Rifts Ultimate Edition Errata

[TechnoGothic]

Only things that really bugged me was :

1. JUICER PP missing (is it going to added in 2nd Printing ??)
2. BORG section details...page 46
3. That damn AD for that phone game

So these three things get fixed ??

[The Galactus Kid]

if this is the case and if it does cost them alot to make needed corrections and updates for additional print runs of a book, i strongly suggest talking with Kevin to switch to digital production methods. this alone could save them a bundle of time and money.

This is something that has been addressed at Palladium before, and as Maryann, Alex M. and Kevin have all said in the past, the switch to digital formating will not be happening soon. Kevin can do his paste up faster than if it was done digitally (i have no reason to doubt this, but I have not seen it firsthand) and they work very very closely with their publisher as they have for a number of years. Theirs is a very personal relationship as well as a business one so costwise they are doing everything they can to help palladium too.

[Jason Richards]

if it has taken them 15-20 years to get around to doing much needed errata (greatly appreciated but i still don't agree with how it is being handled by PB ... perhaps it is actually production issues causing the problem?), how long will it be before they feel the need to join their competitors in the new century?

While I'll give that Palladium has fallen behind on errata recently (and likewise note that it has taken the measures necessary to pick it up again), suggesting that they don't/never do it is false. Palladium's website contains errata for twelve books by my count, plus extra material either out of print or excluded from a book due to space restrictions. Your suggestion that Palladium hasn't "gotten around" to errata in the last 15-20 years is the type of misinformation that is all too common. I'm sure you didn't do it on purpose, and were just stating your belief on the matter (possibly read here, posted by others speaking without any knowledge of the situation), but it's misinformation all the same.

(perhaps i should add this to my letter as well?)

Yes. Not to beat a dead horse, but complaining about the publishing process here on the boards doesn't do anybody any good. Palladium likely won't see it, and there's nothing any fan, freelancer, or mod can do about it. It's far more appropriate to send that sort of concern to Kevin (I'd suggest snail mail), and let him give you the answers/explanations that none of us can.

[Steve Dubya]

Palladium's website contains errata for twelve books by my count, plus extra material either out of print or excluded from a book due to space restrictions. Your suggestion that Palladium hasn't "gotten around" to errata in the last 15-20 years is the type of misinformation that is all too common.

This is true, but when you have supplied errata for just over 7% of the products that have been published, it is easy to see how it could be confused with "none at all."

[Jason Richards]

Palladium's website contains errata for twelve books by my count, plus extra material either out of print or excluded from a book due to space restrictions. Your suggestion that Palladium hasn't "gotten around" to errata in the last 15-20 years is the type of misinformation that is all too common.

This is true, but when you have supplied errata for just over 7% of the products that have been published, it is easy to see how it could be confused with "none at all."

Many (I'd guess most) products don't have errors affecting gameplay, and wouldn't require errata. Books with errors that "matter" to the gamers buying them, such as RUE, are the exception, not the rule. A misspelling of something or other corrected between printings doesn't require Palladium to issue an errata, does it?

[TechnoGothic]

Only things that really bugged me was :

1. JUICER PP missing (is it going to added in 2nd Printing ??)
2. BORG section details...page 46
3. That damn AD for that phone game

So these three things get fixed ??

I repeat...

Are these 3 things getting fixed ???

[The Galactus Kid]

They were corrected in the proof. I hope to God that they were fixed as they were some of the biggest complaints. We'll find out soon enough.

[Kryzbyn]

What about there not being enough poo-flinging monkey mutants?
Was that fixed?

[The Galactus Kid]

Check RIFTS: Arzno

[Kryzbyn]

Oh..my bad.
Oh wait! non-vampiric monkey poo flingers.
I tired Lone Star...Bradford hung up on me
Said sumtin about my genes...I dunno. Moody bastard

[The Galactus Kid]

lol. I was referring specifically to the Waste Monkey in Arzno.

P.S. - I talked to Kevin and my copy of the second printing is on the way.

