Reworking Holmes' stunt - ideas?

[grandmaster z0b]

I'm starting a new thread specifically to discuss a more realistic approach to Holmes' stunt in SoT 5. Please post your ideas but let's not get into another massive debate about whether it's possible or not.

Here's how I think it should happen:

Holmes retreated from the Sorcerors Revenge with over 50 000 troops, but split them up into various smaller divisions leaving 10 000 in two groups to cover his retreat. They both head for high ground where they can dig in and defend themselves, they call in for CS reinforcements, and Tolkeen forces focus on them.

In the meantime Holmes sends small scouting parties ahead to check for signs of the enemy or Xiticix as well as getting the lay of the land. He takes all of his skelebot troops (say 5 - 10 thousand) and sends them first east towards Tolkeen and then north directly towards the Duluth Hive. This is a diversionary tactic which he hopes will get the attention of both Tolkeen and the Xiticix, drawing the Tolkeen forces towards the hive where both his enemies will kill each other. Tolkeen do send some forces north but only for observation, they aren't fooled into sending their own army into the hivelands.

Holmes splits his forces into smaller groups again and sends some north to light large forrest fires on the border of Xiticix territory. The Xiticx go into swarm mode against the skelebots who are told to defend themselves, but not to go into all out attack unless they are attacked on mass. Their orders are almost the same as the orders Holmes gives his own men, but instead of jabbing and swatting, they are ordered to fire only on any Xiticix that attack them. This gets them into the Hivelands before the Xiticix decide they are a real threat and then the swarm strikes. The Skelebots have a pre-programmed battle plan that invloves a third fortifying themselves at the closest defendable position while the other two thirds divide into two (the front column and back column) and then move north and south respectively, trying to split the swarm into two and away from the third skelebot group that has dug in. The swarm gets a message from a Queen not to break into two and to attack the fortified group, they take heavy damage but then the other two skelebot groups turn around and close in on the swarm in a pincer. Eventually the entire skelebot army is destroyed but the Xiticix have taken heavy losses themselves, however they think they have won a major battle and go back into the hive.

During this time Holmes has many of his men march in hundreds of smaller groups along the southern edge of the hivelands, protected by the wall of smoke created by the forrest fires. Others, including all APCs and Robots, have dug themsleves into trenches far north of Tolkeen and hide there. Tolkeen know something is going on but grossly missunderestimate Holmes' force presuming the main attack was from the skelebots, trying to lure them north, which they know have been defeated.

The CS are aware of Holmes' existance but cannot communicate with them for fear of radio being intercepted, however high flying CS recon planes spot about 20% - 50% of his forces, they are fooled by the measures designed to hide them from Tolkeen recon.

CS drop supplies from the air for the troops (mainly food, water and ammo) as well as some paratroopers, Tolkeen know about the supplies but are on the lookout for SAMAS as they have been given intel that they are going to send armoured flying reinforcements, and don't expect paratroopers so assume it's all supplies.

The rest of the war goes fairly much according to the books except the final assault which is intiated by Holmes, Tolkeen knew he was there but never knew the extent of his ground forces, especially after being reinforced by paratroopers and weren't well prepared for an attack from the North. This is quickly followed up with an attack from the main CS force and finally the CS send Holmes SAMAS reinforcements that have flown around the area and come in from the east.

I would also put more of an emphasis on artillery and air power as reasons for CS victory.

[Dead Boy]

Here's a thought. Being one of the top commanders, in his mobile command center (maybe a Firestorm) he had several terror weapons the CS had dispensed for use at the generals' discresion. The one in Holmes' possession was a sizable shipment of long range missiles fitted with warheads made to disperse heavy-duty nerve gas.

When the Sorcers' Revenge Offensive went down he went north with a quickie escape plan to make use of the widely available environmental systems for his troops and vehicles. While on the move in full retreat he had his engineers jimmy-rig the warheads on the tops of select vehicles so they would release he gas when needed. When he and his Battle Group entered Xiticix territory he systematically started to trigger the warheads with the intent of making a cloud of death directly over his path that would kill any bugs that attempted to swarm over the fleeing army. Of course this only lasted so long given the limited quantities of the nerve gas, but running at full speed, Holmes and the bulk of his men made it through to the other side and to the safety of the forests west of Tolkeen.

