Was Holmes' stunt possible?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Are you dense? The topic's title alone is asking if such a thing is possible...and you're trying to belittle the people who say no it isn't?

no worse then they try to do to me

Quit saying because it's canon that it's possible. It was written that it happened. Yes, that makes it canon. The argument isn't whether or not it happened in the story or whether or not it's canon. The argument is whether or not such a feat is possible, and many of us are quite vocally saying no, it is not possible. Why should everyone be forced to figure out how to justify bad writing? You can ask everyone to try and figure out how to make sense of it, but that in no way means we are required to side with you.

all i'm asking is is to look at with a open mind, but i guess that is too much to ask in a game with magic , and aliens with guns , but have having a open mind about this is just too much. but it's possible for the slputhogorth to have a mightly space fleet becasue its canon, not if that is just load of something you find out in a filed

The concept of Coalition soldiers working the fields is incredibly laughable. How many infantrymen do you know who were raised on a farm. I'm not talking tomato gardens...I'm talking big farms. With big fields...the kind of massive crops you'd have to bring in to feed 400,000 troops. Then there was someone suggesting you could cram 80 people into a 60 man APC when the harsh realities of life are that APC's are NOT roomy vehicles. When a vehicle states it can carry 8-10 combat loaded troops, they don't have room to stretch out and set up pool tables.

I knew a quite few soldiers who grew up on farms, most of the coalition states is more rural then urban and odds are more then 50% of Coalition army has spend time working on a farm as a helper before joining the CS military

[RainOfSteel]

I yet to see any proof that holmes air troops were wiped out , just hear say and that is it.

I have yet to see any proof that he had any air troops.

However, it is logical to assume he had some.

Nevertheless, the canon suggests that he was completely out of contact with the CS for 6-12 months.

It is also logical to assume that the first priority of a loyal CS army general would be to reestablish contact with the CS. If he had some Death's Heads and/or some SAMAS left, they could have gone south and west and swung entirely around Tolkeen and been back to the CS in under a day. Yes, in under a day.

Since contact was not reestablished, that didn't happen, and we must conclude that virtually nothing in the way of air-capable units was retained. We must also conclude that long-range radio traffic was ineffective. Otherwise Holmes would have just sent a signal home about his status.

Or we must conclude that Holmes was disloyal, incompetent, or some other reaching-for-the-sky explanation that is just plain silly.

i have asked questions that seems to be dodged

If they survived 8 months cut off from the rest of the CS, then they must of had supplies to do it or found some.

First, that isn't a question. It's a statement (and not an interrogative one, either).

The idea that Holme's army found 180,000 tons of food just sitting in the wilderness (5 lbs per trooper per day, (5 * 300,000 * (30 * 8)) / 2000) is laughable. Do you know how many dear that is? 3,600,000, approximately (and I am being beyond generous at assigning 100 lbs of useable meat per dear). And no, they wouldn't have been able to locate so many freaking dear in the area there were located in and in the time they had available. In any event, they couldn't survive on meat alone, not to mention the effort required to hunt and strip 3.6 million dear.

To me, that idea is just as bad as if they found a thousand Firestorm Transports lined up and all ready to carry them back to Chi-Town in triumphant splendor . . . but then ignored them and rooted around for months while awaiting authorial need to have them swoop down as just the right moment.

And you didn't address the water needs or the human waste problem, so it appears that you are the one who is doing the "dodging".

Not like holmes is going to keep his 300,000 troops in one large group unless he has a place to hide them otherwise the they would be broken down to brigade then battlion then company then maybe platoon sizes

Logistically speaking, this is an excellent idea.

It spreads out the troops, but the area they would have to be spread out over in order to have enough room to hunt and forage for themselves would be huge.

It would also radically enhance the chances that they would be detected . . . and yet they weren't detected, which suggests that they weren't spread out.

Tolkeen Scouts might have thought its was just lone units, or CS scouts checking for anything on holmes or just simply got killed by snipers.

Then the scouts would have been stupid idiots. I dislike it when the only way to make a story work is to make all the characters in it from the two-dimensional extras to the prominent players into brainless baboons.

The scouts would have seen the units' insignia and would have known straight away what army they had come from.

The scout would have noticed them occupying the same general area for months on end. (At first, the scout would be observing them and expecting them to move on within a day, or two, or three . . . but then it would keep on stretching out further, and further, and further, and further). The scout would get the picture that these CS units weren't themselves scouts. The fact that there would be so many groups spread out over so large an area and so many abandoned human-waste dump sites from previously occupied areas would again let the scouts know what was going on.

As for support, depending on the type of unit , you normally have 2-3 support personal per company, as well as an headquarters company which normally most of the support for that battlion.

so depending on what they had in way of vechiles ,supplies , the weather , what shape the country side was in , if wild game was still in the area and in what numbers, how much shelter was around , their any number of things that could both help and hurt Holmes, but then again I'm a "glass is half full" type vs the half empty type.

You know, it's been mentioned and discussed (even in this very post) the absolute impossibility of that many troops hunting and foraging in the wild over the timeframe involved. No one is saying they couldn't do it for a little while (2-4 weeks, tops, and 4 weeks is pushing it). Just not for 6-12 months, forget it.

Not to mention how badly they'd bury the area in unprocessed human waste.

Each human generates about one pound of feces per day. ((300,000 * 1 * (30 * 8)) / 2000) = 36,000 tons of unprocessed crap. There are ocean freighters too small to carry such a load. And that doesn't even account for the urine.

[RainOfSteel]

all I ask, since its canon lets see if we can figure out how could he do this vs the same old agruement,

Again, what about the proposals that have already been put forward?

but yeah one side wants to continue how it cant be done vs trying figure how it was done.

Start a new topic then, "Let's Make Holmes' Stunt Possible."

It'll be interesting to see what comes up, and also to see just how much each explanation differs from actual canon.

[RainOfSteel]

Then there was someone suggesting you could cram 80 people into a 60 man APC when the harsh realities of life are that APC's are NOT roomy vehicles. When a vehicle states it can carry 8-10 combat loaded troops, they don't have room to stretch out and set up pool tables.

My earlier estimate of 40 troopers stuck in a 20 trooper Mark V APC was based upon the idea that they were all crammed in and had no room left to move more than an arm or twist their necks about.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I yet to see any proof that holmes air troops were wiped out , just hear say and that is it.

I have yet to see any proof that he had any air troops.

However, it is logical to assume he had some.

Nevertheless, the canon suggests that he was completely out of contact with the CS for 6-12 months.

It is also logical to assume that the first priority of a loyal CS army general would be to reestablish contact with the CS. If he had some Death's Heads and/or some SAMAS left, they could have gone south and west and swung entirely around Tolkeen and been back to the CS in under a day. Yes, in under a day.

Since contact was not reestablished didn't happen, we must conclude that virtually nothing in the way of air-capable units was retained. We must also conclude that long-range radio traffic was ineffective. Otherwise Holmes would have just sent a signal home about his status.

Or we must conclude that Holmes was disloyal, incompetent, or some other reaching-for-the-sky explanation that is just plain silly.

yup a general is can get anything he wants in the entire coalition , cant get any air troops , now that is just silly . now why would then head south when thier commanding officer is headed north ?

i have asked questions that seems to be dodged

If they survived 8 months cut off from the rest of the CS, then they must of had supplies to do it or found some.

First, that isn't a question. It's a statement (and not an interrogative one, either).

The idea that Holme's army found 180,000 tons of food just sitting in the wilderness (5 lbs per trooper per day, (5 * 300,000 * (30 * ) / 2000) is laughable. Do you know how many dear that is? 3,600,000, approximately (and I am being beyond generous at assigning 100 lbs of useable meat per dear). And no, they wouldn't have been able to locate so many freaking dear in the area there were located in and in the time they had available. In any event, they couldn't survive on meat alone, not to mention the effort required to hunt and strip 3.6 million dear.

To me, that idea is just as bad as if they found a thousand Firestorm Transports lined up and all ready to carry them back to Chi-Town in triumphant splendor . . . but then ignored them and rooted around for months while awaiting authorial need to have them swoop down as just the right moment.

And you didn't address the water needs or the human waste problem, so it appears that you are the one who is doing the "dodging".

now why holmes keep close to 3 army group in the same area, i'm sorry i have no experence in support management but that would seem to be a big time drain on resource, is holmes the only officer out there?

Not like holmes is going to keep his 300,000 troops in one large group unless he has a place to hide them otherwise the they would be broken down to brigade then battlion then company then maybe platoon sizes

Logistically speaking, this is an excellent idea.

It spreads out the troops, but the area they would have to be spread out over in order to have enough room to hunt and forage for themselves would be huge.