[Kryzbyn]

LOL i have that book too...
Do the waste monkey fling poo?

[The Galactus Kid]

if not, they damn well should.

[Killer Cyborg]

All monkeys fling poo.
The shovel-hands would make it all the easier.

(Remind me to cancel that trip to Arzno)

[jgants]

Last session in my Rifts campaign, a couple of guys headed into the wastes. I was just going to use waste ghosts on them, but now I think I'll have poo-slinging waste monkeys attack them. And when they get in close, they'll find out they are vampire waste monkeys.

Muh hah ha...

[Kryzbyn]

Last session in my Rifts campaign, a couple of guys headed into the wastes. I was just going to use waste ghosts on them, but now I think I'll have poo-slinging waste monkeys attack them. And when they get in close, they'll find out they are vampire waste monkeys.

Muh hah ha...

[Preacher]

Only things that really bugged me was :

1. JUICER PP missing (is it going to added in 2nd Printing ??)
2. BORG section details...page 46
3. That damn AD for that phone game

So these three things get fixed ??

I repeat...

Are these 3 things getting fixed ???

The Ad is gone, replaced with the Coalition on the move painting. One of my favorites.

Borg stuff is different and fixed I think. I will detail more when I am not sick any longer and have time to read.. Maybe the weekend.

Juicer PP is there on pg. 79.

Any more fixes that you want to know make the cut. Post them and I will try to look into them. I just got my books today so I have not had much time to really compare and contrast.

[The Galactus Kid]

OK, I got my copy in the mail today so I'll start working on the official errata tonight. Hopefully I'll have it done by thursday.

[Shorty Lickens]

This stuff got fixed?!?!?

OK, so can I mail back my crappy first print RUE and get a new one for dirt cheap, or am I stuck with that piece of @*#&$^%! until I forgive Palladium and just buy the new version?

[The Galactus Kid]

R:ue is still playable. Not only that, but you will have a downloadable errata that you can keep with your book so you don't have to purchase another copy.

[mobuttu]

And what about Ley line effects in Invocations? Are they in there?

Q. (sorry for may bad english)

[The Galactus Kid]

Its in there. Not only is more P.P.E. available to draw, but also range and duration is increased by 50%

[maasenstodt]

I've been refreshing this thread every hour or so this evening waiting for the big results. While I imagine that it may take another day or so before the .pdf is announced and hosted by Palladium, I do hope that Brandon can post the changes known here in the meanwhile. I'd also be curious to know a rough percentage of the issues that were fixed vs. those submitted to Palladium.

FWIW, I have my wallet close at hand, ready to place an order with Palladium the moment I'm satisfied by the results.

[The Galactus Kid]

Ah. Wayne Smith is in the process of compiling a document for me as well. It shouldn't be too long now...I'm guessing middle of next week until I can get it to Wayne and then they have to host it.

[mobuttu]

Great! I look foward attaching these errata to my RUE Gold!!

Q.

[maasenstodt]

Ah. Wayne Smith is in the process of compiling a document for me as well. It shouldn't be too long now...I'm guessing middle of next week until I can get it to Wayne and then they have to host it.

It's been about a week now. Any updates?

[The Galactus Kid]

I got everything from Wayne and I'm currently working on it. It should be mostly if not completely done tomorrow since I don't have class or work.

[maasenstodt]

I got everything from Wayne and I'm currently working on it. It should be mostly if not completely done tomorrow since I don't have class or work.

Sounds good. I'm really looking forward to the results.

[maasenstodt]

Sounds good. I'm really looking forward to the results.

And I'm still looking forward to the results...

[The Galactus Kid]

Ahhhhhhh....

Yes, my friends. that is the sigh of relief. I just pulled an all-nighter in order to finish that document for all of you guys. Now I have to go to a full day of work and then write a paper tonight and then work on TRIAX 2.

Regardless, I sent the document to Wayne Smith and CC'd Kevin on the E-mail so they'll be getting it soon. I know it won't take too long to convert to .pdf and post it, but first they just have to find a place for it. BUT i just wanted to inform you all that its out of my hands now and should be SOMEWHERE for your availability sometime very very soon.

