Using Ninjas & SS with Heroes Unlimited

[RockJock]

I have to argue that a chracter with indepth atemi knowledge is a match for most HU characters. Make them an agent, or WMA and you have a good spy, who can hold his own in combat against anyone. Yes he doesn't have the physical strength of a Physical Training character, or the sheer number of attacks of an Ancient Master, but he can hold his own.

I use the N&SS classes and martial arts to add more flavor and variety to HU. I don't want every Ancient Master to have a Chi Blast, and Supernatural Transformation, with the only difference being the minor ability they select. I want one who has the stealth abilities of a ninja, and another as the old monk who nobody seems to be able to lay a finger on. Yes, you could do all of this with a mutant, experiment, or super soldier using Martial Arts, and the right powers, but then you really become generic.

Plus now if you really want a stealthy mutant government super soldier you give him Leopard Style Kung Fu, Ambidextrous, Untrackable, Unremarkable, Shadowmeld, Heightened Sense of Awareness, Mind and Body More Attuned, Nanite Healing Abilities, Hypnotic Mental Conditioning, and Increased Agility to go with his super M-Flex suit with E-Wire Exoskeleton, Stealth Boots, Multi-Optics, Grip Gloves, and Grapnels.

Oh yeah, with a stealth coating.

[The Artist Formerly]

I find the complete opposite: Palladium ciombat is bland, dull and uninteresting with only the four HtH styles (Basic, Assassin, Expert, Martial Arts).
The styles of N&SS add a greater element of dynamicism to combat, and break up the monotony of "strike-parry-counterstrike-parry" that is the standard.
With adding those maneuvers as well (special moves found in N&SS but not in HUII), there is a balance in who can access them and who can't.
The Thai Boxer has fast attacks and powerful strikes, but has no grappling or joint locking: The Jujutsu fighter has great holds and Atemi powers, but no long range offensive attacks. Aikido is great for the defensive fighter, while Tae Kwon Do is great for a more aggressive fighter.
Without the styles, combat is simply too generic.

Personally, I don't find them math-intensive at all.

All it adds is variant descriptions and, on occassion, differant (now outdated) dice rolling for damage.

You've got differant add ons for differant forms of strikes, parries and dodges. Difficulties change based on the attacker's special moves and the defender's special moves. Sometimes a roll to strike followed by a second roll to determine effect. And an metric butt-load of aducation by the GM to determine effects.

For example, the kick boxer has a special attack that does 1d6 direct to hit points under N&SS rules. What does that mean when facing a guy with bio-armor? What are the effects of Dim Mak on a crystal mineral alien (or anyone who has radically differant physiology)?

And if you find HU combat to be bland, there's a problem in the gaming style. Using the identical combat form of HTH MA from HU2E, Raptor has developed wildly differant combat style then Whiteout who is in turn radically differant from Ithica's. Raptor has a 'Rip lash' attack using her energy whips and speed along with a sudden stop. Whiteout uses an artic front style attack combining a strong gust of wind with icey ground for the knock down. He and Ithica have a 'Ground Zero' attack where he gets her airborn, dive bombs a target, then releases as she transforms into armored form and then over hand smashes a target.

And individually the characters fight differantly. Whiteout uses defensive measures to derail opponets from attacking. Raptor uses percision strikes to disable opponets. Ithica uses over bearing attacks to get her opponets to give up or go unconcious.

[The Artist Formerly]

I have to argue that a chracter with indepth atemi knowledge is a match for most HU characters. Make them an agent, or WMA and you have a good spy, who can hold his own in combat against anyone. Yes he doesn't have the physical strength of a Physical Training character, or the sheer number of attacks of an Ancient Master, but he can hold his own.

Not without a lot of help from the GM and some very favorable calls.

I use the N&SS classes and martial arts to add more flavor and variety to HU. I don't want every Ancient Master to have a Chi Blast, and Supernatural Transformation, with the only difference being the minor ability they select. I want one who has the stealth abilities of a ninja, and another as the old monk who nobody seems to be able to lay a finger on. Yes, you could do all of this with a mutant, experiment, or super soldier using Martial Arts, and the right powers, but then you really become generic.

You can do all that with differant character descriptions and playing style.

Plus now if you really want a stealthy mutant government super soldier you give him Leopard Style Kung Fu, Ambidextrous, Untrackable, Unremarkable, Shadowmeld, Heightened Sense of Awareness, Mind and Body More Attuned, Nanite Healing Abilities, Hypnotic Mental Conditioning, and Increased Agility to go with his super M-Flex suit with E-Wire Exoskeleton, Stealth Boots, Multi-Optics, Grip Gloves, and Grapnels.

Oh yeah, with a stealth coating.

With that much stacking, I'd say the N&SS stuff is over kill. And it brings us back to the math aspect. There are seven martial arts powers of stealth that duplicate existing skills or psi/magic/super powers, just with asian language names.

[Sentinel]

There are seven martial arts powers of stealth that duplicate existing skills or psi/magic/super powers, just with asian language names.

There are Invocations that duplicate Powers: should we do away with them?
There are Spells that duplicate Psionics: what should we do with those?

All it adds is variant descriptions and, on occassion, differant (now outdated) dice rolling for damage.

The table of damage can simply be updated to HUII standard (which I had done since the table was modified in Rifts Japan, actually), but HUII lacks moves and techniques likeAutomatic Flip/Throw, Combination Strike/Parry and Parry/Strike, Reverse Turning Kick, Joint Locks, and the various Special Moves of select martial arts (like Thai Kickboxings' Shin Kick, or Tai Chis' Push Open Palm).
These things add a greater degree of depth and variety to combat.

[The Artist Formerly]

There are Invocations that duplicate Powers: should we do away with them?
There are Spells that duplicate Psionics: what should we do with those?

You missed the point. Pulling rules from another book to do what you already have tools for with, only with a asain name in front of it is pointless.

Pi Mi Hsing Tung: Prowl skill.
Inpo: Prowl skill.
Hsing Tsia: Prowl skill.
Sun Shih K'an Chien Chih: Invisability.
Hensho Jutsu: Disguise skill. This one is particularly worthy of being ragged on as this exact trick appears in western novels from the late 1700s (extra points if anyone can name either of the rather famous books I'm referencing). You can see it again in the old Disney Zorro serial and yet again from the Batman TV series. The idea put forth that you have to study some ancient ninja-tude skills at a monastary somewhere in Asia is just plain dumb.
Inton Jutsu: Escape artist. Asains monks didn't invent this one either.
Chi Zoshiki: Again invisibilty.

The table of damage can simply be updated to HUII standard (which I had done since the table was modified in Rifts Japan, actually), but HUII lacks moves and techniques likeAutomatic Flip/Throw, Combination Strike/Parry and Parry/Strike, Reverse Turning Kick, Joint Locks, and the various Special Moves of select martial arts (like Thai Kickboxings' Shin Kick, or Tai Chis' Push Open Palm).
These things add a greater degree of depth and variety to combat.

So more house rules work on your part to do what their are already rules for? Nifty. Auto flip/throw is defensive manuover, it's a discriptive parry for the player to intone. Strike parry/parry strike is paired attacks. Reverse turning kick? Describe it as a cool attack, roll to strike, if successful, roll kick damage.

Varity to combat? Roll some dice, note the effects in terms of damage on paper, roll some dice. That's combat. Kwel moves aren't from the HTH skill on the paper, it's from the player's mind.

[Gomen_Nagai]

to be Fair, palaldium DOES NOT let you do 100's of moves one can do or attempt to do in Combat, In DC they had moves you could do that did more Damage or effect, and you simply had to roll better.

[Sentinel]

So more house rules work on your part to do what their are already rules for? Nifty. Auto flip/throw is defensive manuover, it's a discriptive parry for the player to intone.

No, it's a Body/Flip Throw, complete with damage and knockdown, that doesn't cost the thrower an action.

Strike parry/parry strike is paired attacks.
Again, no it's not: While similar in some respects, it does not require a weapon, only uses one attack, and puts the opponent at a disadvantage to defend (cannot ue Auto-Parry).
Reverse turning kick? Describe it as a cool attack, roll to strike, if successful, roll kick damage.
And again, special advantages not available to other maneuvers. There is a built-in dodge, and a kick which requires the opponet to spend an action to parry, and only costs the player one action, instead of two.

Varity to combat? Roll some dice, note the effects in terms of damage on paper, roll some dice. That's combat. Kwel moves aren't from the HTH skill on the paper, it's from the player's mind.

It's better when the game mechanics support such combat moves, so that the players aren't simply power-munchkining moves they want to pull off.
Having a combination fall/dodge/kick is nice: having Rules and Mechanics that control it's usage is better to prevent abuse, either by the player or by a subjective GM.

[Sir_Spirit]

I have to agree that it's much simpler to jssut use the standard HTH combat forms combined with flavor text and a specific persons powers/background than to actually use the H2H styles found in N&SS.
Doesn't mean they aren't 'cool' and what not, just more complex.

If I wanted to have a character have Tai Chi Chuan for instance, I'd give them Slo Motion Control and HtH:MA or Expert.

[The Artist Formerly]

Colors again?

No, it's a Body/Flip Throw, complete with damage and knockdown, that doesn't cost the thrower an action.

Oh, a power move. Instead of all that, let the player describe what s/he's doing, and adjucate.

Again, no it's not: While similar in some respects, it does not require a weapon, only uses one attack, and puts the opponent at a disadvantage to defend (cannot ue Auto-Parry).

It's exactly the same, one arm is doing one thing, the other is doing the opposite.

And again, special advantages not available to other maneuvers. There is a built-in dodge, and a kick which requires the opponet to spend an action to parry, and only costs the player one action, instead of two.

Power gaming. If you've got those kinds of move, why anything else? Not only that, it turns creative thinking in to creative kit building. You're proposing min-maxing. This power catagory+this martial art+this martial art power+this power=unstopable.

It's better when the game mechanics support such combat moves, so that the players aren't simply power-munchkining moves they want to pull off.

You want mechanics to replace creative thinking? It's not munchy to use your head and your powers to come up with on the fly surprise combat tricks. That's how we run all the time. Describe the situation, the player comes up with a plan, tells the GM about it, target numbers are assigned, dice are rolled and based on the outcome of those rolls is what happens. Specialized sub-combat roll game mechanics just slow things down, as does having a list of six differant roll modifiers for differant sub-effect attacks.

Having a combination fall/dodge/kick is nice: having Rules and Mechanics that control it's usage is better to prevent abuse, either by the player or by a subjective GM.

What you have is a codified uber-attack for a codified uber-character.

[Sentinel]

Colors again?

No, it's a Body/Flip Throw, complete with damage and knockdown, that doesn't cost the thrower an action.

Oh, a power move. Instead of all that, let the player describe what s/he's doing, and adjucate.

