the space colonies attack

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Here is my question why hasnt the space colonies try to retake earth, and dont give me that the earth forces could defeat them easily.

would the earth containment field attack killer asteroids or comets going headed towards earth?

[R Ditto]

The orbital colonies wrote off the Earth as a Lost Cause long ago.
That's why they quarintined Earth. They've lived in space/orbit for 3 centuries, that's like a dozen generations.

Problems with them capturing the entire freaking planet.

1: Minimal Gravity:
Many people from space would not be able to operate on Earth effectively unless they were born and grew up on big stations that could generate their own gravity. This pretty much writes off part of the Moon forces (leaving only the robotic drones and remote controlled stuff).

2: Resources: They have to travel all the way to the asteroid belt if they need any large amounts of resources.

3: Man Power: Some small kingdoms probably have more people than even the Moon Colony. FQ probably has more GBs than the orbitals have soldiers in general.

4: Kiler Asteroids: They do control the still active killer sats, so they could have them not shoot at killer asteroids... but it's still not a good idea, it kind of defeats the purpose of retaking a planet if you need to resort to measures that will wipe out most life on the planet, leaving only a lot of really ticked off/hungry magical, psychic and/or supernatural (and possibly MDC) creatures that would no longer have major tech based powers (CS, FQ, Japan, NG, Triax/NGR, etc) to keep them in check... Assuming the massive rift events caused by the mass death doesn't massively boost the amount of magic and/or supernatural critters on the planet, or otherwise cause the planet to rip (or rift) itself to little pieces...

5: Magic and the Supernatural: There doesn't appear to be much of either in orbit, so they probably have even less experience fighting such things as Pre-SOT CS forces did.

Overall...
It just isn't worth the effort, time and cost it would take for them to even try to retaike anything... An island or island chain they could probably handle (Phillipines, Hawaii, Easter Island, whatever) might be good locations to place ground bases (hopefully) without much trouble. Although, then the problem becomes how to get back up into space...

Got to remember, entire armies fell due to the coming of the Rifts, and the orbitals are in no way capable of fielding million man armies equipped with high tech stuff, so they couldn't come anywhere close to have the forces that didn't even last long when the Rifts occured...
They're alive, they're self sufficient, they prosper, they're relatively safe... no reason to throw it all out the window for some cause that will waste people and resources with no positive return at all.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

it's not about retaking earth, more of removing threats on earth

you going to tell me that with even with today's tech, that in 300 yrs, that they couldnt get the most info on earth and drop a asteroid on atlantis or another non friendly area

[R Ditto]

A "killer asteroid" is a bit overkill, not to mention the fact the devestation caused by the impacts and massive dust clouds are going to have far reaching affects. It's not going to be very helpful if a few regions upwind have massive crop failures because of the sun being blocked out by dust clouds for days or even weeks. There is also the problem of getting a giant chunk of space rock in position, which is going to take a lot of time and effort to do so.

It would probably be better to just drop some thermonuclear warheads in re-entry pods, which would be a lot simpler, cleaner and easier to achieve than dropping big rocks.

Another problem, the last thing you need is to convince Splynn to rift a few million forces into space and wipe out the orbitals in general, so hitting Atlantis would be a bad thing.

Another option for orbital strikes would be some sort of more precise orbital bombardment capability, such as from a large particle beam cannon, free-electron laser or "Thor Satellite" type weapon (big chunk of metal in a re-entry shell, it deploys a "guided" projectile that is going to hit so hard it can punch through a battleship or crack a bunker underground).

[Mech-Viper Prime]

what with all the intelligence beings in rifts earth and none of them notice

1. the space colonies, hello NGR, new navy , the techcities in japan and down under would know about them and any teenager with a telescope would be able to find them. , hell with the raping of of tech finds the Chi-town did followed by a space program and no one was watching with telescopes.


2. the fact that meteorites normally hit the earth but there is none of that, a kinda like walking into a forest at warm summer night and hearing nothing.


3. then there is the human factor, Humans generally care about other humans, the fact the the humans is space have turned their backs on thier fellow humans makes them worse then the coalition states.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

A "killer asteroid" is a bit overkill, not to mention the fact the devestation caused by the impacts and massive dust clouds are going to have far reaching affects. It's not going to be very helpful if a few regions upwind have massive crop failures because of the sun being blocked out by dust clouds for days or even weeks. There is also the problem of getting a giant chunk of space rock in position, which is going to take a lot of time and effort to do so.

It would probably be better to just drop some thermonuclear warheads in re-entry pods, which would be a lot simpler, cleaner and easier to achieve than dropping big rocks.

Another problem, the last thing you need is to convince Splynn to rift a few million forces into space and wipe out the orbitals in general, so hitting Atlantis would be a bad thing.

Another option for orbital strikes would be some sort of more precise orbital bombardment capability, such as from a large particle beam cannon, free-electron laser or "Thor Satellite" type weapon (big chunk of metal in a re-entry shell, it deploys a "guided" projectile that is going to hit so hard it can punch through a battleship or crack a bunker underground).

look at the Barringer Crater in Arizona that is from 150ft wide meteorite or the Chesapeake Bay Crater which still causes problems today with Maryland's groundwater and fractured the bedrock over a mile deep, which was caused by a 1 to 2 mile wide meteorite. I'm sure splynn would hang around after atlantis get hit with a meteorite

[cmbtbiker]

Look at this way. It was mentioned in one of the books that the CS attempted space travel and quit because of repeated failures. DO you think they may have gotten a telescope and looked up to see what they were running into. With a scope you could buy at wal-mart you would be able to see one or more of the stations and the moon colony. It is just not possible to say that people on earth do not know they are there.

I have never agreed with the pervasive attitude that exists in Rifts that says "Uh Oh things look bad better write them off." The New Navy in particular but the same applies to the space stations as well. they decided to not return and help out, they decided not to allow satellite communication, they don't care that there is a whole planet of water right in front of them and "Oh no, its just too dangerous for us to go back there."

