Cosmographer: Mapping the Three Galaxies

[Carl Gleba]

For those of you who might be interested in a tool to help map out the Three Galaxies check out Cosmographer. If any of you have Campaign Cartographer, its an add on to it. Looks cool, I might just have to get it.

Carl

[Syndicate]

Looks promising....thanks Carl...(I bet he gets that alot... )

[Daikuma]

So does this mean that you have a map of the three galaxies, Carl? Is it tattooed on your scalp like yellowbeard's son, or can we maybe just get a copy of the map that should have been in some book somewhere years ago so that I did not have to spend hours of storyline time drawing maps?

Huh? Huh? Huh?

Please Carl, Don't be so cruel!

-Daikuma

[Braden Campbell]

The Three Galaxies

[Carl Gleba]

Sorry Daikuma, I don't have a map. I did draw up some of the solar systems in Three Galaxies, but that's it. Who knows I might do a map in the next 3G book. We'll see

Nice job Braden

Carl

[Carl Gleba]

For those of you who might be interested in a tool to help map out the Three Galaxies check out Cosmographer. If any of you have Campaign Cartographer, its an add on to it. Looks cool, I might just have to get it.

Carl

I personally like AstroSynthesis (http://www.nbos.com). It's not an add-on (though you can tie it into Fractal Mapper if you want) and it's a whole lot cheaper (you don't have to buy CC2 and Cosmographer).

I've only played around (haven't had to do any significant mapping), but the generators are really nice. The interface takes getting used to, but then again, so did CC2.

Thanks for point that out MrThoth. That is some awesome software. I may have to consider buying it. Now if only someone could add a few more hours to the day to give me the time to play around with it.

Carl

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Just keep in mind, when creating galactic maps, that Outer Space is three-dimensional, not linear like every Science-Fiction Series ever made portrays it.

~ Josh

[Daikuma]

Not a bad idea. Now we just need to plug in the data that is provided in all of the Palladium space books, and it starts to be practical to use in PB space setting games.

I am going to check astrosynthesis out (looks really good) but it would be nice to see some sort of map that reflects the cannon material. I tried designing one a few years back, but I was never satisfied with it, and now I just don't have the time to be estimating the travel time and distance of every trip.

Smart gamers make details a lot more important, cause they will take your estimates as facts.

-Daikuma

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

You are correct sir! I don't know about Cosmographer, but AstroSynthesis actually maps on 3 axes. You can print 2-D maps as reference sheets and numbers are shown next to each system as to how far above or below the galactic center the system is.

They've got a whole mess of screen shots on their site that gives a pretty decent preview (and you can get a demo, fully-functional I think, from the site as well).

[a la Peter Griffin]That is awesome![/a la Peter Griffin]

~ Josh

[Alpha 11]

Nice. Though I would not mind see a little more details on were the boards are accually(sp?) are.

[Daikuma]

Well, tried to generate galaxy map 90,000 light years long by 2,000 light years thick in Astrosynthesis today, and it bogged the computer for two hours (and I am on a Pentium 4 2.53 ghz with a gig of RAM).

Results not bad but the system cannot handle displaying the data. Seems like the database and number crunching the program require are so intense that the wire frame style drawing moves like my old Commodore 64.

This is just the trail version though, so I may be not seeing what the full version can do. If I can get it up to snuff, I think the program allows me to custom build the canonical star systems and nebulae wherever the text from the books indicates they are.

So on that note, "Mr. Data, meet me in stellar cartography"

If you have ever drawn a map of the three galaxies, and have a digital copy, please post it here so I can start to integrate the player information into a greater whole. If PB won't build it, lets do it as a group. Please give your estimates on where known planets are (galactic compass heading, above or below the plane of the elliptic, distance and heading to other known worlds, even your custom worlds, systems), and others if you would like to add something detailed and have enough data to get a credit in it if I can get it working.

If it is a sketch on notebook paper or a cocktail napkin, we want to see it!

As I compile the maps, data packets for whichever cartography program works best, I'll post them somewhere to make them available to everyone. (of course I'll not step on any copyright toes folks, just something to make your GM hours easier!)

By the way, Carl, CJ, Kevin, if you would like to hand down any data you have that might help this along for the players, feel free. We'd love to have someone throw us a bone on where we are in the universe, si si?