Why Adjucate (subjective) when there are impartial mechanics to make the determinations? Fairness all around, instead of one persons' slant with no framework or structure.

Again, no it's not: While similar in some respects, it does not require a weapon, only uses one attack, and puts the opponent at a disadvantage to defend (cannot ue Auto-Parry).

It's exactly the same, one arm is doing one thing, the other is doing the opposite.

There are mechanics that make them different.

And again, special advantages not available to other maneuvers. There is a built-in dodge, and a kick which requires the opponet to spend an action to parry, and only costs the player one action, instead of two.

Power gaming. If you've got those kinds of move, why anything else? Not only that, it turns creative thinking in to creative kit building. You're proposing min-maxing. This power catagory+this martial art+this martial art power+this power=unstopable.

The same mechanics set limits on how these moves are used. Thus instead of Player or GM subjectivity, there are imparial rules mechanics to maintain order.

It's better when the game mechanics support such combat moves, so that the players aren't simply power-munchkining moves they want to pull off.

You want mechanics to replace creative thinking?

I never said to replace creative thinking: I said to SUPPORT such while still maintaining a sense of control, order, and balance.
Game mechanics do not necessarily equal the end of creativity.
But, RPGing is a Game: there are rules in any game. It's not munchy to use your head and your powers to come up with on the fly surprise combat tricks. That's how we run all the time. Describe the situation, the player comes up with a plan, tells the GM about it, target numbers are assigned, dice are rolled and based on the outcome of those rolls is what happens. Specialized sub-combat roll game mechanics just slow things down, as does having a list of six differant roll modifiers for differant sub-effect attacks.

Having a combination fall/dodge/kick is nice: having Rules and Mechanics that control it's usage is better to prevent abuse, either by the player or by a subjective GM.

What you have is a codified uber-attack for a codified uber-character.

What I have, is a specialized maneuver for a character who has access to that maneuver based on the character background.
Either the the move is "uber-" as you describe it, or it is not: you make an example of a Thai Kickboxer vs a mutant with Bio-Armour. I have a hard time seeing how the martial art is "uber".
On the other hand, when faced with super-powered opponents, I can see the usefullness of being a ble to fall/dodge/kick, or Parry-Strike and put the opponent at a disadvantage (far less munchkiny that many super-power combinations, incidentally).
A martial art power like Zanshin is far less "uber" than Radar Sense, yet is still effective against both the invisible and the super-fast. It might appropriate for a character to have such an ability based on their background, however, what I don't want is a player subjectively determining the range and effectiveness of this ability, nor do I want to establish it if I don't have to: fortunately, there is an existing set of impartial rules to set the frame and structure.

If I wanted that level of arbitary GM/Player subjectivity, I'd play Amber or some other game in which everything is determined by what somebody wants to happen with no element of chance.

[The Artist Formerly]

Colored text is bad, Mkay.

Why Adjucate (subjective) when there are impartial mechanics to make the determinations? Fairness all around, instead of one persons' slant with no framework or structure.

Because you're the GM and adjucating is your job. More to the point, it leads to a more vivid combat. Istead of players looking down their character sheet for the rules notations that give them best advantage, they're thinking about the actual position their characters are in and organically responding to the situation rather then applying the best math.

There are mechanics that make them different.

Insignificant differances. And the mechanics that you're touting are born from the other in terms of the game development.

The same mechanics set limits on how these moves are used. Thus instead of Player or GM subjectivity, there are imparial rules mechanics to maintain order.

Everything about the game is subjective from character creation to the world in which they live. GMs are supposed to be the guys (or gals) who make the determiners on these things. And there are plenty of martial arts tricks and espeically attacks that provide improved combat benefits with an unlimited number of uses.

I never said to replace creative thinking: I said to SUPPORT such while still maintaining a sense of control, order, and balance.
Game mechanics do not necessarily equal the end of creativity.
But, RPGing is a Game: there are rules in any game.

Over use of game mechanics or needing a spesific mechanic for each function reduces gaming to math tests. It become less about building a fun character then it is about building an effective character.

What I have, is a specialized maneuver for a character who has access to that maneuver based on the character background.
Either the the move is "uber-" as you describe it, or it is not: you make an example of a Thai Kickboxer vs a mutant with Bio-Armour. I have a hard time seeing how the martial art is "uber".

One major, two minor+modifed martial art+martial arts power(s)+plus a good roll on the skill chart=One extreamly powerful character. The DMA is in serious trouble with the Bio-armor character, put some supernatural strength behind an attack straight to hit points...

On the other hand, when faced with super-powered opponents, I can see the usefullness of being a ble to fall/dodge/kick, or Parry-Strike and put the opponent at a disadvantage (far less munchkiny that many super-power combinations, incidentally).

If access was limited strictly to N&SS characters, maybe so. But mixing in with HU characters, not so much.

A martial art power like Zanshin is far less "uber" than Radar Sense, yet is still effective against both the invisible and the super-fast. It might appropriate for a character to have such an ability based on their background, however, what I don't want is a player subjectively determining the range and effectiveness of this ability, nor do I want to establish it if I don't have to: fortunately, there is an existing set of impartial rules to set the frame and structure.

If I wanted that level of arbitary GM/Player subjectivity, I'd play Amber or some other game in which everything is determined by what somebody wants to happen with no element of chance.

Amber is an example of going too far the other way. The game rules are a way for players to let their imaginations connect with each other and have a basis for comparison. But having a game mechanic for each and every little thing and then having to assign or deny access to those advantages based on character class is silly and it impeeds the flow of the game.

This isn't the first time we've clashed on combat related rules. Let me ask you this, how much importance do you assign combat in your games?

I ask because as politics and intrigue dominate my games, combat is less an issue, I'm not seeming to have the kinds of problems you're describing. I make rulings on the fly for a single situation all the time.

[Sentinel]

Colored text is bad, Mkay.

Other posters complain when I don't.

Quote:
On the other hand, when faced with super-powered opponents, I can see the usefullness of being a ble to fall/dodge/kick, or Parry-Strike and put the opponent at a disadvantage (far less munchkiny that many super-power combinations, incidentally).

If access was limited strictly to N&SS characters, maybe so. But mixing in with HU characters, not so much.

Even allowing HU characters to select Non-Exclusive styles (which is appropriate for some), most cannot select Exclusive Styles (such as Tien Tsueh or Ninjutsu), and thus the DMA remains a unique and viable archetype.
As one of two OCCs that can select two martial arts legally (the Open Hand martial artist of Mystic China being the other) the DMA has enough of an edge.
Nothing like a Negative Chi infection to ruin a super-heroes' day.

[Sentinel]

Let me ask you this, how much importance do you assign combat in your games?

Fairly important.
Take The One, Escape From The Phantom Zone, Mortal Kombat, and Enter The Dragon, and that's combat for me.
Every gun battle is Equilibrium/Hard Boiled/Peplacement Killers/Quick & The Dead.
Every car chase is XXX/ Fast & The Furuious/GTA/Gone in Sixty Seconds.
Every theft or tomb crawl is Entrapment/The Mummy/Tomb Raider/Raiders of the Lost Ark.
And every hand-to-hand would make Jet Li, Jacky Chan, Sammo Hung and Bruce Lee exhausted if they had to act it out.

When I played in GURPS, every combat for me was Cinematic Four-Colour with Chambarra.

I ask because as politics and intrigue dominate my games, combat is less an issue, I'm not seeming to have the kinds of problems you're describing. I make rulings on the fly for a single situation all the time.

Political intrigue, behind the scenes maneuvering in politics and business/boardrooms, stealth, seduction, and intense interaction all play an important role as well, and can certainly dominate a scenario (or even a run of scenarios), but ultimately, the battle of Good Vs. Evil is resolved with Fists and Guts.

When the heroes lose, they know who beat them: they have to look up and see their opponent victorious above them.
Likewise when the villains lose.

[The Artist Formerly]

Other posters complain when I don't.

Yeah well, as you noted, I'm not you. Color text on light brown back ground doesn't show as well and I'm getting older and crankier.

Even allowing HU characters to select Non-Exclusive styles (which is appropriate for some), most cannot select Exclusive Styles (such as Tien Tsueh or Ninjutsu), and thus the DMA remains a unique and viable archetype.
As one of two OCCs that can select two martial arts legally (the Open Hand martial artist of Mystic China being the other) the DMA has enough of an edge.
Nothing like a Negative Chi infection to ruin a super-heroes' day.

But here we come to it. Unlike a power catagory, martial arts are a skill. And anyone can learn a skill.

[The Artist Formerly]

Let me ask you this, how much importance do you assign combat in your games?

Fairly important.
Take The One, Escape From The Phantom Zone, Mortal Kombat, and Enter The Dragon, and that's combat for me.
Every gun battle is Equilibrium/Hard Boiled/Peplacement Killers/Quick & The Dead.
Every car chase is XXX/ Fast & The Furuious/GTA/Gone in Sixty Seconds.
Every theft or tomb crawl is Entrapment/The Mummy/Tomb Raider/Raiders of the Lost Ark.
And every hand-to-hand would make Jet Li, Jacky Chan, Sammo Hung and Bruce Lee exhausted if they had to act it out.

When I played in GURPS, every combat for me was Cinematic Four-Colour with Chambarra.

I ask because as politics and intrigue dominate my games, combat is less an issue, I'm not seeming to have the kinds of problems you're describing. I make rulings on the fly for a single situation all the time.

Political intrigue, behind the scenes maneuvering in politics and business/boardrooms, stealth, seduction, and intense interaction all play an important role as well, and can certainly dominate a scenario (or even a run of scenarios), but ultimately, the battle of Good Vs. Evil is resolved with Fists and Guts.

When the heroes lose, they know who beat them: they have to look up and see their opponent victorious above them.
Likewise when the villains lose.

Huh. We're coming from very differant places.

Palladium combat is what you do when all your other skills have failed you. -Warlawk.

That is to say, politics isn't everything, it's the only thing. And it's rarely good vs evil, just differant points of veiw in conflict.

[Sentinel]

Other posters complain when I don't.

Yeah well, as you noted, I'm not you. Color text on light brown back ground doesn't show as well and I'm getting older and crankier.

Well, you can't have everything.

Even allowing HU characters to select Non-Exclusive styles (which is appropriate for some), most cannot select Exclusive Styles (such as Tien Tsueh or Ninjutsu), and thus the DMA remains a unique and viable archetype.
As one of two OCCs that can select two martial arts legally (the Open Hand martial artist of Mystic China being the other) the DMA has enough of an edge.
Nothing like a Negative Chi infection to ruin a super-heroes' day.

But here we come to it. Unlike a power catagory, martial arts are a skill. And anyone can learn a skill.

Martial Arts are however more centrally important to the Martial Arts OCCs.
It's more than just HtH Martial Arts (or Judo or Karate, etc): it's what separates Sonny Chiba (Street Fighter) from Ken or Ryu (Street Fighter).