Then came the next problem, that of feeding his surviving 304,000 men. With only enough packed rations and supplies to last them for another two weeks they needed another source to draw upon if they were going to stay under Tolkeen's radar long enough to effect repairs and tend to the wounded. Calling the CS was out of the question because that would tip the enemy to their continued existence and location. So the only way to make it work was to go deeper into the wilds to a cluster of dots on the map called the "Bakerton Community".

BC was an independent group of villages surrounding a central town for trading between them, working on an agrarian system for the most part. For the most part BC wanted nothing to do with the outside world and limited its exposure to it as much as possible, only dealing with others to obtain the things they could not produce themselves, like weapons and some technology. But beyond that they had no ties or lines of communications to anyone. To Holmes and his hungry troops, this looked like an ideal place to "visit".

One week after the Sorcers' Revenge Offensive, 120 miles to the west of Tolkeen, Holmes' Coalition marched in en mass and effectively took over the central town of the Bakerton Community area, much like the Nazis did in Poland without so much as a shot being fired. Of course the BC defense force scrambled to repel the invaders, but at most in the past all they'd faced was a few dozen monsters of robots. Staring down at an entire mechanized Division ... while several others secured locations around the town and other key locations ... it was too much for them to even contemplate. When the offer was made for them to surrender and submit came, the defenders actually made a sigh of relief. However that relief wouldn't last long. In the coming months the CS troops bled the community dry of every last resource it had to offer. And with BC being mostly peopled with D-bees and human sympathizers, they didn't feel the lest bit bad about it. By the end of the CS occupation, when Holmes decided to return and stage his troops to enact his plan of attack on Tolkeen, there was hardly anything left for the community to rebuild their crops, leaving them in destitute.

And the rest is history

[rat_bastard]

look, Holme's stunt was totally possible because of one simple thing:
General jerico Holmes is 1/4 xitixix on his mother's side of the family! The bugs just thought that he was just the local kid who made it big and was just cruising the old neighborhood with a few of his homeys (keep in mind that to an insect 400,000 is just a few of one's homeys) and thats just how Jerico Holmes rolls. You don't hear about it much because the CS doesent like Carapace.

[Vrykolas2k]

In my game, nearly all of Holmes' troops were eaten/ turned into sludge.
The CS still beat Tolkeen, but their losses were so heavy the victory was Pyrhic. The Dragon Kings, for the most part, stayed at Freehold, and it still stands.
I had to go with what the Xiticix book itself stated about what the territories were like, and the "bugs" themselves. I also had to go by dragon arrogance, as well as their power. And that of their followers.

[Dead Boy]

In my game, nearly all of Holmes' troops were eaten/ turned into sludge.
The CS still beat Tolkeen, but their losses were so heavy the victory was Pyrhic. The Dragon Kings, for the most part, stayed at Freehold, and it still stands.
I had to go with what the Xiticix book itself stated about what the territories were like, and the "bugs" themselves. I also had to go by dragon arrogance, as well as their power. And that of their followers.

*Fwoo* Thank god they did do that in the official books. That would have sucked for me.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

lets see reworking Holmes little walk

to be honest i can live with KevSim version of it

1. too much other stuff to factor in
2.Tolkeen screwed up twice giving Holmes the chance to get thru

[R Ditto]

Here's my ideas and feedback on this subject.


1: Holmes stopped his troops shortly after the Tolkeen forces bugged out, and didn't go running his troops on a marathon that would require a three day walking trip.

Holmes basically takes much less than an hour to get back outside of the Xiticix territory, because of not making a detour to see the freaking hive during the retreat... If it took 72 hours to walk out according to the book, then they would have been so far into bug territory that Holmes AND Tolkeen forces would have been wiped out... Reason for this thought? Even going a brisk 2-3 mph (human walking speed), they could have covered over a hundred miles in that 72 hours!
Considering the average soldier was probably running away on foot (15mph), and the limited speed of other ground units, Holmes' forces should only have gotten a few thousand feet into bug territory before the bugs arrived attacked in force and caused the Tolkeen forces to bug out.