It would also radically enhance the chances that they would be detected . . . and yet they weren't detected, which suggests that they weren't spread out.

depends on where they were if the are camped in the area in the middle of the hivelands , which is a nice safe spot , you have the xiticix, who are watching their border pulling guard duty on left,rear and right flanks leaving in front of you to worry about, and after last time, i think holmes might have come up with some new tactics to counter it , but who knows. And holmes did send scout teams out pulling recon and security duties, holmes and his troops keep up the illusion that they are dead, if you see a scout team, you dont think its holmes scout the area, its must be one of the southern units checking out the area

Tolkeen Scouts might have thought its was just lone units, or CS scouts checking for anything on holmes or just simply got killed by snipers.

Then the scouts would have been stupid idiots. I dislike it when the only way to make a story work is to make all the characters in it from the two-dimensional extras to the prominent players into brainless baboons.

The scouts would have seen the units' insignia and would have known straight away what army they had come from.

The scout would have noticed them occupying the same general area for months on end. (At first, the scout would be observing them and expecting them to move on within a day, or two, or three . . . but then it would keep on stretching out further, and further, and further, and further). The scout would get the picture that these CS units weren't themselves scouts. The fact that there would be so many groups spread out over so large an area and so many abandoned human-waste dump sites from previously occupied areas would again let the scouts know what was going on.

yes i have my problems with this to, but then again unit insignia doesnt seem to be the coalition's strong point, but if they did holmes knows what units are in the south or in other areas , might have used the hell's gate insignia rather his own (just an example), and he might have had them switch insignias every 3 day too

As for support, depending on the type of unit , you normally have 2-3 support personal per company, as well as an headquarters company which normally most of the support for that battlion.

so depending on what they had in way of vechiles ,supplies , the weather , what shape the country side was in , if wild game was still in the area and in what numbers, how much shelter was around , their any number of things that could both help and hurt Holmes, but then again I'm a "glass is half full" type vs the half empty type.

You know, it's been mentioned and discussed (even in this very post) the absolute impossibility of that many troops hunting and foraging in the wild over the timeframe involved. No one is saying they couldn't do it for a little while (2-4 weeks, tops, and 4 weeks is pushing it). Just not for 6-12 months, forget it.

Not to mention how badly they'd bury the area in unprocessed human waste.

Each human generates about one pound of feces per day. ((300,000 * 1 * (30 * ) / 2000) = 36,000 tons of unprocessed crap. There are ocean freighters too small to carry such a load. And that doesn't even account for the urine.

i know i hear this every time i get on a cruise ship,
but what would you do if you were in his position, me i would trade with the local tribes , extra weapons for grain and corn or safe passage thru the area and you dont tell no one we were here type of things.
Its like one of the questions i asked, what type of officers and ncos would holmes have serving under him?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Are you dense? The topic's title alone is asking if such a thing is possible...and you're trying to belittle the people who say no it isn't?

no worse then they try to do to me

Quit saying because it's canon that it's possible. It was written that it happened. Yes, that makes it canon. The argument isn't whether or not it happened in the story or whether or not it's canon. The argument is whether or not such a feat is possible, and many of us are quite vocally saying no, it is not possible. Why should everyone be forced to figure out how to justify bad writing? You can ask everyone to try and figure out how to make sense of it, but that in no way means we are required to side with you.

all i'm asking is is to look at with a open mind, but i guess that is too much to ask in a game with magic , and aliens with guns , but have having a open mind about this is just too much. but it's possible for the slputhogorth to have a mightly space fleet becasue its canon, not if that is just load of something you find out in a filed

The concept of Coalition soldiers working the fields is incredibly laughable. How many infantrymen do you know who were raised on a farm. I'm not talking tomato gardens...I'm talking big farms. With big fields...the kind of massive crops you'd have to bring in to feed 400,000 troops. Then there was someone suggesting you could cram 80 people into a 60 man APC when the harsh realities of life are that APC's are NOT roomy vehicles. When a vehicle states it can carry 8-10 combat loaded troops, they don't have room to stretch out and set up pool tables.

I knew a quite few soldiers who grew up on farms, most of the coalition states is more rural then urban and odds are more then 50% of Coalition army has spend time working on a farm as a helper before joining the CS military

There's a difference between an open mind and blindly towing the party line. We're already suspending massive amounts of disbelief in the first place with the whole concept of the CS having a population no larger than 25 million people, yet oddly enough they have an army of over 1 million soldiers. 1 in 25 people are members of the military. Right.....

I don't doubt for a second you knew people raised on farms. But how many of them were there in comparison to everyone else in the company/battalion/regiment/division/corps/army? Guarantee you that there wouldn't be nearly enough to work the farms to feed the 400,000 troops. Then you've got other problems. WHat would these farms be producing? Wheat? Where's the mill? They grow corn maybe? Enough corn to feed an army for 8 months? You have any idea how much food that is?

Then there's another joy to consider. 50% of the CS is NOT most likely agrigarian. Most of the people of the CS are trying to get into the massive fortress cities. The only major food producing area of the CS is the CS Missouri. 50% of the population for the CS does not live in that area...it's actually one of the least populated portions of the entire Coalition States. There isn't a chance that there are enough smaller farms throughout the CS to supply the Coalition with its massive troop quota. Then you've got to consider that you have to look at it from a technology standpoint as we're dealing with the Coalition Army. Magic is forbidden, the Vanguard are hunted & hated and even if they were loved couldn't supply enough food for the never-stopping Holmes Train. You have to figure out how Holmes was able to keep 300,000 men fed & supplied with water over the months of travel through the hivelands.

No communication with the rest of the CS Military. No food drops. There is no way there's enough wild flora & fauna to support these troops....where's the food coming from? I suspended my disbelief quite a while ago, but there are times when disbelief cannot be held up anymore and simply snaps into the realm of "Ok, this is complete bull**** right here, Palladium."

ok lets try this Colonel Rain asks CSM Alejandro to check around the untis to see who has experinece on large farms a handful are come to light, CSM Alejandro , now puts them in charge of the farm with 200 helpers who have been farmer hands before , now this is all second natured to the former farm boys as for the food i dont know not a farmer
the Chi-town Iowa section is 70% farmland, but you always have xiticix, as some SF people i known always point out bugs are high in protien na d if there is snow on the ground there is your water along with streams and lakes and ponds thru that area. thenhj there is the local tribe of psi-stalkers and you can use the old weapons for food thing, personallyh if i said i'm not running SOT because i think its BS then i would feel i'm letting down my players as a GM and robbing them of being part another epic part of thier characters' lifes

[RainOfSteel]

There's a difference between an open mind and blindly towing the party line.

I agree, there is a difference.

As I stated myself, should I see a convincing argument that Holmes' stunt would have been possible, one that does not invoke silliness or outlandish impossibilities greater than those proposed by the canon itself, then I'll acknowledge it as such.

We're already suspending massive amounts of disbelief in the first place with the whole concept of the CS having a population no larger than 25 million people, yet oddly enough they have an army of over 1 million soldiers. 1 in 25 people are members of the military. Right.....

Uh, no. The CS population is not 25 million.

In any event, only Chi-Town could have operated troops in signficant numbers against Tolkeen, so Iron Heart's (IH) and Quebec's (QC) population doesn't matter in this regard. Both of those nations would have been unable to operate significant field forces all the way over at Tolkeen.

The effective population pool of the state of Chi-Town was, generously, about 7,000,000 around PA 107. This excludes the burbs, even canon doesn't discuss drawing population out of there until after the Sorcerer's revenge, and I've already exhaustively gone over why that is yet another one of SoT's show-stopper impossibilities (in a previous topic).

Guarantee you that there wouldn't be nearly enough to work the farms to feed the 400,000 troops. Then you've got other problems. WHat would these farms be producing? Wheat? Where's the mill? They grow corn maybe? Enough corn to feed an army for 8 months? You have any idea how much food that is?

The numbers and the reality behind them seem to escape the comprehension of some.

These simple numbers alone make the whole thing impossible.

If anyone thinks our estimates and beliefs are wrong in this matter, then please refute them! And that would be an actual refutation that includes information on how it would be possible other than resorting to "well, it said it in the books, therefore it happened"! That's the entire and whole point of the topic.

Come on! Numbers, carriage capacities, food requirements, waste disposal, work units, hunting areas, wildlife density and hunting success rates, forage amount for food in wild areas, growing seasons and planting times. Get out here and show it!

Or, as a substitute, find some real world examples of 300k troops surviving in entirely out-of-supply areas (of comparable size) where no pillaging is possible because there is no civilization.

Be prepared to support your statements.

Then there's another joy to consider. 50% of the CS is NOT most likely agrigarian. Most of the people of the CS are trying to get into the massive fortress cities. The only major food producing area of the CS is the CS Missouri.

Iowa. Iowa is a big food producing area for Chi-Town.