[Sentinel]

Let me ask you this, how much importance do you assign combat in your games?

Fairly important.
Take The One, Escape From The Phantom Zone, Mortal Kombat, and Enter The Dragon, and that's combat for me.
Every gun battle is Equilibrium/Hard Boiled/Peplacement Killers/Quick & The Dead.
Every car chase is XXX/ Fast & The Furuious/GTA/Gone in Sixty Seconds.
Every theft or tomb crawl is Entrapment/The Mummy/Tomb Raider/Raiders of the Lost Ark.
And every hand-to-hand would make Jet Li, Jacky Chan, Sammo Hung and Bruce Lee exhausted if they had to act it out.

When I played in GURPS, every combat for me was Cinematic Four-Colour with Chambarra.

I ask because as politics and intrigue dominate my games, combat is less an issue, I'm not seeming to have the kinds of problems you're describing. I make rulings on the fly for a single situation all the time.

Political intrigue, behind the scenes maneuvering in politics and business/boardrooms, stealth, seduction, and intense interaction all play an important role as well, and can certainly dominate a scenario (or even a run of scenarios), but ultimately, the battle of Good Vs. Evil is resolved with Fists and Guts.

When the heroes lose, they know who beat them: they have to look up and see their opponent victorious above them.
Likewise when the villains lose.

Huh. We're coming from very differant places.

Palladium combat is what you do when all your other skills have failed you. -Warlawk.

That is to say, politics isn't everything, it's the only thing. And it's rarely good vs evil, just differant points of veiw in conflict.

For my campaign, it is Good Vs. Evil.
Politics won't save you when a Baal Rog wants to set your city on fire.
Politics won't stop Atlas (the Titan) from toppling skyscrapers.
If Hercues were a villain, you won't stop him with political maneuvering.

[The Artist Formerly]

Well, you can't have everything.

Doesn't mean I won't complain.

Martial Arts are however more centrally important to the Martial Arts OCCs.
It's more than just HtH Martial Arts (or Judo or Karate, etc): it's what separates Sonny Chiba (Street Fighter) from Ken or Ryu (Street Fighter).

No. The differance betwen the three of them is, in game terms, way they apply their combat skills. How their players play them.

[The Artist Formerly]

For my campaign, it is Good Vs. Evil.
Politics won't save you when a Baal Rog wants to set your city on fire.
Politics won't stop Atlas (the Titan) from toppling skyscrapers.
If Hercues were a villain, you won't stop him with political maneuvering.

Sure it would, that's just politics on a differant scale. Atlas got sent to hell for backing the wrong political party. Most of Hercules adventures were about politics, with the others being about food or gettin' some. And the nine hells are packed with politicians. Hurcules, Atlas and th Bal-rog, the Silver Surfer, Dr.Doom, Darkseid, they all answer to someone, so it's just a question of having the right leverage for the job. Violence is the last resort of the incompetant.-Ghandi

[Marrowlight]

Doesn't mean I won't complain.

We'd wonder who we all had been possessed by if we stopped complaining.

[The Artist Formerly]

Doesn't mean I won't complain.

We'd wonder who we all had been possessed by if we stopped complaining.

[Sentinel]

For my campaign, it is Good Vs. Evil.
Politics won't save you when a Baal Rog wants to set your city on fire.
Politics won't stop Atlas (the Titan) from toppling skyscrapers.
If Hercues were a villain, you won't stop him with political maneuvering.

Sure it would, that's just politics on a differant scale. Atlas got sent to hell for backing the wrong political party.
AFTER a major war of gods. This was not a conflict of political maneuvering and backroom manipulation: it was a hot shooting war of the major powers of the universe (at the time).
Most of Hercules adventures were about politics, with the others being about food or gettin' some.
Most of the twelve labors were far more vigorous than say the average episode of I, Claudius however.
Action and adventure play a greater role than intrigue in these instances.
Heracles does need to be resourceful and think his way through his challenges, but he still has to get his hands dirty in order to accomplish his ends. Hercacles is not going to talk his way into capturing Cerberus or killing the Hydra.
Wrestling with Anteaus is a good example: this is the sort of conflict I thrive on. Two great powers locked in a titanic struggle, culminating with the weakness of one being exploited for the win.
And the nine hells are packed with politicians. Hurcules, Atlas and th Bal-rog, the Silver Surfer, Dr.Doom, Darkseid, they all answer to someone, so it's just a question of having the right leverage for the job. Violence is the last resort of the incompetant.-Ghandi

Pearl Harbour demands a Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
Words do fail.
Violence and conflict are not the tools for the job all the time, but they are the right tool sometimes.

You neglected that (in my Atlas example) your skyscraper is toppled. You can't politick your way out of that. You either fight Atlas on his level, or watch him destroy your city.

A large part of the game is the high-adventure, and grand sweeping conflict is a staple of that.
Lord of the Rings would have been a dull story without the grand war between the forces of good and evil.
Dune was chock full of sword and knife fights as well as political in-fighting.
For all that the Trojan War is fought over politics and a woman, there is a WAR: warriors clash on a battlefield in grand and epic conflict, exhibiting bravery and daring, and skill in battle.

Quote:

Martial Arts are however more centrally important to the Martial Arts OCCs.
It's more than just HtH Martial Arts (or Judo or Karate, etc): it's what separates Sonny Chiba (Street Fighter) from Ken or Ryu (Street Fighter).

No. The differance betwen the three of them is, in game terms, way they apply their combat skills. How their players play them.

The difference here is that one character has learned to fight as a means to an end. The other character has learned to fight because that is the End in itself.
The greater martial arts become more than merely a system of strikes and defenses, but the sum totality of the characters outlook on life and the guiding influence on living itself. And along the way, they unlock (in epic lore) fantastic powers in their martial arts studies. This is what separates a character like Marvels' Crossbones from Iron Fist or Shang Chi.

[Daniel Stoker]

Violence is the last resort of the incompetant.-Ghandi

Isn't that actually an Assimov quote?


Daniel Stoker

[Sentinel]

Violence is the last resort of the incompetant.-Ghandi

Isn't that actually an Assimov quote?


Daniel Stoker

And if I'm not mistaken, I believe the quote should read "...Violence is the FIRST refuge of the incompetant."

I have a different philosophy: A The Non-Violent who can't fight are like Eunuchs who claim to be celibate.

[The Artist Formerly]

AFTER a major war of gods. This was not a conflict of political maneuvering and backroom manipulation: it was a hot shooting war of the major powers of the universe (at the time).

War is politics by other means.

Most of the twelve labors were far more vigorous than say the average episode of I, Claudius however.

So? Building the Tennessee Valley Authority was a labor that so far surpasses all twelve. All politics. Supream court law suit level politics.

Action and adventure play a greater role than intrigue in these instances.
Heracles does need to be resourceful and think his way through his challenges, but he still has to get his hands dirty in order to accomplish his ends. Hercacles is not going to talk his way into capturing Cerberus or killing the Hydra.

If he'd have been played a bit better, he might have.

But here's an interesting point though. Eurystheus didn't have what it took to beat down the Hydra, but he needed to get rid of the bastard. So engaging in an act of politics, he got Herc to do the heavy lifting. Further, he used a technicality to void the effort so it didn't count against Herc's 10 efforts, and Herc had to perform another task. My hero.

Wrestling with Anteaus is a good example: this is the sort of conflict I thrive on. Two great powers locked in a titanic struggle, culminating with the weakness of one being exploited for the win.

Bah. Roll it like this. Research, forensics, maybe biology to discover his weakness. Then you let Anteaus know that you have his number. And that you'll willing to share this information with the entire stinking world if he doesn't attend to this problem with a Hydra or a Lion that needs to go bye-bye.

Pearl Harbour demands a Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

No, it didn't. We didn't use nuclear weapons on the Japanese empire because they hit us at Pearl, we nuked them because they refused to surrender and the cost of invasion in lives was too high.

Words do fail.
Violence and conflict are not the tools for the job all the time, but they are the right tool sometimes.

There are times when violence is the only tool available, but it is a means to an end. It's the last most desperate, least controlable tool in the box.

You neglected that (in my Atlas example) your skyscraper is toppled. You can't politick your way out of that. You either fight Atlas on his level, or watch him destroy your city.

If I'm playing on that level, unless the GM provides absolutely no alternative, there will be someone else's string to pull. Even Atlas answers to someone. Everyone answers to someone. Or he's done something he doesn't want someone else to know about and evidence exists of that action. And he can be persuded to go away.

Besides, why would a Titan want to trash a city of humans anyway? He's kind of a dork, and none to bright either, but why is he trashing a city of norms?

One of the few episodes of Buffy the Vampire layer I saw invovled some Chandler (from Friends) like guy and the red headed girl from American Pie movies. She was going to destroy the world, so he, totally absent of powers, walked up to her and talked her out of it.

A large part of the game is the high-adventure, and grand sweeping conflict is a staple of that.
Lord of the Rings would have been a dull story without the grand war between the forces of good and evil.

Conflict is nessicarry for any story, no doubt, but it doesn't need to be resolved with knuckles and energy blasts.

Dune was chock full of sword and knife fights as well as political in-fighting.

And Sting.

For all that the Trojan War is fought over politics and a woman, there is a WAR: warriors clash on a battlefield in grand and epic conflict, exhibiting bravery and daring, and skill in battle.

Remember, the Illiad opens with political manuvering, it's most physically powerful characters are forced to their deaths by political manuvering with no real chance to shake loose of it's opressive gravity.

The difference here is that one character has learned to fight as a means to an end. The other character has learned to fight because that is the End in itself.
The greater martial arts become more than merely a system of strikes and defenses, but the sum totality of the characters outlook on life and the guiding influence on living itself. And along the way, they unlock (in epic lore) fantastic powers in their martial arts studies. This is what separates a character like Marvels' Crossbones from Iron Fist or Shang Chi.

Play style. Ryu kicks people. Ken kicks people, Iron fist kicks people. They might yell differant things when they do it, their players might describe them differantly, but it's the same thing.

It's not the fight that's central to the story, it's the conflict itself and the resolution to that conflict.

[Sentinel]

Quote:
Action and adventure play a greater role than intrigue in these instances.
Heracles does need to be resourceful and think his way through his challenges, but he still has to get his hands dirty in order to accomplish his ends. Hercacles is not going to talk his way into capturing Cerberus or killing the Hydra.


If he'd have been played a bit better, he might have.

The point is: you are Heracles.
Get in there, and show me your stuff.

Besides, why would a Titan want to trash a city of humans anyway? He's kind of a dork, and none to bright either, but why is he trashing a city of norms?

Who cares?
You (the players) are the heroes: stop him.
You can find out what it's about after you stop him.

