets figure out how it was done vs whining and moaning about how it couldnt be done

Because the idea that it could happen at all is unsupportable?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

same here but only reversed

Five words does not a discussion make.

wow its Yoda, Not

[Mech-Viper Prime]

So instead of trying to figure out why the facts dont make sense, some would rather label it "hand of God" rather try to figure it out, and the canon thing was to show its been done, so lets figure out how it was done vs whining and moaning about how it couldnt be done

Because the idea that it could happen at all is unsupportable?

well that's your take on it and a couple others but each to their own, right.

[tenakafurey]

But human warriors do no such thing.

Of course they do. They don’t need to, but there usually has to be a reason for them to do so.

Human warriors dash into rooms on fire with flames at 2000 degrees in order to rescue their wounded comrades, suffering terrible burns in the process.

Do they dash into the rooms just because it’s there? If there’s no reason to go there, would they? Similarly, would the Xiticix fight for no reason?

Either they're aliens, or they're humans in bug suits.

They’re aliens…but then their response makes perfect sense.

Only so long as those nomads and others don't offend the Xiticix' sensibilities.

The moment this happens, those groups become dead.

So, it’s a good thing Holmes didn’t do so then, isn’t it?

But when the opponent is in a terrible formation, strung out for many miles (the only available estimate so far has been mine, at 95 miles), and subject to an extremely easy defeat in detail, it would be unreasonable not to expect the Xiticix to exterminate a group that they have marked for extermination.

Where does it say the Xiticix have marked the Coalition for extermination?

As for how long the column would be….how many men abreast? What formation did he use? How many men did he pack into those vehicles? What APCs were they? The Mk V can hold 60, so maybe it could 80 in cramped conditions, with maybe another 20-30 on top of the vehicle, plus the 8 crew….done that way, 3500 of them would stretch 47 km….in a column. About 30 miles. Or 24km if two abreast, or 12 if four abreast or 6 if 8 abreast or 3 if 16 and so on.

How long was the column? We can’t say. We can’t even guess. All we are told is the group was clustered shoulder to shoulder.

Either way, there’s going to be a lot of firepower packed into a very small area. One end of the column may not be able to cover the other, but they won’t go down easy.

For practical purposes, it would be "convenient" for the Xiticix. Letting the CS army go would be throwing away a huge opportunity to fulfill the Xiticix' racial imperatives.

A long term goal for a species that seems to take a very short-term view. As it is, the Xiticix racial imperatives do not seem to be a conscious goal that they work towards.

You have yet to provide any concrete reason, from the point of view of the Xiticix (and their xenophobic, destructive, and incredibly aggressive natures), of why they should let the CS army go without carving them to pieces.

Because they aren’t vindictive and only attack as needed. If there is no need to attack…they don’t. Holmes wasn’t a threat. This response is stated in several books. Xiticix have been shown to live alongside humans, to tolerate their presence, to let humans and intruders leave before.

Emphasising one aspect of the Xiticix and asserting that is a universal response when it has been shown not be is simply ignoring the other aspects of the Xiticix shown in the books.

Your complaint is that the Xiticix should have destroyed Holmes because sometime in the future he may be a threat, the CS is targeted for extermination by the Xiticix and because the Xiticix destroy and kill everybody and everything.

In response, I can only say that the Xiticix do not appear to take the long term view, that they don’t seem to have targeted the CS for extermination and that the Xiticix do not destroy everything or everybody.

I have stated, many times, what the benefits were.

Long term benefits for a race that seems short-term orientated. What were the short-term, immediate benefits? They’d destroy something of no threat and potentially lose hundreds of thousands of warriors….no gain.

I take it you don't know what defeat in detail means, do you?

Yes. I don’t see how it applies here. Holmes forces were as concentrated as he could make them. Any attack by the Xiticix would be met with large amounts of fire once he began shooting. Assuming Holmes was strung out when SoT5 tells us otherwise…..

As it is, a CS trooper is tougher than a Xiticix warrior, and they would carry better weaponry. And that’s not counting the damage their vehicles and PA could do.

So, yes…it looks like Holmes troops could do plenty of damage. Maybe not every CS trooper could defend against every attack…but the possibility of defeat in detail is not the case here. Holmes would be surrounded, attacked from all sides, but he certainly wouldn’t be “defeated in detail” simply because his forces are concentrated. Troops elsewhere would just need to fire. Unlike the Xiticix, CS troopers tend to carry ranged weaponry. Many of the weapons carried by Holmes power armour and SAMAS’ are fully capable of downing a Xiticix with each firing, and with speed and altitude advantages, they would often be able to dictate combat ranges.