(sheesh...the things I do for you guys...)

[Shotgun Jolly]

Ahhhhhhh....

Yes, my friends. that is the sigh of relief. I just pulled an all-nighter in order to finish that document for all of you guys. Now I have to go to a full day of work and then write a paper tonight and then work on TRIAX 2.

Regardless, I sent the document to Wayne Smith and CC'd Kevin on the E-mail so they'll be getting it soon. I know it won't take too long to convert to .pdf and post it, but first they just have to find a place for it. BUT i just wanted to inform you all that its out of my hands now and should be SOMEWHERE for your availability sometime very very soon.

(sheesh...the things I do for you guys...)

I knew it wouldnt take you long to do it!!! I look forward to getting the copy of it!

I will make sure it gets put to good use!.

Thanks!

[maasenstodt]

I consider myself a patient man, but the amount of time it is taking to produce this document is getting ridiculous.

[The Galactus Kid]

well, its out of my hands now. It has been passed on to Palladium a while ago. I think they are just revising the format a bit.

[maasenstodt]

well, its out of my hands now. It has been passed on to Palladium a while ago. I think they are just revising the format a bit.

Please don't get me wrong, Brandon. I think you've done all Palladium fans a service in your efforts to get the errata done, and it's a credit to you.

My frustration stems from how long the company is dragging out what should take them no more than a couple of hours to complete. I understand that they're busy, but so are most other professional RPG companies. Yet, for those others, errata is handled in days or weeks after a product's release. RUE has been out for a year and a half, and the 2nd printing, as of today, has been out for a month.

I think this thread provides some evidence that I'm not unreasonably impatient on these matters, but I do think it's important to once again underscore for Kevin & Co. that even for those who have tried to bear with Palladium's foibles, the willingness to do so does eventually wear thin. The money I had standing buy to purchase a stack of Palladium books several weeks back once the errata was released has already started to go to other, more responsive publishers.

[Sureshot]

My frustration stems from how long the company is dragging out what should take them no more than a couple of hours to complete. I understand that they're busy, but so are most other professional RPG companies. Yet, for those others, errata is handled in days or weeks after a product's release. RUE has been out for a year and a half, and the 2nd printing, as of today, has been out for a month.

I think this thread provides some evidence that I'm not unreasonably impatient on these matters, but I do think it's important to once again underscore for Kevin & Co. that even for those who have tried to bear with Palladium's foibles, the willingness to do so does eventually wear thin. The money I had standing buy to purchase a stack of Palladium books several weeks back once the errata was released has already started to go to other, more responsive publishers.

Agreeded and seconded.

[dark brandon]

well, its out of my hands now. It has been passed on to Palladium a while ago. I think they are just revising the format a bit.

Please don't get me wrong, Brandon. I think you've done all Palladium fans a service in your efforts to get the errata done, and it's a credit to you.

My frustration stems from how long the company is dragging out what should take them no more than a couple of hours to complete. I understand that they're busy, but so are most other professional RPG companies. Yet, for those others, errata is handled in days or weeks after a product's release. RUE has been out for a year and a half, and the 2nd printing, as of today, has been out for a month.

I think this thread provides some evidence that I'm not unreasonably impatient on these matters, but I do think it's important to once again underscore for Kevin & Co. that even for those who have tried to bear with Palladium's foibles, the willingness to do so does eventually wear thin. The money I had standing buy to purchase a stack of Palladium books several weeks back once the errata was released has already started to go to other, more responsive publishers.

I think the question is "how important is it to get the errata" vs. "Working on new products".

In all honesty, unless it involves the company getting money, it probably won't be out in any reasonable amount of time. True, you and some others have moved on to more "responsive" publishers, but the majority of their clientel I don't think really care about errata to the point they stop buying books and take their business elsewhere. It's lost money for them, yes, but then so is every day they don't have a new product out for the buying. Since they have limited man-hours it comes down to which end to sacrifice. I sincerly doubt they are taking any joy at the fact they have to push for so much with so little. They arn't sitting at their computers goings

"hey wayne?"

