Legal debate...

[Braden Campbell]

Can a clone be held accountable for the legal actions of its original self?

Background: Recently, it has been discovered by the Altess Armoria that a living clone of Jurgo Kilter, architect of the Altess Atrocity, has been found alive. Said clone has been returned to Altess Prime to face trial. But, Consortium TVIA Inspectors are arguing over whether or not this 18-year old man, who genetically is a perfect copy of Jurgo Kilter, can be held for crimes of attempted genocide.

The Altess want to kill him, to try and close some unresolved 9000-year old wounds. But, since they are petitioning to once again join the CCW, this pre-trial hearing must proceed.

Just curious as to how all you legal experts out there think...

[Temporalmage]

There would be no trial. There would be countless tests though. To determine if the clone possessed any of the missing memory fragments that could lead the Altess to the Cosmic Forge. After that they'd probably dispose of the abomination in a permanent fashion unless it proved useful: IE had a missing puzzle peice.

[cornholioprime]

No trial.

[Aramanthus]

No trial either. He isn't the one who commited the crimes in the first place.

[Nekira Sudacne]

the clone is a seperate being. no trial, it's not the same person.

[glitterboy2098]

i need more information.

first, is discovering a cloned person a fairly rare occurance? or is somewhat common?

second, where was this clone created, and do they have applicable laws in regards to a clones rights? if the clones homeworld does not hold a clone resonsible for the actions of its gene-donor, another nation may be required to respect and follow those laws, and use diplomatic channels to deliver a valid court case.

third, was the orginal tried for his crimes,and would a trial of the clone fall under double jeopardy laws?

for amusements sake....

[Braden Campbell]

It would be comparable to finding a clone of Hitler, today, in 2006. Only this clone has been in suspended animation since 1945 (the clone, BTW is only 18 years old). So the actual crimes committed are long over with, by about 9000 years.

The clone was discovered on the Central Alliance world of R250-728. It was originally taken into General Noldek's custody, but was turned over to the Altess in exchange for 16 frigates.


The original Jurgo Kilter was never brought to trial. Instead he died in the final assault on Novus 9, which was at that time his main technozombie/concentration camp/laboratory planet.

[Greyaxe]

MORE INFO The clone has all the memories and contacts of the original. He is the perfect clone. He immediately began contacting dark forces to come to his rescue which we believe is to complete the original work. He is using the clone angle to escape justice. Any good psychic will be able to read his thoughts and know he is thoroughly evil. I hope a CK gets him in the end.

[Braden Campbell]

He is using the clone angle to escape justice.

That's what genius super-villains do. They out think you.

You're just bitter because you have yet to receive any credit or payment for your part in his capture...

[Greyaxe]

He is using the clone angle to escape justice.

That's what genius super-villains do. They out think you.

You're just bitter because you have yet to receive any credit or payment for your part in his capture...

That is true. I think i may just go a little sniper on his ass. After all I have an evil genuis after me for blowing his hand off during his capture.

[Jefffar]

Unless you can unequivocably proove that the origional has transplanted his mind to this clone (akin to a bionic conversion or transferred intelelgence AI) this man is in no way connected to the actual crime and has an airtight alibi to boot.

[Greyaxe]

Unless you can unequivocably proove that the origional has transplanted his mind to this clone (akin to a bionic conversion or transferred intelelgence AI) this man is in no way connected to the actual crime and has an airtight alibi to boot.

What wee need to do is return to the base where we found him and gather evidence that

A the mind and memories were transfered and

B he was participating in the genocidal war during the first 18 years of his life.

[Nekira Sudacne]

MORE INFO The clone has all the memories and contacts of the original. He is the perfect clone. He immediately began contacting dark forces to come to his rescue which we believe is to complete the original work. He is using the clone angle to escape justice. Any good psychic will be able to read his thoughts and know he is thoroughly evil. I hope a CK gets him in the end.

he still didn't do it. you can't get him for the actual crime, but you hand hold him on suspicion of conspiracy to commit future crimes.

[Braden Campbell]

What we need to do is return to the base where we found him and gather evidence that

A the mind and memories were transfered and

B he was participating in the genocidal war during the first 18 years of his life.

That base has been all but destroyed by the Pilgrims... but there might be something left intact.

I'll never say never...

It all comes down this PhilDickian argument (which the Altess are trying to use): can there be a copy so perfect that for all intents and purposes it is the real thing?

[Nekira Sudacne]

What we need to do is return to the base where we found him and gather evidence that

A the mind and memories were transfered and

B he was participating in the genocidal war during the first 18 years of his life.

That base has been all but destroyed by the Pilgrims... but there might be something left intact.

I'll never say never...

It all comes down this PhilDickian argument (which the Altess are trying to use): can there be a copy so perfect that for all intents and purposes it is the real thing?

Sure. but that dosn't mean it's responsible for what it did before it was created.

[Tinker Dragoon]

I have a better question: If the clone yells profanities at you and you throw him off a balcony, is that murder, or making an obscene clone fall?

[Jefffar]

I dunno Tink, let's pretend you're a clone . . .

[Braden Campbell]

You mean, because we know the original committed vile acts, can we say for certain that the clone will.

Does the gene fall very far from the tree?

Even if it doesn't... can you hold a person for actions that they might do?

All very interesting....

[Mudang]

The better question is can you detain the clone because of the future crimes he may commit as the exact clone?

That depends on what is popular thought in the setting. Nature or Nurture?