You could make the argument that the CS knows but does not let on to anyone about it. (confiscating telescopes etc.) but the others should for certain know that life exists in space. Now that I done with my little rant, I was just inspired for a possible adventure involving this subject.

[R Ditto]

what with all the intelligence beings in rifts earth and none of them notice

1. the space colonies, hello NGR, new navy , the techcities in japan and down under would know about them and any teenager with a telescope would be able to find them. , hell with the raping of of tech finds the Chi-town did followed by a space program and no one was watching with telescopes.
I do find it odd there is little mention of knowledge of the orbitals, other than brief mentions of the CS and NGR trying to send probes into orbit.

Since much of the stuff that says that is basically the word of Erin Tarn and whatnot, it just means that such knowledge is not common, supressed, or otherwise discounted/denied by major governments. Perhaps to keep people from worrying, maybe because they don't care because whatever is up there, it's keeping aliens/d-bees from coming from space and the Rifts.


There are no real obserivatories left that I know of, so most people will be limited to the smaller ones, even the fairly portable ones that can be easily carried around. There is a chance that the counter-orbit debri field obscurs the presence of things in orbit, making it difficult to get a solid confirmation of "what" is up there other than the occasional big thing (the stations) and moving specs of light (engines of ships and from navigational/running lights on ships)

There is probably nothing on the ground with enough detail to notice there are humanoids in orbit, that there are actually a few GBs also. Ships likely have changed over the years, so there might not be any ships that were in use during pre-rifts times. Although it is possible some might at least partially resemble pre-rifts designs, but not being able to see actual pre-rifts designs up there might have an effect on people's opinions, perhaps thinking there are no humans up there.

IIRC, the orbitals monitor the Earth, but that they never communicate with any ground sources, and never reply to attempts to communicate with them.
The best that has happened is Archie being able to bounce signals off of what he thinks is a pre-rifts comm. sat, and no real sign that it is anything other than an old comm. sat.

2. the fact that meteorites normally hit the earth but there is none of that, a kinda like walking into a forest at warm summer night and hearing nothing.

I don't think the killer sats will bother with small chunks of rock unless it happens to be on a course that takes it at or close to one of them, but even then, most can probably tell a rock is just a rock, and simply avoid any impacts.
Chances are there will still be some shooting stars. Not just from rocks the killer sats might ignore, but also from bits and pieces from the counter-orbit debris field that fall out of orbit and enter the atmosphere.

3. then there is the human factor, Humans generally care about other humans, the fact the the humans is space have turned their backs on thier fellow humans makes them worse then the coalition states.

Yeah, generally, but it perhaps the orbitals feel powerless to do much about anything. They have their own problems, and any powers/governments they knew from the past are more or less gone. It's kind of ironic that the Japanese station was destroyed, and the only direct link with pre-rifts times is the cities of Japan that were lost in time for a period of time.

If contact was established with the orbitals, I would guess it would either happen with Japan (they probably know Hiroshima popped back and that there is visibly a ton of GBs running around now, they probably do got people using powerful telescopes watching whatever is going on up there), or by Archie, by someone on the moon colony stumbling across the fact Archie 7 has been 'observing' use of comm. relay functions of some CAN satellite via old Cyberworks priority access codes.

look at the Barringer Crater in Arizona that is from 150ft wide meteorite or the Chesapeake Bay Crater which still causes problems today with Maryland's groundwater and fractured the bedrock over a mile deep, which was caused by a 1 to 2 mile wide meteorite. I'm sure splynn would hang around after atlantis get hit with a meteorite

It looks like what survived to make the Barringer Crater was after it hit. The force of the impact was estimated to be equal to a 2.4 megaton blast.
For the Chesapeake Bay Crater.
Trying to figure out the Cesapeak Bay Crater... at 1 mile wide, an asteroid of dense rock would hit with at least 20,000 megatons worth of force.

Here's a site that does calculations of Earth Impact Effects.

[Nightmaster]

Sumarizing.

The space colonies dont have resources or even manpower to try such a thing.

Even if they attack Atlantis with asteroids and succed at wiping Splynn from the face of the Earth, Splynncrith could send more people back to rebuild quite fast through Rifts again so its pointless and will only make him aware that there are up there someone wishing their demise.

The best option would be for then to take some islands to create some sort of outpost. Giving time they could begin to build a small state down here and from it begin to retake the lands more close to then. It would be a very very slow process and will only give fruits after several decades.
___________________________________________________


The problem with the Rifts-Earth great nations dont knowing about the existence of the space colonies is the fact that the Mutants in Orbit book was primary devised for the After the Bomb setting, in which there is no such great nation as the CS, NGR and others with the resources to invest in space programs. After the Bomb is a Mad Max setting in contrast to the sci-fi/fantasy setting that is Rifts-Earth.

All that said, even a scope that can be buyed at a local store would be surprising accurate to locate the orbital stations and the ships up there.

Using logic, after that discolver nations like the NGR and the CS would for sure build better scopes to see better and thus would only be a matter of time before they find out that there are humans living in those stations.

Next step would be the building of large antenaes like those that already exist today to try "hear" comunications from other planets and again it would be only a matter of time before they find out about the "containment" from hearing the communications of the orbital stations.

They for sure would not know details of how that containment is done but will now know that they are being stoped in reaching the stars by those people up there. They then would try to communicate with then. If they are answered or not is another thing but they will try nonetless.

From there they would monitor the orbital stations and in the due time they could even discolver how the containment is done and with that will learn how to bypass the debris screen.

[Killer Cyborg]

Here is my question why hasnt the space colonies try to retake earth, and dont give me that the earth forces could defeat them easily.

would the earth containment field attack killer asteroids or comets going headed towards earth?

They recognize that the Earth has become a dangerous place where new and strange dangers are rifted in bi-weekly. Retaking the Earth would only mean getting caught in a meat-grinder, unless they figure out some way to shut down the Rifts.

