Buddha's Palm?

[Library Ogre]

Ok, I was watching "Iron Monkey" a few nights ago and I was wondering how y'all would represent the corrupt monk's power of Buddha's Palm... a poisoning of the blood. I'm thinking some sort of Atemi, but the book is al the way on the other side of the room, ya know?

[drewkitty ~..~]

In Kung Fu Hustle, Buddah's palm was a MA attack that was sort of like a fist gesture.

I haven't seen Iron Monkey in a long time, sence it came out to the screen.

[sinestus]

Chi + Atemi ... basically an advanced Martial Arts power...


back when I was still working full swing on N&SS stuff I debated much with making special attacks like this by creating "strings" or "trees" of martial arts powers (as part of the "modular martial arts" system i was working on)

a good chunk of the old Jet Li movies carry similar ideas.... and "cool special techniques" are kinda the bread and butter of classic kung fu flicks...

by the book, it'd strike me as a special Dim Mak (blood poisoning means the character doesn't regenerate chi)

but screw by the book...

either swing it into the mystic stuff (just burns chi) or make it akin to the Demon Hunter BH, were only a select few can learn it...

[Colt47]

In Kung Fu Hustle, Buddah's palm was a MA attack that was sort of like a fist gesture.

I haven't seen Iron Monkey in a long time, sence it came out to the screen.

I'll say one thing about that Buddah's Palm: That thing from Kung Fu Hustle is like the atom bomb of fist gestures. It left a hand print the size of King Kongs foot in the ground.

[Mantisking]

Buddha's Palm is actually a HK movie creation in the early 50s or 60s.

Considering there's a Buddha Palm form in the style I study, I think you're wrong.

In HK comics, technically the MA has 9 strokes only, none of which are fists, but open palm techniques.

The later of the 9 strokes are all something like what Stephen Chow execute in the final showdown in Kungfu Hustle.

If I remember correctly, it was called "The Force of Buddha's Wrath" or something like that. I'll have to dig out the issue and check.

[Mantisking]

you practice that?! then you are the only person I know who does it. it does not exist in China or any other chinese community, not as an actual form of martial art anyway.

It is an advanced form in Wah Lum. If I remember correctly, it is borrowed from another style though I don't know which one.

[Mantisking]

Keep in mind that Wah Lum didn't hit the US until Pui got to the States. Just because it is in the style does not mean that it isn't a recent adaptation or addition to the style.

True. To find that out you'd have to compare the forms available to the Hong Kong students and the American students at that time.

[Mantisking]

Err... Wah Lum is not a style but a school. It seems it teaches Taichi and Master Chan is the grandmaster of the Northern Praying Mantis System.

Actually, it is a style. It's called Wah Lum Pai. It happens to be one of the many Northern Praying Mantis systems.

[Mantisking]

Sorry I seem to be having problem translating "Tam Tui".

Tam Tui is generally translated as "Seeking Leg".

[Kryzbyn]

Ha-Do-Ken.
Energy Fist?
Its what Ken and Ryu shout when they throw fireballs in Street Fighter II video games.

[Library Ogre]

And I suddenly got that sig line, Alejandro. Never had until just now.

[MASTERMIND]

It has been a long time since I studied the martial arts and this conversation interested me but before I posted I decided to do some research. At first I couldn't find any reliable information on Buddha's Palm. All I found at first were from fictional sources like the movies and literature mentioned above. I even found a couple outrageous website links with people with flaming hands and what not. I was about to give up and just post my opinions about Mantisking's instruction being some kind of new adaptation when I found a solid hit.

http://www.plumblossom.net/Articles/Inside_Kung-Fu/May1999/index.html

The link is a VERY interesting article with excellent photographs. Fut jeung kuen aka Buddha's Palm is one of the four forms they talk about in the article. The sources for the article are VERY reliable so I think it is safe to say that Buddha's Palm really does exist and has been around for a long, long time - much longer than the fiction that brought the term into our pop culture.

Just thought I would share this with you folks. Enjoy!

[MASTERMIND]

You definitely haven't bursted my bubble.