[The Artist Formerly]

The point is: you are Heracles.
Get in there, and show me your stuff.

No I'm not. I don't build my characters like that.

Who cares?

I would. If we're going to stop him, knowing his motives is key.

You (the players) are the heroes: stop him.
You can find out what it's about after you stop him.

Bleh. That's reactive playing. You can get that from a video game. Being ahead of the curve, proactive play style, we'd have known what was coming and taken steps to stop it.

[Marrowlight]

Bleh. That's reactive playing. You can get that from a video game. Being ahead of the curve, proactive play style, we'd have known what was coming and taken steps to stop it.

Hmmm.....no one should ever be that prepared.

To always know what's coming, I mean.

[Sentinel]

The point is: you are Heracles.
Get in there, and show me your stuff.

No I'm not. I don't build my characters like that.

Who cares?

I would. If we're going to stop him, knowing his motives is key.

You (the players) are the heroes: stop him.
You can find out what it's about after you stop him.

Bleh. That's reactive playing. You can get that from a video game. Being ahead of the curve, proactive play style, we'd have known what was coming and taken steps to stop it.

When the rampaging mindless Hulk is tearing through downtown Manhattan, what good does knowing his motives do?

How exactly are you supposed to know when Atlas is coming anyway? What sort of omnipotence does your charater possess that the motives and plans of the villains are laid bare to you before they happen?

In order for a PC to have the level of prepardness you ascribe to, they will spend several levels building it from nothing.
Which means from day one/Level one, you are a neophyte with no resources: maybe one day you'll be The Bat, but today? You're lucky to be Speedball.

[The Artist Formerly]

When the rampaging mindless Hulk is tearing through downtown Manhattan, what good does knowing his motives do?

Gives you clues on how to stop him. If the Hulk is just after his size 47 pink bunny slippers, then getting them to him in the shortest order possible is fastest and most efficent way to stop him.

How exactly are you supposed to know when Atlas is coming anyway?

The stuff that happened in the game before he started rampaging.

What sort of omnipotence does your charater possess that the motives and plans of the villains are laid bare to you before they happen?

It doesn't take omnipotence, just paying attention. People don't just start smashing stuff and killing people. They have motives and goals. Understanding these allows one to skip the pointless blood shed and massive damage that such a silly fight entails.

Not to mention I play a really good psychic. Gathering information that is hidden to others is one of my specialities.

In order for a PC to have the level of prepardness you ascribe to, they will spend several levels building it from nothing.
Which means from day one/Level one, you are a neophyte with no resources: maybe one day you'll be The Bat, but today? You're lucky to be Speedball.

If I'm a first level character, what in the hell am I doing fighting Atlas, and why would he be smashing up my town? The whole premise of this idea is strange. Nothing just happens. Everything has a begining rooted in a previous act, a middle and and end that will lead to the next cycle. Understanding the root of the problem will make one better able to control it's outcome.

[Sentinel]

If I'm a first level character, what in the hell am I doing fighting Atlas, and why would he be smashing up my town? The whole premise of this idea is strange. Nothing just happens. Everything has a begining rooted in a previous act, a middle and and end that will lead to the next cycle. Understanding the root of the problem will make one better able to control it's outcome.

And there is a reason. Atlas isn't just rampaging for no good reason. There is a background to the story.
Where YOU come in, is where it seems to be a pointless rampage. All you know is what I've told you, because that is all that has been revealed.
"10:00 AM, Atlas, the Titan Of Myth is rampaging through town."
Lies are at risk, and massive destruction is eminent. You don't have time for detective work.

In another case, the principle opponent of the scenario might be a Tectonic Entity, or a swarm of Brodkil, or a few Gargoyles, or a heavily armed pair of Gallu.
Why they are attacking is unknown to you. They have a reason: there is more than just pointless destruction.
But, I have not shared the motivations of the villains with you, because you might not have had a way to know.
Or, the reason may come to be revealed in time.
In any event, all you know is innocents are in danger.
And I restrict evil alignments in my campaigns to NPCs, so you are most likely Good or Selfish at worst.

[JTwig]

If I'm a first level character, what in the hell am I doing fighting Atlas, and why would he be smashing up my town? The whole premise of this idea is strange. Nothing just happens. Everything has a begining rooted in a previous act, a middle and and end that will lead to the next cycle. Understanding the root of the problem will make one better able to control it's outcome.

And there is a reason. Atlas isn't just rampaging for no good reason. There is a background to the story.
Where YOU come in, is where it seems to be a pointless rampage. All you know is what I've told you, because that is all that has been revealed.
"10:00 AM, Atlas, the Titan Of Myth is rampaging through town."
Lies are at risk, and massive destruction is eminent. You don't have time for detective work.

In another case, the principle opponent of the scenario might be a Tectonic Entity, or a swarm of Brodkil, or a few Gargoyles, or a heavily armed pair of Gallu.
Why they are attacking is unknown to you. They have a reason: there is more than just pointless destruction.
But, I have not shared the motivations of the villains with you, because you might not have had a way to know.
Or, the reason may come to be revealed in time.
In any event, all you know is innocents are in danger.
And I restrict evil alignments in my campaigns to NPCs, so you are most likely Good or Selfish at worst.

I have to agree with Sentinel on this one instance. A lot of times comics start with a fight after which the heroes have to back track for the details, this usually leads them to discover a greater/true threat (this especially happen in crossovers).

[jolt]

The Artist Formerly: If politics and intrigue is your thing then go for it. This thread was about combining N&S stuff with HU2 (as is clearly indicated by the thread title). If that's not your thing, fine; but then why bother posting in this thread at all?

The last two pages of this thread have nothing to do with the OP's original questions (I know this because it's me). If you want to argue with Sentinel (the only reason you seem to have posted here), please stop. Make you own thread and talk about the electoral college all you want. I don't care that you don't like that MA abilities are skills with Asian names (supposedly). In fact, I don't care about your play style at all; anymore than you seem to care about mine.

What I do care about is clearly stated in the title of this thread. Which your off-topic and argumentative posts have completely derailed. Please go away. Please.

Everyone Else: If you include MA's from whatever sourcebooks you decide to pull MA's from, how do incorporate that with the Physical Training super? Sure, there are differences between such a super and the MA OCC's from N&S and MC but from a comic book concept standpoint, but the Physical Training super (it seems to me anyway) is clearly trying to capture that concept. Having both seems redundant an, as presented in HU2, the PT super seems kind of bland. What have you guys done?

jolt

[The Artist Formerly]

The Artist Formerly: If politics and intrigue is your thing then go for it. This thread was about combining N&S stuff with HU2 (as is clearly indicated by the thread title). If that's not your thing, fine; but then why bother posting in this thread at all?

The last two pages of this thread have nothing to do with the OP's original questions (I know this because it's me). If you want to argue with Sentinel (the only reason you seem to have posted here), please stop. Make you own thread and talk about the electoral college all you want. I don't care that you don't like that MA abilities are skills with Asian names (supposedly). In fact, I don't care about your play style at all; anymore than you seem to care about mine.

What I do care about is clearly stated in the title of this thread. Which your off-topic and argumentative posts have completely derailed. Please go away. Please.

Everyone Else: If you include MA's from whatever sourcebooks you decide to pull MA's from, how do incorporate that with the Physical Training super? Sure, there are differences between such a super and the MA OCC's from N&S and MC but from a comic book concept standpoint, but the Physical Training super (it seems to me anyway) is clearly trying to capture that concept. Having both seems redundant an, as presented in HU2, the PT super seems kind of bland. What have you guys done?

jolt

The point of my position on this thread is that adding N&SS just over complicates the game with stuff that is better address by role playing rather then roll playing.

After that, it was a format to discuss and debate the differances in conflict resolution and peoples veiws there in. You'd already up a 'thanks for information' post and things were varing from the original topic quiet a bit. This topic had every appearence of a dead thread.

Sorry if you feel offended.

[The Artist Formerly]

What's the best way to incorporate the myriad of martial arts styles from Ninjas and SS's with HU? Do you just replace the generic martial arts for any non-exclusive style? Compared to a super, the Martial Art's OCC's seem a tad week (just by glancing at them) compared to a super. What's the best way to make a super martial artist? Thanks.

jolt

There are three major problems facing a GM who wants to add N&SS martial arts powers to HU2E.

The first of these problems is going to accessability. Who gets them and who can't have them? Are martial arts and their powers limited to just a few spesific catagories or are they for any character to take? If there are limitations, what are they and how do they apply?

Early in my HU (revised) GMing career, I was allowing N&SS non-exculsives to anyone with a good back ground story and at the cost of four skills. A player had built an alien character, and had reasoned that highly advanced hand to hand combat was not something that was the providence of mankind alone. He had rolled a combat specialist cat alien, ditched his HTH skill, and three of his physical skills for Leopard style Gung-Fu. His back story was that he was from a ancient sect of warrior monks who served their planet government by providing superhuman(uh, cat) personel for bodyguard duty, prisioner apprehension, and if needed, assassination work. Pretty reasonable sounding, and the player put the time into the background.

Thing was, he rolled four minor powers on his 'alien powers' table. A high gravity world, made things even trickier. Just to keep track, we're at 3 attacks from Leopard style Gung-fu, two for being alive, and one more from Boxing. Then add into that mix, Extraordinary speed, Extraordinary Physical prowess, healing factor and energy resistance. To that we add Leopard style's two MA powers, the art of mystic Invisibilty and body hardening's Chi Gung.

The next thing to concider is balance. Mixing martial arts abilities like negitive Chi into the game can be a real problem. For a untrained character, there is no defense what so ever. So the GM has to provide a way out for the characters who aren't playing that game. Some sort of NPC on speed dial ready to fix a problem the PC has next to no control over. Even if there is a skilled character in the party, the non-skilled member has to depend on the whims and possible relationships role played to get the juice to get things done for him. One of the things that makes Palladium combat popular is it's concept of active defence, which has just gone away and they are now totally helpless.

Beyond that, as Sentinel pointed out, some of the Martial Arts abilities are as good as minor super powers. If empowered characters are allowed access to even the most basic of MA powers and combat skills, they become serious serious powerhouses who can deal well with most mega-heroes if not out strip them. Which means that the GM has to elevate the threat level for all this combat.

Two problems come from this. The first is that the guy who just wanted to play a regular mutant or experiment is going to be out moded and out shone by the better then mega superhuman. Does one give that character another minor power selection or a few psionics or something to make up for that power differance? If not does that player just have to suck it up and play second fiddle? And how does that less powerful character deal in a game set for the more powerful character?