But much less than 50% of their effective population is agrarian. AFAICT, they do use late 19th and early 20th century farm machinery to support agriculture. It doesn't say this anywhere, but I believe it must be true, otherwise they couldn't possibly have enough food.

50% of the population for the CS does not live in that area...it's actually one of the least populated portions of the entire Coalition States. There isn't a chance that there are enough smaller farms throughout the CS to supply the Coalition with its massive troop quota.

Especially since virutally the entire adult working age population is actually in the field army itself.

There really wouldn't be much left past the young, teenagers, the old, and very old to farm and operate industrial machinery. (And that is yet another one of SoT's show-stopper impossibilities.)

Then you've got to consider that you have to look at it from a technology standpoint as we're dealing with the Coalition Army. Magic is forbidden, the Vanguard are hunted & hated and even if they were loved couldn't supply enough food for the never-stopping Holmes Train. You have to figure out how Holmes was able to keep 300,000 men fed & supplied with water over the months of travel through the hivelands.

That would be months of time after the 72-hour journey through the Hivelands.

No communication with the rest of the CS Military. No food drops. There is no way there's enough wild flora & fauna to support these troops....where's the food coming from?

Ooh! Teacher! I know!

Bread dropped from the sky!

[RainOfSteel]

The APC's aren't tall enough for them all to stand, you'd have to lie them down on top of each other and not move...sure the armor would hold, but no one can get up, get out...someone's going to get claustrophobia, the men still have to go to the bathroom and you can only pee in your armor so many times until it starts rising up to your mask since you're lying down.

I know all that. But shortly after that first estimate I conceded that since having 10,000 APCs was already completely laughable, then having 11-12,000 APCs wasn't any more laughable and that would give them more space.

----------------------------

The basic essence, which few seem to have caught onto, is that the CS army couldn't have had 10-12,000 APCs, that they couldn't have all been mounted, and that they couldn't have stayed on the move through Xiticix territory for 72-hours.

But I gave up expounding on that impossibility a while back. I had bigger impossibilities to discuss.

[RainOfSteel]

yup a general is can get anything he wants in the entire coalition , cant get any air troops , now that is just silly . now why would then head south when thier commanding officer is headed north ?

What part of "it is logical to assume he had some" is difficult to understand?

In any event, the "heading west, south, and east around Tolkeen" activity would have been a part of re-establishing contact. In other words, after they made it through the Hivelands and left the bugs behind (never mind that they should all have died there).

So, the CS army would be done moving north at that point.

In any event, the direction of the movement of the army as a whole has absolutely nothing to do with the direction of movement of a detached group(s) sent out to go make contact with Chi-Town.

now why holmes keep close to 3 army group in the same area, i'm sorry i have no experence in support management but that would seem to be a big time drain on resource, is holmes the only officer out there?

Spreading them out would help a little bit in the short run, but not in the long run.

Once the hunting started, the local wildlife that wasn't killed would immediately attempt to move on and away. Once what was left was depopulated, that would be it, starvation would set in.

People vs. land area available vs. wildlife density vs. plant forage (not much) vs. human waste produced vs. obvious activities that can be traced to the CS army.

depends on where they were if the are camped in the area in the middle of the hivelands , which is a nice safe spot

What? What are you talking about?

Camping in the middle of the Hivelands isn't safe.

but who knows.

We have only what we've been given in writing. Unfortunately that is highly contradictory.

And holmes did send scout teams out pulling recon and security duties, holmes and his troops keep up the illusion that they are dead, if you see a scout team, you dont think its holmes scout the area, its must be one of the southern units checking out the area

If Holmes was out of contact, why would he immediately know of what everyone in the "south" assumed?

Answer: He wouldn't. Therefore, he would have no basis for trying to "maintain an illusion" that he was dead.

An illusion any experienced wilderness scout would see through in a couple of days.

Then the scouts would have been stupid idiots. I dislike it when the only way to make a story work is to make all the characters in it from the two-dimensional extras to the prominent players into brainless baboons. [...]

yes i have my problems with this to, but then again unit insignia doesn't seem to be the coalition's strong point, but if they did holmes knows what units are in the south or in other areas , might have used the hell's gate insignia rather his own (just an example), and he might have had them switch insignias every 3 day too

Since Holmes' doesn't know what's up in the south, why would he have anybody switch anything?

Better, since in three weeks a full mounted army could have have completely circled around Tolkeen (first west, then south, then east) and gotten back to the CS, then why didn't they?

Since Holmes was acting without orders, the failure to return expediently when it was easy and simple to do so constitutes nothing less than cowardice in the field, an abandonment of duties (AWOL or whatever it is they call it these days), and an action that seriously increases the vulnerability of the CS as a whole.

All charges that should have gotten Holmes' shot (although I can easily see a "cover up" in this last matter).

How do you address that? Why did the CS army not return when it would have been easy and expedient to do so and it would have been Holmes duty?

but what would you do if you were in his position,

I would have continued my journey right around Tolkeen and wound up back at base before I ran out of food. It's not like there was anything in the way that could have stopped me.

Of course, they'd still have to have those 500 5000-gallon water trucks that would need daily refilling. Perhaps water was why they remained in the north.

Of course, this does not explain how the dinky little population of the CS was supporting the 1,000,000 man CS army in the field prior to the Sorcerer's Revenge, but that's only yet another of the show-stopping impossibilities of SoT.

me i would trade with the local tribes

What are your estimates on the population of these "local tribes"?

What is your source? (WB20? If so, cite and quote!)

, extra weapons

From tribes?

for grain and corn or safe passage thru the area and you dont tell no one we were here type of things.

Until I see your source for the presence of these "tribes", how you arrive at their population, and what their subsistence method is, I will have no ability to estimate the amount of spare food they could have given or traded to the CS army (and historically speaking, armies typically just take what they want, thus creating anti-CS partisans out of the "tribesfolk").

Its like one of the questions i asked, what type of officers and ncos would holmes have serving under him?

What do you mean by "type"? Are you talking experience levels, alignments, what?

At least 20-30% of the army would have been Evil. Since the high command of the CS appears to be almost entirely Evil (thanks to Karl Prosek), I assert that the higher up the chain of command you go, the higher the concentration of Evil alignments will be present.

As for experience, well, most of them would have been serving with the CS army for many years, but almost none of them would have "war" experience beyond the Tolkeen conflict itself.

Most of these officers and ncos would not wish to risk their lives on anything that looked like certain death, not for Holmes, and not for anyone. That is why I think Holmes never went into the Hivelands other than to sacrifice a few units and some skelebot formations.

Hmm, there is a problem with that, though. The fake-out units sent into the Xiticix Hiveland would have generated raiding swarms. These would have come out and found Holmes and would not have stopped until he was dead. If the entire raiding swarm was destroyed, I believe the Xiticix would not take that sitting down, the death scents would have driven the Xiticix mad. It would have drawn out the whole hive upon them.

Oh well, never mind.

[Nxla666]

One thing about the size of the CS militarys size

1: Since the RMB Chi-town has used the Burbs as recruiting grounds, mostly for assignment to the Magic Zone.

2: You must stop assuming that the Mega Fortress is the only place in Chi-town, its a State as well as a City.

3: Most militarys have been made up of farm boys, including the modern US military.

4: A nation dedicated to war having a large portion of it population as troops, considering the CS considers 16 recruiting age, is odd how?
Especially when you consider how automated the CS manufacturing is (hell it has to be just to keep up with demand).

5: While Iron Heart was told, more or less, to keep the Xiticix and FQ under surveillance that still left CS Missouri to provide additional troops.
CS Lone Star would have been busy with the Pecos Empire to provide any more than it already was.


And yes I am aware this doesn't do anything to explain Holmes Miracle March.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yup a general is can get anything he wants in the entire coalition , cant get any air troops , now that is just silly . now why would then head south when thier commanding officer is headed north ?

What part of "it is logical to assume he had some" is difficult to understand?

I believe I mentioned it earlier, yep back on page 2, that there was a blurb about Holmes ordering all the flyers grounded and to group up. There is no mention of Death's Head Transports or anything big, but I believe it was about SAMAS and such that can fly. They had flyers, but they were on the ground like everyone else, taking damage, fending of bugs with swats and smoke, and becoming 25% of the casualties.

It's been mentioned, Mech-Viper, so don't claim people are dodging the question when it's already been answered.

right

[tenakafurey]

It is also logical to assume that the first priority of a loyal CS army general would be to reestablish contact with the CS. If he had some Death's Heads and/or some SAMAS left, they could have gone south and west and swung entirely around Tolkeen and been back to the CS in under a day. Yes, in under a day.

Since contact was not reestablished, that didn't happen, and we must conclude that virtually nothing in the way of air-capable units was retained. We must also conclude that long-range radio traffic was ineffective. Otherwise Holmes would have just sent a signal home about his status.

