Favorite Non-US Rifle

[Grey Death]

In bolt action rifles I would have to go with the Mauser 98
Of assault rifles AK-47, although that FN F2000 looks interesting.

[BigLEE]

Bolt Action Swiss K31
Battle Rifle FN FAL
Assault Rifle SIG 550

[Jefffar]

FAMAS

F-1 or G-2?

[Lord_Dalgard]

Chello!

Bolt-Action: Soviet Mosin Nagant M44 carbine
Battle Rifle: FN FAL
Assault: any of the AKs

tony

[Rockwolf66]

My family is half British so I have used british issue rifles that made it to the US.


Bolt- Action: Lee- Enfield MK IV
Assault Rifle: Steyr Aug, as the one I got to play with felt rather nice. Although you have to take your eyes off your target to reload.
Battle Rifle: FN-FAL
Automatic Rifle: RPK.

[LJ]

I have to go with the Mauser 98K

[Rockwolf66]

I have to go with the Mauser 98K

Not a bad choice. Hanns uses one for deer hunting when he takes a break from his HK-91. I like the fact that their of higher quality than the Nagant Carbines.

[Lord_Dalgard]

Chello!

I like the fact that their of higher quality than the Nagant Carbines.

That's debateable..the trick is, you have to have the bayonet extended on the M44...otherwise, it's less accurate. I know that sounds silly, but firing it at the range, that's what we've all discovered. Weird.

Besides, you can pick them up for ~$100 US.

Tony

[Lord_Dalgard]

Oh, and duck-foot, I think the going rate for a 98K is ~400-600.

Tony

[Svartalf]

FAMAS

Why that? Even though the feed/jamming problems encountered in early versions are mostly solved, and the fact that the FAMAS WAS a groundbreaking weapon in its time, it still has the problem of being the assault rifle version of a disposable lighter... parts get worn out MUCH too fast.

[Lord_Dalgard]

Chello!

That's why I like the FN FAL as well. Reach out and touch somebody!

Tony

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Rifle: Mauser Tankgewehr 1918 13.3mm

Assualt Rifle: CETME Model C 7.62mmX51 NATO

~ Josh

[Svartalf]

FN-FAL is like the M-14, great on semi, heck to control on full-auto. But you can engage a target if you can see it, 7.62 has some reach.

Honestly, do you know any 7.62 rifle that can really be controlled on full auto? Even for the cut down 7.62 Ru, the original AK is famous for having the precision of a firehose... Why do you think the main military caliber was downsized to 5.56, and full auto often substituted with the 3 rd burst? Contollability when multiple firing is the key, AFAIK.

Because, for range, armor piercing ability, and precision shooting, the old 7.62x51 still is the best cased cartridge yet devised for use on human targets.

[Rockwolf66]

Honestly, do you know any 7.62 rifle that can really be controlled on full auto? Even for the cut down 7.62 Ru, the original AK is famous for having the precision of a firehose... Why do you think the main military caliber was downsized to 5.56, and full auto often substituted with the 3 rd burst? Contollability when multiple firing is the key, AFAIK.

Sig SG510-1
FN-FAL
H&K G-3
M-14E2
AK-47
They are all controlable if one trains moderatly and uses Trigger control. If you are just dumping magazines even an experianced user will waste alot of ammo. case in point, My friend Mark Cook has performed magazine dumps with his G-3A3 battle rifle at IDPA targets at 50m. even after 8 years in the USMC and another 20+ as a firearms instructor. his hit rate with a magazine dump is 50%. when I myself with alot less training and experience fires controled bursts at 100m at an IDPA target I get a higher percentage of hits. My Polish friend Van Atta gets similar results with his Polish army issue AKM.

I'd like to know where you guys are getting trigger time on all these exotics that your choosing as favorites.

Friends and rental places whenever I get outside of California. Not that I can't legally find them in California, it's just that the powers that be don't like ordinary citizens using them.

