Using Ninjas & SS with Heroes Unlimited

jolt · Unread post by **jolt** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:51 pm

What's the best way to incorporate the myriad of martial arts styles from Ninjas and SS's with HU? Do you just replace the generic martial arts for any non-exclusive style? Compared to a super, the Martial Art's OCC's seem a tad week (just by glancing at them) compared to a super. What's the best way to make a super martial artist? Thanks.

jolt

ZEN · Unread post by **ZEN** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:36 pm

N&SS plus HU is a brilliant combination.. Gizmoteer heroes with super powers are fantastic to play, and now with the expanded options for power categories in PU1&2, you can make some very well rounded characters.
8-)

Nekira Sudacne · Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:43 pm

I ususally just have N&SS Martial arts cost 4 skills, or one skill program. use the martial arts normally.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:17 am

I am pretty liberal and generous in terms of HtH skills for HU characters.
I make a lot of use ot the additional HtH styles from Rifts: Japan (Aikido, Karate, etc).
I find that restricting the use of N&SS and Mystic China styles to those respective OCCs gives those characters an edge against HU characters: A DMA with Chi Powers (and two martial arts that give him Chi powers) is suddenly less weak when compared to (similar) HU characters.
The provisio being that while everyone has Chi, only Chi masters can defend against it or use it, and I only allow the OCCs from N&SS to have such abilities.
This keeps players from deciding the the Ancient Master "should" have Chi skills: Well, Maybe he should, but since he doesn't, make a DMA if that's what you want.

jolt · Unread post by **jolt** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:24 pm

Sentinel: Those are good points though it still seems to me that only by taking Chi based martial arts does the character keep up with the HU counterparts (and even then only the dedicated).

However, I'm not really concerned with making the two martial arts OCC's fit into HU as I am in allowing HU supers to learn "named" martial arts styles.

Questions:

1) The super has only HtH Basic. Would you allow him to take a "named" MA? If so, what would that super have to sacrifice to get it? What about if the MA wanted was Exclusive?

2) Same as #1 but the super has HtH Expert.

3) Same as #1 but the super has HtH Martial Arts.

4) Same as #1 but the super has HtH Ninjitsu (as presented in HU2).

5) I've made a Japanese super-soldier. I want him to know Sumo (an exclusive MA (according to N&S anyway)). What would you make this character have to do to learn Sumo?

Thanks.

jolt

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:44 pm

Depending on what the powers of the super were, they can also be challenged with Atemi, Martial Arts Techniques like Kiaijutsu and Tamashiwara, and the martial artist will always benefit from selecting Body Hardenings, and let's not forget the value of Zenjoriki powers.

Questions:

1) The super has only HtH Basic. Would you allow him to take a "named" MA? If so, what would that super have to sacrifice to get it? What about if the MA wanted was Exclusive?

I would (provisionally) allow the super to trade up to HtH Martial Arts as per usual, and then trade in skills/skill programs for a non-exclusive martial art.
I wouldn't grant an Exclusive style.

2) Same as #1 but the super has HtH Expert.

Pretty much the same.

3) Same as #1 but the super has HtH Martial Arts.

In this case, the super doesn't have to trade anything to get HtH Martial Arts, just trade in skills to get a non-exclusive style.

4) Same as #1 but the super has HtH Ninjitsu (as presented in HU2).

I don't recall HtH Ninjutsu anywhere in HUII.
If the player wanted HtH: Ninjutsu from Rifts Japan, I would allow him to trade away skills as per usual.

5) I've made a Japanese super-soldier. I want him to know Sumo (an exclusive MA (according to N&S anyway)). What would you make this character have to do to learn Sumo?

In this specific instance, I would probably feel like making an exception to the rule, because Sumo isn't as over the top as other styles, and it sounds like a theme is being built.

Depending on what else the player were asking for, Off-The-Top-Of-My-Head, I'd allow him to select Sumo, three Super Soldier enhancements, and build him as normal otherwise.

I might also consider allowing the player to instead make a Titan Juicer, and select HtH Jujutsu instead of Sumo.

Alternately, the character could be built as per usual, and then treat the Super-Soldier process like a Gene-Splicer treatment (if you have Rifts source material on Gene-Spicers, they can make wonderful villains).

jolt · Unread post by **jolt** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:00 pm

Thanks Sentinel, that helps a lot.

What other books (apart from Mystic China) include MA styles in them?

I bought Rifts when it first came out and collected through WB 11 or 12 but not having anyone to play with at the time and having limited space I ended up selling it all (except for Coalition Navy which somehow got seperated from the rest and is still sitting on my shelf). Too many sourcebooks becomes information overload after awhile anyway; especially if you don't play regularly. I now wish I had kept the first two Conversion titles, Mystic China and Rifts: Japan though. :frust:

Currently, the only books I have are HU2, both powers books, TMNT and N&S (oh yeah, and Rifts: Coalition Navy :-?

).

jolt

[EDIT] I've seen some posts about the combat system having been changed at some point. Is HU2's combat system the "current" one?

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:51 pm

SkyStreak wrote:I believe there is an official rule for this in one of the Century Station books.

I'm 90% sure it is under the character Chambara, I just can;t remember which book he is in.

