Rifts Roads

[grandmaster z0b]

90% of North America is wilderness, except for small pockets of civilisation like Chi-Town. So what are the conditions of roads like in your games? Areas like the CS state of Chi-Town sound fairly developed so I would assume there is basic roads but what about Missouri, Arkansas and Oklahoma?
There would surely have to be some road from the LoneStar complex to Chi-Town via New Chillicothe, but which way would it go, through Oklahoma and Missouri or straight up through Kansas and then east?

I'm thinking the old freeway that goes north to Amarillo then east through Oklahoma and then NE towards St Louis but rebuilt to turn due north towards New Chillicothe would seem ideal, however the books claim Oklahoma is untamed wilderness and the "New Frontier" and you'd think the CS would have some presence along the route to potect the roads.
You could say that the CS uses fleets of Deaths Head Transports to move resources and forces, but even then that would be a heavy drain on military forces especially when the CS is at war.
I'm going to assume that large stretches of roads exist, often old sections of pre-Rifts highways rebuilt or repaired at least basically by the CS and local kingdoms. After all a small investment in maintaining roads (if not actual security along them) would go a long way in encouraging and making money off trade.

Also all those CS APCs would need fairly flat ground to get around - they wouldn't be much good in dense forest.

It's not so bad for Iron Heart as they could use a combination of hovercraft and ships to move goods and resources from ChiTown to The City of Iron, across the great lakes. What about NG and MI- would they have a road running south to ChiTown through Wisconsin, or would they too rely on air and sea transport?

I'd love to hear your ideas...

[Spectre]

The two roads in Oklahoma you are thinking of are I-40 and I-44. I-35 is also a major highway that runs north and south between Texas and Kansas. All three intersect in OKC.
My players have not made it there but the roads are basically intact. Mostly broken , full of pot holes, and possibly broken with weeds growing through. They are also going to find the remains of the AFB that is in OKC roughly at the crossroads at all three.

[shadrak]

I would think roads would not be impossible, since they are pretty close, but water would be cheaper and pretty easy as well (since there is easy access on the great lakes)

[Killer Cyborg]

Also all those CS APCs would need fairly flat ground to get around - they wouldn't be much good in dense forest.

A Mark V APC has laser turrets on it. These lasers do 6d6 MD and have a 4000' range. If an APC needs to make a path through a forest, it can certainly do it. Sure, it would take a while.
But only the first time through those woods. Later trips would follow the same path. If enough time passes, a few small trees might grow up in the way, but an APC could run right over those.

[grandmaster z0b]

Also all those CS APCs would need fairly flat ground to get around - they wouldn't be much good in dense forest.

A Mark V APC has laser turrets on it. These lasers do 6d6 MD and have a 4000' range. If an APC needs to make a path through a forest, it can certainly do it. Sure, it would take a while.
But only the first time through those woods. Later trips would follow the same path. If enough time passes, a few small trees might grow up in the way, but an APC could run right over those.

Well that's a good point as far as those APCs go.
It's certainly possible and they may use that feature often when going into unknown territory but not very efficient or effective for day to day travel. The lasers could start forest fires and there would be a lot of smoke, they wouldn't completely atomise the trees, they would just knock them down and then have to push past them. It also doesn't eliminate very steep or very uneven ground, gorges, river crossings etc.

In the end it would save time and make money for the CS to build or at least maintain some basic roads between their main cities (Chi-Town, New Chillicothe, Fort El Dorado, The City of Iron and the Lone Star Complex) and there would almost definately be a major road from The City of Iron to Free Quebec.

[Killer Cyborg]

Also all those CS APCs would need fairly flat ground to get around - they wouldn't be much good in dense forest.

A Mark V APC has laser turrets on it. These lasers do 6d6 MD and have a 4000' range. If an APC needs to make a path through a forest, it can certainly do it. Sure, it would take a while.
But only the first time through those woods. Later trips would follow the same path. If enough time passes, a few small trees might grow up in the way, but an APC could run right over those.

Well that's a good point as far as those APCs go.
It's certainly possible and they may use that feature often when going into unknown territory but not very efficient or effective for day to day travel. The lasers could start forest fires and there would be a lot of smoke

This is actually something I've wondered about. Laser printes don't catch paper on fire. I've seen plenty of laser wood carvings that show no signs of burning.
Would lasers really catch trees on fire? It seems logical that they would, but I've started to wonder.