Thanks for all of your help!

-Daikuma

[Esckey]

Here's my rough map. Keep in mind I only have the main PW book to go by

http://img305.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ttgmap5xp.jpg

[Daikuma]

Here's my rough map. Keep in mind I only have the main PW book to go by

http://img305.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ttgmap5xp.jpg

That's a great start Esckey! Thanks!

[Esckey]

Ya its a bit messy, hate the paint program. I'm fleshing it out more right now

[Aramanthus]

I think it looks very promising. I'm looking froward to seeing your next step in the mapping of the 3Gs.

[Daikuma]

The program seems to be fairly top notch, though its memory management capacity is somewhat lacking (when I tried to use it to map a galaxy, or even something more than a 30-40 parsecs square, it dragged the pc down top a crawl - keeps the entire map in the active memory). It looks like it is going to need some sort of adjustable caching added to the program if it is going to be practical.
My PC is Pentium 4 2.53 with a gig of good RAM running in dual channel. Video card is 128 mb ATI with OpenGL, so no issues there.

For accuracy and creativity, the program is great. It needs some more controls (like if I build a galaxy, I'd like to see the capacity to grab regions of stars to edit their characteristics in bulk, like the radiant centers of the universe, etc.) Would also be good to adjust the settings of the spacce you are trying to fill, the type of galaxy you are trying to construct, etc.

Anyone else having fun with this program?

-Daikuma

[Esckey]

Nope it would drag my computer down to a crawl

http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ttgmap38kp.jpg
Heres one I did from a side on veiw of the corkscrew

[Aramanthus]

That is a pretty cool site!

[devillin]

Here's the one I did a couple of months ago:

http://www.geocities.com/linwood3rd/3galaxy1.jpg

[Daikuma]

Here's the one I did a couple of months ago:

http://www.geocities.com/linwood3rd/3galaxy1.jpg

Love the picture, but is the corkscrew galaxy a spiral galaxy that is 90,000 light years long and 2000 light years wide or 2000 light years deep (on the z axis, if you will?)

If it is really built like a corkscrew, then 90k ly by 2k ly is a long thin (tube or rod shaped) galaxy. IF they meant a spiral galaxy, 2k ly deep, then it would be like a large circular saw blade, with a 45k ly radius, and 2k ly deep (or thick).

I don't remeber if these were all spiral galaxies or not. Ideas? References?

-Daikuma

[Aramanthus]

The pic looks good none the less!

[devillin]

Here's the one I did a couple of months ago:

http://www.geocities.com/linwood3rd/3galaxy1.jpg

Love the picture, but is the corkscrew galaxy a spiral galaxy that is 90,000 light years long and 2000 light years wide or 2000 light years deep (on the z axis, if you will?)

2000 lyrs thick on the z-axis. PW pg50. I forgot where it was stated, but they are supposed to be tilted towards each other.

[Daikuma]

Here's the one I did a couple of months ago:

http://www.geocities.com/linwood3rd/3galaxy1.jpg

Love the picture, but is the corkscrew galaxy a spiral galaxy that is 90,000 light years long and 2000 light years wide or 2000 light years deep (on the z axis, if you will?)

2000 lyrs thick on the z-axis. PW pg50. I forgot where it was stated, but they are supposed to be tilted towards each other.

But are they all spiral galaxies (there are also elliptical, irregular, barred spiral - all as defined by Hubble). This http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit4/types.html defines the differences.

I may be remembering wrong, but I could swear there was something stating that they were not all standard spirals.

-Daikuma

[devillin]

2000 lyrs thick on the z-axis. PW pg50. I forgot where it was stated, but they are supposed to be tilted towards each other.

I may be remembering wrong, but I could swear there was something stating that they were not all standard spirals.

I remember that Corkscrew was supposed to be a lazily rotating gaseous galaxy, while Thundercloud had a much more rapid rotation, which made the arms a lot more pronounced. Thundercloud also had that blackhole region in its center. There wasn't really a description made of Anvil.

[Braden Campbell]

The Anvil is "bulls-eye shaped".

But to explain the presence of the Threshold, I take that to mean the Anvil is a globular cluster with the core being very small and seperated from the halo region.