[BigLEE]

I'd like to know where you guys are getting trigger time on all these exotics that your choosing as favorites.

SIG 550

I got to shoot a SIG 550 over in Switzerland (also got to shoot a SIG 510.) SIG has just released an Americanized version of the rifle, the SIG 556.

[Jefffar]

I've only ever fired one longarm, a bolt action .22 using BB ammunition.

Doesn't mean I haven't an interest in guns and would like to have the chance to work with quite a number of models. It also doens't mean I don't have an opinion of them that I havemade from listening to those who have experienced actually using said weapons.

[lather]

AN-94 or AS Val.

[Wooly]

Laux the Ogre: Tavor TAR-21. Not found outside the IDF. Though a semi-auto copy is imported into Canada IIRC. I was surprised to hear that the IDF opted for the short barrel version as their standard infantry rifle.

ThunderhorseCA: STG 44. A 70 year old collectors piece. The genuine article is definitely a rarity. I had the opportunity to fire one once. Rented from a rental company that catered to Hollywood studios. I found it heavy and it rattled due to its sheet metal construction. The weapon I fired also required that the magazine be held with upward force otherwise failure to feed. But I suspect that was a malfunction specific to this model.

Zamion: AK47 is garbage for anything past 200 meters. It's minute of man accuracy is acceptable because most firefights take place under 300m. The leaf sights are really the worst thing about them. Noveske Rifleworks makes a neat replacement for the leaf sight which replaces the notch with a ghost ring similar to the sights on WWII Japanese Arisaka rifles.

The SVD is more of a designated marksman rifle than a true sniper rifle. A dated design an much too long. I have fired the Tabuk which is sort of an Iraqi 7.62 x 39 2nd cousin to the SVD, in doctrine but not mechanically speaking.

lather: The AN-94 or AS Val? Unless you are a elite Russian military or interior ministry unit I doubt you have any first hand experience with these weapons. The AN-94 was suppose to replace the AK-74 several years ago, but the complexity and cost (and rumors of a lack of durability) killed that.

[Jefffar]

Wooly in regards to the 47, remember that in Soviet use and doctrine it was intended to replace a submachinegun, not a rifle.

[Rockwolf66]

I have been to knob creek several times and NEVER seen a FAMAS. I don't know that there are any class III transferable ones in the United States.

As I have said before in the other "favorite weapon" posts if how can it be a favorite when you have never picked one up, much less fired one. Asthetics? Its stats on paper? Usually I am shouted down on this

There are Pre-86 dealer's samples of the FAMAS out there...it's just that they are really rare. About 2003 if you could find one it was $8,000...

Personally I think I'm going to buy a quartet of Golani Sporters and then have a skilled gunsmith convert them into a Galil family from ARM, AR, SAR to MAR.

[Wooly]

I have been to knob creek several times and NEVER seen a FAMAS. I don't know that there are any class III transferable ones in the United States.

As I have said before in the other "favorite weapon" posts if how can it be a favorite when you have never picked one up, much less fired one. Asthetics? Its stats on paper? Usually I am shouted down on this

There are Pre-86 dealer's samples of the FAMAS out there...it's just that they are really rare. About 2003 if you could find one it was $8,000...

Personally I think I'm going to buy a quartet of Golani Sporters and then have a skilled gunsmith convert them into a Galil family from ARM, AR, SAR to MAR.

The monkeys that Century Arms employs to assemble part kits are hit or miss. The "Golani Sporters" have been plagued with quality control issues. Most notably they are not 100% parts interchangeable with IMI Galils. Which makes you wonder just whose tolerances are they using in their blueprints. Just hope you can find four good ones.

The Galil is a neat rifle but it is heavy for a 5.56 assault rifle. The ARM is nearly 10 lbs unloaded IIRC.

[Rockwolf66]

Wooly,
I'm planning on takeing four Golani sporters and then sending them off to a good gunsmith along with whatever parts my contacts can find to make working clones of the Galil family.