In any case, that's why they have those Fire Fighting Missiles, I guess.

they wouldn't completely atomise the trees, they would just knock them down and then have to push past them.

Probably not to tough to do.
Really, they probably have special gear for path-clearing though. If only a snowplow-like ram for the front of an APC.

It also doesn't eliminate very steep or very uneven ground, gorges, river crossings etc.

Absolutely true. Bridges and such would need maintainance. Uneven ground would need to be evened (if it was uneven enough to post a hazard).

In the end it would save time and make money for the CS to build or at least maintain some basic roads between their main cities (Chi-Town, New Chillicothe, Fort El Dorado, The City of Iron and the Lone Star Complex) and there would almost definately be a major road from The City of Iron to Free Quebec.

Agreed.

[grandmaster z0b]

The two roads in Oklahoma you are thinking of are I-40 and I-44. I-35 is also a major highway that runs north and south between Texas and Kansas. All three intersect in OKC.
My players have not made it there but the roads are basically intact. Mostly broken , full of pot holes, and possibly broken with weeds growing through. They are also going to find the remains of the AFB that is in OKC roughly at the crossroads at all three.

Thanks heaps, I'm thinking of using whats left of the 44 as the unofficial border between CS Missouri and Whykin/Kingsdale, not that many people would use that road after that as it leads straight to The Devil's Gate.

I think they would use the I-80 that goes west from Chi-Town to Des Moines and then the I-35 south where it would split between a road to New Chillicothe and the old road towards Kansas City. However they would probably turn south onto the old US Route 71 before reaching Kansas City and then onto the I-44 to go to LoneStar, or continue south to Fort El Dorado.

There would probably be new roads between ChiTown and New Chillcothe and then down past old Springfield towards Fort El Dorado. EDIT: It looks like it may be easier to use the old rail line from Chicago to Kansas than build a whole new road. Or follow the 56 and build a new road from Springfield Illinois to Springfield Missouri to avoid St Louis.

There would also be a new road that connects MercTown (New Paduka), Whykin, Kingsdale and then joins the CS roads mentioned above.

[Killer Cyborg]

Unless you want to go the route of MDC roads, then the problem is that there would be nothing left of roads from our times.
Well, there might be a bit left, but it would be broken into chunks and would resemble cobblestone more than the smooth asphalt we're used to.
As for railroads, they'd be gone. The wooden ties would have rotted, and the steel would have rusted away.
We're talking 300 or so year of sitting outside.
Some of the tunnels might be standing, and some of the landscape might reveal that once a road might have run through the area, but most of the signs of the roads' existence would be long gone. Rusted, rotted, and washed away.

[grandmaster z0b]

I'm not so sure about that, a lot of roads in europe are built on the remains of old Roman Roads, and most of them fell into disrepair during the dark ages. That didn't mean that local kingdoms didn't occasionally repair them, or rebuild them when they wanted to build a new one. Most of the time roads are dictated by physical geographic features, so even if there's virtually nothing left then it would often be in roughly the same place.

Note I'm not thinking of these roads as interstate highways but just large roads that follow the old paths.

Also I know it's not canon, but in my games a lot of Chi-Town technology and infastructure is based on what's left of NEMA's efforts to maintain order. It's possible they kept at least some of the roads together during the dark ages.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm not so sure about that, a lot of roads in europe are built on the remains of old Roman Roads, and most of them fell into disrepair during the dark ages. That didn't mean that local kingdoms didn't occasionally repair them, or rebuild them when they wanted to build a new one. Most of the time roads are dictated by physical geographic features, so even if there's virtually nothing left then it would often be in roughly the same place.

Good point.

[grandmaster z0b]

Of course it also easier for me to do it that way rather than having to re-create an entire road network

[Nekira Sudacne]

Also all those CS APCs would need fairly flat ground to get around - they wouldn't be much good in dense forest.

A Mark V APC has laser turrets on it. These lasers do 6d6 MD and have a 4000' range. If an APC needs to make a path through a forest, it can certainly do it. Sure, it would take a while.
But only the first time through those woods. Later trips would follow the same path. If enough time passes, a few small trees might grow up in the way, but an APC could run right over those.