[Killer Cyborg]

it's not about retaking earth, more of removing threats on earth

you going to tell me that with even with today's tech, that in 300 yrs, that they couldnt get the most info on earth and drop a asteroid on atlantis or another non friendly area

They don't want to **** off Atlantis.

[The Galactus Kid]

And Splyncryth comes up and smacks the crap out of the space colonies with his MILLIONS of minions.

[Nightmaster]

why settle for trillions when you could get ... wait for it ... millions MwHaHaHaHaHa!

but seriously whats wrong with the idea that perhaps Rifts Earth is simply a little out of phase with reality or some other barrier exists that prevents the 'Moon Base' from reaching or contacting Rifts Earth in any way shape or form and vise versa. It may also explain the ignorance of the CS and others as to whats actually up there.

Because it was been described that a screen of debris and killer sattelities are the reason for why the CS, NGR and others dont succed at reaching orbit.

Also, ARCHIE 3 have reactivated a sattelite link and now have access to sattelite surveilance over North America. The theory of the world being out of phase cannot work with that background laid off.

It dont explain why the CS or the NGR have not been able discolver with scopes the orbital stations but I bet that KS have not think about it, otherwise he most surely would have explained it.

[DocS]

Hey!
Why not run a campaign around the space colonies setting up the 'ol Killer Asteroid? It gives plenty of reasons for PC's to go up there and stop that idea.

Who said the space colonies had to be.... benevolent?

[Nightmaster]

First because they dont wish to stir up anything down here that could destroy then. Second they are not madmans and finally Third they dont wish a new Glacial Age. What is the point of making it if you would lose the use of the planet for next millenia?

Also, for the PCs to get up there to stop then, first they would need to know that there are space stations in orbit and so far no one knows that and second they would need to have ways to get up there and enter the space stations without an fleet at their back.

[R Ditto]

I don't think listening for transsmissions would work well, the used of directional communications and laser means there would be nothing to pick up on the planet. Also, they could be using frequencies that bounce off of the upper atmosphere.
My dad was a WWII vet, he had an old radio. He said if you set the right frequencies, you could actually pick up radio transmissions from a good ways away, even ones from the other side of the planet, from signals that had bounced off of the upper atmosphere.


Nightmaster
The idea of Archie using orbital satellites is an interesting idea, but Aftermath does state otherwise.

Unless it's changed in a later book, he just bounces signals off of a satellite that he thinks is an old comm. satellite, that he has no other control over it and that he has no clue that it is actually a newer satellite.

[Nightmaster]

so if the whole out of phase thing isn't probable given whats already in print ... then probably the reason why the powers on earth don't interact with the powers on the moon is because Kev hasn't written a book for it yet. *shrugs*

He most probably have forgot about scopes used to see the stars. Even simple ones can be surprising accurate. That is a thing that most people dont know.

[Nightmaster]

I don't think listening for transsmissions would work well, the used of directional communications and laser means there would be nothing to pick up on the planet. Also, they could be using frequencies that bounce off of the upper atmosphere.
My dad was a WWII vet, he had an old radio. He said if you set the right frequencies, you could actually pick up radio transmissions from a good ways away, even ones from the other side of the planet, from signals that had bounced off of the upper atmosphere.


Nightmaster
The idea of Archie using orbital satellites is an interesting idea, but Aftermath does state otherwise.

Unless it's changed in a later book, he just bounces signals off of a satellite that he thinks is an old comm. satellite, that he has no other control over it and that he has no clue that it is actually a newer satellite.

Not everyone in the orbit would be using directional communications and perhaps (correct me if I am wrong) if you know the source of a possible communication you can perhaps intercept it.

As for Archie satellite capacity, I have read Aftermath just once. Now looking at it again, its says that the CAN satellite recognize Archie access codes and allow it to bounce off its signal. Archie dont know that there are orbital communities or that this satellite is more than a communication type so he is not trying to read the signals being transmited through it because he believe that he is the only one doing it. If he even try, his access codes could allow him to have access to the comunication data of the satellite.

Of course ARCHIE 7 would cut him out imediatly but not until Archie find out that there are others using the satellite.

[Nightmaster]

oh yeah! then find me a picture of the moon lander from someones telescope (that's not from NASA).

nope no sarcasm here at all *snicker*

Surprising accurate to see the space stations in orbit over Earth not the Moon colony.

[R Ditto]

When I was looking up the info while doing my previous post, I saw no mention of Archie having any capability other than bouncing signals off of the satellite. No mentions of him accessing communications logs, no capability to change its position, just the capability to bounce signals off of it.

Since Archie 7 knows of Archie's 3 access of the satellite, it will probably ensure that the satellite doesn't have (or give away) any information stored on it that would alert anyone to the presence of the orbitals.
Although, since Archie 3 doesn't have up to date codes, he wouldn't be able to access such info in the first place, since all he has is old codes to let him bounce signals.
There is a big difference between simply relaying signals and requesting sensitive information.

Archie bouncing signals is like someone making and recieving phone calls, no problem, just need a phone, phone service, and phone numbers.
Getting the sensitive info of what all the satellite does would be like going to the phone company, getting past secured doors (means having the right key, access code, or ID card) and into the building, find one's way into a computer room where all their data is stored (likely restricted access), log into the database, and then access all the logs... (likely need yet passwords).

On a side note, the book says no one can detect satellite communications because no one knows it is possible and no one is looking, and the only place other than Archie who has the right stuff/knowledge is Atlantis.
That kind of rules out chances of people finding out about the orbitals via picking up communications from space.

[Nightmaster]

When I was looking up the info while doing my previous post, I saw no mention of Archie having any capability other than bouncing signals off of the satellite. No mentions of him accessing communications logs, no capability to change its position, just the capability to bounce signals off of it.

Since Archie 7 knows of Archie's 3 access of the satellite, it will probably ensure that the satellite doesn't have (or give away) any information stored on it that would alert anyone to the presence of the orbitals.
Although, since Archie 3 doesn't have up to date codes, he wouldn't be able to access such info in the first place, since all he has is old codes to let him bounce signals.
There is a big difference between simply relaying signals and requesting sensitive information.