As far as the weight goes I have a shotgun that when it's loaded up with slug and the spare carriers are filled it's about 12. yeah it's a female dog when the heats up round 120.

[slade the sniper]

I'd like to know where you guys are getting trigger time on all these exotics that your choosing as favorites.

Friends and rental places whenever I get outside of California. Not that I can't legally find them in California, it's just that the powers that be don't like ordinary citizens using them.

I was refering to:

Mauser Tankgewehr 1918 13.3mm

FAMAS

HK G-36

SIG 550

FN F2000

I have been to knob creek several times and NEVER seen a FAMAS. I don't know that there are any class III transferable ones in the United States.

As I have said before in the other "favorite weapon" posts if how can it be a favorite when you have never picked one up, much less fired one. Asthetics? Its stats on paper? Usually I am shouted down on this

There are not enough of these weapons hanging around for average joe to fire them enough to truly have "real deal killing time favorites"... After all, people have favorite mecha and tanks and fighters based on paper performance and aesthetics...why not rifles and pistols?

Not that I agree with this precedent, but if I had to use items, then I guess my favorite tank would be the M1, favorite AFV would be the M2A3 and I couldn't have a favorite jet (F-14D) or mecha (VF-1S Super)...

-STS

[slade the sniper]

I've only ever fired one longarm, a bolt action .22 using BB ammunition.

If you are ever in central texas, drop me a line and we can definitely fix this issue...

-STS

[Jefffar]

I've only ever fired one longarm, a bolt action .22 using BB ammunition.

If you are ever in central texas, drop me a line and we can definitely fix this issue...

-STS

D'oh, was there twice in the last 2 years but probably won't get back there for quite some time.

[slade the sniper]

Well, I would say Arizona or DC, but all my toys are in Texas

-STS

[batlchip]

I like the FN P90 for house clearing and a AK-47 for a main.

[Rockwolf66]

I'm going to the Saddle Butte machinegun shoot next Month. I'll be taking as many pictures as i can and I'll try to give a couple range reports.

[Dominique]

I like the FN P90 for house clearing and a AK-47 for a main.

I've fired both. I used the P90 for a room clearing exercise, the Orange County Sheriff's Office, back in 02. I had trouble with it, because I wasn't used to its size, and I didn't like that the rounds ejected strait down. When your walking down a dark hall way, which might be slippery, and/or fill with smoke, loosing your footing on loose shell casings could cause you, and the guy in front of you to have bad day. But, other guys loved it, so I might have just been me.

[Rockwolf66]

I like the FN P90 for house clearing and a AK-47 for a main.

I've fired both. I used the P90 for a room clearing exercise, the Orange County Sheriff's Office, back in 02. I had trouble with it, because I wasn't used to its size, and I didn't like that the rounds ejected strait down. When your walking down a dark hall way, which might be slippery, and/or fill with smoke, loosing your footing on loose shell casings could cause you, and the guy in front of you to have bad day. But, other guys loved it, so I might have just been me.

Personally I don't like the feel of a P90. To me it feels like my hands are scrunched together and I know that shooting gloves make it feel worse. I have no problems with a MP5K...theres some distance between my hands. I feel the same way with a M93R as i do with the P90. The ergonomics are off to me.

[Jefffar]

I like the FN P90 except for one key item - the cartridge it fires. Yes it has better odds at penetrating body armour than a 9mm, but it isn't nearly as lethal. It's an SMG trying to be a light assault rifle but with none of the oomph. I say either use proper pistol ammo or a more potent round like the 6.5mm KAC PDW round.

I'd love to see a lot of guns using a number of the P90's other design features. Think of a full powered 5.56mm weapon for special forces use.

[Rockwolf66]

Jeffer,
It's called a FN 2000. We had one at the shoot I attended yesterday and it wasn't very popular. Most people that I've met with experiance with them don't like how they feel, for an assault rifle they are thick and bulky.

I myself just had some lovely trigger time on a Galil SAR among other things.