"Yeah kev?"

"Check it out on the interwebs! Look at how much frustration and grief we're causing our fans. isn't it awesome. Are you almost done with RIFTS: Australia 2 and RIFTS: Lemoria?"

"Yeah, Kev, been done for about two years now."

"What?!"

"Er...I mean...no...i'm "working" on other things..."

Both cackle evilly at the suffering they've caused while devouring an unborn baby.

[maasenstodt]

I think the question is "how important is it to get the errata" vs. "Working on new products".

In all honesty, unless it involves the company getting money, it probably won't be out in any reasonable amount of time. True, you and some others have moved on to more "responsive" publishers, but the majority of their clientel I don't think really care about errata to the point they stop buying books and take their business elsewhere. It's lost money for them, yes, but then so is every day they don't have a new product out for the buying. Since they have limited man-hours it comes down to which end to sacrifice. I sincerly doubt they are taking any joy at the fact they have to push for so much with so little.

If addressing errata took a large amount of time, I wouldn't be arguing this point so vociferously. That, however, is simply not the case. From what I've read, most of the work right now seems to be done by freelancers anyhow, meaning that asides from reading it over, possibly making a few edits, and the time it takes to upload the document and post a note on the website, there's little effort required by Kevin, Wayne, or anyone else at Palladium to attend to errata. They've had a year and a half to do those things, yet what shouldn't take more than a couple of hours remains unfinished.

Perhaps I take more pride in my work than does Kevin. Perhaps I care more about following through with customer service than does Palladium.

I don't know those things. But even if I am unreasonable and you're right about most Palladium fans not really caring whether errata is addressed, I'd still find Kevin & Co.'s behavior illogical. Even if addressing errata required 6 hours, 8 hours, or a ridiculous 10 hours to pull off, if it increased a title's sales by a meager 1-2%, by my estimation the end result is at worst a break even endeavor. What's more, it enhances the company's reputation, strengthens customer loyalty, and gets Palladium closer to its stated goal of leading the industry.

I could be wrong about all of that, but I doubt it. And even if it puts off the release of every new title by that one, single day, how can that not be worth the effort? I just don't see it.

[dark brandon]

If addressing errata took a large amount of time, I wouldn't be arguing this point so vociferously. That, however, is simply not the case. From what I've read, most of the work right now seems to be done by freelancers anyhow, meaning that asides from reading it over, possibly making a few edits, and the time it takes to upload the document and post a note on the website, there's little effort required by Kevin, Wayne, or anyone else at Palladium to attend to errata. They've had a year and a half to do those things, yet what shouldn't take more than a couple of hours remains unfinished.

Perhaps I take more pride in my work than does Kevin. Perhaps I care more about following through with customer service than does Palladium.

What makes you think he doesn't take pride in his work? Perhaps you have missed it, but there are numerious titles that have not seen the light of day because they are, in kevins words "crap". If he was in it for the buck, if he didn't have pride in his work, do you not think we would see many many more titles out?

As for customer service, there are many instances in (All things palladium folder I think), of customers saying how great the CS is. From people who said their packages got lost in the mail and the quick responce. Even Bill Coffin made note of how he got his package as promised. Also note the low price of palladium when they could charge much more to keep up with the current market. They don't jack up prices because they care, and that is something every customer wants, low prices.

Just because a company doesn't do everything you ask of them does not mean they have poor CS.

I don't know those things. But even if I am unreasonable and you're right about most Palladium fans not really caring whether errata is addressed, I'd still find Kevin & Co.'s behavior illogical. Even if addressing errata required 6 hours, 8 hours, or a ridiculous 10 hours to pull off, if it increased a title's sales by a meager 1-2%, by my estimation the end result is at worst a break even endeavor. What's more, it enhances the company's reputation, strengthens customer loyalty, and gets Palladium closer to its stated goal of leading the industry.