Chambara is in Gramercy Island, IIRC.
He uses the old HU Revised rule of the Physical Training charcter trading skills for a formal Martial Art.
That rule however does not take into account that the Physical Tarining character will automatically get either EXT or Superhuman PS, as well as bonuses far greater than HU Revised granted.

What other books (apart from Mystic China) include MA styles in them?

Well, besides Rifts Japan (repinted in Rifts GMG) and HtH Commando (from Coalition War Campaign), there are the fighting arts of China, found in Rifts: China II, and Talitsu in Skraypers.

In PFRPG, there is HtH Gladiator, but that probably isn't detailed enough for your taste: It certainly wasn't for mine.

There is a HtH style for Dragons in Rifts: Ultimate Edition.

And, TMNT has a different version of HtH Ninjutsu.

I've seen some posts about the combat system having been changed at some point. Is HU2's combat system the "current" one?

For the most part.
Truthfully, I make a subjective ruling about any variance in the rules, and N&SS is usually favored over any other sourcebook in terms of HtH combat.
While I used the updated damage table, I prefer N&SS and Mystic China for use of Joint Locks, Combination Attacks, and Special Attacks such as Flying Reverse Turning Kick, and One Fingertip Strikes.

jolt · Unread post by **jolt** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:10 pm

The funny thing about being away from a game/system for awhile is that you lose all track of what many of the acronyms mean.

What is Rifts GMG ? Still in print?

jolt

PS: After a lengthy search I'm assuming this refers to the Game Masters Guide. Is that correct?

I've seen some comments during my search about getting only the original edition of the first conversion book. What's the problem there?

If you just wanted to get the basic Rifts setting (again), what would you buy? Please don't use acronyms :wink:

jolt

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:55 pm

jolt wrote:The funny thing about being away from a game/system for awhile is that you lose all track of what many of the acronyms mean.

What is Rifts GMG ? Still in print?

Game Masters Guide, and yes, still in print.

jolt

PS: After a lengthy search I'm assuming this refers to the Game Masters Guide. Is that correct?

I've seen some comments during my search about getting only the original edition of the first conversion book. What's the problem there?

There were some revisions between the two books. Actually, there are a goodly number changes.

If you just wanted to get the basic Rifts setting (again), what would you buy? Please don't use acronyms

But, they save wear and tear on my typing fingers.

jolt

Rifts: Ultimate Edition (R:UE), along with Game Masters Guide, Book of Magic, and Bionics Sourcebook would set you up to run for a long time without needing world books.
Personally, for Worldbooks, I like Vampire Kingdoms, Atlantis, Underseas, Japan, Juicer Uprisings, New West, Spirit West, Canada, Splynn Dimensional Market, and the Sourcebooks, 1-4 ( I mostly use 1, 2, & 3).
Also, Mercenaries is a very useful book.

jolt · Unread post by **jolt** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:20 am

Sentinel wrote:4) Same as #1 but the super has HtH Ninjitsu (as presented in HU2).

I don't recall HtH Ninjutsu anywhere in HUII.
If the player wanted HtH: Ninjutsu from Rifts Japan, I would allow him to trade away skills as per usual.

er...that's because I meant HtH Assassin.

Sentinel wrote: I've seen some comments during my search about getting only the original edition of the first conversion book. What's the problem there?

There were some revisions between the two books. Actually, there are a goodly number changes.

Is the original better?

jolt

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:26 am

When it comes to the Ancient Master, I tend to leave the character as is, and try to encourage the use of Martial Arts OCCs from Mystic China or N&SS.
The Ancient Master gets one of the broadest varieties of combat maneuvers (punches, kicks, holds, flip/throws), the special abilities (which are comparable to Martial Arts powers in themselves), and a minor power.
When I think of the Ancient Master however, I don't think of the "generic" Kung-Fu hotshot: I look at the character as the sort who actually trains martial arts characters. My experience has been that players take the AM in order to create the most potent fighter they can (whether or not it's appropriate for the character). They aren't looking at the character as an actual aged master, they are looking for a young spit-fire dynamo with more moves and powers.

To make a parallel in order to put it into perspective, Stick would be the Ancient Master, and Elektra would be the Worldly or Dedicated MArtial Artist (for those of you familiar with Daredevil). Another example would be Remo Williams, the student, and Chiun, who would the Ancient Master.

I generally look at the Ancient Master as no younger than 50 or 60 (although they may certainly appear to be younger). Players who want a younger character I encourage to make a different Martial Arts OCC, of which there are several choices.

jolt · Unread post by **jolt** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:10 am

What do you think of the Ancient Master conversion listed in the back of N&S?

Do you think non-Chi based martial artists are capable enough in HU2?

jolt

jolt · Unread post by **jolt** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:10 am

double post. sorry.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:14 am

jolt wrote:What do you think of the Ancient Master conversion listed in the back of N&S?

jolt

I miss the original conversion from the original edition of N&S, too bad cut and paste errors really messed up the revised edition version.

jolt · Unread post by **jolt** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:19 am

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
jolt wrote:What do you think of the Ancient Master conversion listed in the back of N&S?

jolt
I miss the original conversion from the original edition of N&S, too bad cut and paste errors really messed up the revised edition version.

My N&S is revised Fourth printing. The conversion seems clear enough. Was something left out?

jolt

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:22 am

jolt wrote:
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
jolt wrote:What do you think of the Ancient Master conversion listed in the back of N&S?

jolt
I miss the original conversion from the original edition of N&S, too bad cut and paste errors really messed up the revised edition version.