Even dating back to the 1800s this internal form (even if they made the name up at that time - hell, they probably did) already outdates the fictional references that brought the term into popular culture.

Also of note, the martial arts, especially in China, have never been static. They have changed and evolved over time. Some martial arts are extremely young as well. I remembered a couple but while researching I found reference to six different arts considered modern (less than 200 years old) but all are valid and real. Of note, none of them developed in the United States, especially not San Fransisco.

Switching gears, that is a pretty bold claim Darkmax, not one that can stand on its own without any premises. You are going to need to show me something to back the claim up before I buy that one. The burden of proof lies with you my friend and if you can prove such a profound statement then I will listen.

I don't see the correlation with San Fransisco having much to do with it. Are you stating that most chinese (or cantonese) martial arts masters teaching in San Fransisco are making up martial arts? Are you saying they are teaching their style but giving certain parts different names? Not sure what you are reaching at but a blanket statement like that doesn't hold much weight.

I am not an expert on naming conventions when it comes to martial arts. However, I ask you to reread the article. The name of the martial art is NOT Fut Jeung Kuen, nor did I claim it was. Fut Jeung Kuen is an internal form that is a part of the martial art. The name of the martial art is Choy Lee Fut and based on several references (none of which are in San Fransisco, I checked) is currently one of the most popular styles of kungfu in China. Now you can claim the Chinese are being dishonest or deceptive with the U.S. about their style but I doubt they would do the same to their own people, their own students in China.

I know the internet is not the best source but just do a Yahoo! or Google on Choy Lee Fut. You are going to get hundreds of hits, many of which are in Chinese. There are also over two dozen books written about or containing information about Choy Lee Fut in circulation today. Sounds like a lot of writing for a martial art that is "not even real".

And on your last point, I did find a martial art from China. You just didn't read the article completely.

I don't study Choy Lee Fut, nor am I an expert on it. However, once I stumbled into the right place and had the right name to use in my searches I found a lot of information.

Sorry if this post seems confrontational, I just get annoyed when someone tosses possibly erroneous facts at me as an argument without any validation to their statement. Anyone who has studied critical thinking or the structure of valid arguments and legitimate/illegitimate assumptions knows what I am talking about.

Bring back some references for your counter points or flesh out the ideas a bit more. I actually do want to hear your response, I enjoy these kinds of discussions and I always learn something from them. Teach me something if I am wrong!

[MASTERMIND]

1) You are chinese.

Irrelevant. In your mind you think it is relevant because you are thinking something like, "I am chinese and I study martial arts and I know several masters and I have devoted my life to this subject and..." But the statement does not stand alone. I am mostly Scottish but that doesnt mean I know everything about playing the bagpipes or wearing kilt. I don't know anything about those subjects.

I have known many chinese americans during my 30 years on this planet and even knew one chinese guy who was in the U.S. going to school. Only one of them knew anything about martial arts (and that was because he was taking a Tae Kwon Do class of all things). So you being chinese really has no relevancy on your claim. Once again, I ask you to revise your statement or flesh out the idea and come back to me.

2) You say you did not say the martial art form was illegitimate.

Um, actually you did. I quote you, "They date back to 1800s only... that's not old, in fact that's not even real." These are your words. Scroll up and read them on your post.

3) Bruce Lee developed his martial arts in the USA.

Yes, he did.

However, I did not mention Bruce Lee nor did I mention the martial art form he developed. I said I stumbled across information on 6 different martial art forms that are all less than a couple hundred years old, all of which were born in China. None of those six were Jeet Kune Do. To name them so you know which ones I was referring to, Do Pi Kung Fu, Jing Quen Do, Kuen-Do, An Chai, San Shou (or San Da), and San soo. All of these are modern (or young, which ever term you prefer) martial arts that are legitimate.

4) Naming of Techniques

Okay, that is fine. I don't dispute that fact at all. I did not claim Buddha's Palm has been around forever. I did not even say it was an original form. For all I know you are right and some guy changed the name of a technique to buddha's palm. No matter what its original name, it is still a technique called buddha's palm now. Which means it exists.