This leads into what I call, the Batman Syndrome. Bats gets dragged along with the Justice League atleast once a year for some sort of mega-threatening multi comic line spanning something or other. Now Bats is brillant, and DC's best character, ever. But, he's not super tough or super fast, or super strong. But Superman, the manhunter, the Flash, and the Greenlantern of the month, are. Someone who's up to their level, should have no trouble squishing the Batman into a monomolecular paster that needs to be scraped off their shoes. Bats gets tagged by punks from gotham city with crow bars, it should be little trouble for Darkseid to land a punch. Now all of that takes place where the writers of the comic have complete control over what the heroes and villians do, Batman will never die, or if he does, he'll be back by the end (Miricle Max:no no no, he was only MOSTLY dead, which means a little bit alive) to generate revenue for DC massmarket lines.

The second problem, is that the GM has to throw out more powerful enemies to challenge the powerhouse character. Not only is this power creep danagerous to the less powerful characters, but it means that the GM will have to keep falling back on these over pronounced threats to give the super character a good workout. That gets a little dull after a while. "oh, Dorkseid is back for another butt-kicking, that's the third time this week..."

This problem is exasperated further because characters of increased powerlevel don't settle for small time scores and simple plots. So the GM has to continually fabricate story lines worthy of these villians who exist to be worthy of this hero.

The thrid problem comes in the form of adjucation. N&SS was built to play Kung-fu theater and James Bond, not Heroes Unlimited. While they can be coupled, an inventive player will be using his powers and power mix to his character's best advantage. Things like Kaijutsu mixed with sound manipulation super powers, Kime kata to a supernatural strength character or Tamashiwara (or Vibrating palm depending on one's rulings) being used to bypass NARs or turn APS characters into fragments. You're going to be making all kinds of rulings based on your gut at the time.

These are my prime reasons for ditching N&SS HTH rules. They create more drag then the they provide options.

Finally, as to your question. If you want to beef up your Martial arts, I recommend a little technology. Light weight power armor, kisenite or even laser weapons can make the MA more the match for his super compatriots. You don't even have to call it techno hardware, you can explain it away as a limited form of magic.

Alteranately, a sprinkling of psioinc powers or the super soldier options from the experiement section provide a good way to beef up a character in a controlled fashion. Elixars, mystic training, ten thousand years of selective breeding could all be the explaination for these powers.

During my revised days, I had a Chinese Tong lord with HTH Demon Wrestling, a teched up version of that armor and some teched up weapons added in who was match for a one major three minor granted abilities magic character.

[jolt]

The Artist Formerly: In HU2 (I don't remember the page), it says that only Physical Training and Special Training should have access to N&S stuff. Would you adhere to this restriction? The point about negative chi is a very good one and I saw the potential problems with it that you mentioned right away. That's why I asked earlier about the validity of only using the non-chi heavy MA styles.

Everyone: In any case, this brings me back to my last question. Without N&S, HU2's attempt at the MA archetype seems to be the Physical Training super. As presented, I find it very bland. Using actual MA styles is much more interesting, IMO. If you do use N&S, is there any need for the Physical Traing super (as N&S would seem to replace the need for the PT super archetype)? Agree? Disagree? And if you do, do you bring in the DMA and WMA to replace the PT super or do you modify the PT super to have MA's instead of the listed bonuses? What about the various special training characters?

Complexity of the combat is not an issue for me. I played Champions(TM) for years. I love the system but the fact is, even with N&S added in, HU2 is a faster moving system.

Kutseru: Earlier you said to avoid the MA's in Rifter issues 6 and 7. I had a chance to flip through 7 at a local store and saw a lot of non-oriental styles that I would love to use (Savate, Capoeira, etc.). I didn't buy it so I didn't get to crunch the numbers; what's the problem with the styles in that issue?

jolt

EDIT: Artist Formerly: I wasn't offended by your post but I thought the thread was moving along nicely and your first post seemed (at least to me) negative and argumentative. And it derailed the topic. If that wasn't your intent, oh well, ces la vie.

[Sentinel]

For myself, I obviously include N&SS and Mystic China, as well as draw upon the martial arts elements from other Palladium books.

For me, the additional variety brought to combat is worth anything.
The use of the basic two OCCs (DMA, and WMA) greatly expand the battery of characters available, so that the PT and Ancient Master aren't so over used.

I like the Physical Training character a lot (a good example of this type of character can be found in the comic Megalith), but he like the AM is a different type of character than the martial artist really.

While I certainly understand the "Batman Syndrome" TAF talks about, and there is a lot of validity to it, I take a different approach.
Firstly, I adhere to the tradition of the Super Hero Team since the first team: The JSA. Lots of costumed "mystery men", and Doctor Fate and The Spectre, and Green Lantern. It can work.
I try to avoid overusing characters along the Darkseid lines, and stick with teams of villains who are as diverse as the heroes.
Captain America has been an Avenger right alongside of Iron Man and Thor, and that's worked fine for him, as it has for Hawkeye, Black Panther, Swordsman, Black Knight, and others. I try to adhere to the conventions of the genre, and this helps to an extent.
The other point (getting back to HtH combat) is that while a Darkseid-type could pulp Batman if he hits, he really should have minimal combat skill to begin with. Darkseid (or rather, a character like him) at best should have HtH Basic. He doesn't train to fight with his fists. He could care less about a proper wrist lock or reverse turning kick. And thus, a highly trained character can survive, possible hold their own as an effective distraction or part of a coordinated team effort. While Darkseid is busy trying to squash the Caped Crusader, he is paying less attention to what J'Onn, Kal-El, and Green Lantern are doing, and that will be his undoing.
And as a competitor who has fought at 188 and defeated opponents up to 325, I can tell you it's not as ludicrous as it sounds: Even if Darkseid takes no damage, a Flip/Throw will cost him an action and Initiative. A Backward Sweep can be as effective too.

Now, as far as the balance of things like Negative Chi against non-chi masters: too bad for them.
Martial Arts characters in N&SS who didn't have Chi ran that risk. So do HU characters.
But then, Chi masters aren't immune to Disintegration, or EE Plasma.
So, there is some balance there.

Who gets an N&SS Martial Art instead of the more basic HtH styles?
Characters (similar to Iron Fist, Richard Dragon, and so on) who devote a large portion of their lives to the actual ideals and principles of martial arts, not just physical disciplines.
A lot depends on the character background as described by the player: most characters can get by with HtH martial arts such as are found in Rifts Japan. They provide a good selection of combat skills and maneuvers, but lack the more esoteric disciplines usually reserved for the true masters. At the same time, they aren't as overbalanced as the Ancient Master ( the "everyman" of the martial artist). Terribly over used. Most often, when a player of mine has chosen the AM, what they really want is a young DMA with all the martial art moves. I try to emphasize the "ancient" part of the AM. Kung-Fu hotshots can be WMAs and DMAs.

As far as attacks per melee, you have two real choices.
There is the Canon Rule: N&SS and Mystic China styles do not get the +2 APM.
Or, do what I do, add the +2 attacks, and simply chalk it up to the advantage gained in a lifetime of training.

[The Artist Formerly]

The Artist Formerly: In HU2 (I don't remember the page), it says that only Physical Training and Special Training should have access to N&S stuff. Would you adhere to this restriction? The point about negative chi is a very good one and I saw the potential problems with it that you mentioned right away. That's why I asked earlier about the validity of only using the non-chi heavy MA styles.

First, call me Taf or Taffy, saves typing. Or cut and pasting. I know I hate getting paste all over my monitor.

Anyway, yeah if a PC really wanted to play an ancient master or physical training character with N&SS rules, I wouldn't have much trouble with it. But I would probably place limitations on which powers they could take to get rid of the ones that were troubling to the game. I would also point out that the PT HTH table is pretty bad ass one, and that the player should carefully concider what's s/he's doing.

In a game of Scraypers, I allowed a Talis character with a batch of minor powers to use the HTH Tengu from Rifts Japan to express the highly acrobatic nature of his personal fighting style.

After all, the AM and PT character types were custom built to fit into HU world, while N&SS characters were built for the N&SS world. They are compadable, but it's not a good fit. There are a number of disseperate issues and fragments that make pinning them together difficult.

In direct response to your question, yes, I would only allow the PT and MA characters to have N&SS MAs, but I would try and make sure that the player knew what s/he was getting into.

Everyone: In any case, this brings me back to my last question. Without N&S, HU2's attempt at the MA archetype seems to be the Physical Training super. As presented, I find it very bland. Using actual MA styles is much more interesting, IMO. If you do use N&S, is there any need for the Physical Traing super (as N&S would seem to replace the need for the PT super archetype)? Agree? Disagree? And if you do, do you bring in the DMA and WMA to replace the PT super or do you modify the PT super to have MA's instead of the listed bonuses? What about the various special training characters?

Back to one of my fundamental disagreements with this idea. The PT character, the MA character, they aren't bland, their just bare bones templates so that the Player or GM can add whatever window dressing they need. You want a batman tribute character, *poof*, good to go. You want Jet Li from Romeo must die, *poof*, good to go. You want that roller skating ninja from Kung-fu Art, get yourself a pair of rollerskates and, *poof*, you're good to go.

What goes over the bones that the PT and MA classes provide is up to the player and/or the GM.

[The Artist Formerly]

[quote="Sentinel"While I certainly understand the "Batman Syndrome" TAF talks about, and there is a lot of validity to it, I take a different approach.
Firstly, I adhere to the tradition of the Super Hero Team since the first team: The JSA. Lots of costumed "mystery men", and Doctor Fate and The Spectre, and Green Lantern. It can work. I try to avoid overusing characters along the Darkseid lines, and stick with teams of villains who are as diverse as the heroes.
Captain America has been an Avenger right alongside of Iron Man and Thor, and that's worked fine for him, as it has for Hawkeye, Black Panther, Swordsman, Black Knight, and others. I try to adhere to the conventions of the genre, and this helps to an extent.[/quote]

Hold up. Here's a problem Cappy, the swordsman, Bats, they all have script immunity. They can get into fights with the heavy hitters because the writers won't let them really die. And if they do die, they'll be back in time to drum up more revenue for the publisher.

The other point (getting back to HtH combat) is that while a Darkseid-type could pulp Batman if he hits, he really should have minimal combat skill to begin with.

Why? Darkseid and guys of that nature tend to be VERY long lived, which is plenty of time to have picked up some serious HTH skills. Like everyone else, these types go through phases of introspection and personal development.

Darkseid (or rather, a character like him) at best should have HtH Basic. He doesn't train to fight with his fists. He could care less about a proper wrist lock or reverse turning kick. And thus, a highly trained character can survive, possible hold their own as an effective distraction or part of a coordinated team effort.

From time to time, as I pointed out, Bats get's wacked by a punk with crowbar or the Joker gets a lucky shot in or someone just shoots the Batman. And DSeque characters only need land one punch.

While Darkseid is busy trying to squash the Caped Crusader, he is paying less attention to what J'Onn, Kal-El, and Green Lantern are doing, and that will be his undoing.