2: Holmes does the usual thing listed in the book, with the following tactics added in.
Putting all Psi-Stalkers/Dog Boys into vehicles first.
Deploying Smoke Grenades, the bugs are bugs, and will be affected, not only to "blind" their already poor vision, but to also foul up their sense of smell, making it much harder for them to communicate.
Also, firing "silent" lasers (the ones with SDC settings) at trees/foliage to start a few fires to also create smoke.
Toss in fact one book mentions Holmes having studied the Xiticix in the past, before the war.

3: Due to poor vision and the CS forces being bunched together in tight formation, the bugs don't see 'many little intruders', they just see a 'really freakin big intruder', one that is not fighting them, and which seems WAY to big to be easily dealt with.

The "leader" type bugs, who are probably VERY aware of high tech weapons and such, decide not to attack to much since the "intruders" appear to be leaving without trying to attack the hive... as with bees, if you get close, they sting, you leave a certain area, they stop stinging... you get to close to hive, you got a problem... toss in smoke, and they suddenly don't care as much about stinging intruders.

4: Xiticix, being big killer bugs, act like bugs in some ways, like the whole reaction to smoke. Toss in the fact they are anything but totally stupid. The hive queen would likely know that with a force as big as it was, if she did have her bugs swarm, that she might need a really long time of laying eggs to replace the losses.

The queen likely knew the problems associated with taking on such a "large" possible intruder, especially one that was seeming eager to leave. If the queen was aware it was a whole lot of well armed people running around, she might have been more than hesitant to send out to many Xiticix, for the same reasons as above, being that such a battle could seriously weaken the hive's numbers.


5: Holmes makes it out in less than an hour, loosing roughly 100k people... or roughly 30 people being killed every second, on par with a "small" Xiticix swarm "escorting" an "intruder" out of their lands with a lot of prodding.

Also possible that some of Holmes' forces disobeyed orders and broke formation, or were otherwise unable to regroup in time or otherwise did stupid stuff (perhaps being heroic by "drawing off" the bugs attention)... Tolkeen forces in the distance see a whole lot of ticked off bugs swarming "something" and "something" firing back (lasers/beams and missiles flying up into the sky at the swarm), Tolkeen unaware that much of Holmes' forces are still intact and not at the location of the main swarming, and unaware Holmes' main forces are only being "harassed" and not "swarmed" by the bugs.

Another factor is the very likely chance that Lazlo's own forces, since they are supposed to be doing something about the bugs themselves, likely "occupied" some of the bugs in order to limit the amount of bugs that were harassing Holmes' forces.


Overall, things happen over a much shorter and bloodier period of time, and Holmes' tactics and past knowledge of Xiticix helps him get many of his troops out more or less in one piece, while those who disobeyed orders and broke formation had the unexpected side effect of making it appear to Tolkeen forces that the bugs swarmed and wiped out a large force... just ask anyone who is stuck in combat... in the heat of the moment, you will swear there are a whole lot more guns out their firing than there actually are.


With the majority of the Psi Stalkers and Dog Boys still alive, Holmes' forces would be able to avoid Tolkeen patrols, and he uses his own knowledge of the bugs, plus a few "poking" scout missions to locate the "exact" point at which Xiticix go from not caring about something to wanting to make it dead fast because it entered their territory.

Holmes then spreads out his forces over a wide area, keeping them very close to bug territory, close enough that the Tolkeen forces don't even know CS forces are around in force because they themselves will be keeping a good distance from the Xiticix territory, unaware that the 'buffer zone" they steer clear of is occupied by Holmes' forces.

Another tactic is no camp being larger than a platoon, maybe a company at the max. If Tolkeen scouts did discover a camp, they will find a "small" CS force that could be explained away as being there for assorted reasons, maybe as possible 'survivors' of Holmes' "annihilation at the hand of the bugs", but more likely as just CS forces that had slipped in after the SR. Assuming there might be a thousand or more square miles of terrain for Holmes' forces to hide, in, that would mean a nice capability to only have 300 people per square mile.