Archie bouncing signals is like someone making and recieving phone calls, no problem, just need a phone, phone service, and phone numbers.
Getting the sensitive info of what all the satellite does would be like going to the phone company, getting past secured doors (means having the right key, access code, or ID card) and into the building, find one's way into a computer room where all their data is stored (likely restricted access), log into the database, and then access all the logs... (likely need yet passwords).

On a side note, the book says no one can detect satellite communications because no one knows it is possible and no one is looking, and the only place other than Archie who has the right stuff/knowledge is Atlantis.
That kind of rules out chances of people finding out about the orbitals via picking up communications from space.

I just pondered the matter. If he have access codes to allow him to use the satellite to bounce off signals perhaps and just perhaps his codes could give him access to the log of communication of the satellite.

Also ARCHIE 7 dont know that is ARCHIE 3 that is accessing the satellite. If Archie try to look more into that satellite he could discolver the satellite communication logs. ARCHIE 7 will stop it right away, but the action would make Archie aware that there are others using the satellite.

As for the nations of Rifts Earth not knowing that satellite communication can exist, I disagree. The NGR in contrast to the CS didnt lost knowledge of satellite communication. It lost satellite access like everyone else. Unlike the CS the NGR never lost knowledge.

I find strange that nations like the CS and the NGR have never looked at the sky with large scopes. That alone would allow then to find the orbital stations. The act of try to listening to their communications would only be a logic step.

[R Ditto]

I just pondered the matter. If he have access codes to allow him to use the satellite to bounce off signals perhaps and just perhaps his codes could give him access to the log of communication of the satellite.

I can make phone calls and connect to internet via DSL, but I can't just dial up all the phone and internet records at the phone company. Why? I just have access to use them to make calls and connect to assorted servers, that's it... high level security clearance not included...

Also ARCHIE 7 dont know that is ARCHIE 3 that is accessing the satellite. If Archie try to look more into that satellite he could discolver the satellite communication logs. ARCHIE 7 will stop it right away, but the action would make Archie aware that there are others using the satellite.

Wrong, right after the sentance where it says the satellites computer recognized Archie 3's access codes, it says Archie 7 does know of the signals coming from Earth.
CAN (and Arche 7) dont want anyone on Earth to know they are there. They are not going to do anything or leave anything laying around that gives away their existence...
Besides, Archie 3 has old access codes, no security codes or passwords needed to access any logs on the satellite, assuming there is even a log at all. Being a comm. sat, all the records are probably kept elsewhere, so someone can't just hack (or steal) the satellite to get sensitive information.

As for the nations of Rifts Earth not knowing that satellite communication can exist, I disagree. The NGR in contrast to the CS didnt lost knowledge of satellite communication. It lost satellite access like everyone else. Unlike the CS the NGR never lost knowledge.

True, but if they can't access any satellites, it's probably because they don't have the right telemetry data, no idea where comm. sats might be at, and no clue there is even anything "alive" (or otherwise human) up there. I doubt anyone in orbit is going to go aiming a communications array at any ground station just for kicks.

I find strange that nations like the CS and the NGR have never looked at the sky with large scopes. That alone would allow then to find the orbital stations. The act of try to listening to their communications would only be a logic step.

Listen to what? With the exception of Archie 3, there aren't going to be any transmissions directed directly at Earth.
They would have made attempts to communicate with orbit the first chance they got, and then give up after a few weeks or months of getting no replies at all. Probably written off when they failed to get probes into space.

They are totally shut off from space.
There could be no way of telling if random and weak transmissions are from space, or just elsehwere on the planet and being reflected by the upper atmosphere or atmospheric events.

Heck, all the orbitals have to do is use radio frequencies that bounce off of the upper atmosphere, and no one on the planet would be aware of there being transmissions, because none would make it to the ground.
The Earths Magnetic Field and atmosphere could be another factor. Signals strong enough to go a good distance in space might be to weak to make it to the ground in any 'coherent' way by themselves without some sort of relay purposly trying to direct signals at the planet.

Any movement could just be one of the killer satellites in some odd orbital pattern. The space stations have solar panels, they would have power for lights, but no real proof there is anyone still alive up there.

Canon stuff just doesn't leave any loop holes or gaps for any chance of contact to happen, even when trying to apply common sense to things... but it's not surprising that there is yet another thing that has "Logic and Common Sense Resitance +10"...

If anyone were to contact space, it would probably be one of few things I can think of...
1: Japan does something to get the orbitals attention. They have fusion warheads for missiles, they probably could rig up some sort of high powered energy base drive system capable of lifting a payload that has a chromium armor shell.
2: Some open minded or curious magic user(s) finds some way to get into space via magic.
3: Space Pirates or whoever else hack the CAN sat Archie is using and purposly or accidently alert Archie 3 to their presence.
4: Someone finds an intact super sized comm. dishes that is actually big enough to pick up enough of a signal to make out any transmissions from space (IIRC, those things are big, and often used in groups)
5: TW modified version of the one Naruni fighter that has enough speed to get into orbit... (mainly something like Impervious to Energy, which will protect from anything but rail guns and particle beam cannons of large size)
6: *Points a finger at Aliens Unlimited and the Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide*
7: A Cosmo Knight.
8: Someone in orbit stops being a fanatic of isolationism.
9: Someone in orbit does or finds something that requires them to contact (or otherwise get an oupost on) Earth to avoid certain destruction.
10: Palladium stops making dimension/world books and actually makes a book devoted to the Rifts' Sol System in general.
11: Ignore the, er... junk and nonsense and have someone in Orbit get some guts or hope for the planet for a change and actually bother to try and contact someone on the planet for a change...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i find it odd that the outcast station goes along with the rest, since they are treated so poorly

[Toc Rat]

All the information in Mutants in Orbit is dated to say the least. It was written well before KS really got his vision for how Rifts Earth looks down on paper. Hence why it is called "Mutants in Orbit" and NOT Rifts: Near Orbit or Rifts: Moon base and beyond or something similar.