So…the Xiticix would lose a good many warriors – probably hundreds of thousands - in return for removing a potential threat that was leaving of its own accord.

I fail to see the benefit.

So, as is clearly shown, this has been covered.

And yet, the benefits you’ve outlined either depend on your point of view…or assume the Xiticix take a long term view. Maybe they will need to killt hem later…butt hey don’t need to killt hem now to fulfil their aims. Maybe the army is a threat by it’s mere existence, but it’s actions and direction of travels how otherwise. And the idea of defeating in detail an enemy that’s concentrated and able to savage any attack against them doesn’t seem correct to me.

A blow so small that the ocean of sludge that they would get back from the dead would more than make up for it.

Sludge requires the living. Replacing those warriors would take two years, or more.

If I were to provide a quoted/cited list of the times that I have already refuted the idea that Holmes' was not a threat to the Xiticix, it would be a much longer one than the quoted/cited list above about defeat in detail.

Thing is…you haven’t proven that the Xiticix viewed him as a threat.

Sure, he was intruding. But we know the Xiticix are content to drive away nomads instead of annihilating them (WB20). And Holmes was nomadic.

He was an army…but he conducted no offensive operations, he wasn’t attacking the Hive, and he wasn’t even headed in that direction. He was “passing through”.

Holmes may have been a threat to the hive…but you haven’t shown the Xiticix should have viewed him as one. And in fact, he wasn’t. His target was Tolkeen….and his attack there did benefit the Xiticix.

All you’ve done is show that as his army was a group of more than 20, the Xiticix should have attacked…they did. And that, despite the fact that this book and others show that the Xiticix are known to let intruders, nomads and others live and leave, you feel they should have kept on attacking until Holmes was destroyed.

They didn’t…but that event isn’t unprecedented in the Xiticix canon. Far from it. Nomads, settlers, competing groups, loners, small groups…all have been let go by the Xiticix. Holmes main difference was size…but by Xiticix homeworld standards, his was a very small group. It may be hard for the Xiticix to view 400,000 as a threat when their conditioned to fight armies of millions.

A war by Lazlo vs. the Xiticix only beggars the question of why the Xiticix didn't wipe out Lazlo?

Maybe they were losing? Successful in dragging it out far longer than Lazlo planned…but still losing. We know Lazlo wins the Heroes War. We don't know how long it took. Or maybe it's already won...maybe they are down to their last few hundred thousand. Maybe that's why the apparently small attack force...tens of thousands of Xiticix were reported. And maybe it's why they didn't use TK weaponry....without the queen, most of them were gone.

They had the forces to do it with.

Not necessarily. We don’t know how the war has been going. See above.

The majority board opinion is that Lazlo would lose to the CS in an outright war

Lazlo has been said to be stronger than Tolkeen. Tolkeen held the CS off for four years. Tolkeen achieved some notable victories. Thus…Lazlo would be defeated? Maybe…I don’t see it as a foregone conclusion.

That's already been refuted. Totally.

He was headed away from the hive, and he presented no threat or challenge. So…what immediate threat did he pose to the hive or the Xiticix?

An army of 400k MD/MDC soldiers is the equivalent of a nomad?

His was effectively a tribe, it was moving and it wasn’t staying in one place.

Nomadic by definition.

Was he a “professional nomad”? No. But his actions were nomadic in nature.

No, a group of sources say that certain activities aren't challenging to the Xiticix' xenophobic sensibilities. It then says that certain activities will be regarded as an attack and makes no reference to whether any type of challenge is necessary, and that the perpetrators will be destroyed and even goes so far as to say that someone will pay the price even if the original attackers are not known.

And it also says that the Xiticix are often content with driving competing forces or nomads away. WB20…”Only tribes, clans and groups of people constantly on the move are spared. Somehow, the Xiticix do not see nomads as encroaching on their domain, and as long as they steer clear of major Hive communities, the Xiticix tend to ignore them (or are satisfied with chasing them away).”

In short, even the “attack groups larger than 20” condition is conditional...witness the reference to tribes and clans. WB23 may be the main source of info...it's not the only one.

Sludge.