My N&S is revised Fourth printing. The explanation seems clear enough. Was something left out?

jolt

In the revised edition, the Ancient Master can select two styles or one exclusive style, as per the revised edition DMA, however, note 3 was left untouched from the original edition of N&S and states, "The two secondary martial art forms begin at third level proficiency." Despite the fact that they no longer get two secondary forms.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:57 am

jolt wrote:What do you think of the Ancient Master conversion listed in the back of N&S?

Since that version of the AM was for Revised HU, I'd say it should be updated and revised for HUII.
In general, I like the AM, but I feel they are often taken out of their proper context.

Do you think non-Chi based martial artists are capable enough in HU2?

jolt

Sure. A lot depends on the power level of the campaign and other characters.
The right selection of powers and martial arts styles can make for a very effective character.
Restricting Chi however, means that you will see every martial artist that can choosing Tamashiwara and Zanshin.

I've enjoyed great success in the past with Worldly Martial Artists in HU who had Fu Chiao Pai (Tiger Claw), Zanji Shinjenken Ryu, Tang Su, Sankukai Karate, Isshin Ryu Karate, and Shaolin in particular.

jolt · Unread post by **jolt** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:18 pm

I don't have HU revised so I don't know what the differences are.

Is the Ancient Master conversion from N&S too weak? Should he have that third MA style? If you were to update him, how would you do it?

Thanks for answering my plethora of questions.

jolt

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:28 pm

jolt wrote:I don't have HU revised so I don't know what the differences are.

Is the Ancient Master conversion from N&S too weak? Should he have that third MA style? If you were to update him, how would you do it?

See http://www.geocities.com/kuseru/revisederrata.htm for how I handle all that fun stuff.

Thanks for answering my plethora of questions.

jolt

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:34 pm

Truthfully, I'd take the Ancient Master with two martial arts (One Exclusive and one non-exclusive, or two non-exclusive styles), and swap those completely for the special powers and other bonuses of the AM, if I were to go that route.
Smart selection of styles will provide martial arts powers far and away to compensate (you could end up with four-to-five powers, possibly six or seven depending on which ones you select), and this will make up for the loss of the special abilities.
I'd keep the extra 2 attacks per melee, and set the martial arts styles to whatever Level Of Experience the Ancient Master is set at to start.

That could be a lot of bonuses.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:48 pm

Sentinel wrote:Truthfully, I'd take the Ancient Master with two martial arts (One Exclusive and one non-exclusive, or two non-exclusive styles), and swap those completely for the special powers and other bonuses of the AM, if I were to go that route.

Hmm...that gives me an interesting idea that I hadn't previously considered.

Revised "Revised edition" AM, DMA, and WMA martial arts selection:

Dedicated Martial Artist: Choose one Primary (Exclusive) style and one Secondary style, or three (3) Secondary styles, or One Exclusive style and the Special Martial Arts Bonus previously part of the WMA O.C.C., or two Secondary styles and the Special Martial Arts Bonus previously part of the WMA O.C.C.

Worldly Martial Artist: Choose one Exclusive style or two non-Exclusive martial art styles. (Disregard the physical skill selections and Special Martial Arts Bonus.)

Ancient Master: Choose one Primary (Exclusive) style (at 10th level) and one Secondary style (at 3rd level)...the character does not have any of the bonuses, fighting techniques or Special powers noted in HU2.
OR Choose three (3) Secondary styles (each at 3rd level)...the character does not have any of the bonuses, fighting techniques or Special powers noted in HU2.
OR Choose One Exclusive style (at 10th level) and the Special Martial Arts Bonus previously part of the WMA O.C.C. (at 10th level, in other words, they get the other two martial art powers)...the character does not have any of the bonuses, fighting techniques or Special powers noted in HU2.
OR Choose Two Secondary styles (each at 3rd level) and the Special Martial Arts Bonus previously part of the WMA O.C.C. (at 10th level, in other words, they get the other two martial art powers)...the character does not have any of the bonuses, fighting techniques or Special powers noted in HU2.
OR Choose One Exclusive style (at 10th level) and the Special Abilities of the Master from HU2 (the five powers listed under step 3).
OR Two Secondary Styles (each at 3rd level) and the Special Abilities of the Master from HU2 (the five powers listed under step 3).

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:30 pm

That's our Kuseru:
He can kill with anything.
Choices, kindness, these are the weapons of the ninja.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:02 am

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
Sentinel wrote:Truthfully, I'd take the Ancient Master with two martial arts (One Exclusive and one non-exclusive, or two non-exclusive styles), and swap those completely for the special powers and other bonuses of the AM, if I were to go that route.
Hmm...that gives me an interesting idea that I hadn't previously considered.

Revised "Revised edition" AM, DMA, and WMA martial arts selection:

Dedicated Martial Artist: Choose one Primary (Exclusive) style and one Secondary style, or three (3) Secondary styles, or One Exclusive style and the Special Martial Arts Bonus previously part of the WMA O.C.C., or two Secondary styles and the Special Martial Arts Bonus previously part of the WMA O.C.C.

Worldly Martial Artist: Choose one Exclusive style or two non-Exclusive martial art styles. (Disregard the physical skill selections and Special Martial Arts Bonus.)