Now be that as it may, the colonies havent done anything with the Earth's surface for multiple reasons.
1. Too much expense for too little pay off.
Sure they could go down to the surface but why? They have all the resources they need out there. They got the moon, millions of tons of space junk for recycling and the asteroids.
2. Lack of manpower to effect significant change.
Even after centuries in space the colonies still lack sufficient numbers to really make a difference on the surface.
3. No unified plan.
The colonies are far too busy with their own political agendas and conflicts to be bothered with Earth. No single one of them can hope to accomplish anything worth while, it would take all of them to even make a weak attempt.
4. No one knows they are there.
If they begin to interact with the surface, sooner or later someone will notice. If the NGR, Japan, CS or worse still Atlantis were to discover their existence, things could get very bad for them. The best way to ensure that no one from Earth decides to look space ward is to not attract attention.

On a side note I would like to see a complete re-make of the MiO book. Something that was a Rifts source book exclusively. Flesh out the colonies more, update the tech. After all they should have at the least Golden Age tech. That means they should have at least the same capabilities as NEMA if not better. Remember NEMA was a Non-military orginization. It was actually meant as more of a peace keeping/rescue force. Imagine what the actual military would have had? Or better yet what kind of cutting edge tech would the space colonies have had? Their research centers?

Dont get me wrong, I'm the first to complain about power creep but since it is a fact of Rifts, then a remake of the book should take that in to account.

[Nightmaster]

Any movement could just be one of the killer satellites in some odd orbital pattern. The space stations have solar panels, they would have power for lights, but no real proof there is anyone still alive up there.

Canon stuff just doesn't leave any loop holes or gaps for any chance of contact to happen, even when trying to apply common sense to things... but it's not surprising that there is yet another thing that has "Logic and Common Sense Resitance +10"...

Sorry Ditto but the fact that they find with scopes up there the station and later use larger scopes to look better will make then aware that there are still people up there. The simple act of a shuttle docking with the station would be enough proof of that.

Now that is the canon loop hole. Siembieda have not think about the scopes used today. They can not see details in the moon at all, but if aimed carefully they can fint Yuro Station, Laika Station and the others that are up there in orbit around Earth.

The act of trying to hear then would be the next step to know why they dont reply the transmitions sended to then from the ground nations.

[rat_bastard]

First off, read "the moon is a harsh mistress" by robert heinlen.

If the orbital colonies want war all they have to do is start dropping rocks on their targets. However it would do next to nothing to aid their goals and they really would have almost no use for terra firma.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I'm so glad , the towards the end of the 21st century they are still using mid 20th tech to do things

the Newest coalition vechile the mdc horse and buggy

[cmbtbiker]

I agree. This is a big canon loop hole. The stars are too important for land based life forms tohave ignored. Land and sea navigation was developed by loooking at the sky and stars(constellations) for hundreds of years. Witht he techlevel of the CS, NGR, RUssia Japan, South America, heck anyone really and they cannot just look up and see what is going on in space. Wrong.

Now you have the Arhkons fighting in space with the Colonies. The Colonies are at war, they are joining togeth to fight the bad aliens, they have finite resources or what resources they have will be taxed to the limit and they are still going to think that earth is a bad option. That makes about as much sense as Lazlo not helping Tolkeen for philisophical differences and now they are the only ones still standing between Free Quebec and the CS. Bet they are thinking twice about that one.

Since this thread got started I have thinking of a plausible way a contact /reunite story where the Colonies become more involved with earth and vise versa. I doubt that it will be played because all but one of my game group has moved and the last is getting out of gaming. But that won't stop me MwHaHaHaHa. RIght now it would cross Japan, South America and the New Navy. Still much work to do.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Quick question...but HOW exactly is space important even today? Seriously, step back and think about it. Short of putting up satellites in orbit, what is it that makes space important? You can...look at the moon? Find new galaxies?

They don't need space, nor is it important for them. The Orbitals have been stated as having enough for what they need and the Archons have long since been forgotten. What you do in your games is up to you, but the nations on Earth have very little to gain compared to what they stand to lose if they continue trying to get in space.

ok larry king

[DhAkael]

Quick question...but HOW exactly is space important even today? Seriously, step back and think about it. Short of putting up satellites in orbit, what is it that makes space important? You can...look at the moon? Find new galaxies?

They don't need space, nor is it important for them. The Orbitals have been stated as having enough for what they need and the Archons have long since been forgotten. What you do in your games is up to you, but the nations on Earth have very little to gain compared to what they stand to lose if they continue trying to get in space.

ok larry king

Soooo...what exactly should I be looking forward to? Moon or Mars colonization? Maybe another multi-national space station that doesn't do anything?

OOH! How about...we keep testing the effects of zero gravity...on growing tomatoes!?

I'm all ears here. Please, enlighten me on just how awesome and important space is to us except as a place for us to put satellites.

Simple: any fan of the genre would have "space" made available, just cuz.
No real deep seated economic, or religious need.. just y'know....because it's cool and it opens the filed for some major space opera daring-do for your Ley-walkers and Juicers.

But if you want to stullify and ham-string your stories..go for it. WE won't stop you.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Quick question...but HOW exactly is space important even today? Seriously, step back and think about it. Short of putting up satellites in orbit, what is it that makes space important? You can...look at the moon? Find new galaxies?

They don't need space, nor is it important for them. The Orbitals have been stated as having enough for what they need and the Archons have long since been forgotten. What you do in your games is up to you, but the nations on Earth have very little to gain compared to what they stand to lose if they continue trying to get in space.

ok larry king

Soooo...what exactly should I be looking forward to? Moon or Mars colonization? Maybe another multi-national space station that doesn't do anything?

OOH! How about...we keep testing the effects of zero gravity...on growing tomatoes!?