While we can't be sure about Deaths Heads and craft like that...Holmes first attack wave against Tolkeen was composed of 12,000 SAMAS and other small fast flyers.

He made a deliberate decision not to re-establish contact...his reasoning was that in doing so, the actions of the remaining CS would help convince Tolkeen about his death.

And you didn't address the water needs or the human waste problem, so it appears that you are the one who is doing the "dodging".

Both of which easily answered by the fact that the area to the north of Tokeen seems to have had significant levels of human inhabitation. Food is more problematic though. Fishing, hunting, farming, scavenging...all might help, but without knowing the details - how spread out they were, the size and tactics of any huntings parties, what food or crops or livestock they found, how long they were out there, etc all we can say is that it looks like a difficult task.

EJL

[tenakafurey]

The APC's aren't tall enough for them all to stand, you'd have to lie them down on top of each other and not move...sure the armor would hold, but no one can get up, get out...someone's going to get claustrophobia, the men still have to go to the bathroom and you can only pee in your armor so many times until it starts rising up to your mask since you're lying down.

Going by the size of the APC (MkV) in the Rifts Main book, and that they're also used to transport SAMAS...I'd have to say they probably are big enough to allow the troopers to stand.

EJL

[Mech-Viper Prime]

back and forth

What tribes wouldnt have extra food to trade? and if you going to be operating in the area, last time you want is trouble with the locals and holmes knows that as does his officers

there is a large area inbetween the 6 hivelands, that is what i mean by that and not in the middle of a hiveland

hiveland and hivelands notice the different in the two words there is a "S" at the end of one of them

Yes while the high command might upset with holmes about the entire no contact stunt , but they also know without holmes, tolkeen would have never been taken, besides who knows who he was in contact sercetly with. perhaps food was reroute thru iron heart over the hivelands to holmes location, if the high command knows holmes is alive and maintaining the old "no one up here but us trees" ploy with the high command says its been taken care of, or we have units in the area. and lets not forget a good number of people lefted after Sorcerers' Revenge because of how that went down and running back to tell tolkeen holmes is alive and is camped up north, mostly of the people who would did that are protecting the people fleeing tolkeen, so unless holmes troops attack first, the groups fleeing tolkeen wouldnt say nothing about it or seeing coalition troops

well Jericho is evil too so i guess that makes him an uncaring bastard too huh? just because they alignment are evil doesnt make them scum of the earth types, just unwise to upset them types, because only the good alignments only care about their troops.

As from loyalty i suggest reading pg 44 to 45 of wb 11 CWC

now for my favorite part
Holmes would know which divisions that were operating in the region before, and just because holmes is working under radio silence doesnt mean, he doesnt have his troops watch the communication , and picked up that entire FQ turnabout on tolkeen, and figured the cs force there would be on the way to tolkeen region. The entire switching the insignias is to fool the enemy into thinking , that its not holmes troops but CS scouts from another army operating from the east or south

[tenakafurey]

That also doesn't mean there was anything left. We're both guessing here since the writing lacked details.

Going by SoT5, where we're told at least some of the men are working farms, etc it would seem there is something left. It may not be much, it may only be for show...but it remains a real possibility.

I'm sorry, but hunting for 300K people just wouldn't work. I live in a town that is around 200K, with everyone within 20 miles, it's probably 300K or a little more. Do I think this entire population could move into the woods and mountains and hunt to survive? Even with rationing food and water, I don't see it possible for anything but a very, very short time period. Did herds of buffalo survive the Rifts, move to the area between the Xiticix and Tolkeen, and wait to get slaughtered?

We don't know. But the area isn't like modern day USA. There is a lot of wilderness. The possibility of herds of animals isn't that far fetched. Its not like anyone abandoning the area would be likely to bring livestock with him either.

Would hunting suffice? Not on its own...at least, not without a large catchment area. But it would help.

Sounds like you're talking about Holmes at first. Why bother gathering as much supplies as possible when evacuating? Why take rations for weeks when you'll probably need months? Because you take what you can, when you can, and as much as you can.

If you're evacuating, you'll take what can't be replaced. Your possessions. If you're running, you'll leave with your most valuable gear...your possessions. Moving the food would mena the evacuatuon was planned and carried out meticulously.

Far from impossible. But it really could cut either way. They may or may not have stripped the food. Canon states Holmes found standing buildings, livestock and farms in good enough condition that he had men working the fields soon after.

Thus, we can conclude that at least some food was probably left. But a Barony able to support 150,000 people shows that the area wasn't as barren as presumed. It offers the CS shelter, water and the amenities of home. If we can account for food, they're set.

I agree it is wide open as to what really happened, plus I need to reread some of the books. Was North Tolkeen ever really attacked by the CS? I thought they were bogged down in Elemental Alley and other silly places?

Apparently they were, but the extent isn't made clear. Tolkeen then evacuated the area. And while Markeen was hit hard, there's little say the CS couldn't find something of use.

They threw a quarter-million bugs into the air, not to mention there is no mention of ground pounder numbers for the bugs, and they weren't worried? I think they were worried. They might have changed their mindset later, which is what the author wants us to believe, but the situation and how it happened is ludicrous; no CS soliders returning fire, sporadic attacks by the Xiticix amidst a swarm, etc.

Hit and run attacks are stated by WB23 to be a Xiticix tactic. WB20 states the Xiticix aren't too worried about nomadic groups, tribes, clans, etc as they aren't seen as encroaching upon their territory. WB23 shows examples where small groups are allowed to live, even if they fight.

Out of all this, the most unbelievable is expecting that the CS would universally hold fire. They probably didn't.

IMO, you are ignoring the black and white statements on previous behavior, and trying to extrapolate behavior based on opinion.

Yes...it's black and white. Trouble is....taking it as a literal truth is probably wrong. Why? Because if WB20 is correct and tribes, clans and nomadic groups aren't destroyed, or universally attacked or are only driven away, then the statement that the Xiticix fight to destroy groups of 20 or over is plainly not the entire truth.

Even then all WB23 says it that large groups *typically* elicit a response. It's thus acknowledgeing that exceptions are known to happen.

In other words, even WB23 is grey on the issue of the response the Xiticix should take wrt Holmes.

If there were behaviors versus superior numbers other than what was listed why didn't the author detail them?

He did. Feints, ambushes, wave attacks, hit and run, large troop operations, etc.

The trouble is none of this is mentioned on p10 which describes a typical Xiticix response...swarm them under. And yet, if this is the typical response to groups of 20 or more...when do these "advanced" tactics get used?

Lazlo, and even Atlantis moving against the Xiticix if needed.

Lazlo began moving against the Xiticix circa 105 PA.

As for tactics, the bugs with instinctively use tactics when needed. If you do a frontal assault and it works why would they change? Why pull back and do a flanking maneuver when you have the enemy routed and on the run? Keep attacking, it's working!

Why use any other tactic at all? Because frontal attacks are not always the best. And ambushes are particularly difficult to pull off after a frontal assault.

In short, swarming may be a preferred response...it cannot be the only one, no matter what page 10 of WB23 states.

If you survive the trip. A response of 250K bugs, which is a swarm I believe, would have the Hive so agitated, they would be attacking everything in site, including large armored troops and vehicles in their territory. Yes, they might stop once the CS left the Hivelands, but there is no reason for the sporadic attacks up till then.

And yet canon also states they are often satisified with driving groups away, even while they are in the Hivelands. Canon states they often leave nomadic groups, tribes, clans, etc alone or relatively unmolested.

Sounds like what happened to Holmes, doesn't it?

Not armies, but settlements right? Ones that have been annexed into the Hivelands by expansion and will be harrassed until they leave or destroyed eventually. Not the same thing.

Annexed settlements, loners, tribes, nomads, clans....all have been allowed to live regardless of size. Holmes trek is unusual because of its size..but it doesn't appear to be unique.

Competing and invading are not the same thing.

Holmes wasn't invading though...was he?

Invading army != Nomads, IMHO. I think you're giving these examples far too much weight.

But Holmes wasn't invading. He wasn't attacking, he wasn't challenging, he wasn't making for the hive, he wasn't staking any claim to territory. He was doing non e of the things an invader would be expected to do.

Just like any other nomadic groups, he was passing through.

Trespassing is punishable by death in Xiticix lands.

And as is shown in several books, this isn't always true. In fact, the deciding factor in those books seems to be if the Xiticix decides that you are (as WB20 puts it) encroaching on their territory...i.e staking a claim and challenging their right to it.

That is apparently why nomadic groups, tribes, clans etc get away with "trespassing".

They did attack, that's official, so why stop when you're routing the enemy? Did they feel bad for the CS? I didn't think they had emotions like that...