[MADMANMIKE]

..This is a clear cut case of "GM needs to establish a rule". Specifically, what is the commonality of cloning, the level of advancement in that area of science, any precedence for suing a clone over the originators past crimes, etc.

..It has his memories, were they attained by downloads on a regular basis, ie sometime before the original was killed but after he'd committed the atrocities or began planning them? That's the crux of the matter, and if the cloning is common/known tech, then they should be a way to determine the date of those memory implants.

..Careful Braden, you're walking a fine line that might shove you into the Carmen Bellaire school of GMing...

-Mike >8]

[Braden Campbell]

Even if he has the memories of the original Jurgo Kilter (which he does... what is memory but strings of chemicals in the brain... easily recrated by a man like Kilter), the Altess need to prove that he committed the original atrocity, which he is obviously too young to have done.

He's going to walk. What happens after that could get messy...

[MADMANMIKE]

Even if he has the memories of the original Jurgo Kilter (which he does... what is memory but strings of chemicals in the brain... easily recrated by a man like Kilter), the Altess need to prove that he committed the original atrocity, which he is obviously too young to have done.

He's going to walk. What happens after that could get messy...

..Do they? I think it gets down to what kind of religious views they have, specifically what makes a persons soul..

..If they believe the person is the sum of their memories/experiences, then a younger clone with his memories would still be him. If they believe in a soul that leaves the body at death, then it can be argued that it has returned to the world of the living through this clone.

..Again the level of the tech is in question.. Consiousness transference anyone?

-Mike >8]

[Jefffar]

Of course, this will cause all sorts of vigilante fun.

[NMI]

I say make a clone of the clone... let the the 2nd clone free, but have him assassinated.. as publicly as possible. Then do what you want with the original clone.

[Braden Campbell]

Wow! We are still discussing the implication of the actions of the originals to their clones?

The legal wheels move slowly in the CCW....

[glitterboy2098]

here is the biggie question that would seem to define the answer.

does the clone beleive himself to be the orginal person, even if he knows he is a clone, or does he veiw himself as a different person?

if he beleives himself to be the orginal, despite the cloning, you could argue a good case about sins of the progenitor.

if he does not beleive himself to be the orginal, if he exhibits a very different personality from the orginal due to his upbringing, you cannot try him as the orginal, although you may be able to force him to pay resitution for the acts of his ancestor.

[glitterboy2098]

i personally would go with:

he cannot be tried and executed for the crimes of his gene-father, since he is not that person. he is a clone, and while a 'copy', he still possesses a different mind and personality because he has not experianced what his progenetor has, and while he is genetically the same, he is not made of the same flesh, making him a different person. in a way, he can be considered an 'identical twin'.

he may however be brought to trial to pay resitution (monetary or in short amount of jailtime) for the actions of his gene-father. as the orginal died before going to trial for his crimes, it falls on the shoulders of the family to atone for the persons actions.

this would allow for a trial to soothe the scars of the past, but avoids the worse act of murder of an innocent being.

[Braden Campbell]

According to an article I read in time while waiting to get my hair cut today, clones are NOT perfect copies.

The article talked about Dolly, the sheep, and how she was the only one of 270-odd attempts that actually survived. And ten years after she was born, cloning's track record is not much better.

For one thing, Dolly's telemeters (sp?) were shorter than they should have been for a lamb, so Dolly was as old at birth as her mother was.

So the science of cloning might be a rare thing in the Three Galaxies, and a perfect clone even rarer. it could be argued that if even the slightest part of this man's genetic makeup is different than the original Kilter, that he is not the same person.


And around we go again....

[Braden Campbell]

BTW----> what is memory but a series of chemicals stored in the brain as proteins? Easily copied by someone like Jurgo Kilter.

Hell, this even opens up the secondary debate of having skills and memories implanted directly into the brain... learning skills by injection...

[glitterboy2098]

tossing another Kittani-wrench into the fray...

[url=http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20010320.html]the continuity flaw.
[/url]

Schlock: Reverend, if somebody copies themselves into a machine, can't they live forever?
Reverend: Well, they can, in a sense, but not in a sense that will make you any more comfortable with death.
Reverend: Suppose I cloned myself, and then copied all of my memories into the clone.
Schlock: You'd get arrested. Now what?
Reverend: Well, now suppose that I die, but my clone lives. From the clone's point of view, life continues. From my friends' point of view, i'm still around, and still basically the same, but from my own, personal point of view, i'm dead. There was no point in the exercise. This is the fundamental problem with memory-copy immortality. We call it the continuity flaw.

from the schlock-verse perspective, Jurgo Kilter probably would be tried. (later in the comic the toughs end up rescueing billions of 'gate-clones' copied by an alien race. they manage to get paid several times by turning in the wanted men, despite executions already carried out on the orginals. required some loopholes in legal codes [mostly involving multiple death sentences, and the ability to apply all of them so the guy couldn't be tried twice, but they could execute him twice].)

however, from the perspective of the continuity flaw., this Jurgo is not the same one that did the atrocities. the clone, despite being genetically the same and having the memories of the orginal, is still a copy and thus not the orginal mind.

[Braden Campbell]

At which point he would have to find a way to avoid the inevitable assassination attempts...

If they have to let him go, he's just another Altess citizen. If he really fears for his life, he could ask for protection from the Armoria.

[Greyaxe]

The Amorea wont be able to protect him,,,, mwhahahahahah.