I could be wrong about all of that, but I doubt it. And even if it puts off the release of every new title by that one, single day, how can that not be worth the effort? I just don't see it.

Having met K and the rest, this is not the case. They do care about their customers, and they do take a great amount of pride in their work. If they cannot, because of current circumstances have the ability to spend 6 hours or whatever to post this errata, this tells me exactly how strapped for time and manpower they are. This tells me how close to the edge palladium is.

PS: I highly doubt that posting errata will increase sales by 1-2% (this is not a meager number increase). In fact, I would be more likely to believe that there would be no noticable increase in sales. I could be wrong, I doubt it, but it is a gamble, and if they lose 1 days work to something that will have no noticable effect in a time when they need noticable effects, it is in essence a day waisted.

[dark brandon]

as for increasing sales? i don't think that the errata itself would affect sales directly. but it could/would improve customer loyalty and improve the lackluster image that others have of PB who are not already die hard fans. that inturn brings in more fans who buy more books which means they are making more money so that they can make more books to sell. the benefits of producing errata, i believe, far outweighs any time lost due to the effort made to produce it.

I just don't see how producing errata promotes customer loyalty. Just for example, take D&D. I know just as many people who play D&D without errata as i do with errata. Continuing on that line, for example, they produce books with great amount of mistakes which is posted by fans asking for errata yet I don't think them not posting an errata immediatly hurts their sales (I think the last major errata post was on Book of 9 swords which they have yet to errata though there were many mistakes.) or hurts their customer loyalty. Don't get me wrong, they DO have errata for books, but they are hardly 'quick' about posting that errata.

It seems quality of what is written rather than how it's written seems to be a greater factor. For example, again, Complete Psionics I believe was concidered a flop to D&D because of low sales which stems from poor quality of information of the book (The book was crap apperently).

My final example is that when I've asked people who have played RIFTS and disliked it why they disliked it, I've only heard 2 people say it's because of edititing of course that was the last of a long list of reasons. Most I've asked dislike it because they feel the rules are confusing (somethign errata won't fix) and they believe it's power gaming (again, something errata won't fix).

as a general rule if you want to be top dog, you have to put in the extra effort to reach the top of the dog pile. not just talk about.

I agree, and hearing about them work something like 16 hour days is something I would concider "extra" effort. Of course I think that they hurt themselves more by still doing things old-school (Physically cutting and pasting a book together rather than use the computer and computer software to do it).

I'm not saying anyone's wrong for asking for it, I myself would like it. Personally, I'd rather have a board or something where kevin answers a rule question more so than I would rather have errata. In a perfect world, we could have both, and more. I am saying though that saying "Because you don't put errata you must hate your customers and you have no pride in your product" just doesn't seem to be productive and is just plain wrong. I probably wouldn't have chimed in on this if it was simply asking for when the errata would be out, why isn't it out...ect...I even agree they lose some money by not posting errata regularly. But I don't think it's anywhere close to 1% loss of sales and I doubt they lose much customer loyalty.

[maasenstodt]

What makes you think he doesn't take pride in his work? Perhaps you have missed it, but there are numerious titles that have not seen the light of day because they are, in kevins words "crap". If he was in it for the buck, if he didn't have pride in his work, do you not think we would see many many more titles out?

I never said, nor do I believe, that Kevin does not take pride in his work.

As for customer service, there are many instances in (All things palladium folder I think), of customers saying how great the CS is. From people who said their packages got lost in the mail and the quick responce. Even Bill Coffin made note of how he got his package as promised. Also note the low price of palladium when they could charge much more to keep up with the current market. They don't jack up prices because they care, and that is something every customer wants, low prices.

Just because a company doesn't do everything you ask of them does not mean they have poor CS.

I completely agree that Palladium works hard to get its products into its customers' hands. But customer service shouldn't (and with most good companies, doesn't) end once that transaction is made. Indeed, I would argue that customer service is most important after the sale.