Well that's a good point as far as those APCs go.
It's certainly possible and they may use that feature often when going into unknown territory but not very efficient or effective for day to day travel. The lasers could start forest fires and there would be a lot of smoke

This is actually something I've wondered about. Laser printes don't catch paper on fire. I've seen plenty of laser wood carvings that show no signs of burning.

You ever taken a dried leaf in the Fall, and held a magnifying glass to it for a while until it caught fire?

that's all a laser is basically--magnified light.

the thing is, you can control the temprature to various effects. the reasons why laser printers and laser wood carvings don't set the whole thing on fire is that _they are calcluated to not be strong enough to bring the material to ignition point_

now, if you take the laser out of a laser printer, and point it at a tank, will it burn though the hull? no, because it's not strong enough to.

However, KC, the entire scientific premsice behind laser damage is it penetrates the target, and sinse the power of a laser is directly related to the heat, the higher the temprature, the hotter it gets.

Now, we can assume any laser hot enough to burn though MDC material is, by definition, going to be EXTREMELY hot, sinse the entire thing that LETS a laser burn though anything is heat, and heat alone. heat IS the power behind a laser that gives it it's power.

Frankly, KC, if a laser isn't hot enough to set a tree (an SDC material) on fire, it's not going to be hot enough to do MD, period.

[Drakenred®™©]

Unless you want to go the route of MDC roads, then the problem is that there would be nothing left of roads from our times.
Well, there might be a bit left, but it would be broken into chunks and would resemble cobblestone more than the smooth asphalt we're used to.
As for railroads, they'd be gone. The wooden ties would have rotted, and the steel would have rusted away.
We're talking 300 or so year of sitting outside.
Some of the tunnels might be standing, and some of the landscape might reveal that once a road might have run through the area, but most of the signs of the roads' existence would be long gone. Rusted, rotted, and washed away.

Actualy a lot of modern raillines dont use wood ties, but are increasingly converting to something like this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 3%B6gl.jpg

due to lower long term maintience.

[Drakenred®™©]

one thing to consider, the roads were probably burried when the Yellowstone Super calderal went off, the net result being a layer of what would basicaly become soil over the road which would tend to inhibit the growth of trees or even bushes, so you would have theis odd long stretches of parralel grass strips that go on for miles

[grandmaster z0b]

Where is this thing about the Yellowstone super volcano? I heard people speak about it and I've seen a RL doco on it but is it canon?
I presume it must be in Chaos Earth yes?

[Thinyser]

I think that many pre Rifts interstates would have been redone in MDC concrete, and as such they would have mostly survived (some cracking and even less buckling of the roadways, but many overpasses/bridges lost due to the massive earthquakes).

Other roads, such as regular highways and county roads, would have still been made of traditional materials and would probably decay in pretty short order in any place with a freeze thaw cycle.

Down south however there is a chance that because there is no freeze thaw cycle (frost isn't gonna freeze the ground under the raod) they might be in a useable condition especially where the vegitation is sparce. I would think that the dry hot conditions of Texas, Oklahoma, and the other states to the southwest would have a lot of normal blactop/concrete that would still be useable (at least better than going overland). But places to the south east where they get lots of moisture and plants grow well they would likely be overgrown.

You would still have to find your way across the broken bridges and overpasses but all in all it would be easier travel on even a delapidated raod than pure overland travel.

[Thinyser]

Unless you want to go the route of MDC roads, then the problem is that there would be nothing left of roads from our times.
Well, there might be a bit left, but it would be broken into chunks and would resemble cobblestone more than the smooth asphalt we're used to.
As for railroads, they'd be gone. The wooden ties would have rotted, and the steel would have rusted away.
We're talking 300 or so year of sitting outside.
Some of the tunnels might be standing, and some of the landscape might reveal that once a road might have run through the area, but most of the signs of the roads' existence would be long gone. Rusted, rotted, and washed away.

Actualy a lot of modern raillines dont use wood ties, but are increasingly converting to something like this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 3%B6gl.jpg

due to lower long term maintience.