5) Burden of Proof

Philosophy Logic 101 - The Burden of Proof lies with the person who made the claim.

I made a claim that there is a martial art that contains within it a form called Buddha's Palm. I bore the Burden of Proof for that fact. I found the Burden of Proof in internet form as well as written form and also in multiple languages. You have made a counter-claim that the martial art is not real. Therefore, you bear the burden of proof to prove your claim. That is the basis of debate and one of the cornerstones of Logic as a discipline my friend.

Like I said the internet is not always accurate. I would never dare to argue that it is. What I will say though is that we are not talking about gossip on our favorite hollywood celebrity. We are not talking about opinion. You made a statement that the martial art is not real. That is a very exact statement. My claim is that it is real. Here is a link to a quick Google search on the martial art.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=choy+li+fut

That is a lot of hits from a lot of different sources for a martial art that is not real. I couldnt get the local public library search to link properly so here is an Amazon book search on the same subject.

http://www.amazon.com/Choy-Unique-Literary-Books-World/dp/0865680620/sr=1-1/qid=1169829696/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-9443627-7299320?ie=UTF8&s=books

Now following logic to counter that evidence you need to provide equally compelling evidence to the contrary.

*****

Any way to get this one back on subject?

[MASTERMIND]

Okay, I can agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that.

Thank you for taking a moment with your explanation of your roots. A state such as that has much more validity.

Being real and being legitimate are not the same thing but are similar. By stating that something is not real you call into question its legitimacy in regards to its existence (which you did btw).

I agree buddha's palm is not ancient. I just feel compelled to point out one last time that whether it was ancient or not was not the issue. The original issue was whether it existed at all or not.

Do Pi Kung Fu - combination of Hung quan, Choy Li Fut and Hop Gar, not a sport

Jing Quen Do - a practical combination of several chinese martial arts, called the China's Police Combat Method because that is who it was designed for and what it is primarily used for - not a sport

Kuen-Do - a derivative of the Wing Chun martial arts - also, not a sport

An Chai - can't find my links anymore, might be a sport

San Shou - yes, this one is a sport

San soo - San soo is partially sport based but also based in real self defense

I can easily see that. Going back to fiction how many movies do we have based on one school going up against another school? I know they are just telling stories but there are SO many that I have to agree that it probably happens quite a bit in real life.

I agree. Anything can be said on the internet or placed on a website or written in a book or passed on by spoken word for that matter. I just find it hard to disbelieve the websites when SO many sources say the same thing and the only opposition to it is a single voice, your claim also posted on the internet and still failing to bring forth any evidence to support your position.

I can't comment on China and what is coming out of it these days, hehe.



And so people don't think we were arguing uselessly, lol...

Ah man... I honestly just forgot what I was going to say. Oh well... I won't argue with you anymore. I am firmly pushing myself into the agree to disagree on the subject from this moment forward. Please return to your regularly scheduled megaversal postings of interest.

[Mantisking]

http://www.plumblossom.net/Articles/Inside_Kung-Fu/May1999/index.html

The link is a VERY interesting article with excellent photographs. Fut jeung kuen aka Buddha's Palm is one of the four forms they talk about in the article. The sources for the article are VERY reliable so I think it is safe to say that Buddha's Palm really does exist and has been around for a long, long time - much longer than the fiction that brought the term into our pop culture.

Just thought I would share this with you folks. Enjoy!

Thanks for posting that. It's going to provide me with more information to build things from.

they date back to 1800s only.... that's not old, in fact that's not even real.

Really? Age does not neccesarily imply realness. Aikido only dates back to the 1950s, yet it is a fully realized style.

Also notice it is in San Francisco.... not exactly a very credible source to begin with.

The location of the source doesn't add or subtract credibility. Doc Fai Wong is a well known Choy Li Fut stylist, he just happens to have his school in San Francisco. Chan Pui's school is located in Orlando. Does that mean he's any less authentic?

BTW, Fut Jeung Kuen literally translate into Buddha's Palm Fist.' What does that tell you? A traditional Chinese martial art would not be named that way.

It's not a style, it's a form or kata. Kuen is in a similar way to the Japanese word Kata.