Grab bags are great. Low prices are great. But when I encounter a problem with a product, getting the support I deserve is worth at least as much.

Having met K and the rest, this is not the case. They do care about their customers, and they do take a great amount of pride in their work. If they cannot, because of current circumstances have the ability to spend 6 hours or whatever to post this errata, this tells me exactly how strapped for time and manpower they are. This tells me how close to the edge palladium is.

Because I believe that things are strained for the boys in Taylor, because I've given credence to the freelancers who say that Kevin & Co. do want to improve things in this area, and because I have an investment in Palladium, I've waited for Palladium to get its rear in gear and not written them off. But when promises go unfulfilled for years on end, and when I visit the website every few days to be disappointed once again, it brings me pretty close to the edge as well.

PS: I highly doubt that posting errata will increase sales by 1-2% (this is not a meager number increase). In fact, I would be more likely to believe that there would be no noticable increase in sales. I could be wrong, I doubt it, but it is a gamble, and if they lose 1 days work to something that will have no noticable effect in a time when they need noticable effects, it is in essence a day waisted.

I don't make any bones about the fact that my estimation is speculation. That said, I think EPIC did a good job in touching on how sales could increase as Palladium addresses errata. I think he's right. Palladium has lost a lot of gamers over the years, and I think for some of them (like myself), the notion that the company doesn't care to the same degree that its competitors do is a significant reason in their decision to leave. Providing errata could be the first step in gaining some of them back - again, I'm in that camp, and I know I'm not alone.

[jgants]

So, still no errata up on the website, huh?

I realize everyone is busy and all, but a lot of people have been waiting for this. Plus, it doesn't take any more time that it does to post one of Kevin's murmurs or a new press release (probably much less time - I don't see how it would take more than a few minutes).

[The Galactus Kid]

I'll call in the morning and see what the hold up is.

[dark brandon]

What makes you think he doesn't take pride in his work? Perhaps you have missed it, but there are numerious titles that have not seen the light of day because they are, in kevins words "crap". If he was in it for the buck, if he didn't have pride in his work, do you not think we would see many many more titles out?

I never said, nor do I believe, that Kevin does not take pride in his work.

Perhaps I take more pride in my work than does Kevin. Perhaps I care more about following through with customer service than does Palladium

I should have been more specific, I didn't mean that you suggested that he takes no pride, but in fact he takes a great deal of pride. He takes a great amount of pride in his customer service. I don't know you, or what situations you have/have not been in, but I do think that of all the people I've met in my life, Kevin has the most pride in his work as I've ever seen, and he's very proud of his customer service, which is top grade for what they can offer.

mention this because in the department of the quality of PBs product (by product i mean everything that comes before and after purchase), it does not seem to justify 16 hours a day at the office when compared to the quality of other similar products. for all of Kevins hard work to become the best in the business, they aren't gaining any ground in that respect (i.m.o.). i love PB and will never give them up, but when a company claims to want to be the best there is or ever was while continuously gets bad reviews and neggative criticism about their products, it tells me they could be doing things a little better than what they currently are. errata is just a small step in that direction.

The idea of "the best" is subjective. When wizards want to be "the best" it's to maximize profit, which is why we see things like "complete psionic". When palladium claims to be "the best" I think it's more along the lines of keeping a product out that sells well without having to resort to "selling out" if you will. Since it's all subjective, what is good for Kevin may not seem good to us (Siege on tolkeen for example). As such, "The best" is what my old economics teacher would call a "glitter word". It's there to make something pretty, but in essense holds no real value.

before you criticize what my dad says about hard worker vs good worker

Why would anyone criticize, he's right. Though you must realize that putting out a magazine is alot different than putting out an RPG. While they are both of the same medium, the journey to the ends are going to be different.

(i hope this does not offend anyone or see it as an attack as that is not my intention. i know i have touched on some sensitive issues and i may not have used the best tact in doing so as it was hastily written, forgive me if this is the case or give me the boot if you find it truely offensive, i won't complain.)