Ancient Master: Choose one Primary (Exclusive) style (at 10th level) and one Secondary style (at 3rd level)...the character does not have any of the bonuses, fighting techniques or Special powers noted in HU2.
OR Choose three (3) Secondary styles (each at 3rd level)...the character does not have any of the bonuses, fighting techniques or Special powers noted in HU2.
OR Choose One Exclusive style (at 10th level) and the Special Martial Arts Bonus previously part of the WMA O.C.C. (at 10th level, in other words, they get the other two martial art powers)...the character does not have any of the bonuses, fighting techniques or Special powers noted in HU2.
OR Choose Two Secondary styles (each at 3rd level) and the Special Martial Arts Bonus previously part of the WMA O.C.C. (at 10th level, in other words, they get the other two martial art powers)...the character does not have any of the bonuses, fighting techniques or Special powers noted in HU2.
OR Choose One Exclusive style (at 10th level) and the Special Abilities of the Master from HU2 (the five powers listed under step 3).
OR Two Secondary Styles (each at 3rd level) and the Special Abilities of the Master from HU2 (the five powers listed under step 3).

So what level does the Ancient Master start at using these options? Do any of the martial arts increase, or stay stuck at that level? The HU Revised AM started at "first" level with locked martial abilities, but the HU2 AM starts at a higher level, and his abilities grow with him.

khyron1144 · Unread post by **khyron1144** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:26 pm

jolt wrote:Sentinel: Those are good points though it still seems to me that only by taking Chi based martial arts does the character keep up with the HU counterparts (and even then only the dedicated).

Personally, I believe that a Dedicated Martial Artist with two body-hardening-intensive styles could be a decentish brick compared to a HU character, but I would have to build the characters in question to really test this.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:56 pm

khyron1144 wrote:
jolt wrote:Sentinel: Those are good points though it still seems to me that only by taking Chi based martial arts does the character keep up with the HU counterparts (and even then only the dedicated).

Personally, I believe that a Dedicated Martial Artist with two body-hardening-intensive styles could be a decentish brick compared to a HU character, but I would have to build the characters in question to really test this.

You might consider some style combinations like these:

Drunken Style and Monkey Style.

Tae Kwon Do and Jujutsu.

Tang Su and Yu Sool.

Zanji Shinjenken Ryu and Jujutsu.

Fong Ngan and Fu Chiao Pai.

Shaolin and Pao Pat Mei.

These will give a nice mix of fighting techniques, Martial Arts Powers, Level Advancement Bonuses, and in some cases, you might consider trading one or two Martial Arts Powers for a Skill Program so your character starts with more than 2 Secondary Skills.

khyron1144 · Unread post by **khyron1144** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:04 pm

Sentinel wrote:
What other books (apart from Mystic China) include MA styles in them?

Well, besides Rifts Japan (repinted in Rifts GMG) and HtH Commando (from Coalition War Campaign), there are the fighting arts of China, found in Rifts: China II, and Talitsu in Skraypers.

In PFRPG, there is HtH Gladiator, but that probably isn't detailed enough for your taste: It certainly wasn't for mine.

There is a HtH style for Dragons in Rifts: Ultimate Edition.

And, TMNT has a different version of HtH Ninjutsu.

One question for Sentinel, the Endless Reservoir of Palladium Megaverse Knowledge:

In what specific PFRPG book is HtH Gladiator?

Also a few more sources:
After the 2nd edition has a HtH: Bullfight for non-humanoid mutant animals.

I'm trying to remember the issue numbers, but the Rifter had some martial arts material. I think number four had some material on martial arts in a Rifts setting and some material on grappling and new grappling-oriented styles. Issue number eight (another guess as to the exact number, if anyone knows for sure please confirm or correct my guess) had some material on martial arts from around the world, like Sambo (Russian wrestling), and Savate (French Kick-boxing) plus some physical skills, like Yoga and dieting.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:23 pm