Sludge is the key to the Hive's accelerated growth.

If, as has been proposed by others in this topic, that the extant Hives on Earth are not only non-cooperative, but are actually in competition (and two are stated as being about to go to war), then Sludge is the key to winning that competition.

Sludge requires living creatures. Destroying Holmes would cost the Hive possibly hundreds of thousands of warriors…I totally disagree that a compact formation of battle hardened veterans led by a “tactical genius” well experienced and versed in Xiticix tactics could be defeated in detail…and gain them nothing except a pile of salvage.

If the hives are in competition, as is surmised, then losing so many warriors for so little gain is a definite reason not to attack. I’m not convinced of that, but Holmes seemed to think it a possibility.

An army of 400k MD/MDC equipped soldiers is not a "nomadic group" by any stretch of the imagination, even the stretch of a Xiticix' imagination.

How do you tell the difference? How do they? As it is, read the quote from WB20 again…”…”Only tribes, clans and groups of people constantly on the move are spared”. Holmes force was constantly on the move.

As long as those individuals (or very small groups) do not do certain things. All of which were done by Holmes' army.

The only “rule” Holmes broke was that he had more than 20 people in the group. And given their canon response to nomads, tribes, etc, even that seems conditional.

And it states exactly when that need is. That need is triggered by the presence of Holmes' army and the actions that it takes.

It’s actions are to move slowly. Standing still is a no-no, moving fast is a no-no. Other than that…no attacks, no threatening moves, and any response is to Xiticix initiated attacks.

So, a passive, moving , tightly packed column is moving through Xiticix territory. It’s a group larger than 20, yes…but to be honest, that condition cannot be a universal one. It’s contradicted too many times in too many places.

Hmm, I was going to continue on with this umpteenth refutation, but it's clear that none of it is actually been read or responded to.

Yes. I still disagree with you.

EJL

[cornholioprime]

Wow.

The "Holmes Survived" Crowd can't even sufficiently explain the Xiticix's contradictory actions versus Holms and his Troops, and yet they're trying to explain the logistics of feeding providing water to, and eliminating Waste for 310,000 Troops.

I assure you, RainofSteel, and others, are absolutely right when they says that in the realm of Support for Field Armies, some of you simply don't know what you're talking about. Oh, and if you're wondering, I served in 1st FSSG for part of my Term of Service (Marine Corps).
Support Groups, based on the Branch of Service and/or Organic Mission, are groups of hundreds to thousands of Troops whose only mission in life to provide what we used to refer to as "Beans, Band-Aids, and Bullets" to the Troops in the field.

And if WE needed all those men just to keep a Force of "only" a few thousand well-equipped and fed, (The ENTIRE Marine Corps has only about 200,000 Men and each Support Group takes care of much lower numbers than that), then how, exactly, are you finding and getting all that Food out to your Troops, and all that Waste out of the area WITHOUT Support?? Explain that for me if you can.

Whatever happened to not biting off more than you can chew???

[grandmaster z0b]

The majority of the argument seems to be justifying either the Xiticix behaviour which seems contradictory, or arguing that the army could even survive that long.

I have yet to understand how both are possible as well as the fact that neither the CS nor Tolkeen noticed what happened to them and never sent out scouts (especially Tolkeen who could have used someone in Astral form to check the entire area in under 5 seconds).

Yes you can justify one or two inconsistancies but not the entire thing.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Wow.

The "Holmes Survived" Crowd can't even sufficiently explain the Xiticix's contradictory actions versus Holms and his Troops, and yet they're trying to explain the logistics of feeding providing water to, and eliminating Waste for 310,000 Troops.

I assure you, RainofSteel, and others, are absolutely right when they says that in the realm of Support for Field Armies, some of you simply don't know what you're talking about. Oh, and if you're wondering, I served in 1st FSSG for part of my Term of Service (Marine Corps).
Support Groups, based on the Branch of Service and/or Organic Mission, are groups of hundreds to thousands of Troops whose only mission in life to provide what we used to refer to as "Beans, Band-Aids, and Bullets" to the Troops in the field.

And if WE needed all those men just to keep a Force of "only" a few thousand well-equipped and fed, (The ENTIRE Marine Corps has only about 200,000 Men and each Support Group takes care of much lower numbers than that), then how, exactly, are you finding and getting all that Food out to your Troops, and all that Waste out of the area WITHOUT Support?? Explain that for me if you can.