[Jefffar]

The FN2000 has a number of the P90's features, which is unsurprising given the origin of both weapons. One of the features I was thinking might be worth co-opting is the format of the magazine. I've seen sketches of a 5.56 mm weapon with a similar magazine style (though it was mounted alongside instead of on top of the weapon to keep width down). If it worked out could lead to very impressive magazine capacity while keeping the weapon compact.

[Rockwolf66]

The FN2000 has a number of the P90's features, which is unsurprising given the origin of both weapons. One of the features I was thinking might be worth co-opting is the format of the magazine. I've seen sketches of a 5.56 mm weapon with a similar magazine style (though it was mounted alongside instead of on top of the weapon to keep width down). If it worked out could lead to very impressive magazine capacity while keeping the weapon compact.

As you said it was a sketch. Currently there is a local firearms company that designed a 12 gauge pump-action shotgun useing a P90 style magazine. It's effectivly vaporware as the Halo P-12 shotgun has been in development for years and nobody has seen any prototype fire off a single shot. This does not boad well for the design. Basically the P90 is a dead end in the evolution of firearms. Simply put it has too few advantages over much more conventional designs.

Well here is

My Saturday

Note that not only was there a P90 but there was the only dealer sample MP7 in the pacific northwest there.

[DB 2.0]

got to love the SLR (L1-A1), none of the jamming problems of the AR-15 descendents, and it just has the range penetration and stopping power, as more than one Nam Vet has told me nothing like at 200m nailing Mr. Charles hiding behind a tree and having him drop, so much better than at less than 50m emptying a M-16 clip in to a target, scoring only 5-10 hits and having him still running at you or shooting back

True Story: when the Styer was undergoing adoption trials for the ADF I was at one of the evaluation test fireings there where three guns being shot, the then current issue SLR, a M-16 (in limited issue, plans to widen the issue depending on trial results) and the Styer. there where metal targets set up ranging from 20m out to 300m. the M-16 would harmlessly plink of the targets, sometimes not even chipping the paint at 50m or grater and rarely hitting the targets out at 150m. the SLR at all ranges would either blow holes in (or pieces clear off) the targets, make bloody large dents in the targets or knock them clean over. then the Styer would just put nice clean little holes in every target it hit all the way out to 300m. turned out the targets had bean cut out of the side of M-113's. a little wile later the Styer was replacing the SLR in Australian service.

[slade the sniper]

Well, that would appear to be a bit unfair. The L1A1 is 7.62mm while the Steyr and M16 are both 5.56mm. If the Steyr and the M16 were firing similar ammo, there should not have been that much of a variation, unless there was some variation in barrel length/twist between two (such as the 1:9 for the Steyr instead of the 1:7 in the M16A2). I would need a bit more info to determine why there was such a variation, but saying that the Steyr is better than the M16 and its variants is a bit odd. Granted, if you were seeing the Steyr fire SS109/M855 rounds vs an M4 firing M193, then your assessment would be accurate...

-STS

[DB 2.0]

Actually the M-16's where A1's, I'd bean told the ADF was offered U.S. A1 Warstocks at almost as good as free, but the ADF wanted a domestically produced 5.56 and the M-16 A1 failed to impress.

back in the day ADF standard procedure for the use of a M-16 to use it as a Signal Arm and as a stock for a M-203, an officer would aim in to the air and depress the trigger till the weapon jammed or the magazine emptied this meant commence ambush or engage targets at will, if the office fired in a particular detection it meant engage my target or engage targets on that approach.

[SpiritInterface]

For CQB / room clearing I like the FN P90.
For a battle rifle I like the HK G36 or the HK 417. The HK G11 had alot of promise.
For a designated marksman rifle I like the Arctic Warfare Magnum in .338 lapua.

[Echo5Hotel]

FN FAL

[Arnie100]

A Galil SAR or an FN.FNC.

[Peacebringer]

M-41A Pulse Rifle

[say652]

Saiga 12. Folding stock, Bayonet, 30 round mag.