They weren't routing the enemy. And if the "generals" of the Xiticix are as as smart as the books stae, they had to realise Holmes was effectively letting them win. As it was, should he fight back, the Xiticix would take heavy losses.

And take it for no gain.

Isn't it also true that the Xiticix of rival Hives will work together against a common enemy? As far as the bugs know Holmes could have been moving through their lands to get to another Hive. They could have destroyed him just for that reason, which is just as believable as the reasons the attacks were sporadic, IMO.

I'm not sure. Some indications suggest yes, others no.

EJL

[RainOfSteel]

1: Since the RMB Chi-town has used the Burbs as recruiting grounds, mostly for assignment to the Magic Zone.

Cite? (I feel sure you have one . . . if only I can persuade you to post it.)

2: You must stop assuming that the Mega Fortress is the only place in Chi-town, its a State as well as a City.

I've gone over the population figures many times and well know what has been written, as well as what would actually be possible.

3: Most militarys have been made up of farm boys, including the modern US military.

As far at the modern US military goes, you're mistaken.

The vast majority of the US' population (95%+) lives in cities, and the majority of recruiting for the armed forces gets done there.

4: A nation dedicated to war having a large portion of it population as troops, considering the CS considers 16 recruiting age, is odd how?
Especially when you consider how automated the CS manufacturing is (hell it has to be just to keep up with demand).

It's odd because its absolutely impossible for a nation with an effective population by PA 107 of approximately seven million (not counting the 'Burbs) to deploy one seventh of its entire population in an army. You can't locate an example of such ever happening in the entire history of the world (for any nation past a few hundred thousand in size). Why? Because it's impossible, that's why. The budget for salaries alone breaks the bank.

For comparison, if the US had to field one-seventh of its 300 million person population, that would be an army of 42.8 million soldiers.

Think about that. No, really. Sit back and think about the US with 42.8 million soldiers. The government couldn't hope to pay for their salaries, much less their uniforms, training, food, water, waste disposal, medical care, insurance, equipment, weapons, vehicles, etc.

Nobody here can seriously suggest the US government would have a hope in Hades of fielding 42.8 million troops, and then to boot 40% or more get slaughtered (17.12 million dead), and then turn around and replace them all right away (just hire in another 17.12 million new recruits).

Yet there seems no shortage of credulity over the CS army numbers given in CWC/SoT.

I've gone over this extensively.

5: While Iron Heart was told, more or less, to keep the Xiticix and FQ under surveillance that still left CS Missouri to provide additional troops.
CS Lone Star would have been busy with the Pecos Empire to provide any more than it already was.

Yes, there was Missouri. No industry to speak of, and not much of a population. Their contribution would have been quite small except to produce mass quantities of food to flow into the enormous maw of the Chi-Town armies.

And yes I am aware this doesn't do anything to explain Holmes Miracle March.

It's all loosely related to the SoT, as being some of the basis behind the CS military itself.

[RainOfSteel]

back and forth

What tribes [...]

Yes, that is my question.

I asked you to cite and quote your source on their existence and provide more information about their population and subsistence methods.

Since you did not, should I assume they do not exist at all?

Yes while the high command might upset with holmes about the entire no contact stunt , but they also know without holmes, tolkeen would have never been taken

You are trying to use retro-active justification, saying that the CS high command was right to be happy with his victory. Well of course they were happy, after the fact.

But Holmes couldn't have known anything of that coming out of the Hivelands, 6-12 months before his victory. He was in charge of a very large block of CS troops and armed might. His absence could easily have made the CS vulnerable to all sorts of problems. By hiding out for a lengthy period of time, he could have been the author of the CS' annihilation. How was Holmes to know that Tolkeen's forces would all suddenly give up after the Sorcerer's Revenge like weak-kneed morons?

Answer: He couldn't have known any of that, and he couldn't have risked the problems that might have occurred to the CS given the sudden absence of so large an vital a force.

He was out of supply, and had the time and probable remaining supplies to get back to base in a hurry.

There was every reason to go back, and only starvation past a month at most for staying.

[RainOfSteel]

[...] so don't claim people are dodging the question when it's already been answered.

Zylo,

A lot of questions have been answered so far, and yet a lot of those answers are getting ignored, over, and over, and over, and over again.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

ok this is off of State & County QuickFacts

Population, 2004 estimate 12,713,634 for Illinois
Population, 2004 estimate 2,954,451 for Iowa


now 109pa
Chi town city 2.2 million
burbs over 4 million aftermath vs 3 million RUE

the rest of State of Chi-town (which includes Iowa and Illinois)
Iowa section is 1.3 million
Illinios section 6-9 million without count in the towns and villages
grand total of 7.3 to 10.3 million not count towns and villages

Chi-town state has 12 other city and burbs to recuit from too , not just the city of chi-town

[Mech-Viper Prime]

back and forth

What tribes [...]

Yes, that is my question.

I asked you to cite and quote your source on their existence and provide more information about their population and subsistence methods.

Since you did not, should I assume they do not exist at all?

Yes while the high command might upset with holmes about the entire no contact stunt , but they also know without holmes, tolkeen would have never been taken

You are trying to use retro-active justification, saying that the CS high command was right to be happy with his victory. Well of course they were happy, after the fact.

But Holmes couldn't have known anything of that coming out of the Hivelands, 6-12 months before his victory. He was in charge of a very large block of CS troops and armed might. His absence could easily have made the CS vulnerable to all sorts of problems. By hiding out for a lengthy period of time, he could have been the author of the CS' annihilation. How was Holmes to know that Tolkeen's forces would all suddenly give up after the Sorcerer's Revenge like weak-kneed morons?

Answer: He couldn't have known any of that, and he couldn't have risked the problems that might have occurred to the CS given the sudden absence of so large an vital a force.

He was out of supply, and had the time and probable remaining supplies to get back to base in a hurry.

There was every reason to go back, and only starvation past a month at most for staying.

pony tail tribe for one

now cite where it states holmes is out of supplies

[Mech-Viper Prime]

[...] so don't claim people are dodging the question when it's already been answered.

Zylo,

A lot of questions have been answered so far, and yet a lot of those answers are getting ignored, over, and over, and over, and over again.

i will claim it if i want, if i dont feel the questions are not being answered

[tenakafurey]

1: Since the RMB Chi-town has used the Burbs as recruiting grounds, mostly for assignment to the Magic Zone.

Cite? (I feel sure you have one . . . if only I can persuade you to post it.)

SoT2, p11

"Moreover, casualties at Tolkeen were always expected to be relatively high, so half the army is composed of volunteers recruited from the desperate masses of the 'Burbs"

So...500,000 from a population of 3-4 million around Chi-Town alone. High....but their deaths aren't going to affect the CS.

EJL

[cornholioprime]

Just asking a question here, did Holmes take in 400K line troops ie just armor, flyboys, infantry in or was it 400K mixed troops, talking about also taking in mechanics, medics, logistics, armorers, communications, and combat engineers in the mix? How many of his 400K force made up of skelebots or were they left out of the force total?

Skelebots were not included in the 400,000 troops. The 400,000 soldiers can be relatively safely assumed to be mixed soldiers of infantry, vehicle crewmen, robot pilots, SAMAS pilots, and support personnel. Skelebots are always included in equipment tallies, but not personnel ones.

Even so, probably a handul of Support, in Theater with the Frontline Troops, at best.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

[...] so don't claim people are dodging the question when it's already been answered.

Zylo,

A lot of questions have been answered so far, and yet a lot of those answers are getting ignored, over, and over, and over, and over again.

i will claim it if i want, if i dont feel the questions are not being answered

and question i have asked how been tippy toed around

[grandmaster z0b]

I went away, went over SoT 5 and all through my books of military history.

Let's forget about whether the Xiticix acted as they should do in WB:23 for a moment.

There is still no way I can see that an army of such massive proportions can march for any length of time without being spotted by either the enemy, their own army or at least by some passing travelers who would then pass the info on.

Impossible.

The entire population of Minneapolis City Minnesota, going on a walk, nobody noticed, they never stopped, there was enough food and water, there were no supply lines

If you really think that it's plausible then let's take this to a military history/discussion forum and see what they think.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I went away, went over SoT 5 and all through my books of military history.

Let's forget about whether the Xiticix acted as they should do in WB:23 for a moment.

There is still no way I can see that an army of such massive proportions can march for any length of time without being spotted by either the enemy, their own army or at least by some passing travelers who would then pass the info on.

Impossible.

The entire population of Minneapolis City Minnesota, going on a walk, nobody noticed, they never stopped, there was enough food and water, there were no supply lines

If you really think that it's plausible then let's take this to a military history/discussion forum and see what they think.

well since it canon i dont have too

[Mech-Viper Prime]

May be on that very day, the sun was so damn bright that all the Xiticix went blind........... No sun-shades to fit all their eyes.

with fog coming off the dinosaur swamp and glitter off the moon ,and an opening of a rifts that dropped supplies off the the coalition,

besides who to say the vanguard dont drop off tons of supplies to them fresh from phase world

[tenakafurey]

There is still no way I can see that an army of such massive proportions can march for any length of time without being spotted by either the enemy, their own army or at least by some passing travelers who would then pass the info on.