And in a lot of the dryer places the rails wouldn't rust very much either... though for rail travel there really isn't anything in rifts...IIRC even the TW iron horse train hovers.

[shadrak]

I believe Chaos Earth, but I have seen it mentioned 5 or 6 times in Madhaven

[CyCo]

There is a book called Eternity Road by Jack McDevitt.

It's a post apocalypse novel about the society that worships the Roadbuilders. It's an interesting read, but certainly not the best out there. May be of interest to you lot thinking about roads in Rifts.

[Thinyser]

Where is this thing about the Yellowstone super volcano? I heard people speak about it and I've seen a RL doco on it but is it canon?
I presume it must be in Chaos Earth yes?

Yes, it is. Looks on page 14 in the Chaos Earth book. The volcanic ash coming from Yellowstone super volcano recover most of the United States and the Canada of several feet of layer of dust.

xanatos

Trouble is what CE says happened (covers the western half of the U.S. from the coast to Nebraska) is not what some scientist theorize would happen, based on previous ashfalls (scroll about 2/3 of the way down this page). They think it would cover a some area to the southwest and northeast of the actal volcano but most of the ashfall would be spread out to the southeast of the caldera because the jetstream, and the prevailing winds, blow west to east carrying the debris with it... Notice the smaller tear drop shaped ashfall that has almost no ash to the west of the actuall volcano. It depends alot on how big is the eruption, and what is the weather like for the next few hours and days following the eruption.

Also note how the Bishop ash fall is almost totally northeast of the volcano (located in Long Valley California) because it was swept along by the winds.

There is also another larger supervolcano in Colorado that blew about 30 million years ago that doubled Yellowstone's biggest bang (2500 cubic km) with a mind blowing 5000 CUBIC KILOMETERS of ash and debris ejected. Thats a 17.1 Km (10.65 Mile) cube being pulverized and blown into the atmosphere.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Just a note, for transportation of good between the States, the CS relies HEAVILY on the Mississippi River and the Great Lakes...the natural interstate of North America.

~ Josh

[Thinyser]

Just a note, for transportation of good between the States, the CS relies HEAVILY on the Mississippi River and the Great Lakes...the natural interstate of North America.

~ Josh

Only problem is that old Miss (pretty much) only goes north and south... and its a very winding path (as any old river is never straight) so when speed is an issue its better to fly or take a straight(er) road.

Though for mass movement of goods, or people for that matter (so long as they're not in a hurry), water ways are a good choice... so long as there is a viable one near by.

Also on waterways you have pirates (arrrgh!) on roads you have bandits... and everybody knows that bandits are nicer than pirates

[Subjugator]

Also all those CS APCs would need fairly flat ground to get around - they wouldn't be much good in dense forest.

A Mark V APC has laser turrets on it. These lasers do 6d6 MD and have a 4000' range. If an APC needs to make a path through a forest, it can certainly do it. Sure, it would take a while.
But only the first time through those woods. Later trips would follow the same path. If enough time passes, a few small trees might grow up in the way, but an APC could run right over those.

Well that's a good point as far as those APCs go.
It's certainly possible and they may use that feature often when going into unknown territory but not very efficient or effective for day to day travel. The lasers could start forest fires and there would be a lot of smoke

This is actually something I've wondered about. Laser printes don't catch paper on fire. I've seen plenty of laser wood carvings that show no signs of burning.

You ever taken a dried leaf in the Fall, and held a magnifying glass to it for a while until it caught fire?

that's all a laser is basically--magnified light.

the thing is, you can control the temprature to various effects. the reasons why laser printers and laser wood carvings don't set the whole thing on fire is that _they are calcluated to not be strong enough to bring the material to ignition point_

now, if you take the laser out of a laser printer, and point it at a tank, will it burn though the hull? no, because it's not strong enough to.

However, KC, the entire scientific premsice behind laser damage is it penetrates the target, and sinse the power of a laser is directly related to the heat, the higher the temprature, the hotter it gets.

Now, we can assume any laser hot enough to burn though MDC material is, by definition, going to be EXTREMELY hot, sinse the entire thing that LETS a laser burn though anything is heat, and heat alone. heat IS the power behind a laser that gives it it's power.

Frankly, KC, if a laser isn't hot enough to set a tree (an SDC material) on fire, it's not going to be hot enough to do MD, period.