Overall, the Tolkeen forces would be looking for signs of "trouble", but they wouldn't be looking for (and perhaps even ingore) signs of there still being a large force... the bugs are killers after all... why would they not wipe out the entire force with millions upon millions of bugs? Why would they even stop attacking intruders at all, even if the intruders managed to get outside of bug territory?

[grandmaster z0b]

You know another thing I've often thought about is the CS hitting the Xiticix Hives with long range missiles from the South. Wouldn't this have sent the Xiticix into a huge swarm that would eventually decend onto Tolkeen itself. Even if Tolkeen could repel them (probably with Lazlo's help) they would be weakened and wouldn't be in a good state to defend themselves against the CS. The battle may even thin out the Xiticix and Lazlo's numbers a bit if the CS needs to defend themselves once they take Tolkeen.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You know another thing I've often thought about is the CS hitting the Xiticix Hives with long range missiles from the South. Wouldn't this have sent the Xiticix into a huge swarm that would eventually decend onto Tolkeen itself. Even if Tolkeen could repel them (probably with Lazlo's help) they would be weakened and wouldn't be in a good state to defend themselves against the CS. The battle may even thin out the Xiticix and Lazlo's numbers a bit if the CS needs to defend themselves once they take Tolkeen.

yeah tolkeen tried that but it dont work

[Brian Manning]

Besides the fact that I didn't have a problem with Coffin's version (until it was picked apart on these boards, so I just say it happened differently, but don't need to go into details), and the fact that I really dig zob, DB and R Ditto's versions, I still say that rat_bastard has the best "rewrite" of them all.

From now on, that's how it went down. That's how Holmes rolls.

[Phadeout]

Also on top of reworking Holmes' stunt (I havn't worked out all my own details yet, but have some good ideas), one other thing I changed to make Tolkeen fall in a way that makes sense (since it's not like they are weak) was to change the way Free Quebec acted. After siding with the Coalition against the magic user/demon attack, they don't all march home - instead FQ sends some troops against Tolkeen, catching Tolkeen off guard on a another front. Nothing like Glitter Boys nocking on your door...

They do this so that they can be on good terms with the CS by showing their willingness to side with them, be "free" but yet still good friends, and give a little pay back.

Since all this happens at one time, it's another reason for Tolkeen not to notice Holmes' approaching from the north, not when they hear that a bunch of Glitterboys just walked over the horizon....

[Nxla666]

My version (still a work in progress btw)...

Holmes army fakes a rout to the Hivelands.

He sends his aircraft (DHTs, SAMAS, etc.) ahead to secure a defensible location on the other side of the Duluth Hivelands, in the pocket formed by Duluth, Fargo, Crookston and Big Falls Hives, preferably with some kind of existing infrastructure (might steal that take over the town idea).

Upon entering the Hivelands Holmes sends his Skelebots on a march to the Hive with orders to stop for nothing, move as fast as possible and fire at every Xit they see. This has the effect of drawing most of the Xits away from Holmes column.

Holmes orders his troops to ONLY defend themselves from Xit aggression.

This does not last long as the Xiticix continue to attack, finally Holmes orders his troops to engage with lethal force.

The march to safety becomes a death march as tens of thousands of CS troops and Xiticix are killed.

Eventually the Xiticix break off the attack on Holmes when he exits the area claimed by the Duluth Hive.

Holmes 400,000 strong army has been reduced to a quarter of its original size. Most of his heavy armor is either destroyed or in need of major repairs.

After consolidating with the air units he begins immediate preparations for a long stay, having all farm boys start tending what ever farmlands the army seized. The DHTs and Skylifters begin ferrying supplies back and forth between Iron Heart and Holmes army, to maintain the illusion that Holmes army has been decimated radio silence is maintained, the only communication with CS High Command is via courier carrying encrypted (and easily destroyed discs) messages.

After the cease fire with Free Quebec about 30% of those troops are sent to reinforce Holmes troops.

Tolkeen knows there are still CS troops to the north but grossly under estimates how many, reducing their northern defenses to reinforce the east and south.

The idea of FQ helping in the final assault works to, so consider that idea borrowed.