Picture a golf ball suspended inside a basketball: the major power blocs live on the surface of the basketball, the golf ball is the Core, and the empty space inbetween is the Threshold (about 75%).

[Greyaxe]

The Anvil is "bulls-eye shaped".

But to explain the presence of the Threshold, I take that to mean the Anvil is a globular cluster with the core being very small and seperated from the halo region.

Picture a golf ball suspended inside a basketball: the major power blocs live on the surface of the basketball, the golf ball is the Core, and the empty space inbetween is the Threshold (about 75%).

It is important to note that ships "can't" cross the threshold. You have travel arround the outside layer of the halo making the Anvil much bigger, from a logistics perspective, than it actually is.

[Daikuma]

The Anvil is "bulls-eye shaped".

But to explain the presence of the Threshold, I take that to mean the Anvil is a globular cluster with the core being very small and seperated from the halo region.

Picture a golf ball suspended inside a basketball: the major power blocs live on the surface of the basketball, the golf ball is the Core, and the empty space inbetween is the Threshold (about 75%).

Ok, so this would imply that the Anvil is either a really REALLY big globular cluster (because those are just parts of galaxies, not galaxies unto themselves) or a full on Elliptical Galaxy, mimicking the form of a globular cluster

Corkscrew was supposed to be a lazily rotating gaseous galaxy, while Thundercloud had a much more rapid rotation, which made the arms a lot more pronounced. Thundercloud also had that blackhole region in its center.

Corkscrew, then, can be defined as a Lenticular (lens-shaped) Galaxy, or spiral galaxies without spiral structure, i.e. smooth disk galaxies, where the spin has slowed and the arms have become "hazy"

Thundercloud is a more vibrant, young phase "standard" spiral galaxy, with pronounced arms. A higher concentration of young stellar matter, like nebulae and the like, and the black hole region in the center goes to the formative nature of the galaxy, the high central gravity going to the formation of new stars.

Your votes folks? Further thoughts?

-Daikuma

[Braden Campbell]

I always thought the Corkscrew was an irregular galaxy; shaped roughly in a T, with a long, twisting tail (that's mostly unexplored)... like a corkscrew.

You can kind of see it behind the flying Cosmo Knight in the main PW book.

[glitterboy2098]

The Anvil is "bulls-eye shaped".

But to explain the presence of the Threshold, I take that to mean the Anvil is a globular cluster with the core being very small and seperated from the halo region.

or a Ring galaxy like AM 0644-741, or IGSGL 186,927

from astronomy picture of the day: (from the pic of AM 0644-741)

Explanation: How could a galaxy become shaped like a ring? The rim of the blue galaxy pictured on the right is an immense ring-like structure 150,000 light years in diameter composed of newly formed, extremely bright, massive stars. That galaxy, AM 0644-741, is known as a ring galaxy and was caused by an immense galaxy collision. When galaxies collide, they pass through each other -- their individual stars rarely come into contact. The ring-like shape is the result of the gravitational disruption caused by an entire small intruder galaxy passing through a large one. When this happens, interstellar gas and dust become condensed, causing a wave of star formation to move out from the impact point like a ripple across the surface of a pond. The intruder galaxy has since moved out of the frame taken by the Hubble Space Telescope and released to commemorate the anniversary of Hubble's launch in 1990. Ring galaxy AM 0644-741 lies about 300 million light years away.

if i had to pick an existing galaxy to provide example of the Anvil: i'd pick Hoag's Object




of course, there is also this really neat pic, of a trio of galaxies. one elliptical, and two spirals.

[Daikuma]

The Anvil is "bulls-eye shaped".