Get rid of the small fry first, guys on that level can and have eaten the best the three you put forth have to throw out. Taken the hit right in the chops, and smiled. Usually, it's not paying attention to Bats that gets JLA villians into trouble. Superchunk and his posse of cape holder uppers are usually the distraction

And as a competitor who has fought at 188 and defeated opponents up to 325, I can tell you it's not as ludicrous as it sounds: Even if Darkseid takes no damage, a Flip/Throw will cost him an action and Initiative. A Backward Sweep can be as effective too.

This is a failure of game physics. With even the best leverage, Batsesque just can't generate enough force to really move DSesques characters around. Even a simple act of deflection would be next to impossible give the shere differances in mass and strength. If you're as skilled and practiced as you've lead me to belive, you should know that. There is a galaxy of differance between two humans fighting even if they are 150lbs apart and a 230lb human peek conditioned strengthed batman and 800 pound peek mega-strong Darkseid.

Though I would note this is where having that strength catagory bump provided by Palladium for it's HU martial artists really pays out.

[Sentinel]

[quote="Sentinel"While I certainly understand the "Batman Syndrome" TAF talks about, and there is a lot of validity to it, I take a different approach.
Firstly, I adhere to the tradition of the Super Hero Team since the first team: The JSA. Lots of costumed "mystery men", and Doctor Fate and The Spectre, and Green Lantern. It can work. I try to avoid overusing characters along the Darkseid lines, and stick with teams of villains who are as diverse as the heroes.
Captain America has been an Avenger right alongside of Iron Man and Thor, and that's worked fine for him, as it has for Hawkeye, Black Panther, Swordsman, Black Knight, and others. I try to adhere to the conventions of the genre, and this helps to an extent.

Hold up. Here's a problem Cappy, the swordsman, Bats, they all have script immunity. They can get into fights with the heavy hitters because the writers won't let them really die. And if they do die, they'll be back in time to drum up more revenue for the publisher.

There are too many specific examples on both sides of this equation to fully plumb it out here. I will suggest that there are very real and plausible examples of characters like Black Panther getting shots in on guys like Ultron, and then proving too nimble to get hit in return. And yes, when a guy like Ultron or Nefaria gets a hit on Cap or Panther, they are out of the fight for a long stretch, if not completely.

The other point (getting back to HtH combat) is that while a Darkseid-type could pulp Batman if he hits, he really should have minimal combat skill to begin with.

Why? Darkseid and guys of that nature tend to be VERY long lived, which is plenty of time to have picked up some serious HTH skills. Like everyone else, these types go through phases of introspection and personal development.

The "why" of it is, Darkseid has the Omega Effect. And, he can fist fight a Kryptonian. And he has minions.
Would he bother to learn to fight well? Not like his Female Furies, or his estranged son Orion.
The nuances of hand-to-hand combat are of little interest to his life-long search for the Anti-Life Equation. Thusly, I can see his skill in combat being minimal. He really does have too many distractions.

Darkseid (or rather, a character like him) at best should have HtH Basic. He doesn't train to fight with his fists. He could care less about a proper wrist lock or reverse turning kick. And thus, a highly trained character can survive, possible hold their own as an effective distraction or part of a coordinated team effort.

From time to time, as I pointed out, Bats get's wacked by a punk with crowbar or the Joker gets a lucky shot in or someone just shoots the Batman. And DSeque characters only need land one punch.

Sure, Bats get a shot from time to time. As a GM, that can be expressed by the player having a bad dice day, or me rolling a Natural 20 for the thug with the crowbar.

While Darkseid is busy trying to squash the Caped Crusader, he is paying less attention to what J'Onn, Kal-El, and Green Lantern are doing, and that will be his undoing.

Get rid of the small fry first, guys on that level can and have eaten the best the three you put forth have to throw out. Taken the hit right in the chops, and smiled. Usually, it's not paying attention to Bats that gets JLA villians into trouble. Superchunk and his posse of cape holder uppers are usually the distraction.

I take the opposite strategy: take out the "real" threats first, and come back for the small fry. Drop the guys who can do real damage to me, then get back to the lesser lights who, while annoying, aren't much of a threat to my armoured hide.

And as a competitor who has fought at 188 and defeated opponents up to 325, I can tell you it's not as ludicrous as it sounds: Even if Darkseid takes no damage, a Flip/Throw will cost him an action and Initiative. A Backward Sweep can be as effective too.

This is a failure of game physics. With even the best leverage, Batsesque just can't generate enough force to really move DSesques characters around. Even a simple act of deflection would be next to impossible give the shere differances in mass and strength.
Then you don't attempt to parry: you use dodge, or Auto-Dodge if you possess it. Point being: you have twenty times the options of maneuvers to choose from, which is why I advocate Martial Arts in the first place. My Drunken Kung-Fu or Monkey Style makes getting hit by a mega-villain difficult and frustrating.
If you're as skilled and practiced as you've lead me to belive, you should know that. There is a galaxy of differance between two humans fighting even if they are 150lbs apart and a 230lb human peek conditioned strengthed batman and 800 pound peek mega-strong Darkseid.

For normal humans, the difference of 150 lbs. is proportionately as great a challenge, because we are Normal.
If we could be EXT or Super Human, the outputs would be ramped up as well.
Batman has been described as being able to lift 1000 lbs, as early as his BoB Kane Detective appearances. Darkseid is well within his flip/throw range.
Remember: while it is possible for a character like Cap to lift 800 lbs in real life, that lifter will probably weigh far more, and not be so excellent in other athletic endeavors as well.

Though I would note this is where having that strength catagory bump provided by Palladium for it's HU martial artists really pays out.[/quote]

It's simply a "bump" too great for the majority of martial artists.
The PT simply isn't what the "dedicated" martial artist is.
Even the PT fluff text points out that true martial artists regard them as "talented strongmen".

[Gomen_Nagai]

speaking of DarkSeid.....
I had used his Omega Beams to Redirect Singularity attacks back at Pcs who were Cheesed off at him and launching them at o' Darkseid.

[The Artist Formerly]

Colored text is bad, umkay.

There are too many specific examples on both sides of this equation to fully plumb it out here. I will suggest that there are very real and plausible examples of characters like Black Panther getting shots in on guys like Ultron, and then proving too nimble to get hit in return. And yes, when a guy like Ultron or Nefaria gets a hit on Cap or Panther, they are out of the fight for a long stretch, if not completely.

Still we're in the territory of writers fiat. That's all that keeps them in the story.

Then you don't attempt to parry: you use dodge, or Auto-Dodge if you possess it. Point being: you have twenty times the options of maneuvers to choose from, which is why I advocate Martial Arts in the first place. My Drunken Kung-Fu or Monkey Style makes getting hit by a mega-villain difficult and frustrating.

Actually, you have twenty minor variants on the same option, roll a dice, and try to get a higher score then the other guy.

For normal humans, the difference of 150 lbs. is proportionately as great a challenge, because we are Normal.
If we could be EXT or Super Human, the outputs would be ramped up as well.
Batman has been described as being able to lift 1000 lbs, as early as his BoB Kane Detective appearances. Darkseid is well within his flip/throw range.
Remember: while it is possible for a character like Cap to lift 800 lbs in real life, that lifter will probably weigh far more, and not be so excellent in other athletic endeavors as well.

Well then, Batman and his ilk are clearly superhuman, and it's a good thing that we have the PT and AM classes for our martial artists instead of the DMA and WMA. They'd get their butts kicked up around their ears.

It's simply a "bump" too great for the majority of martial artists.
The PT simply isn't what the "dedicated" martial artist is.
Even the PT fluff text points out that true martial artists regard them as "talented strongmen".

You're too wrapped in the fluff text.

Here's the thing Sentinel. Looking back over your statements, you've said that N&SS characters work well in HU2E. But you've had to modify the basic rules to make the N&SS characters more surivivable, both in giving them more attacks then the original build and providing defensive measures that don't possibly hold up. When in game with the heavy hitters, you've reasoned out that they aren't all that up to using their combat skills and will ignore the MAs (who can't even risk being attacked for fear of a good roll).

Effectively, you're giving the MAs a pass, special protections, so they can run with the big dogs and you've got the heavy hitter villians programed to lose.

What you're putting forth reminds me of an article in Dragon magizine about adventurers and old Red Dragons. A Red Dragon chillin' in his lair after having done some evil Red Dragon stuff, is set apon by a group of adventurers. The Dragon uses his standard claw, claw bite routine, backed with a breath weapon attack once every three rounds. Breath attack at the casters in the back, claws and bites at the meleeist. Dragon loses that fight. He never had a chance to win.

In that run, the Dragon gave up where and when the fight was going to happen, and he played the adventurers game. Now if he had just flipped his attack senquence around, and gotten rid of the casters first with his claws and bite while using his breath attack to hurt the meleeist at ranges they can't effectively respond to, he wins.

Going back to our Darkseid fight. DS cripples or kills Batman, and one of the heavy hitters coming at him has to stop what they're doing to attend to him or go check on him (he's dead Jim...er Jon!). While the heroes are off balance and hurting from that he can take steps to get rid of whomever was dumb enough to turn his back on Darkseid and go check on Batman's corpse. I suppose a yellow frisbee with supernatural strength behind it would be pretty fatal to a normal man in a green stop everything but yellow stuff force field.

Two down, two to go. Gee, I wonder if Darkseid has some fire handy? Super chunk and the manhunter are either going to have to fight DS or try and help their friends, only if they turn their back on him to go help, they die too.

And to drag us back on topic, I'll finish with this. Under the Palladium system, a character's hand to hand combat skill is far more then just how well he learned to punch or kick stuff or how much time he spent at the Dojo. It represents the character's whole way of thinking in combat terms. Punching, kicking or blasting, they all use the same basic stat block to determine how often and how well they perform when they aren't punching, kicking or blasting. While DS might or might not spend much time using his knuckles, he probably did put alot of time in using those weirdo eye beams of his. And that's a form of combat training just the same as taking Tae Kwon Do classes down at the Y three times a week.

[Sentinel]

Colored text is bad, umkay.

There are too many specific examples on both sides of this equation to fully plumb it out here. I will suggest that there are very real and plausible examples of characters like Black Panther getting shots in on guys like Ultron, and then proving too nimble to get hit in return. And yes, when a guy like Ultron or Nefaria gets a hit on Cap or Panther, they are out of the fight for a long stretch, if not completely.

Still we're in the territory of writers fiat. That's all that keeps them in the story.

You can say that any character at any given time.
Whether we're talking Captain America vs. Living Tribunal or Sherlock Holmes vs. Prof. Moriarty, writer fiat often is the deciding factor.

Then you don't attempt to parry: you use dodge, or Auto-Dodge if you possess it. Point being: you have twenty times the options of maneuvers to choose from, which is why I advocate Martial Arts in the first place. My Drunken Kung-Fu or Monkey Style makes getting hit by a mega-villain difficult and frustrating.