The list of hand to hand skills (and where to find them):
Hand-to-Hand: Aggressive and Deadly Combat 04
Hand-to-Hand: Aikido 30
Hand-to-Hand: Arkenas 61
Hand-to-Hand: Aslyl Okta 48
Hand-to-Hand: Assassin 01, 02, 03, 04, 10, 14, 30, 37, 38, 39, 62
Hand-to-Hand: Assassin 13
Hand-to-Hand: ASSASSIN COMMANDO (AGENT) 08
Hand-to-Hand: Basic 01, 02, 03, 04, 10, 14, 30, 32, 34, 37, 38, 39, 62
Hand-to-Hand: BASIC (AGENT) 08
Hand-to-Hand: Blade Master 57
Hand-to-Hand: Bull Fight 01
Hand-to-Hand: Commando 30, 37, 62 (as CS Commando)
Hand-to-Hand: Defensive and Fast Combat 04
Hand-to-Hand: Dog Boxing Kung Fu 27
Hand-to-Hand: Donathair 48
Hand-to-Hand: Dragon Combat 63
Hand-to-Hand: Drunken Style Kung Fu 27
Hand-to-Hand: Eighteen Weapons Kung Fu 27
Hand-to-Hand: Evasive Combat 15
Hand-to-Hand: Expert 01, 02, 03, 04, 10, 14, 30, 32, 34, 37, 38, 39, 62
Hand-to-Hand: EXPERT COMMANDO (AGENT) 08
Hand-to-Hand: Fencing 72
Hand-to-Hand: Foot Ninjitsu 39
Hand-to-Hand: Gladiator 16, 70, 72
Hand-to-Hand: Judo 30
Hand-to-Hand: Jujitsu 30
Hand-to-Hand: Karate 30
Hand-to-Hand: Kendo 30
Hand-to-Hand: Kirndayv'Zhyf (Kirn) 31
Hand-to-Hand: Knight 13
Hand-to-Hand: Kung Fu (Terran) 31
Hand-to-Hand: Long Bowman 13
Hand-to-Hand: Martial Arts 01, 02, 03, 04, 10, 14, 30, 32, 34, 37, 38, 39, 62
Hand-to-Hand: MARTIAL ARTS (AGENT) 08
Hand-to-Hand: Martial Arts Master 04
Hand-to-Hand: Mercenary 13
Hand-to-Hand: Mngutch (Ular) 31
Hand-to-Hand: Monkey Style Kung Fu 27
Hand-to-Hand: Ninjitsu 39
Hand-to-Hand: Ninjitsu/Tai-Jutsu 30
Hand-to-Hand: Nomadic Tribesman 18, 72
Hand-to-Hand: Non-Men of Arms 13
Hand-to-Hand: None 02
Hand-to-Hand: Palladin 13
Hand-to-Hand: Ranger 13
Hand-to-Hand: Shao-Lin Kung Fu 27
Hand-to-Hand: Shtek-iyr (Chiropti) 31
Hand-to-Hand: Slaver/Enforcer/Bounty Hunter 18, 72
Hand-to-Hand: Soldier 13
Hand-to-Hand: Tai-Chi Ch'uan 27
Hand-to-Hand: Talitsu 29
Hand-to-Hand: Tarlok Martial Arts 29
Hand-to-Hand: Teng-Jutsu 30
Hand-to-Hand: Thief 13
Hand-to-Hand: White Jade Fan 27
Hand-to-Hand: Zanji Shinjinken-Ryo (Ryu) 30
Hand-to-Hand: Zanji Shinjinken Ryu 59
Hand-to-Hand: Zero Gravity Combat: Basic 05, 30, 31, 41
Hand-to-Hand: Zero Gravity Combat: Elite 05, 30, 31, 41

SOURCES
01. After the Bomb (Second Edition)
02. Beyond the Supernatural (2E)
03. Beyond the Supernatural 13
04. Heroes Unlimited (Second Edition)
05. HU: Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide
06. HU: Aliens Unlimited
07. Macross II
08. N&S: Ninjas & Superspies
09. N&S: Mystic China
10. NB: Nightspawn
11. NB: Between the Shadows
12. NB: Through the Glass Darkly
13. PF: Palladium Fantasy (1E)
14. PF: Palladium Fantasy (2E)
15. PF Book 2: Old Ones
16. PF Book 3: Adventures on the High Seas
17. PF Book 4: Adventures in the Northern Wilderness
18. PF Book 6: Yin-Sloth Jungles
19. PF Book 11: Eastern Territories
20. PF Book 13: Northern Hinterlands
21. RMB
22. RWB11: Coalition War Campaign
23. RWB15: Spirit West
24. RWB18: Mystic Russia
25. RWB19: Australia
26. RWB20: Canada
27. RWB25: China 2
28. RDB2: Phase World
29. RDB4: Skraypers
30. RGMG
31. Rifts: Manhunter
32. Robotech I: Macross
33. Robotech: Lancer's Rockers
34. Robotech IV: Southern Cross
35. Robotech: Return of the Masters
36. Robotech II: Sentinels
37. Splicers
38. Systems Failure
39. TMNT (revised edition):
40. TMNT: Guide to the Universe
41. TMNT: Mutants in Orbit
42. TMNT: Mutants of the Yucatan
43. TMNT: Mutants Down Under
44. TMNT: Mutants in Avalon
45. TMNT: Transdimensional
46. TMNT: Turtles Go Hollywood
47. Rifter #3
48. Rifter #5
49. Rifter #6
50. Rifter #7
51. Rifter #10
52. Rifter #12
53. Rifter #13
54. Rifter #14
55. Rifter #18
56. Rifter #19
57. Rifter #23
58. Rifter #25
59. Rifter #27
60. Rifter #28
61. Rifter #29
62. Rifts: Chaos Earth
63. Rifts Ultimate Edition
64. Rifts: Japan
65. TMNT: Road Hogs
66. Rifter # 4
67. Rifts New West
68. After the Bomb 1st Edition
69. Coalition Navy (including Errata)
70. Rifts: Mercenary Adventures
71. Rifter #32
72. Rifter #24
73. Rifter #22
74. Rifter #26

RockJock · Unread post by **RockJock** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:38 am

I had a NPC with Jujitsu and Shaolin Kung Fu, plus the AM special abilities minus the Super Natual conversion. I picked several body hardening and atemi abilities. When I was finishing character creation I changed the focus into an alien martial artist in a vein similar to Karnak(spell?) of the Inhumans.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:08 am

One question for Sentinel, the Endless Reservoir of Palladium Megaverse Knowledge:

In what specific PFRPG book is HtH Gladiator?

Adventures on the High Seas.