You mean, after walking through a sparsely populated wilderness, and taking care to neutralise the few people who remained in the area, they should have been spotted by an army which was to the south of a city over 100 miles south of them?

EJL

[Mech-Viper Prime]

\
The entire population of Minneapolis City Minnesota, going on a walk, nobody noticed, they never stopped, there was enough food and water, there were no supply lines

which is close to 3 million people in in 2000 for the Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington Metropolitan Statistical Area. holmes number of troops 400,000. now there is a little different between your statement and what KevSim had done.

[grandmaster z0b]

There is still no way I can see that an army of such massive proportions can march for any length of time without being spotted by either the enemy, their own army or at least by some passing travelers who would then pass the info on.

You mean, after walking through a sparsely populated wilderness, and taking care to neutralise the few people who remained in the area, they should have been spotted by an army which was to the south of a city over 100 miles south of them?

EJL

Do you have any idea what kind of resources and infrastructure you need for 400 000 people? Well clearly you don't because you wouldn't be saying it ifd you did.

The entire population of Minneapolis City Minnesota, going on a walk, nobody noticed, they never stopped, there was enough food and water, there were no supply lines Roll Eyes

which is close to 3 million people in in 2000 for the Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington Metropolitan Statistical Area. holmes number of troops 400,000. now there is a little different between your statement and what KevSim had done.

What?
What are you talking about? The population of Minneapolis City Minnesota in 2000 was 382,618. Here is the official census: http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/citywor ... ensus2000/

I didn't say the the entire surrounding area I said Minneapolis City.

I would suspend my disbelief if the numbers were much smaller, say 40 000.

[tenakafurey]

Do you have any idea what kind of resources and infrastructure you need for 400 000 people? Well clearly you don't because you wouldn't be saying it ifd you did.

You were saying detection was impossible...not that the troops couldnt' have supported themselves.

If that's your point, water and shelter have been accounted for. The area was inhabited, was inhabited for a long epriod of time and there are/were towns, cities and farms in the area.

Problems of waste disposal, hiding from aerial surveillance, and water have been solved.

Food? Different matter. We don't really know enough to say how big an impact hunting and fishing could have made, if Holmes was serious about the farming issue, and if so, how serious, what stores were left in the area, how much livestock, what support did Holmes bring with him, how long was he out there, how much food does a CS Grunt carry with him, etc.

Lots of variables.

As it is, 400,000 men is about the same size as Napoleans army when he invaded Russia. He reached Moscow despite a scorched earth policy by the Russians which prevented the army conducting its usual ":foraging" operations. Now, while it's not a perfect example...far from it...Holmes wasn't facing a scorched earth policy, his men were in better health and better equipped, they didn't face a Russian winter and it's likely/possible CS rations are high-calorie, high nutrition meals that are relatively lightweight.

Amnd given that Holmes had time to asses the situation, make a plan and stage a fake withdrawal, odds are that he was able to acquire a good many supply units to go with him.

EJL

[grandmaster z0b]

Well it's like trying to say that nobody would have noticed Napoleons army, and by resources I meant the use of resources is what make them obvious. Forraging parties would had to have been massive and constantly moving which makes hiding again very difficult.

Holmes had virtually no time to plan, he withdrew from battle in a feigned retreat so his resources for a lengthy stay would have been scant at best. A better way to put it is that any army either modern or from the past, like Napoleon's, would have had to spend many days in preperation for such a march. Look at what happened to Napoleon's army when the Russians attacked his supply lines, huge amounts of troops died from disease, weakened by hunger, thousands more deserted.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Lots of variables

funny how some dont what to factor other things in, they just rather say it cant be done

[grandmaster z0b]

Lots of variables

funny how some dont what to factor other things in, they just rather say it cant be done

It's funny how you haven't responded to any of my major critisms. Really easy to when you only respond to what you like and not actually provide any evidence or explanation, then draw back to "it's canon" when you can't think of anything else to say.
Oh yeah then type a few more times.

If you want to make the canon make sense you must at least consider dropping the numbers of troops.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Lots of variables

funny how some dont what to factor other things in, they just rather say it cant be done

It's funny how you haven't responded to any of my major critisms. Really easy to when you only respond to what you like and not actually provide any evidence or explanation, then draw back to "it's canon" when you can't think of anything else to say.
Oh yeah then type a few more times.

If you want to make the canon make sense you must at least consider dropping the numbers of troops.

wow atleast you are still here, i put alot of things that could have happened, but since it mine depends on how many and of which type of vechiles and how well it was stocked, then weather , local animals and what number are they at , a herd of rhino-buffalo , might be able to feed that many troops, but its not like they have to get the food all at once, and if he send troops back to thier old base camps to recon the area and look for supplies,

Lots of variables

that one side would rather just disregard it then say you know it could be possible

[Ghost]

Wouldn't it be expected that the Tolkeen forces or Holmes' own troops looted/razed the old base camp? Leaving little if anything of use.
Not to mention that they would have to cross through the hivelands again, this time without the dubious protection of being a 400k man army that lost almost 1/4. This time putting them in the "over 20 and easy to mob to Death" category.
Not to mention that there is nothing in the book to even HINT that they tried to do so.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Wouldn't it be expected that the Tolkeen forces or Holmes' own troops looted/razed the old base camp? Leaving little if anything of use.
Not to mention that they would have to cross through the hivelands again, this time without the dubious protection of being a 400k man army that lost almost 1/4. This time putting them in the "over 20 and easy to mob to Death" category.
Not to mention that there is nothing in the book to even HINT that they tried to do so.

actually you wouldn't have to go thru the hiveland again, besides noone here know exactly where his basecamp but then again book the books dont say alot of the thing the holmes did to survive or not to survive that both sides tried to use.

alot of the details of holmes trip are not there and what is there does go hand and hand with the info in Xiticix Invasion, but then again this would fall under Special Orders, which most military people should know

example you are out on guard duty at a moutain base and a oceanliner falls out of the sky, what do you do?

[tenakafurey]

Well it's like trying to say that nobody would have noticed Napoleons army, and by resources I meant the use of resources is what make them obvious. Forraging parties would had to have been massive and constantly moving which makes hiding again very difficult.

The trouble is....there was nobody really there to look.

The area had been abandoned by Tolkeen. They'd pulled back. The few forces they left behind were little more than a token force, and were swiftly destroyed.

SoT6 further elaborates on this...a few patrols were seen, assumed to be part of the main CS force and counter forces dispatched. These were destroyed, but weren't missed because they often stayed in the field for months.

Likewise, patrols of air elementals apparently saw them, but their orders were for air forces. So, they were left alone and weren't reported.

Holmes had virtually no time to plan, he withdrew from battle in a feigned retreat so his resources for a lengthy stay would have been scant at best.

That may or may not be true. He was apparently able to study the suituation, determine what Tolkeens goal was, find out enough to determine success vs Tolkeen was impossible/unlikely and then to issue orders to stage a fake, panic stricken retreat that was in fact anything but.

In short, it appears from SoT that Holmes forces weren't actually hit directly - this was in keeping with Tolkeens stated objectives, but it would appear to have been a strategy that gave Holmes time to mobilise.

He probably didn't have time to do everything he wanted to do, but all he needed for each supply truck was a driver. Troops needed a few minutes to get armoured up and pick up their kit....which was likely close by. Robot pilots had time to start up their robots. And so on.

What would they have left behind? Tents, anything that was unpacked, perhaps personal gear. But anything that was in a vehicle should have been fairly ready to go. That includes supply vehicles....get in, switch on, drive off.

A better way to put it is that any army either modern or from the past, like Napoleon's, would have had to spend many days in preperation for such a march. Look at what happened to Napoleon's army when the Russians attacked his supply lines, huge amounts of troops died from disease, weakened by hunger, thousands more deserted.

Napoleons army starved because the Russians conducted a scorched earth policy agaisnt them. Normally...they foraged. Troopers carried 4 days of food, with 8 in the baggage train - which they were encouarged not to use. Napoleons army "travelled light".

And yet, despite this, despite the scorched earth policy which removed the food and people they foraged off, and attacks on the supply train, they reached Moscow. And other places.

Now, as I said, it's an imperfect analogy and not totally applicable here. But Holmes men were better trained, equipped and experienced. The food they had kept longer. They didn't need to rely on animals to transport food. And so on.

In other words, if Napoleon could keep an army alive on what it foraged and scavenged, maybe Holmes could do the same...at least for a time.