I'm all ears here. Please, enlighten me on just how awesome and important space is to us except as a place for us to put satellites.

to look for alien chicks

But honestly to think that the tech level wilk has for optics alone and for some reason no telescope. Today they are small and powerful to see the moon that can the rings of Saturn for under $1000 dollars, and for why to learn. man is a creature who carves knowledge as it does food and drink and man has always looked to the stars and somehow even with demons and monsters, wouldnt stop being from gazing at the stars and moon and wondering if.

[cmbtbiker]

The strategic military value of it alone is worth it. Satellites are a huge part of this. The Coalition could have bombed Tolkeen from orbit. GPS tracking and coordinating of troop movements when the NGR launches its land and sea campaign against the Gargoyles. With space you could change the face of the world. You could gather intelligence on any of your enemies. You could map Atlantis, find other techcenters, instant communications ANYWHERE. It would be the first big step at reuniting the planet.

The crap about the Colonies writing off earth and the only thing they have in common is they want to keep everyone else out is just that CRAP. For the same reasons that Earth would want to hit the stars the Colonies would want to hit the earth. The biggest reason RESOURCES, cheaper, easier, more abundant and way more variety.

KS did not give allot of thought into the Rifts portion of Mutants in Orbit. It really just does not make allot of sense to me.

[rat_bastard]

the problem is atlantis would not allow any power except themselves to put satilites in orbit, except possable geosynchonous satilites.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs says otherwise when your life is under constant threat from outside invaders, demons, fellow humans. Any nation that doesn't secure its own borders first...falls. Happens every single time.

As for stullifying my campaigns...let me just bust out that map of ley lines in spa...wait a minute! What's this?!? No ley lines in space? Wow, poor ley line walker. You wanna play in the vacuum of space? More power to you. There are enough problems on Earth that I don't have to think of crazy ways to get into space just to have adventures. Plenty of adventure to be had on Earth without thinking of how to puncture the counter-orbit field.

really, you guess you players have never been to mars then via magic

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs says otherwise when your life is under constant threat from outside invaders, demons, fellow humans. Any nation that doesn't secure its own borders first...falls. Happens every single time.

As for stullifying my campaigns...let me just bust out that map of ley lines in spa...wait a minute! What's this?!? No ley lines in space? Wow, poor ley line walker. You wanna play in the vacuum of space? More power to you. There are enough problems on Earth that I don't have to think of crazy ways to get into space just to have adventures. Plenty of adventure to be had on Earth without thinking of how to puncture the counter-orbit field.

really, you guess you players have never been to mars then via magic

If you're asking if my players have teleported themselves to Mars only to be killed by the lack of atmosphere (being that no one knew about the vacuum of space due to a lack of space knowledge in general with the "Rifts Public Education System")...then you'd be correct in assuming none of my players have done that.

Now, if your players have rifted/teleported themselves off to Mars to have zany adventures with the giant roaches living there...hey, hope it was a crazy, wacky time and you bought souvenirs.

nope just a couple of xiticixs

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs says otherwise[snip]

This is one of those great examples of why I believe that there should be a clapping emoticon.

In lieu of its absence:

~ Josh

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs says otherwise[snip]

This is one of those great examples of why I believe that there should be a clapping emoticon.

In lieu of its absence:

~ Josh

yes all well and good brings something to the topic just not that much

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I always thought the space colonies didn't get along very well, a bit of tension in the air so to speak.

Or am I wrong, I do know they don't like the moon colony...

They don't like each other but they like the moon even less. The moon doesn't give a damn about the colonies. The only thing they all agree on is keeping the counter-orbit ring up, other than that, they don't get along.

its the UN in space

[Nightmaster]

You're making a big oversight though. Who's to say the CS, NGR, or ANYONE for that matter has telescopes of today's strength? Both attempted to have space programs and both quit relatively quickly...but that by no means says that they have the large observatories needed to house such things. Looking up into the sky with an $80 telescope won't show you much.

Why I think they have that? For the same reason they have MDC lasers. The optic technology they all possess is enough for then to have scopes even better than the ones today.

Both the CS & NGR have also assumed (correctly) that there is a large amount of debris in counter-orbit and nothing, I repeat NOTHING, is going to get into space without the colonies allowing it. Nuclear weapons? The CS, NGR, & Japan have em'...glitterboy armor won't help them in the slightest against the counter-orbit field.

Ohh but it can my friend. The only reason the containment field work is because besides the debris field there are killer satellites up there.

If any object going to orbit manages to become invisible to the sensors of the killer satellites then the chances of it bypassing the debris field is great. That is why the space colonies are always repairing the killer satellites, because if the debris field dont work, the satellites destroy the object.

Another thing to take note of is all this talk of "the orbitals just need to shoot asteroids at Earth!" Uh, what? Nowhere in the book is it stated they have the ability to launch asteroids at Earth, let alone with any precision. Are you talking about when they tow the ice asteroids in...maybe build up speed and then release them? Unless those asteroids have someone guiding them in with a ton of engines on them to make a proper entry angle, any rock you throw at Earth will either burn up or bounce off the atmosphere.

Then you have the constant political disarray of the stations. They are not allied in ANYTHING except maintaining the counter-orbit ring. They've been at odds since before the Coming of the Rifts and after 300 years they are nowhere near coming to terms with each other. It also states that one thing they all have in common is that Earth is a lost cause and want nothing to do with that demon infested ball of dirt.

Well they would need Earth for several reasons but the principal would be those two that are the most important.

1. Space: No matter how big they are, the space stations in orbit dont have much capacity to build more space to allow large populations. That to a space colony is a path to doom.
2. Resources: The necessary requirements to mine minerals and water/icy in the asteroid ring is incredible high. Now if you go to Earth and mine the resources you need from there, costs would be reduced tenfold.

[Rockwolf66]

I once played around with a story line

the story went that a Ship from Freedom Station was recently shot down over earth by the Arkohns. Altho the ship it'self broke up in the atmosphere the escape pod made it to the ground intact.

Due to the physical changes incured over generations in low gravity most of the crew died. The Remaining Crew Member Jennifer is a Superpowered Mutant cyberjack of Good allighnment.