Although, Kuseru has a better version at the PMAN.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:09 pm

Sentinel wrote:
One question for Sentinel, the Endless Reservoir of Palladium Megaverse Knowledge:

In what specific PFRPG book is HtH Gladiator?

Adventures on the High Seas.

Although, Kuseru has a better version at the PMAN.

I don't have a version of HTH Gladiator on the PMAN.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:27 pm

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
Sentinel wrote:
One question for Sentinel, the Endless Reservoir of Palladium Megaverse Knowledge:

In what specific PFRPG book is HtH Gladiator?

Adventures on the High Seas.

Although, Kuseru has a better version at the PMAN.
I don't have a version of HTH Gladiator on the PMAN.

Sorry, I thought you did.
Where did that version you sent me come from?
Others may also find it useful.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:28 pm

Sentinel wrote:
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
Sentinel wrote:
One question for Sentinel, the Endless Reservoir of Palladium Megaverse Knowledge:

In what specific PFRPG book is HtH Gladiator?

Adventures on the High Seas.

Although, Kuseru has a better version at the PMAN.
I don't have a version of HTH Gladiator on the PMAN.

Sorry, I thought you did.
Where did that version you sent me come from?
Others may also find it useful.

That's a martial art style, not a hand to hand combat skill.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:58 pm

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
Sentinel wrote:
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
Sentinel wrote:
One question for Sentinel, the Endless Reservoir of Palladium Megaverse Knowledge:

In what specific PFRPG book is HtH Gladiator?

Adventures on the High Seas.

Although, Kuseru has a better version at the PMAN.
I don't have a version of HTH Gladiator on the PMAN.

Sorry, I thought you did.
Where did that version you sent me come from?
Others may also find it useful.
That's a martial art style, not a hand to hand combat skill.

Oh.
Semantics.

Since you can't have both a Martial Art, and a HtH:Somethingorother, I figured terms could be interchangable.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:27 pm

Sentinel wrote:
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
Sentinel wrote:
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
Sentinel wrote:
One question for Sentinel, the Endless Reservoir of Palladium Megaverse Knowledge:

In what specific PFRPG book is HtH Gladiator?

Adventures on the High Seas.

Although, Kuseru has a better version at the PMAN.
I don't have a version of HTH Gladiator on the PMAN.

Sorry, I thought you did.
Where did that version you sent me come from?
Others may also find it useful.
That's a martial art style, not a hand to hand combat skill.

Oh.
Semantics.

Since you can't have both a Martial Art, and a HtH:Somethingorother, I figured terms could be interchangable.

Actually, you can have a martial art style and and Hand to Hand skill. What you can't have is more than one hand to hand skill (which makes me wonder who let things like that slip in Rifts China 2 and Merc Town).

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:54 pm

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:Actually, you can have a martial art style and and Hand to Hand skill. What you can't have is more than one hand to hand skill (which makes me wonder who let things like that slip in Rifts China 2 and Merc Town).

Because it couldn't be that Palladium might've changed their rule and allowed some characters to learn two hand to hand styles. Palladium rules are absolute and never subject to change.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:59 pm

Well, it is sort of non-sensical to have both HtH Basic and HtH Expert, for example.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:31 pm

Glistam wrote:
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:Actually, you can have a martial art style and and Hand to Hand skill. What you can't have is more than one hand to hand skill (which makes me wonder who let things like that slip in Rifts China 2 and Merc Town).

Because it couldn't be that Palladium might've changed their rule and allowed some characters to learn two hand to hand styles. Palladium rules are absolute and never subject to change.

I should note that RUE was printed after both of those books and still contains the rules.

jolt · Unread post by **jolt** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:59 am

I read in one of the threads that the Wrestling skill as presented in the core books was not good and there was a better version in on eof the Rifters.

What exactly is wrong with the Wrestling skill and what makes the new one better? Is it a big enough difference to make getting the issue worhtwhile?

On a related note, since Boxing and Wrestling are prsented as skills rather than Martial arts; what MA's do you thing best represent an archetypical wrestling or fisticuffs style?

Kuseru: Your list was very nice. Now I'm just playing HU2 with lots of Martial Arts (I mean, it is a very common theme). I'm not playing Rifts, it requires, IMO (for me anyway) too much micromanagement of the setting. What books are worth buying just for the martial arts? I assume Mystic China, China II, and Japan. What else? Thanks!

jolt

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:15 am

jolt wrote:I read in one of the threads that the Wrestling skill as presented in the core books was not good and there was a better version in on eof the Rifters.

What exactly is wrong with the Wrestling skill and what makes the new one better? Is it a big enough difference to make getting the issue worhtwhile?

Wrestling as it is presented gives the character no holds, no bonuses to (or any sort of combatative guidlelines) for fighting on the ground: it's just a collection of Physical Attribute Bonuses really.
I find that HtH Jujutsu is better (Rifts Japan) for grappling characters (who don't or shouldn't have a N&SS style).

On a related note, since Boxing and Wrestling are prsented as skills rather than Martial arts; what MA's do you thing best represent an archetypical wrestling or fisticuffs style?

I usually go with HtH Expert, and Wrestling and Boxing, or I use one of my home-brew styles: I have HtH:Wrestling, Dirty In-Fighting, or HtH Boxing.