I don't think anyone was offended, I don't even think I was defending palladium all that much. I am mearly pointing out some things people may not know. DOn't get me wrong, I love palladium, but I also love other game systems, so don't think of me as a fanboi defending palladium. I just happen to have a bit of insight. I understand if people become frustrated with palladium and that's ok, I just want them to be frustrated for the right reasons. IE: Palladium doesn't do something not because they enjoy being cruel to their fanbase, but because they really honestly don't have the time.

Like I said, I understand. I am stuck playing a game that is only 1/3 of the way complete...trust me, I understand frustration, I need my tome grotesque and arcanum....

[Sureshot]

Very well said Epic I agree with most of if not all your post. I think what bothers me the most is PB unwillingness to change. At least imo. Kevin says that he wants to make PB a force to be reckoned with in the gaming industry but the thing about that is that imo it's going to require a few changes at PB.

The fanbase is changing and you can't just slap a book toghter any which way and expect them to buy it eyes closed anymore. Sure PB books are cheap and in some cases better in quality but for some fans it's just not enough anymore. If it was companies like Wotc and WW and other big rpg companies would have gone out of business years ago.

Somethings they can't change I understand that. Asking for better layout, concise, clear, playtested rules and errata is not to much to ask.

[dark brandon]

Very well said Epic I agree with most of if not all your post. I think what bothers me the most is PB unwillingness to change. At least imo.

This is pretty much been stated as is. In the words of the creator, Kevin "It's worked so far, why change it". For better or worse this is the outlook he's taken, and this should come as no surprise.

For example, kevin still does cut and paste when putting together a new book. Me, Brandon aten and Taylor white have a friend who can put together books on a computer (saving time and money) and was willing to do this work for free for kevin (at least at first), to show how much better it is. He has yet to be contacted. It's just the way Kevin works and he has not kept it a secret. So you shouldn't be bothered by it, simply because you knew (and know) about how kevin sees things.

Epic: I agree with what you say, but alot of what you say requires things such as time or money. Sometimes (Such as in palladiums case, I believe) are two things the company can't spare. You make valid points all around, but when it comes down to it, alot of what you suggest isn't something that can be done overnight, and not in the situation they currently are in.

It's like someone who has the flu and telling them to stay in bed, drink fluids and get lots of rest so that next week you can work twice as hard and not feel broken is great advice. But if rent is due next week, and the kids are hungry now, and you have the mailman at the door...it's not advice one can use.

[maasenstodt]

It's like someone who has the flu and telling them to stay in bed, drink fluids and get lots of rest so that next week you can work twice as hard and not feel broken is great advice. But if rent is due next week, and the kids are hungry now, and you have the mailman at the door...it's not advice one can use.

That's an apt analogy if one is talking about overhauling Palladium's production process. When getting back to the topic of errata, however, things change.

For Palladium to have created and put out errata when they sent RUE2 to print wouldn't have been much of a chore, even if the company is sick. To follow your analogy, it would be like not making a quick stop by a store during the course of a day to pick up some cough drops, even though they've had about a month and a half to do so and they promised their boss that they would.

Moreover, Brandon has now done virtually all the work for the company. Heck, he sent it to them almost two weeks ago, and it still hasn't been acted on. Again to use your analogy, it's as though somebody else bought the drops and gave them to this person but they won't take the time to unwrap one and pop it in their mouth, even though their cough is becoming increasingly irritable to those around them.

I'm starting to reach wit's end on this issue. Perhaps I should stop wasting my time and just check back this fall to see if Kevin & Co. ever got their act together. If they did, then I could give their products a shot again through the Grab Bag. If they follow tradition and leave me in the cold, however, I could at that point safely say I've given Kevin his last opportunity to win me over again.

[Sureshot]

The thing is Brandon the guy with the flu is never going to heal up if he never makes any effort to cure himself. He can try and tough it out like he's done in the past and hope it doesn't get worst and hopes it goes way.