Actually, you have twenty minor variants on the same option, roll a dice, and try to get a higher score then the other guy.

Eh, more moves is more moves. The fact that I have the option of Strike/Parry, Automatic Dodge, Reverse Turning Kick, Automatic Arm Lock, Automatic Flip/Throw, or Parry/Strike is good enough for me.

For normal humans, the difference of 150 lbs. is proportionately as great a challenge, because we are Normal.
If we could be EXT or Super Human, the outputs would be ramped up as well.
Batman has been described as being able to lift 1000 lbs, as early as his BoB Kane Detective appearances. Darkseid is well within his flip/throw range.
Remember: while it is possible for a character like Cap to lift 800 lbs in real life, that lifter will probably weigh far more, and not be so excellent in other athletic endeavors as well.

Well then, Batman and his ilk are clearly superhuman, and it's a good thing that we have the PT and AM classes for our martial artists instead of the DMA and WMA. They'd get their butts kicked up around their ears.

That's semantics.
You know as well as I that Batman is considered "human" in comics, and has no superhuman powers whatsoever, not even strength.

It's simply a "bump" too great for the majority of martial artists.
The PT simply isn't what the "dedicated" martial artist is.
Even the PT fluff text points out that true martial artists regard them as "talented strongmen".

You're too wrapped in the fluff text.

What else is is it for?
When making a determination about what kind of character to play, isn't it the fluff text that helps make the decision? Fluff text is part of what makes two similar character archetypes different.

Here's the thing Sentinel. Looking back over your statements, you've said that N&SS characters work well in HU2E. But you've had to modify the basic rules to make the N&SS characters more surivivable, both in giving them more attacks then the original build and providing defensive measures that don't possibly hold up.
What I did was simply give the Martial Artists the same two attacks per melee that all other Palladium characters get in the interest of making the Megaverse actually compatible.
I read the rule in HU Revised that all characters get Two attack, plus those gained from HtH and Boxing: I then applied that to every single Palladium game, because they are supposed to be compatible.
It wasn't to make Martial Artisits more survivable. It was to make the game live up to its' premise.
When in game with the heavy hitters, you've reasoned out that they aren't all that up to using their combat skills and will ignore the MAs (who can't even risk being attacked for fear of a good roll).

You run the risk of being punched into paste: it's part of the life of being a hero. If you want to play safe, stay at home. Heroes take risks.
And, Saint George slays a dragon.
Perseus defeats Medusa.
Bellerophon kills the Chimera.
Theseus defeats the Minotaur.
Abraham Van Helsing kills Dracula.
David kills Goliath.
And so on. Weaker heroes slay more powerful monsters and opponents. It's a staple of heroic fiction, whether comic book super-heroes or classic mythology and folklore.

Effectively, you're giving the MAs a pass, special protections, so they can run with the big dogs and you've got the heavy hitter villians programed to lose.

Not true.
I simply said a character like Darkseid wasn't likely to practice HtH combat.
But, a god like Ares would.
Or a Chinese Dragon certainly.
Heracles (if he were a villain) would be a heavy hitter with advanced martial arts skills: Pancration, Boxing, Wrestling, he's a super-powered Ken Shamrock.
Some do, some don't.

What you're putting forth reminds me of an article in Dragon magizine about adventurers and old Red Dragons. A Red Dragon chillin' in his lair after having done some evil Red Dragon stuff, is set apon by a group of adventurers. The Dragon uses his standard claw, claw bite routine, backed with a breath weapon attack once every three rounds. Breath attack at the casters in the back, claws and bites at the meleeist. Dragon loses that fight. He never had a chance to win.

In that run, the Dragon gave up where and when the fight was going to happen, and he played the adventurers game. Now if he had just flipped his attack senquence around, and gotten rid of the casters first with his claws and bite while using his breath attack to hurt the meleeist at ranges they can't effectively respond to, he wins.

I read that article story. A lot has to do with the strategy the GM applies, and the opponents he cares to use, as well as the experience of the GM himself.
Let's be fair and honest: it the GM chooses (for example) a Hook Horror, or an Umber Hulk, he is not picking a master strategist. If the GM wanted a thinking character to use against the players, he would pick a different type of monster (a vampire perhaps).
You use the monster you choose, and if it gets' munched easily, perhaps you chose poorly, because you as GM should have known what your players were capable of.

I always had a separate issue with D&D dragons anyway, but that has no relevance here. Simply put, I thought they weren't powerful enough in D&D.

Going back to our Darkseid fight. DS cripples or kills Batman, and one of the heavy hitters coming at him has to stop what they're doing to attend to him or go check on him (he's dead Jim...er Jon!). While the heroes are off balance and hurting from that he can take steps to get rid of whomever was dumb enough to turn his back on Darkseid and go check on Batman's corpse. I suppose a yellow frisbee with supernatural strength behind it would be pretty fatal to a normal man in a green stop everything but yellow stuff force field.

Two down, two to go. Gee, I wonder if Darkseid has some fire handy? Super chunk and the manhunter are either going to have to fight DS or try and help their friends, only if they turn their back on him to go help, they die too.

This fight could go all kinds of ways: Why doesn't Darkseid simply use the Omega Effect and a Boom Tube and get them all as they sleep?
Teleport them into a Fire Pit?
Why is it that Superman can be teleported onto Apokalyps, but then he is able to dodge the O-Beams later in the same story? Can he dodge them or not? The answer is probably writer fiat, or in some cases Deus Ex.

In a past issue of the Avengers, Kang the Conqueror is heard to say about Captain America: "He is human, yes. But, with no more than his shield and his fighting spirit, he wins. And, he leads others to win. It is not about weapons. It is not about power. It is about Spirit and Cunning, and Courage, and Skill."

That is the point of having such characters mixed in with Thor, Vision, Iron Man and company.

Herc killed the Hydra, but it was his cousin Iolus who gave him the flaming torch to burn the severed heads.

And to drag us back on topic, I'll finish with this. Under the Palladium system, a character's hand to hand combat skill is far more then just how well he learned to punch or kick stuff or how much time he spent at the Dojo. It represents the character's whole way of thinking in combat terms. Punching, kicking or blasting, they all use the same basic stat block to determine how often and how well they perform when they aren't punching, kicking or blasting. While DS might or might not spend much time using his knuckles, he probably did put alot of time in using those weirdo eye beams of his. And that's a form of combat training just the same as taking Tae Kwon Do classes down at the Y three times a week.

You could say that the Human Torch using his flame power is a form of combat training: but, again, HtH combat skills and Martial Arts are a separate thing from Powers, and their uses.
Otherwise there would truly be little difference between The Human Torch and Iron Fist.

Running a pick-up Marvel Game years ago (17 years ago actually), we found ourselves pitting the Human Torch against the Japanese Sunfire. Torchie got his flaming butt kicked, because Sunfire

knows Kung Fu

(okay, actually Japanese martial arts, but you get the idea). Without fear of being burned, Torchie was chopped, kicked and bludgeoned into unconsciousness.

In Palladium, this would be the difference in HtH Basic vs HtH Karate, and the more advanced the style the greater the disparity.
As a concept character, the Nationalistic Sunfire gets Samurai level fighting arts: it's the concept of his character.
Johnny Storm does not: it's not important to him to learn how to fight past a certain level.
Martial Arts are, or can be, a centrally defining characteristic in the characters' life: it's what makes a Shaolin Monk or a Koga Ninja different from Joe who trains three days a week at McDojos'.

[The Artist Formerly]

Perhaps I'm being too subtle... I get that alot.

You can say that any character at any given time.
Whether we're talking Captain America vs. Living Tribunal or Sherlock Holmes vs. Prof. Moriarty, writer fiat often is the deciding factor.

It's reasonable, plasuable, that Holmes and the not so good professor could tangle and Holmes or Professor, or both, could survive the encounter. They are on the same footing with each other.

Cappy and gods, no. Not at all. *Squish*

Colored text is bad, umkay.

Eh, more moves is more moves. The fact that I have the option of Strike/Parry, Automatic Dodge, Reverse Turning Kick, Automatic Arm Lock, Automatic Flip/Throw, or Parry/Strike is good enough for me.

It's the same move. Roll dice, higher score. Just because there isn't a rule cover a spesific situation, doesn't mean that a character can't perform it or that it can't happen. A player doens't need to have 'joint locks' on their combat chart to have it, after all they teach most of the useful ones at the woman's self defense courses. This isn't a complex secert move that only the chosen ones know. Those moves you describe are for the most part available at any number of self defense schools right here in the US.

Colored text is bad, umkay.

That's semantics.

Not really. It goes to supporting Palladium's use of super powers to enhance the two MA classes in Heroes.

Colored text is bad, umkay.

You know as well as I that Batman is considered "human" in comics, and has no superhuman powers whatsoever, not even strength.

But if he's lifting like that, he's not, now is he?

Colored text is bad, umkay.

What else is is it for?
When making a determination about what kind of character to play, isn't it the fluff text that helps make the decision? Fluff text is part of what makes two similar character archetypes different.

Fluff text is for filler and to help newer players connect with the classes.

Colored text is bad, umkay.

What I did was simply give the Martial Artists the same two attacks per melee that all other Palladium characters get in the interest of making the Megaverse actually compatible.

Not all other Palladium characters get the bump. If they did, we wouldn't be talking about this. Perhaps those two attacks are the cost to players for their Chi powers and super high technology?

Colored text is bad, umkay.

I read the rule in HU Revised that all characters get Two attack, plus those gained from HtH and Boxing: I then applied that to every single Palladium game, because they are supposed to be compatible.
It wasn't to make Martial Artisits more survivable. It was to make the game live up to its' premise.

Justify how you want, you bumped them because without it, they don't slide in HU.

Colored text is bad, umkay.

You run the risk of being punched into paste: it's part of the life of being a hero. If you want to play safe, stay at home. Heroes take risks.
And, Saint George slays a dragon.
Perseus defeats Medusa.
Bellerophon kills the Chimera.
Theseus defeats the Minotaur.
Abraham Van Helsing kills Dracula.
David kills Goliath.
And so on. Weaker heroes slay more powerful monsters and opponents. It's a staple of heroic fiction, whether comic book super-heroes or classic mythology and folklore.

Not true.
I simply said a character like Darkseid wasn't likely to practice HtH combat.
But, a god like Ares would.
Or a Chinese Dragon certainly.
Heracles (if he were a villain) would be a heavy hitter with advanced martial arts skills: Pancration, Boxing, Wrestling, he's a super-powered Ken Shamrock.
Some do, some don't

.

That doesn't make sense. Under the Palladium system, Darkseid's ability to do his thing is dicatated by his HTH skills. More to the point, DS has to have had some serious training, or he'd be dead from Ares, a Chinese Dragon or Heracles. You don't get to the top by being a slacker.