But to explain the presence of the Threshold, I take that to mean the Anvil is a globular cluster with the core being very small and seperated from the halo region.

or a Ring galaxy like AM 0644-741, or IGSGL 186,927

from astronomy picture of the day: (from the pic of AM 0644-741)

Explanation: How could a galaxy become shaped like a ring? The rim of the blue galaxy pictured on the right is an immense ring-like structure 150,000 light years in diameter composed of newly formed, extremely bright, massive stars. That galaxy, AM 0644-741, is known as a ring galaxy and was caused by an immense galaxy collision. When galaxies collide, they pass through each other -- their individual stars rarely come into contact. The ring-like shape is the result of the gravitational disruption caused by an entire small intruder galaxy passing through a large one. When this happens, interstellar gas and dust become condensed, causing a wave of star formation to move out from the impact point like a ripple across the surface of a pond. The intruder galaxy has since moved out of the frame taken by the Hubble Space Telescope and released to commemorate the anniversary of Hubble's launch in 1990. Ring galaxy AM 0644-741 lies about 300 million light years away.

if i had to pick an existing galaxy to provide example of the Anvil: i'd pick Hoag's Object

of course, there is also this really neat pic, of a trio of galaxies. one elliptical, and two spirals.

Ok, so if the Anvil is like Hoag's, then it is more like a ring around a core than your earlier basketball & golf ball description. I can go with that, especially as the issues of turbulence and fields in the in-between space make for a great "cause" for the threshhold.

Now, if we all are in agreement that the Thundercloud is a neat Spiral (with black hole storms in the center) the Corkscrew is a Barred Spiral, now moving phase into a Lenticular Galaxy, and the Anvil is a Ring Galaxy, like Hoag's, we are on to placement of the galaxies, in 3D relation to one another.

Thoughts?

-Daikuma

[Braden Campbell]

My only problem with having the Anvil look like a ring, and this is from a game design point-of-view, is that since you can't cross the Threshold, its bloody impossible to travel from one side to the other. To do so , you have to cut through everyone else's territory... Everywhere you go, you have to take the long way.

but a sphere-shape gives you lots more maneuvering room.

[glitterboy2098]

My only problem with having the Anvil look like a ring, and this is from a game design point-of-view, is that since you can't cross the Threshold, its bloody impossible to travel from one side to the other. To do so , you have to cut through everyone else's territory... Everywhere you go, you have to take the long way.

but a sphere-shape gives you lots more maneuvering room.

not really. you can pop up over the plane of the galaxy with the ring. your just really isolated should you have trouble.

with the sphere, your cutting through the territories of other groups regardless of which direction you go. your bordered on 4 sides with territories, one side with the threshhold, and one with the intergalactic void. thats the true long way round.

[Aramanthus]

I agree about going above or below the galactic plane to set a course without interferring with someone's territory.

[Daikuma]

My only problem with having the Anvil look like a ring, and this is from a game design point-of-view, is that since you can't cross the Threshold, its bloody impossible to travel from one side to the other. To do so , you have to cut through everyone else's territory... Everywhere you go, you have to take the long way.

but a sphere-shape gives you lots more maneuvering room.

not really. you can pop up over the plane of the galaxy with the ring. your just really isolated should you have trouble.

with the sphere, your cutting through the territories of other groups regardless of which direction you go. your bordered on 4 sides with territories, one side with the threshhold, and one with the intergalactic void. thats the true long way round.

Either way, unless you are moving a fleet somewhere, you are talking about moving a craft through an area a thousand light years thick, you can pretty much hide a lot of things in space rubble. Then you also have areas not in the biosphere that are also not in past the Threshold, and in those you may be able to find passage that is "differently safe". For example, if the TGE is looking to blast you out of space, perhaps the non-oxygen breathers may not be as bad as blasting, si si?

Besides, in the case of the anvil, they do specify that a lot of constant strife and war is going on in the region, so figure that it has a lot to do with that feeling of being hemmed in on all sides.

Works for creating war in real life, so why not in the game, neh?

-Daikuma

[glitterboy2098]

ring galaxies have another real estate issue. because their ring shape is the result of a massive wave of star formation, they won't have many habitable worlds, if many worlds at all. younger stars tend to be too hot to make good homes, and star forming regions have lots of turbulance, radiation, and the like making it hostile to most life.

so you could have lots of war and strife because there isn't enough resources to go around.

[RainOfSteel]

Just keep in mind, when creating galactic maps, that Outer Space is three-dimensional, not linear like every Science-Fiction Series ever made portrays it.

The majority of Science Fiction series do portray space as existing in three dimensions.

I see this in novels from the Lensman series to the Honor Harrington series.

[Esckey]

Well the sun orbits at somewhere around 220km/s, and 20km/s relative to other stars