EJL

[tenakafurey]

If you want to make the canon make sense you must at least consider dropping the numbers of troops.

To be fair, it always struck me that the 400,000 was possibly a misreading that simply got carried through and that it should have been 40,000...Holmes field army of around 30,000 plus stragglers from the group that was actually hit.

Canon, however, states otherwise and the descriptions which refer to it as one-third the CS army indicate that 400,000 was the correct figure.

So, it's what we have to work with.

EJL

[DhAkael]

Not bothering to read the thread... bores me to tears.
No.
Simple "No."
Holmes would have died. Anyone remember 'Aliens'? That was just a under 100 bugs, and the bugs didn't have long ranged weaponry.
Homes was against several 1000 bugs...with INVISIBLE SILENT weapons.

Full scale tactical nukes would have been only way to get through...period.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

There isn't much point in repeating or arguing. Even though it's been stated that most of us don't believe it was impossible to do, just impossible the way it was written, some *cough*Mech-Viper*cough* just ignore that.

what some cheese? as I posted ways it could have done, with the same replies, lets been called foolish for it, yes the WB 23 states how the xiticix will react to large number in late fall, early winter with a full strike force, bugs dont like the cold, why would the Xiticix be any different? there are alot of factor, and I'm not counting food and water in to the factors yet , i hear "he doesnt have this and that because the book didnt say so", well that is a two way street. most of my posts stated depending on what holmes had, vs the standard blank "No, he couldnt do it". i do believe i tried to get everybody on the same page, but some didnt what to do it instead trying to see how it could be and reverse it , nope it cant be done.

As for the notion that nobody was in the North, didn't many people go home after Sorcerer's Revenge? None of them were from the North? It's easier to have Tolkeen be stupid, like the Warlocks telling their Elementals to look for air forces only to the North. What? Apparently they were new at this "giving orders to elementals" thing or were oblivious militarily.

well the tolkeen did goto thru a number of people lefted after Sorcerer's Revenge disgusted on how it went down, so who is going to run back and tell them "hey holmes is still alive" no wait most lets see 53% of tolkeen forces were losted in the Sorcerer's Revenge attack, and 25% that survived lefted tolkeen in disgusted, most got their paycheck and lefted and some lefted without getting paided.
and with the coalition massing at the south and west, and with less manpower and holmes believed to be dead, so why guard the north with a large force to fight someone who is dead. as for the Elementals lets forget thier IQ is 4 ,so if a warlock attack anything flying that looks like old cs sky cycle the creature will just attack that type of vechile and nothing esle , perhaps that was the only wreakage around

*says last rites over this thread*

this is a zombie thread

[grandmaster z0b]

If you want to make the canon make sense you must at least consider dropping the numbers of troops.

To be fair, it always struck me that the 400,000 was possibly a misreading that simply got carried through and that it should have been 40,000...Holmes field army of around 30,000 plus stragglers from the group that was actually hit.

Canon, however, states otherwise and the descriptions which refer to it as one-third the CS army indicate that 400,000 was the correct figure.

So, it's what we have to work with.

EJL

Well I'm more than happy to adjust things that don't make sense, I said at the start I was happy to discuss how this could be possible but that requires changing what it says in the books. Reducing the numbers of troops means that 80% of the obvious problems don't seem as impossible.

Napoleons army was able to mainly feed itself off the land, but they still had supply lines and generally were wondering through farmland. Xiticix territory isn't farmlands so it wouldn't provide enough food. "Foraging" often actually meant stealing grain from Granneries, and food from storehouses. They rarely actually reaped the fields or did any harvesting.

Holmes couldn't do any of that.

Because of the Russians scorched earth policy the French had to rely on supply lines, which the russians attacked at weak points with hit and run tactics. This caused the French to loose moral and men from hunger, disease and desertion. They only had 20 000 left by the time they got back to France.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

If you want to make the canon make sense you must at least consider dropping the numbers of troops.

To be fair, it always struck me that the 400,000 was possibly a misreading that simply got carried through and that it should have been 40,000...Holmes field army of around 30,000 plus stragglers from the group that was actually hit.

Canon, however, states otherwise and the descriptions which refer to it as one-third the CS army indicate that 400,000 was the correct figure.

So, it's what we have to work with.

EJL

Well I'm more than happy to adjust things that don't make sense, I said at the start I was happy to discuss how this could be possible but that requires changing what it says in the books. Reducing the numbers of troops means that 80% of the obvious problems don't seem as impossible.

Napoleons army was able to mainly feed itself off the land, but they still had supply lines and generally were wondering through farmland. Xiticix territory isn't farmlands so it wouldn't provide enough food. "Foraging" often actually meant stealing grain from Granneries, and food from storehouses. They rarely actually reaped the fields or did any harvesting.

Holmes couldn't do any of that.

Because of the Russians scorched earth policy the French had to rely on supply lines, which the russians attacked at weak points with hit and run tactics. This caused the French to loose moral and men from hunger, disease and desertion. They only had 20 000 left by the time they got back to France.

well since we dont know where he come out just the direction he headed, it's possible he ended up on the other side of the xiticix hivelands and made the trek south after getting resupplied in the north. Farmlands herds of animals and fish, so depending on where he come out and what shape the area was in. I get the impression that some think the the xiticix hivelands goes from earth to hiveland like the bugs bunny cartoon about the north and south , north is modern, barren and cold, and dead looking but the moment he hits the mason-dixie line everything is alive, lush, and warm , which i dont believe is the case i think its slowly goes from earth to an xiticix enviroment.

[Nxla666]

If you want to make the canon make sense you must at least consider dropping the numbers of troops.

To be fair, it always struck me that the 400,000 was possibly a misreading that simply got carried through and that it should have been 40,000...Holmes field army of around 30,000 plus stragglers from the group that was actually hit.

Canon, however, states otherwise and the descriptions which refer to it as one-third the CS army indicate that 400,000 was the correct figure.

So, it's what we have to work with.

EJL

Well I'm more than happy to adjust things that don't make sense, I said at the start I was happy to discuss how this could be possible but that requires changing what it says in the books. Reducing the numbers of troops means that 80% of the obvious problems don't seem as impossible.

Napoleons army was able to mainly feed itself off the land, but they still had supply lines and generally were wondering through farmland. Xiticix territory isn't farmlands so it wouldn't provide enough food. "Foraging" often actually meant stealing grain from Granneries, and food from storehouses. They rarely actually reaped the fields or did any harvesting.

Holmes couldn't do any of that.

Because of the Russians scorched earth policy the French had to rely on supply lines, which the russians attacked at weak points with hit and run tactics. This caused the French to loose moral and men from hunger, disease and desertion. They only had 20 000 left by the time they got back to France.

well since we dont know where he come out just the direction he headed, it's possible he ended up on the other side of the xiticix hivelands and made the trek south after getting resupplied in the north. Farmlands herds of animals and fish, so depending on where he come out and what shape the area was in. I get the impression that some think the the xiticix hivelands goes from earth to hiveland like the bugs bunny cartoon about the north and south , north is modern, barren and cold, and dead looking but the moment he hits the mason-dixie line everything is alive, lush, and warm , which i dont believe is the case i think its slowly goes from earth to an xiticix enviroment.

I picture it more like the creep from Starcraft.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

If you want to make the canon make sense you must at least consider dropping the numbers of troops.

To be fair, it always struck me that the 400,000 was possibly a misreading that simply got carried through and that it should have been 40,000...Holmes field army of around 30,000 plus stragglers from the group that was actually hit.

Canon, however, states otherwise and the descriptions which refer to it as one-third the CS army indicate that 400,000 was the correct figure.

So, it's what we have to work with.

EJL

Well I'm more than happy to adjust things that don't make sense, I said at the start I was happy to discuss how this could be possible but that requires changing what it says in the books. Reducing the numbers of troops means that 80% of the obvious problems don't seem as impossible.

Napoleons army was able to mainly feed itself off the land, but they still had supply lines and generally were wondering through farmland. Xiticix territory isn't farmlands so it wouldn't provide enough food. "Foraging" often actually meant stealing grain from Granneries, and food from storehouses. They rarely actually reaped the fields or did any harvesting.

Holmes couldn't do any of that.

Because of the Russians scorched earth policy the French had to rely on supply lines, which the russians attacked at weak points with hit and run tactics. This caused the French to loose moral and men from hunger, disease and desertion. They only had 20 000 left by the time they got back to France.

well since we dont know where he come out just the direction he headed, it's possible he ended up on the other side of the xiticix hivelands and made the trek south after getting resupplied in the north. Farmlands herds of animals and fish, so depending on where he come out and what shape the area was in. I get the impression that some think the the xiticix hivelands goes from earth to hiveland like the bugs bunny cartoon about the north and south , north is modern, barren and cold, and dead looking but the moment he hits the mason-dixie line everything is alive, lush, and warm , which i dont believe is the case i think its slowly goes from earth to an xiticix enviroment.