Colored text is bad, umkay.

I read that article story. A lot has to do with the strategy the GM applies, and the opponents he cares to use, as well as the experience of the GM himself.
Let's be fair and honest: it the GM chooses (for example) a Hook Horror, or an Umber Hulk, he is not picking a master strategist. If the GM wanted a thinking character to use against the players, he would pick a different type of monster (a vampire perhaps).
You use the monster you choose, and if it gets' munched easily, perhaps you chose poorly, because you as GM should have known what your players were capable of.

Wildly off topic. A powerhouse villian will get rid of the small fries first, because they are easy and only take a single attack to swat down. In Palladium terms, DS can wack Bats and still keep his Auto-Parry and other defensives for whatever the JLA's heavy hitters can throw at him. That's a tactically adept villian. If DS were as dumb, as inept as the comics protray him to be, he'd have been replaced by a more cunning, smarter person.

[quoteI always had a separate issue with D&D dragons anyway, but that has no relevance here. Simply put, I thought they weren't powerful enough in D&D.[/quote]

Really really really off topic.

Colored text is bad, umkay.

This fight could go all kinds of ways: Why doesn't Darkseid simply use the Omega Effect and a Boom Tube and get them all as they sleep?
Teleport them into a Fire Pit?
Why is it that Superman can be teleported onto Apokalyps, but then he is able to dodge the O-Beams later in the same story? Can he dodge them or not? The answer is probably writer fiat, or in some cases Deus Ex.

Exactly. But we aren't discussing literary techniques, we're talking role playing games. Writers fiat, script immunity and mechanical gods in the heavens come off to most players as cheesey. Ideally, players should come away with that their characters came away with the victory because of their intellect, their passion, their insight. Using writers fiat to give players a pass harms that.

Also, colored text is bad, umkay.

In a past issue of the Avengers, Kang the Conqueror is heard to say about Captain America: "He is human, yes. But, with no more than his shield and his fighting spirit, he wins. And, he leads others to win. It is not about weapons. It is not about power. It is about Spirit and Cunning, and Courage, and Skill."

Off topic. Cap doesn't have any of those qualities any more then Zues is a horne dog. These are fictional characters that exist only in the minds of the writers. Everyone else is just reading about the writers' imaginations. RPGing is a whole differant level. RPGing is the totatlity of all the particpant's imaginations.

Colored text is bad, umkay.

That is the point of having such characters mixed in with Thor, Vision, Iron Man and company.

No, the point is that Cappy sells comics. The point of these mixed books is to engender a product that appeals to the largest possible spectrum of fans. So having Cappy mixed in with Thor will not only appeal to avengers fans, but also to thor fans and Cappy fans. That's the point.


OH! Almost forgot. Colored text is bad, umkay.

Herc killed the Hydra, but it was his cousin Iolus who gave him the flaming torch to burn the severed heads.

You could say that the Human Torch using his flame power is a form of combat training: but, again, HtH combat skills and Martial Arts are a separate thing from Powers, and their uses.

Actually, no they aren't. HTH skills dictate a varity of things in reguards to your power usesage.

Otherwise there would truly be little difference between The Human Torch and Iron Fist.

Running a pick-up Marvel Game years ago (17 years ago actually), we found ourselves pitting the Human Torch against the Japanese Sunfire. Torchie got his flaming butt kicked, because Sunfire knows Kung Fu (okay, actually Japanese martial arts, but you get the idea). Without fear of being burned, Torchie was chopped, kicked and bludgeoned into unconsciousness.

In Palladium, this would be the difference in HtH Basic vs HtH Karate, and the more advanced the style the greater the disparity.
As a concept character, the Nationalistic Sunfire gets Samurai level fighting arts: it's the concept of his character.
Johnny Storm does not: it's not important to him to learn how to fight past a certain level.
Martial Arts are, or can be, a centrally defining characteristic in the characters' life: it's what makes a Shaolin Monk or a Koga Ninja different from Joe who trains three days a week at McDojos'.

Some serious flaws here. Storm has been around longer, and has faced other guys who are immune to his flame. Experience and good tactical thinking should have given him the win. However, off topic.

More to the point. What made the Shaolin monk or Samurai such bad asses wasn't their fighting styles, it was their discipline. Anyone, human, mutant, alien, can be that skilled at combat. It just takes regimented practiced. And dispite the assertation to the contrary, it's not like the monks spent all their time training, or even most of it. If they had, they would have been very bad at all the other stuff that monk needs to do get through the day. Same with the Ninja. And while Samurai have fearsome reputations, that's only because of bad weather. I'd remind you that the few Mongolians who did get to shore met the Samurai, the Sams started their bit about who they were and how bad ass they were and the Mongols filled them full of arrows.

Adding N&SS to HU is a bad deal. It's adding elements to game that were originally so weak, the game from which they are taken couldn't support itself. It create unnessicarry drag, dividing players into haves and have nots in terms of bonus powers. It further slows down an already excruicateingly slow process by adding another level of dice checks and potential counter moves. Finally, it's odd ball powers, spesifically negitive chi, are entirely outside the game effects forcing the players to have to shift to playing N&SS instead of heroes.

[Sentinel]

Colored text is bad, umkay.

Again, other posters prefer the coloured text to help distinguish who said what when quoting within quoting.
You are in the minority. I've gotten more complaints contrary to you in the past on this.

That doesn't make sense. Under the Palladium system, Darkseid's ability to do his thing is dicatated by his HTH skills. More to the point, DS has to have had some serious training, or he'd be dead from Ares, a Chinese Dragon or Heracles. You don't get to the top by being a slacker.

No, Darkseids' rise to the top has more to do with his possessing the Omega Effect, advanced technology, great minions, and incredible physical powers.
In a strict fist fight, he gets beat by Supes, Wonder Woman, or his own son Orion, who is a far better fighter.

In the other examples, (Ares, et al), Darkseid would emerge victorious through the application of his other skills and resources. Not his skill in fisticuffs.

HTH skills dictate a varity of things in reguards to your power usesage.

My point being, you can select (for example) EE: Plasma, and select HtH Basic or HtH Martial Arts: choosing one has no impact on the other. You do not select HtH skills based on the powers you select, nor do you select powers based on your HtH choices. They are distinct.

Storm has been around longer, and has faced other guys who are immune to his flame. Experience and good tactical thinking should have given him the win.

Johnny lost because his opponent, who was as immune to flame as he was, beat him by virtue of having suoperior combat skills.
It's like Pee Wee Herman vs. Jet Li: one is clearly the superior fighter.
In this case, Torchies' fighting skill was severely lacking in compared to the more advanced techniques of Sunfire.

Justify how you want, you bumped them because without it, they don't slide in HU.

Again, no: I did it to make the games compatible. I believe in one set of consistant rules that aply to all the books universally.
Without going into every specific inconsistancy I have felt the need to adjust through House Rules, the +2 APM is one I applied to every character because HU characters got them. Bear in mind that I did this for Rifts, BtS, PFRPG, and AtB as well. If HU characters get four attacks total from HtH skills (3 for assassin), then ALL Palladium characters get them, or (for me) the Megaversal Compatibility breaks down.
It had nothing to do with qualifying N&SS characters as unable to hold in HU.

It's the same move.
No, they aren't: That's why there are separate guidelines for the system mechanics of applying them.
Roll dice, higher score. Just because there isn't a rule cover a spesific situation, doesn't mean that a character can't perform it or that it can't happen.
Yes, it does. If your HtH style doesn't provide a particular maneuver, you don't have it. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a series of distinct martial arts.
You may prefer the generic approach: I prefer that HtH Martial Arts, Tae Kwon Do, WuShu Tsung, and Jujutsu all be different from each other.
A player doens't need to have 'joint locks' on their combat chart to have it, after all they teach most of the useful ones at the woman's self defense courses.
That has no bearing on the game system mechanics which are contrary to that. Your style doesn't provide Flying Reverse Turning Kick? You should have selected Tae Kwon Do instead of Tai Chi, if you wanted that move.
This isn't a complex secert move that only the chosen ones know. Those moves you describe are for the most part available at any number of self defense schools right here in the US.

Again, actually, yes it does.
The reality of combat has no bearing really on Cinematic Four Colour combat, in which characters really can do long-range death-blows, high kick all day without getting kicked in the groin automatically, etc.

But if he's lifting like that, he's not, now is he?

Hey, the comics are the ones who made that qualifyer.
Since Batman is a normal human, and Superhuman PS is a Minor Power, then I guess he doesn't have Superhuman PS.

I skipped the off-topic tangeants by and large.

[Marrowlight]

Colored text is bad, umkay.

Again, other posters prefer the coloured text to help distinguish who said what when quoting within quoting.
You are in the minority. I've gotten more complaints contrary to you in the past on this.

Personally, I'll chime in with Taffy. For people who are reading, they prolly love your colored text. For people who actually address your posts/points and have to go back and re-edit your color text into actual lines of quotes by you for our responses? Yeah color text is a pain in the ass. You basically double the editing work we have to do just to respond to you.

BTW, that last post seemed to be getting a lil close to conversions, yes?

[Sentinel]

Colored text is bad, umkay.

Again, other posters prefer the coloured text to help distinguish who said what when quoting within quoting.
You are in the minority. I've gotten more complaints contrary to you in the past on this.

Personally, I'll chime in with Taffy. For people who are reading, they prolly love your colored text. For people who actually address your posts/points and have to go back and re-edit your color text into actual lines of quotes by you for our responses? Yeah color text is a pain in the ass. You basically double the editing work we have to do just to respond to you.

Can't please everybody.
There are probably more readers than "editors".

BTW, that last post seemed to be getting a lil close to conversions, yes?

Is it converting when you describe what the character doesn't have as opposed to translating them into game terms?
Who can say?

[Marrowlight]

Can't please everybody.
There are probably more readers than "editors".

Preferrential treatment for the faceless masses versus your contemporaries? You make me sick.

[Sentinel]

Can't please everybody.
There are probably more readers than "editors".

Preferrential treatment for the faceless masses versus your contemporaries? You make me sick.

Of course I do: I'm your Good Twin. It's what I do.

[The Artist Formerly]

Colored text is bad, umkay.

Again, other posters prefer the coloured text to help distinguish who said what when quoting within quoting.
You are in the minority. I've gotten more complaints contrary to you in the past on this.

Personally, I'll chime in with Taffy. For people who are reading, they prolly love your colored text. For people who actually address your posts/points and have to go back and re-edit your color text into actual lines of quotes by you for our responses? Yeah color text is a pain in the ass. You basically double the editing work we have to do just to respond to you.

BTW, that last post seemed to be getting a lil close to conversions, yes?

Eh. I'm just going to not respond to him, I can't read what he posted when it's in blue with the particular fourm browser I'm using. And Nimmy has enough trouble on his plate as it is.