Kuseru: Your list was very nice. Now I'm just playing HU2 with lots of Martial Arts (I mean, it is a very common theme). I'm not playing Rifts, it requires, IMO (for me anyway) too much micromanagement of the setting. What books are worth buying just for the martial arts? I assume Mystic China, China II, and Japan. What else? Thanks!

jolt

I am really not impressed with Rifts China II.
I don't like the presentation of "Martial Arts Powers" which were in essence martial arts styles.
All Palladium should defer to N&SS and Mystic China, IMO.

RockJock · Unread post by **RockJock** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:29 am

I've had characters with Hth basic who later learned expert or even generic MA, but it was more of a plot device then anything useful.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:36 am

Sentinel wrote:
jolt wrote:I read in one of the threads that the Wrestling skill as presented in the core books was not good and there was a better version in on eof the Rifters.

What exactly is wrong with the Wrestling skill and what makes the new one better? Is it a big enough difference to make getting the issue worhtwhile?

Wrestling as it is presented gives the character no holds, no bonuses to (or any sort of combatative guidlelines) for fighting on the ground: it's just a collection of Physical Attribute Bonuses really.
I find that HtH Jujutsu is better (Rifts Japan) for grappling characters (who don't or shouldn't have a N&SS style).

On a related note, since Boxing and Wrestling are prsented as skills rather than Martial arts; what MA's do you thing best represent an archetypical wrestling or fisticuffs style?

I usually go with HtH Expert, and Wrestling and Boxing, or I use one of my home-brew styles: I have HtH:Wrestling, Dirty In-Fighting, or HtH Boxing.

Kuseru: Your list was very nice. Now I'm just playing HU2 with lots of Martial Arts (I mean, it is a very common theme). I'm not playing Rifts, it requires, IMO (for me anyway) too much micromanagement of the setting. What books are worth buying just for the martial arts? I assume Mystic China, China II, and Japan. What else? Thanks!

That depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for HTH skills, your best bet is Rifts Japan, High Seas or Merc Adventures for Gladiator, and that's pretty much it. China 2 has some problems with its material (namely the HTH skills missing key items like combat moves), Rifts Manhunter, while having an interesting selection, has extremely low end HTH skills (little better than HTH Basic, and often worse), Skraypers stuff is overpowered, PF1E stuff is underpowered (though it gives nice ideas), RUE and ATB2 both have only one style, limited in who can use them (dragons & four legged mutanta animals respectively), and the Rifter styles vary widely in quality from bad design to ubermunchkin.
If you're looking for more full blown martial art styles, N&S and MC have a decent selection of 51 styles between them. Additionally, Rifter #3 and Rifter #18 have some decent styles. Avoid those in Rifters #6 and #7.

If you're looking for an even huger selection of martial art styles and hand to hand skills, you could always check out the Palladium Martial Arts NetbookThough the quality level of the styles there varies to the same degree you see in the official and semi-official versions (good to bad, and everything in between).

jolt

I am really not impressed with Rifts China II.
I don't like the presentation of "Martial Arts Powers" which were in essence martial arts styles.
All Palladium should defer to N&SS and Mystic China, IMO.

While I agree that RC2 had some problems (I figured the only reason for "Mystic Martial Arts Powers" was to get around the "only one hand to hand skill" rule myself), I don't quite agree that Palladium should defer to N&S and MC. While they certainly open the options up, there's too much to balance to allow everyone to use those martial art styles, whereas HTH skills, especially various "quickie" versions of the full blown styles, are much easier to accomodate throughout the rest of the games.

RockJock wrote:I've had characters with Hth basic who later learned expert or even generic MA, but it was more of a plot device then anything useful.

Actually, you can change your HTH skill at a later date, you just lose the abilities of your original HTH skill.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:14 pm

While I agree that RC2 had some problems (I figured the only reason for "Mystic Martial Arts Powers" was to get around the "only one hand to hand skill" rule myself), I don't quite agree that Palladium should defer to N&S and MC. While they certainly open the options up, there's too much to balance to allow everyone to use those martial art styles, whereas HTH skills, especially various "quickie" versions of the full blown styles, are much easier to accomodate throughout the rest of the games.

Definitly, more "quickie" versions.
As I've said elsewhere, the use of HtH Aikido, Judo, Jujutsu, Karate, Kendo, can be utilized to give characters martial arts training with making them "dedicated" martial artists.
I like the styles of Rifts japan far better than Rifts China, although I feel there needs to be more coverage of fighting styles, not only of China, but the rest of the world as well.
After all, what style does a tribal Watusi Warrior (Africa) take?
How about 19th century French Sailors?
I think we can do better than "HtH Martial Arts" for characters like Hercules, or any Greco-Roman character for that matter.

jolt · Unread post by **jolt** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:07 pm

Thanks, all useful information.

What about the updated wrestling skill? Is it any improvement over the original? What book is it in and is it worth picking up?

I agree with Sentinel about the completeness of Martial Arts styles. There's a lot more to martial arts than just the orient. I would love to see Pankration for example. But Africa, South America and the Pacific Islands have all produced very valid MA's still seen today. I would love to see another book similar to Mystic China; though universal in application, still always felt like a supplement to N&SS.

jolt

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:12 pm

jolt wrote:

What about the updated wrestling skill? Is it any improvement over the original? What book is it in and is it worth picking up?

I believe that is an article in the Rifter: either #3 or #7, I forget which.
Expanded rules to cover grappling and ground-fighting.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:09 pm

jolt wrote:Thanks, all useful information.