I picture it more like the creep from Starcraft.

never played that game but i take it's kinda like the terraforming in the lastest War of the world starring everybody favorite couch jumper and wacko tom cruise

[tenakafurey]

Well I'm more than happy to adjust things that don't make sense, I said at the start I was happy to discuss how this could be possible but that requires changing what it says in the books. Reducing the numbers of troops means that 80% of the obvious problems don't seem as impossible.

The only problem that reducing the size would eliminate is that of food.

Napoleons army was able to mainly feed itself off the land, but they still had supply lines and generally were wondering through farmland. Xiticix territory isn't farmlands so it wouldn't provide enough food. "Foraging" often actually meant stealing grain from Granneries, and food from storehouses. They rarely actually reaped the fields or did any harvesting.

And it turns out that the place where they stayed for "months" was actually farmland. Lets say they each trooper carried the 4-5 days food a Napoleonic trooper was expected to. Add in another 5-7 days in whatever supply wagons they had.

Were they in the hivelands for 10 days? Probably not. They probably weren't in there for more than 5.

But for that week or two, they wouldn't need to forage. Stop every so often to switch riders and passengers so wlakers rest, and those carried get to stretch their legs. Water depends on what rivers/lakes there were...according to the books, there is a lot in the area. How long did they stop for? A few minutes at a time...say, 5-10 minutes.

EJL

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well I'm more than happy to adjust things that don't make sense, I said at the start I was happy to discuss how this could be possible but that requires changing what it says in the books. Reducing the numbers of troops means that 80% of the obvious problems don't seem as impossible.

The only problem that reducing the size would eliminate is that of food.

Napoleons army was able to mainly feed itself off the land, but they still had supply lines and generally were wondering through farmland. Xiticix territory isn't farmlands so it wouldn't provide enough food. "Foraging" often actually meant stealing grain from Granneries, and food from storehouses. They rarely actually reaped the fields or did any harvesting.

And it turns out that the place where they stayed for "months" was actually farmland. Lets say they each trooper carried the 4-5 days food a Napoleonic trooper was expected to. Add in another 5-7 days in whatever supply wagons they had.

Were they in the hivelands for 10 days? Probably not. They probably weren't in there for more than 5.

But for that week or two, they wouldn't need to forage. Stop every so often to switch riders and passengers so wlakers rest, and those carried get to stretch their legs. Water depends on what rivers/lakes there were...according to the books, there is a lot in the area. How long did they stop for? A few minutes at a time...say, 5-10 minutes.

EJL

i would say 24 to 30 hours at most, you can cover alot ground at 10 mph

[cornholioprime]

Hmm... Are you guys trying to make this the longest thread on this server?

It's nowhere even close.

THAT honor belongs to Zer0 Kay and the "Teleport" Thread.

Imagine a Thread with 10,000 Pages!!!

Yep, that many.

[Vrykolas2k]

Hmm... Are you guys trying to make this the longest thread on this server?

It's nowhere even close.

THAT honor belongs to Zer0 Kay and the "Teleport" Thread.

Imagine a Thread with 10,000 Pages!!!

Yep, that many.

Gods....
I remember that one...

[grandmaster z0b]

Well I'm more than happy to adjust things that don't make sense, I said at the start I was happy to discuss how this could be possible but that requires changing what it says in the books. Reducing the numbers of troops means that 80% of the obvious problems don't seem as impossible.

The only problem that reducing the size would eliminate is that of food.

No, all logistical problems are eased, first off water, it would make it much easier for them to hide from the enemy, easier to protect themselves (as they wouldn't big in such a massive formation) and they could split up into smaller groups to avoid being swarmed by the Xiticix.

Napoleons army was able to mainly feed itself off the land, but they still had supply lines and generally were wondering through farmland. Xiticix territory isn't farmlands so it wouldn't provide enough food. "Foraging" often actually meant stealing grain from Granneries, and food from storehouses. They rarely actually reaped the fields or did any harvesting.

And it turns out that the place where they stayed for "months" was actually farmland. Lets say they each trooper carried the 4-5 days food a Napoleonic trooper was expected to. Add in another 5-7 days in whatever supply wagons they had.

Were they in the hivelands for 10 days? Probably not. They probably weren't in there for more than 5.

But for that week or two, they wouldn't need to forage. Stop every so often to switch riders and passengers so wlakers rest, and those carried get to stretch their legs. Water depends on what rivers/lakes there were...according to the books, there is a lot in the area. How long did they stop for? A few minutes at a time...say, 5-10 minutes.

EJL

The biggest problem for me is the logistics of feeding and watering the army, 400 000 people needs the same supplies as a city, whereas 40 000 is far closer to a realistic army. I find it hard to believe that the CS even has 400 000 troops being led by one man. I always thought the CS made up for lack troops with skelebots and making soldiers more powerful through power armour and giant robots. The million man army thing I found a bit much, but I could believe it as they were mainly from the burbs and considered cannon fodder. I still thought most of that 1 000 000 man army was support personnel, not troops.

I also think it's impossible to hide that amount of troops, just the dust and smoke from their marching would be easy to see for miles around and all the forraging parties would be tearing up the landscape to feed them all would be really obvious, just because virtually nobody was living there doesn't change that. There would be soldiers going AWOL, injured mercs fleeing the area, nomadic tribes and d-bees travelling through there, people who refused to leave their homes, scouts from both armies and flyers doing surveillance. No I don't believe that Tolkeen only sent air elementals and never asked them "Did you see any CS forces?". You cannot hide that amount of troops for any length of time.

Now change that to 40 000, a lot of the problems still exist but it's much easier to believe (or to suspend your disbelief). Here's how I think it should happen:

Holmes retreated from the Sorcerors Revenge with over 50 000 troops, but split them up into various smaller divisions leaving 10 000 in two groups to cover his retreat. They both head for high ground where they can dig in and defend themselves, they call in for CS reinforcements, and Tolkeen forces focus on them.

In the meantime Holmes sends small scouting parties ahead to check for signs of the enemy or Xiticix as well as getting the lay of the land. He takes all of his skelebot troops (say 5 - 10 thousand) and sends them first east towards Tolkeen and then north directly towards the Duluth Hive. This is a diversionary tactic which he hopes will get the attention of both Tolkeen and the Xiticix, drawing the Tolkeen forces towards the hive where both his enemies will kill each other. Tolkeen do send some forces north but only for observation, they aren't fooled into sending their own army into the hivelands.

Holmes splits his forces into smaller groups again and sends some north to light large forrest fires on the border of Xiticix territory. The Xiticx go into swarm mode against the skelebots who are told to defend themselves, but not to go into all out attack unless they are attacked on mass. Their orders are almost the same as the orders Holmes gives his own men, but instead of jabbing and swatting, they are ordered to fire only on any Xiticix that attack them. This gets them into the Hivelands before the Xiticix decide they are a real threat and then the swarm strikes. The Skelebots have a pre-programmed battle plan that invloves a third fortifying themselves at the closest defendable position while the other two thirds divide into two (the front column and back column) and then move north and south respectively, trying to split the swarm into two and away from the third skelebot group that has dug in. The swarm gets a message from a Queen not to break into two and to attack the fortified group, they take heavy damage but then the other two skelebot groups turn around and close in on the swarm in a pincer. Eventually the entire skelebot army is destroyed but the Xiticix have taken heavy losses themselves, however they think they have won a major battle and go back into the hive.

During this time Holmes has many of his men march in hundreds of smaller groups along the southern edge of the hivelands, protected by the wall of smoke created by the forrest fires. Others, including all APCs and Robots, have dug themsleves into trenches far north of Tolkeen and hide there. Tolkeen know something is going on but grossly missunderestimate Holmes' force presuming the main attack was from the skelebots, trying to lure them north, which they know have been defeated.

The CS are aware of Holmes' existance but cannot communicate with them for fear of radio being intercepted, however high flying CS recon planes spot about 20% - 50% of his forces, they are fooled by the measures designed to hide them from Tolkeen recon.

CS drop supplies from the air for the troops (mainly food, water and ammo) as well as some paratroopers, Tolkeen know about the supplies but are on the lookout for SAMAS as they have been given intel that they are going to send armoured flying reinforcements, and don't expect paratroopers so assume it's all supplies.

The rest of the war goes fairly much according to the books except the final assault which is intiated by Holmes, Tolkeen knew he was there but never knew the extent of his ground forces, especially after being reinforced by paratroopers and weren't well prepared for an attack from the North. This is quickly followed up with an attack from the main CS force and finally the CS send Holmes SAMAS reinforcements that have flown around the area and come in from the east.

I would also put more of an emphasis on artillery and air power as reasons for CS victory.