Of course it could be hot enough to punch right through the tree without setting it on fire. If it's a focused enough laser requiring a short enough time to do the damage, it could punch through fast enough to only cause damage to the part of the tree it's actually hitting, and not be there long enough to heat anything else up.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

You ever taken a dried leaf in the Fall, and held a magnifying glass to it for a while until it caught fire?

No.
Or rather, I have burned all kinds of things, but I have never gotten anything to stay lit once I took the magnifying glass away.
Once that concentrated light stops hitting the target, the best it does is smoulder a bit. I suppose if I worked at it, I might have been able to carefully blow on it and maybe get it to eventually into an actual flame.

Now, we can assume any laser hot enough to burn though MDC material is, by definition, going to be EXTREMELY hot, sinse the entire thing that LETS a laser burn though anything is heat, and heat alone. heat IS the power behind a laser that gives it it's power.

Not exactly. High powered lasers can actually vaporize the target.
In any case, the area heated by the laser is very small; pretty much the area of the beam.
Since what is hit by the beam is effectively disintegrated, there is nothing there to burn. The material around the edges of the hole don't generally have time to absorb heat from the beam before the beam is going straight through the target, which means that it is no longer transmitting heat to the rest of the object.
Just like how the fire goes out when you take the magnifying glass away.

[grandmaster z0b]

Just a note, for transportation of good between the States, the CS relies HEAVILY on the Mississippi River and the Great Lakes...the natural interstate of North America.

~ Josh

Only problem is that old Miss (pretty much) only goes north and south... and its a very winding path (as any old river is never straight) so when speed is an issue its better to fly or take a straight(er) road.

Though for mass movement of goods, or people for that matter (so long as they're not in a hurry), water ways are a good choice... so long as there is a viable one near by.

Also on waterways you have pirates (arrrgh!) on roads you have bandits... and everybody knows that bandits are nicer than pirates

Another problem is the mega nexuses at St Louis - the Devil's Gate and the Indian Mound are on either side of the river. In fact all of the mississippi is in a high magic zone and therefore not the safest way to travel, but I agree the waterways will be used to some degree and most especially the great lakes.

[grandmaster z0b]

Uh, if the Supervolcano was canon.. wouldnt that mean the farmlands in Missouri, Kansas, Iowa would be under a couple feet of volcanic ash, hence wiping out the breadbasket of the midwest. Which leads to no Chitown since theres no food.

Lasers with their extremely high focal temperatures (needed for them to do MDC type damage) would literally explode trees since trees contain large amounts of water and sap.

Ah I think the supervolcano went off during the early dark ages, so if anything the ash would fertilise the ground.

[grandmaster z0b]

I really like the idea of an entire campagin focusing on travelling from one part of North America to another. Say from Arzno to Old Bones or something.

[Drakenred®™©]

To be honest, roads hardly figure into our games. I guess part of it is that we don't think enough about the background infastructure, but also we never use vehicles anymore. We've learned that the way our group seems to attract random Rifts and undue attention from deities, having a vehicle just isn't worth it since it's impossible to keep around for any amount of time.

that and most of the published Vehcils in RIFTS are often literaly rolling (if not walking) office buildings

Seriously, a Real World Bradley is 9.75 ft tall, an M-1 is roughly 8 ft tall.

a Mk IX APC is 20 ft tall, the mountaineer ATV is 18 ft.

The more realistic Iron Maiden is 11 ft tall which means its still taller than the US Army 5 ton Truck. (3.3 M Vs 2.845m for the M-1083)

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

To be honest, roads hardly figure into our games. I guess part of it is that we don't think enough about the background infastructure, but also we never use vehicles anymore. We've learned that the way our group seems to attract random Rifts and undue attention from deities, having a vehicle just isn't worth it since it's impossible to keep around for any amount of time.

that and most of the published Vehcils in RIFTS are often literaly rolling (if not walking) office buildings

Seriously, a Real World Bradley is 9.75 ft tall, an M-1 is roughly 8 ft tall.

a Mk IX APC is 20 ft tall, the mountaineer ATV is 18 ft.