She is currently trapped on earth, and has no hope of getting home.

The thing about the orbitals is that they would have an accurate "Golden-age" sense of history. thus Co-operating with most of the "World-powers" is out for various reasons( the Human supremicy of the CS comes to mind).

She know has to learn about what life is like Dirtside. It makes for an interesting story.

[Qev]

Mmm... the orbitals would never look at Earth as a source of resources, unless they were planning to move there. It would be insanely more expensive to haul material up out of Earth's gravity well than to simply fetch it from asteroids and comets (well, 'simply' is understating the endeavor, but I'm allowed a little hyperbole).

If the space colonies are capable of towing an asteroid into Earth orbit for resources, then it's no more difficult for them to tow an asteroid into a position where it will impact the planet (probably easier, in fact). It's not like they'd need to be in a hurry; nobody down there is in any position to stop them.

In all honesty, if they've given up on Earth, I don't see why they bother remaining in Earth orbit. At least one group, by now, ought to have hitched a ride on a passing comet, circularized its orbit, and set up shop. Their future would lie in the outer parts of the solar system.

[taalismn]

True...there's probably less leyline activity in the outer system..
But...
People tend to do what's emotional rather than rational...like holding on to ground that's obviously in dire peril, simply because it's there...(take, for instance, the Faulklands War)...

Eventually, perhaps, a diaspora of sorts will take place, especially if the Earthlings begin finding ways to consistantly escape the planet and begin threatening to muddy up LOcal Space....Rather than fight(though some inevitably will start fighting, and do so the bitter end), many Orbitals will begin peeling out for less crowded territories.

[Qev]

Problem with that is Impervious to Energy doesn't do anything at all to stop or even ease the damage caused by the main problem...the counter orbit ring. So long as it's in place, nothing can get into space. Considering the speed of things in orbit as well...nothing short of a constant nuclear barrage into space at a specific point would give you enough time to punch a single ship through...but the constant emp waves coming from the nukes would render the ship inoperable anyway. Big lose/lose situation to be had there.

Actually, you just provided your own solution. A nuclear barrage combined with a ship imbued with Impervious to Energy.

I suppose one could arm the ship with Annihilate cannons or something, as an alternative to nukes.

[R Ditto]

Here's a question.
Would the counter-orbit debris field have any effect of how well someone could see stuff in orbit, and of how much detail could be seen?

Another question.
How powerful would a telescope have to be to make out an object 96,000km away (geosynchronous orbit, where the main stations are at) appear to only be 100m or 10m away?

Is it safe to say that even a top of the line 250 power telescope won't do the job?
Would an observatory be able to make out the space shuttle, the writing on its side, a human shape or even facial features, at 96,000km up?
How about 240km (low Earth orbit, likely lowest possible point where the CODF and Killer Sats are likely to be at)


Nightmaster
About the comment of space shuttles docking at a station.
That's no real proof at all of there being human life.
For all they know, it could be old automated craft maintaining long since abaonded stations, or that "something else" is living up there now.
Most likely, they will assume "something else" since no one answers their calls, and the "something else" politely wastes anything that tries to get into orbit.

Also, focusing lasers and magnefying images from a longs ways off are slightly different things. One is about keeping a beam of light tight and focused, the other is about greatly magnefying images.
That and the range of lasers on Rifts Earth sort of stink.
Also, telescope power does not translate to detail.

Seeing a ring around a 120,000,000m wide planet (Saturn) that is 1,429,400,000 km away from the sun is different than seeing a 2m big person 96,000km strait up.
If I got the numbers right, something 96,000km up will need to be 8,000m in size to be seen as well as Saturn can be seen with the same power telescope.
That cuts out home telescopes in general for seeing much of anything as far as detail. A station could be seen, but something like a shuttle would still be very small and probably hard to make out.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

never underestimate the power of the higher price end of the home telescopes of today.

you got the outcast station, the rejects of the of the group, but yet they would
stay in a fourth rate space station in bad shape vs cutting loose from a space community that dislikes them and starting fresh on mars(which most of them would have a better chance )

moon base , anyone who knew where the moonbase was would look in the same place.

and what the heck is up with the moons robots, a samurai and a what the heck the other one is plus the dragon

[Qev]

Here's a question.
Would the counter-orbit debris field have any effect of how well someone could see stuff in orbit, and of how much detail could be seen?

Not too likely. If there were enough material in the debris field to affect optical observations, then it would also be causing significant climate change on the planet itself. It would take a lot of material to cause visible effects.

Another question.
How powerful would a telescope have to be to make out an object 96,000km away (geosynchronous orbit, where the main stations are at) appear to only be 100m or 10m away?

Is it safe to say that even a top of the line 250 power telescope won't do the job?

Mmm, not quite. By my very rough and inexpert calculation, you'd need something like a 420 power telescope for an object to appear to subtend the same arc as it would at 100m.

Would an observatory be able to make out the space shuttle, the writing on its side, a human shape or even facial features, at 96,000km up?
How about 240km (low Earth orbit, likely lowest possible point where the CODF and Killer Sats are likely to be at)

Modern day observatories? Not very likely. Mind you, astronomical telescopes aren't really designed to look at such things anyway. At lower orbit, it's possible to get some very fine detail... after all, the military uses spy satellites all the time. I don't know about 'Enemy of the State' level detail, but everything I can find suggests a resolution of around 10cm per pixel or less. So that's not half bad.

[Nightmaster]

Like Mech-Viper said dont understimate the power of today amateur telescopes.

Also one dont really need to be seeing the space station from somewhat around 100m to see workers repairing the solar panels and shuttles docking in and out of it. That is signal of life in the stations. Suficient to make the ones observing to try to make contact and failing that try to listen the communications of the station.

[R Ditto]

I agree that Killer Sats use more than just radar, such as thermal imaging.
Also, one thing radar will probably pick up (especially doppler style radar), debris in the CODF making sudden shifts in movement or direction due to something physically interacting with the CODF. Visual scanning could notice it also.