What about the updated wrestling skill? Is it any improvement over the original? What book is it in and is it worth picking up?

I agree with Sentinel about the completeness of Martial Arts styles. There's a lot more to martial arts than just the orient. I would love to see Pankration for example. But Africa, South America and the Pacific Islands have all produced very valid MA's still seen today. I would love to see another book similar to Mystic China; though universal in application, still always felt like a supplement to N&SS.

jolt

That's because Mystic China IS a supplement to N&S.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:09 am

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
jolt wrote:Thanks, all useful information.

What about the updated wrestling skill? Is it any improvement over the original? What book is it in and is it worth picking up?

I agree with Sentinel about the completeness of Martial Arts styles. There's a lot more to martial arts than just the orient. I would love to see Pankration for example. But Africa, South America and the Pacific Islands have all produced very valid MA's still seen today. I would love to see another book similar to Mystic China; though universal in application, still always felt like a supplement to N&SS.

jolt
That's because Mystic China IS a supplement to N&S.

Now, can we get Mystic Korea, Mystic Siam/Thailand, Mystic Burma, Mystic South Pacific Islands (to include the various Polynesian Islands), Mystic Tibet, Mystic Okinawa, and Mystic Indonesia/Micronesia?
:lol:

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:16 pm

Sentinel wrote:
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
jolt wrote:Thanks, all useful information.

What about the updated wrestling skill? Is it any improvement over the original? What book is it in and is it worth picking up?

I agree with Sentinel about the completeness of Martial Arts styles. There's a lot more to martial arts than just the orient. I would love to see Pankration for example. But Africa, South America and the Pacific Islands have all produced very valid MA's still seen today. I would love to see another book similar to Mystic China; though universal in application, still always felt like a supplement to N&SS.

jolt
That's because Mystic China IS a supplement to N&S.

Now, can we get Mystic Korea, Mystic Siam/Thailand, Mystic Burma, Mystic South Pacific Islands (to include the various Polynesian Islands), Mystic Tibet, Mystic Okinawa, and Mystic Indonesia/Micronesia?

Korea was being worked on by Ronin/Seonjin/Mooyaeja. I don't think anyone's touched anything else (other than my never ending quest to finish a "Mystic Japan" book), though Meph had Rifts Indonesia going for a while (and a Rifter article (#18)).

The Artist Formerly · Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:26 am

I bought N&SS to suppliment my HU games, but I find I don't use it any more. For the most part, N&SS just adds more math testing to for punching and kicking stuff. HU already has punching and kicking stuff. More punching and kicking stuff rules is redundant. There are a few powers here and there, but most of them are similar if not identical to magic, psionic or super powers. So all that's left for N&SS to add is a few outdated bits of 'super tech' ("You spent 80 thousand dollars to get a computer implanted in your body that does less then my seven hundred dollar cell phone? Wow.") a fire arms table that's no longer accurate, some character classes that need a bunch of help and house rules to be useful in HU (and even still they will get blown out of the water by any superhuman run by a player with a lick of intelligence) and bunch of flavor text for punching and kicking rules that one already had in HU2E.

If your group is combat dominated and they've grown bored with the existing math test that is Palladium combat, I suppose N&SS has it's bright points for even more complex rules to bog down play even more, but for the most part, N&SS doesn't add anything to play other then flavor texting which can be role played with out the book just fine.

Think of it like this.

DMA: "I am a master of Thai Kick boxing, I will attack you five times in the first round of combat! HA-HA!"

Mutant "I am a mutant with a Bio-armor granted Natural Armor rating of 16, 220 SDC on top of that and the minor power of Superhuman strength. I'm going to laugh while you break your feet on my armor, then I'm going to hit you with this Buick."

At the end of this. The Martial arts classes are basicly the same as the physical training characters or the ancient master characters. The only differance being flavor text and the HU classes are better written to survive in a HU world. The spies are the same as the light borg or the spy class in HU. The gizmoteers are inferior variations on the genius catagories. The mercs are people with the military/Esponagie back ground and the borg is a weak version of the borgs HU.

If you want a martial artist character who was raised in a monastary and destined to use his mad monk skillz to fight evil, play a Physical training character with that as his back ground. An Atemi specialist is someone with Bio manip psionics, HTH assassin or Martial arts and a some well thought out player descriptions on how he uses his attacks. N&SS used to be really good for capturing a spesific flavor of the James Bond movies and all those really bad Kung-fu theater movies, but in a mixed game of heroes unlimited, without a lot of conversion and special rules it just doesn't function well.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:56 am

I find the complete opposite: Palladium ciombat is bland, dull and uninteresting with only the four HtH styles (Basic, Assassin, Expert, Martial Arts).
The styles of N&SS add a greater element of dynamicism to combat, and break up the monotony of "strike-parry-counterstrike-parry" that is the standard.
With adding those maneuvers as well (special moves found in N&SS but not in HUII), there is a balance in who can access them and who can't.
The Thai Boxer has fast attacks and powerful strikes, but has no grappling or joint locking: The Jujutsu fighter has great holds and Atemi powers, but no long range offensive attacks. Aikido is great for the defensive fighter, while Tae Kwon Do is great for a more aggressive fighter.
Without the styles, combat is simply too generic.

Personally, I don't find them math-intensive at all.