[grandmaster z0b]

You know another thing I've often thought about is the CS hitting the Xiticix Hives with long range missiles from the South. Wouldn't this have sent the Xiticix into a huge swarm that would eventually decend onto Tolkeen itself. Even if Tolkeen could repel them (probably with Lazlo's help) they would be weakened and wouldn't be in a good state to defend themselves against the CS. The battle may even thin out the Xiticix and Lazlo's numbers a bit if the CS needs to defend themselves once they take Tolkeen.

yeah tolkeen tried that but it dont work

Cool, which book is that in?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You know another thing I've often thought about is the CS hitting the Xiticix Hives with long range missiles from the South. Wouldn't this have sent the Xiticix into a huge swarm that would eventually decend onto Tolkeen itself. Even if Tolkeen could repel them (probably with Lazlo's help) they would be weakened and wouldn't be in a good state to defend themselves against the CS. The battle may even thin out the Xiticix and Lazlo's numbers a bit if the CS needs to defend themselves once they take Tolkeen.

yeah tolkeen tried that but it dont work

Cool, which book is that in?

its was one of tolkeen plans for chi-town and oddly it was in SOT 4 under HLS but it was talked about in the other sot books

[grandmaster z0b]

You know another thing I've often thought about is the CS hitting the Xiticix Hives with long range missiles from the South. Wouldn't this have sent the Xiticix into a huge swarm that would eventually decend onto Tolkeen itself. Even if Tolkeen could repel them (probably with Lazlo's help) they would be weakened and wouldn't be in a good state to defend themselves against the CS. The battle may even thin out the Xiticix and Lazlo's numbers a bit if the CS needs to defend themselves once they take Tolkeen.

yeah tolkeen tried that but it dont work

Cool, which book is that in?

its was one of tolkeen plans for chi-town and oddly it was in SOT 4 under HLS but it was talked about in the other sot books

Hang on why would Tolkeen try to get the Xiticix to swarm and attack themselves? I don't have SoT4.

[Nxla666]

You know another thing I've often thought about is the CS hitting the Xiticix Hives with long range missiles from the South. Wouldn't this have sent the Xiticix into a huge swarm that would eventually decend onto Tolkeen itself. Even if Tolkeen could repel them (probably with Lazlo's help) they would be weakened and wouldn't be in a good state to defend themselves against the CS. The battle may even thin out the Xiticix and Lazlo's numbers a bit if the CS needs to defend themselves once they take Tolkeen.

yeah tolkeen tried that but it dont work

Cool, which book is that in?

its was one of tolkeen plans for chi-town and oddly it was in SOT 4 under HLS but it was talked about in the other sot books

Hang on why would Tolkeen try to get the Xiticix to swarm and attack themselves? I don't have SoT4.

LOL, no they wanted the Xits to attack Chi-town.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Besides the fact that I didn't have a problem with Coffin's version (until it was picked apart on these boards, so I just say it happened differently, but don't need to go into details), and the fact that I really dig zob, DB and R Ditto's versions, I still say that rat_bastard has the best "rewrite" of them all.

From now on, that's how it went down. That's how Holmes rolls.

Actually, Bill Coffin's name isn't on either book 3 or 5 where the attack and resolution are detailed. Some of his writing wasn't stellar for the SoT, but we can't blame him for this.

I would add more to this, but my version is basically like z0b's. More strategy, less "hope this one thing works." I still find an attacking swarm in the tens of thousands, lasting 72 hours before 60% broke off, and only resulting in 25% casualties a bit unbelievable (especially by the rules). I mean, would defending yourself against a pack of savage, attacking pitbulls with a pillow seem reasonable? That's how I look at the defensive swats and pokes against an MDC creature...pointless.

What I think would have been best is spending more than a page or two describing this important part of the Siege on Tolkeen!

SOT 1, and SOT 2 have written by KS and BC
SOT 3 , SOT 4 and SOT 6 written by KS , additional text & ideas by BC
SOT 5 written by KS and no mention of BC

post 1

but the poking and swat werent made by little sdc creature but by the the heavy machines , like enforcers, hellraisers, skull smashers, abolshiers and terror troopers