Another problem, if those radar systems are operating on the right frequency or with enough power, they will get a signal bouncing off of the planet or the upper atmosphere, and while the software might normally filter it out, it will likely also notice if there could be a possible spot where a "void" is in the radar return, hinting to the presence of something being there.

There is one other problem.
Radar CAN detect stealthy aircraft.
Why do stealth aircraft not show up on radar?
Because it's not WWII.
In WWII, early radar scopes showed everything, not just ships and aircraft, but land masses also. Because they had no filtering software.
As radar became more effective and accurate, filters had to be installed, because the systems could detect just about everything, including birds, so the systems need filters so the radar doesn't display every little thing that just happens to fly by.
Look at Doppler radar, it tracks clouds, which are nothing more than large batches of water vapor.

So, what if the software was upgraded?
What if the software was given a tiny little line of code that says birds don't usually fly at sustained speeds of over 100mph, and that birds don't fly above certain altitudes, and that anything that doesn't qualify as a bird is displayed as an "anomaly"?.

Some modern radar systems are being developed that can track the flight path of a bullet and tell you where it came from, it's effect velocity, etc, so it should be no problem for an advanced radar system with golden age tech to use similar capabilities to aid in locating and tracking stealth aircraft.

Since space based systems are going to need a long range since space is big, with all the sats around, even if something had a 90% reduction in its radar crosssection, if a radar had a range of 1,000 miles, it's still going to be able to pick up the craft if it comes within 100 miles, unless it's deigned to pick up even small missiles at its max effective range, in which case a small high speed object is at least going flagged because it's moving fast and not behaving like a free-falling chunk of rock caught in the planet's gravity.

With all the efforts the orbitals have apparently put into quarintine of the planet, I wouldn't doubt if their killer sats (or even some pre-rifts killer sats) had at least some of those stealth detection capabilities.

[Nightmaster]

Much is said about the debris field. By canon it destroy 90% of everything that try to reach orbit while the Killer Satellites destroy the other 10%.

Ok that is what is said in canon in the book Mutants in Orbit. Now lets think a bit ok?

We are not talking about a street or avenue in a city we are talking about the entire planet.

A debris field to destroy everything that try to reach orbit will need to envelopt the entire planet, yard by yard. To be 90% effective it also would have to be so dense that it would effectively cloud Earth, droping the temperature of the entire planet like in a nucler winter. That dont occurr so far in the books.

Also the amount of material to be put into that debris field for it to be effectively is so great that if the orbital communities did have all that junk to put there I find dificult to believe they are not living on Mars and other planets and moons in the solar system or that they do have problems with resources and equipment.

That being said I dont buy that crap that the debris field destroy 90% of everything that try to leave the planet. My old GM didnt also.

To me a resonable number for the efficiency of the debris field would be 35% to 40% of everything that leaves Earth is destroyed. That puts the entire thing more on level of the capacity of the communities in orbit.

The remaining 65% to 60% is destroyed by the Killer Sats.

[R Ditto]

The CODF is deadly, plain and simple.
Mach roughly comes to 300m/s.
If the CODF is in LEO (Low Earth Orbit), we are talking high speed death death at 200+km high.

Take the Boom Gun...
200 'slugs', each roughly 8 grams in weight, and about 5x25mm in size, going at a speed of 1500m/s, doing 3D6x10 MD.

Now, take LEO, the speed for stable LEO is 8km/s (8000m/s), or over 5 times faster.

Lets bring in the math.
Kinetic Energy = 1/2 (Mass x Velocity^2)

So, a single GB slug would do 15-90 SDC by itself, at a speed of 1500m/s.
We get a KE of 9,000,000
(how ironic, that comes out to a max SDC of 1 per 900,000 KE... maybe rounded to 1 mil for good measure)

Now lets that 8 gran slug was going 8,000m/s
It comes out to a KE of 256,000,000, or 28 times more KE. That's a good boost to 4D6+1 MD.

But weight, there's more!
The ship trying to get into space has to be going at least 1500m/s itself!
We then get a total effective KE of 361,000,000! Or 40 times more KE than at 1500m/s alone! That's a good 6D6 MD from a little 8 gram chunk of material!

Just for comparison, that's about as much KE as if you got hit by a 1 ton car going 96kph (60mph)...

Oh, what if something gets hit by a single 1 kg chunk of rock?
Basic KE of 32,000,000,000 (and effective 5D6x10 MD?), or if hitting something heading up at 1500m/s, an effective KE of 45,125,000,000 (an effective 1D4x100+50 MD?)
It's also almost as much KE as a a 150 ton train plowing into something at 96kph (60mph)

Name ANY single rocket or aircraft that can stay pointed up after being hit with that kind of force...

Toss in possibly being impacted by several KG worth of mass on the way through the CODF... not to mention what it's going to do to stealth coatings on craft, assuming the material doesn't contain trace elements that cause them to flash or spark when subjected to extreme impact force, and the effective heat energy generated by the forces...

As for the materials...
Asteroid mining...
Lets say the orbitals tend to take rock leftover from processed ore and used it for the CODF, that means they have a byproduct from one thing that gets reused in another thing.

Oh, at those speeds, materials don't matter, the impact will be so fast the impact force will likely be delivered faster than the rock has a chance to shatter. You get water going fast enough and it will punch through even solid steel. Certain materials can only deform/shatter so fast, meaning if they are going fast enoug, they could very well have already passed through whatever they hit before they even have a chance to deform in the impacted item.

At 8000m/s, a little debris could cover a lot of area, it could be "spread out" thin and still have lethal effects on anything that passed througgh it...

Oh, anyone seen the movie Pitch Black with Vin Desiel?
IIRC, in the opening, micro meteorites punch clean through the ship's hull like a hot knife through butter... Considering how intact part of the ship was after it crashed, it was made of some pretty tough stuff, and yet the micrometeorites punched through it so easily...
those are the kind of forces we are talking about...