The more realistic Iron Maiden is 11 ft tall which means its still taller than the US Army 5 ton Truck. (3.3 M Vs 2.845m for the M-1083)

Well considering the growing size of American trucks and SUVs, that's hardly surprising.



~ Josh

[Rimmerdal]

I really like the idea of an entire campagin focusing on travelling from one part of North America to another. Say from Arzno to Old Bones or something.

Rift: Road trips....

while on the surface it seems odd it would be a good game...Hmmmm that inspires a a request for my PBEM GM....thanks!

[Razzinold]

Come on people, have we forgotten our old school roots ? i.e. Mad Max, Mad Max: The Road Warrior. A lot of flat open desert spaces (that would be flat enough for treads, robot legs or wheels to cross) also there where a couple "main roads" that where intact. I personally add a little more damage to the roads I use (i know it would have cost more on those beautiful Australian films to do that) but I like the way the movie had the streets littered with broken down vehicles, skeletons, and the remains of little shanty towns built along the roads. And don't forget roaming bandits and CS Patrols. Check Rifts Australia, I believe they mention something specific about roads in there. I know this was mostly done so certain Occ's made more sense (kinda would suck without roads to ride on, when you are a roadganger) so if they can survive there, it seems logical that some roads survived in the Americas.

[grandmaster z0b]

Yeah I've always had some sort of roads in my games, although they're not really Mad Max roads unless I'm playing in Texas or Australia.

I think North American Rifts roads would follow old highways/roads and some would be in good repair having being repaired/maintained by the CS or a local kingdom, others would be simple paths worn down from traffic and usage.

I'm in the process of fleshing out my understanding of Rifts North America, flora, fauna, roads, rail, the biggest states/kingdoms/powers and their respective borders. Whilst looking at this I conclude that there must be roads, and extensive ones at that, otherwise the states are too far apart for significant trade. The CS could and would often use Deaths Head Transports to move military resources, and in a nation like the CS thsis would probably account for a large amount of the goods being moved around. However it couldn't account for all and there would be many free traders and merchants that would be moving shipments back and forth.

[Daikuma]

90% of North America is wilderness, except for small pockets of civilisation like Chi-Town. So what are the conditions of roads like in your games? Areas like the CS state of Chi-Town sound fairly developed so I would assume there is basic roads but what about Missouri, Arkansas and Oklahoma?

I drove through Arkansas and Oklahoma a few years back...the roads there even then were in pitiful condition. By 2373 A.D. (roughly) they should be sandy strips running through the wilderness, if that!

[Library Ogre]

Ok, anyone want to guess what roads the CS has repaired? I mean, it does help that the US cut them through the mountains, so I doubt the CS would ignore those that could be repair.

[grandmaster z0b]

Ok, anyone want to guess what roads the CS has repaired? I mean, it does help that the US cut them through the mountains, so I doubt the CS would ignore those that could be repair.

Check page one for my ideas on roads

[Library Ogre]

Ok, anyone want to guess what roads the CS has repaired? I mean, it does help that the US cut them through the mountains, so I doubt the CS would ignore those that could be repair.

Check page one for my ideas on roads

I'm still on page one.

[grandmaster z0b]

Ok, anyone want to guess what roads the CS has repaired? I mean, it does help that the US cut them through the mountains, so I doubt the CS would ignore those that could be repair.

Check page one for my ideas on roads

I'm still on page one.

This is what I meant:

I'm thinking of using whats left of the I-44 as the unofficial border between CS Missouri and Whykin/Kingsdale, not that many people would use that road after that as it leads straight to The Devil's Gate.

I think they would use the I-80 that goes west from Chi-Town to Des Moines and then the I-35 south where it would split between a road to New Chillicothe and the old road towards Kansas City. However they would probably turn south onto the old US Route 71 before reaching Kansas City and then onto the I-44 to go to LoneStar, or continue south to Fort El Dorado.

There would probably be new roads between ChiTown and New Chillcothe and then down past old Springfield towards Fort El Dorado. EDIT: It looks like it may be easier to use the old rail line from Chicago to Kansas than build a whole new road. Or follow the 56 and build a new road from Springfield Illinois to Springfield Missouri to avoid St Louis.

There would also be a new road that connects MercTown (New Paduka), Whykin, Kingsdale and then joins the CS roads mentioned above.