Whatever happened to not biting off more than you can chew???

One big hole, but come lord of REMFs, you say it's impossible, but since you know the fine details of being a non-combat support type enlighten us

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yup the coalition wouldnt have no defense against that
I yet to see any proof that holmes air troops were wiped out , just hear say and that is it.

i have asked questions that seems to be dodged

If they survived 8 months cut off from the rest of the CS, then they must of had supplies to do it or found some.

Not like holmes is going to keep his 300,000 troops in one large group unless he has a place to hide them otherwise the they would be broken down to brigade then battlion then company then maybe platoon sizes

Tolkeen Scouts might have thought its was just lone units, or CS scouts checking for anything on holmes or just simply got killed by snipers.

As for support, depending on the type of unit , you normally have 2-3 support personal per company, as well as an headquarters company which normally most of the support for that battlion.

so depending on what they had in way of vechiles ,supplies , the weather , what shape the country side was in , if wild game was still in the area and in what numbers, how much shelter was around , their any number of things that could both help and hurt Holmes, but then again I'm a "glass is half full" type vs the half empty type.

[RainOfSteel]

same here but only reversed

Five words does not a discussion make.

wow its Yoda, Not

And that's still not a discussion. (And my statement was just a paraphrase of an old quote, it had nothing to do with a Star Wars sock puppet.)

Because the idea that it could happen at all is unsupportable?

well that's your take on it and a couple others but each to their own, right.

I have yet to see anything concrete to suggest that the passage through Xiticix territory, the out of supply survival of 300k troops, or that they went completely unnoticed for 6-12 months (including on approach directly through Tolkeen's own controlled territory), was possible that doesn't massively and titanically contradict simple logic or known milieu facts.

As soon as I see something concrete that doesn't contradict these things, I'll seriously consider it. (In the end, I may settle for some idea that doesn't contradict these things on so enormous a scale.)

In case you didn't notice, I did make two proposals earlier. (The first only covered the Xiticix passage, and then only to say that Holmes' faked the whole thing and never really went into the Duluth hive. The second was tongue-in-cheek Deus ex Machina . . . but how would that be different from the canon SoT 5 description in the first place?)

[RainOfSteel]

Yes. I still disagree with you.

And I still believe you weren't reading what I was writing.

[RainOfSteel]

One big hole, but come lord of REMFs, you say it's impossible, but since you know the fine details of being a non-combat support type enlighten us

Enlightening comments on the subject have been made throughout this topic.

Your comment suggests to me that you weren't reading them.

It is the responsibility of those participating in the topic to participate, and that includes keeping up on the information presented and not just saying "What says that?" (especially when its been said before), "Ha ha!", or ":lol::lol::lol:".

Naturally, there is no way to make this happen, but it is discouraging to encounter.

It is not the responsibility of other participants to recite and requote material that has been posted earlier in the topic and that has gone unrefuted. Nor is it their responsibility to re-refute material that has already been refuted. If participant A says X, and X is refuted by participants B, C, D, and F, participant A may continuing saying X as much as they wish, but it would be to no end or point unless they could successfully counter-refute the original refutations (successful being the keyword).

If a participant should continue to say X (already refuted) for long enough and despite having the original and successive refutations pointed out several times, that participant might well find themelves ignored. Others that came along later to read through the topic would see what had happened clearly enough.

[tenakafurey]

The "Holmes Survived" Crowd can't even sufficiently explain the Xiticix's contradictory actions versus Holms and his Troops, and yet they're trying to explain the logistics of feeding providing water to, and eliminating Waste for 310,000 Troops.

Because there doesn't seem to be any contradictions in the Xiticix response.

The Xiticix should have attacked, and they did (p10). They used a fairly large force, and enagegd in hit and run attacks (p17) instead of the swarm attack p10 would lead you to expect.

The only real question is why did they stop...and being content with driving away intruders is a response noted in several books...including WB23.

It's only if you think that the Xiticix are mindless, totally instinctive killers whos sole goal is to destroy all other lifeforms instead of act for the good of the hive.

As it is, while certain aspects of WB23 do seem to indicate that the Xiticix should have destroyed Holmes, others indicate otherwise.

And if WE needed all those men just to keep a Force of "only" a few thousand well-equipped and fed, (The ENTIRE Marine Corps has only about 200,000 Men and each Support Group takes care of much lower numbers than that), then how, exactly, are you finding and getting all that Food out to your Troops, and all that Waste out of the area WITHOUT Support?? Explain that for me if you can.