It seems like things done by both big and small companies take forever to do by PB. In this we are talking about errata. They have had more than enough time to post something up. It seems that with the possible exception of Brandon and Jason Richards no one at the company can be bothered to do this. And if you want to stand out in the gaming industry you have to it's not a choice.

The only reason the company is still around is because for the most part they have good material but mostly because they have some very forgiving fans. But small things like PB not bothering and unwilling for the most part to make a major effort on errata turns the casual gamer off the product.

I'm sure someone will point out that Wotc has errors in their books and they do but considering how much errata they have versus PB errata it's no contest. Sure Wotc may have more resources but other smaller companies than PB do a better job in that department. The only real effort i see with errata is that they ask the fans to do it for them which is start but they should do it first ask us later.

What does bother me do is that Kevin gives the impression that major changes are going to happen at PB when in reality it just seems a smokescreen to continue as before because you know "They been in thhe business 26 years" so they must be doing everything right. At least that the impression I get and it may very well be a wrong one.

The big focus at the moment seems to be new product which is what it should be. As long as they don't forget to improve on the older product too.

[Sureshot]

I'll call in the morning and see what the hold up is.

Any new developemnt that you can tell us about?

[dark brandon]

If they follow tradition and leave me in the cold, however, I could at that point safely say I've given Kevin his last opportunity to win me over again.

You sound like a battered girlfriend.

It's just a game my friend.

Either you like a product or don't. Me personally, If palladium doesn't have anything come out that I don't enjoy, I won't buy from them. When they do release something I may be interested in, I will.

You shouldn't buy something just because X company sells it. You buy something because you either need or enjoy it. If all you believe Palladium has released is "crap" then, I'm sorry. I disagree, I think madhaven, dino swamp...ect are all fine products, but if you do, then you shouldn't buy them. If all that is keeping you from buying palladium products is an errata line, then, keep the websight bookmarked, check on it every so often, and go buy somethign that makes you happy until palladium can post errata, and then buy palladium products that have errata. Nothing says you have to only buy from one RPG line, and nothing says you can't enjoy more than one game.

[dark brandon]

The thing is Brandon the guy with the flu is never going to heal up if he never makes any effort to cure himself. He can try and tough it out like he's done in the past and hope it doesn't get worst and hopes it goes way.

at exactly what point does one decide, "hey it's time to take a day off and take my medicine then get back to work when i feel better."

some times it's more productive to miss a few days at the office than it is to continuously show up sick, tired and run down with a flu that will not go away because you don't make the effort to get better first.

Perhaps the seriousness of the situation isn't setting in. Let me change the analogy a bit to better reflect this.

You have a cold, and while it would be better over-all to take the day off to rest, you need to make your money, because next week your payment to the mofia is due, and unless you come up with the cash, you're going to be taking a dirt-nap, and something tells you that telling "the godfather" that you were sick and you took a day off just won't cut it.

What does bother me do is that Kevin gives the impression that major changes are going to happen at PB when in reality it just seems a smokescreen to continue as before because you know "They been in thhe business 26 years" so they must be doing everything right. At least that the impression I get and it may very well be a wrong one.

You've been told there will never be a 2nd ed. You've been told kevin is happy with the way his company is. From all i've seen, nothing major seems to be changing other than he has some great ideas for newer RPG's. He does give impressions of change, such as increased (we hoped) support for other product lines, as well as new talented writers. But in no way has he suggested anything more than this, at least none that I could tell.

in another analogy ... a lion doesn't stay the king of the jungle if he doesn't sharpen his claws.

or how bout this one ... it's always the slowest and the sickest of the herd that gets eaten by the predators.

or my bosses personal fave ... if you smell a fart in the car do something about it, don't just sit there wallowing in the stink.

All valid proverbs, once again, you missed the part where I suggested palladium (as I'm seeing it) is currently doing all it can. To suggest they do more isn't a viable option. Currently, they can't. If they can't get some errata on the websight, knowing they have the intention of doing so (as kevin and Brandon have both pointed out) I would hope that would leave some insight into exactly how much room they have to move to do something...IE: None.