Holmes spent several months in an area with buildings, towns and farms which he appropriated. He had men working fields, and there was apparently livestock left. As an inhabited area, there was presumably water. As with building, there was presumably some means for the original inhabitants to "dispose of waste".

Further, Holmes "flight" according to SoT5 wasn't actually panic stricken...although intended to look that way, SoT5 tells us it was fairly well organised. If true, he probably took along some at least supplies.

EJL

[Mech-Viper Prime]

One big hole, but come lord of REMFs, you say it's impossible, but since you know the fine details of being a non-combat support type enlighten us

Enlightening comments on the subject have been made throughout this topic.

Your comment suggests to me that you weren't reading them.

It is the responsibility of those participating in the topic to participate, and that includes keeping up on the information presented and not just saying "What says that?" (especially when its been said before), "Ha ha!", or ":lol::lol::lol:".

Naturally, there is no way to make this happen, but it is discouraging to encounter.

It is not the responsibility of other participants to recite and requote material that has been posted earlier in the topic and that has gone unrefuted. Nor is it their responsibility to re-refute material that has already been refuted. If participant A says X, and X is refuted by participants B, C, D, and F, participant A may continuing saying X as much as they wish, but it would be to no end or point unless they could successfully counter-refute the original refutations (successful being the keyword).

If a participant should continue to say X (already refuted) for long enough and despite having the original and successive refutations pointed out several times, that participant might well find themelves ignored. Others that came along later to read through the topic would see what had happened clearly enough.

funny i seems to ask a couople of questions that have been dodged but yet i should reply to thiers , yeah right
all I ask, since its canon lets see if we can figure out how could he do this vs the same old agruement , but yeah one side wants to continue how it cant be done vs trying figure how it was done.

[tenakafurey]

Yes. I still disagree with you.

And I still believe you weren't reading what I was writing.

I actually do read it. That doesn't mean I'm going to respond to everything you write, especially if I don't have my books with me.

Your position seems clear enough...

Holmes had a force greater than 20.
Holmes was an intruder.
Holmes was Coalition.
Holmes was a definite threat.

Under all these, and more, the Xiticix would apparently have destroyed him.

And, as I said, I disagree.

Holmes had a force greater than 20. Yes. He should have been attacked...he was. However, if we went by the available info, he was attacked by tens of thousands of Xiticix. Hardly the 1,000,000+ you'd expect from page 10.

The question is why? Maybe that was all they saw, maybe more joined later, maybe they just took a wild guess..whio knows.

Either way, Holmes was attacked. So far, so good.

Holmes was an intruder. Leaving aside the question of size for now, the Xiticix are known to tolerate "intruders"...even armed intruders...and even to let them go if they drive them away.

Taking into account the question of size, we see that the Xiticix response does vary with the size of the intruding force. Further, we also are told they don't always attack groups larger than 20...especially if they're not seen as encroaching on Xiticix territory, or are viewed as nomadic in nature.

You've also indicated the Xiticix viewed the CS as a "rival hive" and would thus destroy him on sight. However, while the CS has attacked the Xiticix before, there's no indication that they've yet reached that level of enmity.

And while Holmes could be viewed as a threat, he wasn't acting like one. The question here is would the Xiticix see a non-threatening, retreating force as worth the cost of utter destruction? They may have to face him later...but at that point in time, at that place...what threat was he?

EJL

[tenakafurey]

The concept of Coalition soldiers working the fields is incredibly laughable. How many infantrymen do you know who were raised on a farm.

Personally? Quite a few. In the CS...well, a lot of recruits came from the burbs...who moved there from farms, and outlying towns, villages, etc.

I'm not talking tomato gardens...I'm talking big farms. With big fields...the kind of massive crops you'd have to bring in to feed 400,000 troops.

As opposed to the family farms you'd probably expect to see in the area...you know, the kind manageable by 10 or so people and can feed several hundred.

Farms don't have to be big.

Then there was someone suggesting you could cram 80 people into a 60 man APC when the harsh realities of life are that APC's are NOT roomy vehicles. When a vehicle states it can carry 8-10 combat loaded troops, they don't have room to stretch out and set up pool tables.

Be cramped or walk outside among the Xiticix. I'd say they'd certainly try to get more into each APC.

EJL