Realm of Chaos in Phase World

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:35 pm

Good question.

This spell do needs clarification.

First, it is not clear (but hinted) that the
enemies "created" by the spell do or
do not kill? (Probably they are able, and
will try)
No indication of the foe's strenght. For
example if a group of CS soldiers are
preparing for a battle against GB's
and suprised by this spell... It easily
means that they are facing a squad
of GB's => mincemeat.

Second, it is not clarified, how it affects
people. I mean people in heavy PA, robot
vehicles, enviromentally sealed vehicles,
etc. are generally cannot be targeted by
spells...

Or if they are targeted, how much of their
equipment and vehicles are dragged along?

So, you just opened a big can of worms -
a worthy topic.
--------------------------
For my part, I would say, that people inside
heavy PA and bigger are unaffected.

Adios
KLM

Nekira Sudacne · Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:09 pm

it'd suck them right out of hteir ships.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:17 pm

Since one of my players is a techno-wizard, this question just came up. He wants to make a medium missile with this spell as its warhead. Considering the area of effect, I decided to allow it, with the caveat that unless a big ship is hit with multiple missiles, only the section actually hit would be affected. If it is a section that is hit, that section goes into limbo, essentially disappearing. There are no hull breaches and the ship as a whole still maintains integrity, as the hull section is there, but it isn't. Things just become a lot cleaner if the whole ship is hit with the missiles, at least that way, the entire ship disappears.
As for the crew, I ruled that each individual crew member appears in a facsimile of either the entire ship, or the section they are trapped in, depending on how much of the ship is affected by the missiles. That individual crew member then faces their worst fear, as the spell states. They are just trapped in running around either their section or the entire ship. So for a ship with 20 crew members, 20 phantom ships would be created and each person would fight on their own. Instead of fighting each battle out, I decided to do a straight percentile roll to determine the percentage of the crew that survives. I'm considering putting a bonus percentage in based on how much actual PPE is spent creating the device that is not reduced by adding more crystals, up to +50%.

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:08 am

Still, it is a nasty spell. Cast on a unit, and one third of them
end up dead, another third is crippled (and the remaining saved

).

Not sure, that a 9th level spell is supposed to be that powerfull.

Adios
KLM

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:41 am

The area of effect only lists who is affected (in the target area) If they leave the target area they are still affected by the spell for the duration. There fore you could have delusional people running amok all over a starship. A rather useful weapon for pirates who wish to leave the section of ship they are boarding undefended.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:17 pm

Greyaxe wrote:The area of effect only lists who is affected (in the target area) If they leave the target area they are still affected by the spell for the duration. There fore you could have delusional people running amok all over a starship. A rather useful weapon for pirates who wish to leave the section of ship they are boarding undefended.

Yeah, my friend and I went over that possibility. That's why we decided to just go with the section, or whole ship, just disappears. It's there, but it isn't. Unless you were caught in the spell, you can't get into or out of that area. Otherwise you would be inviting abuses like using it on small ships, boarding it, and either putting people in position for when the crew comes out of the phantom zone, or just evacuating the atmosphere from the ship so that anyone coming back with an EVA suit on dies. As it is, with the way I'm doing it, you still open up the possibility of a crew member finding themselves facing their worst enemy and running away until they can lock themselves behind a bulkhead door. So you get the funny situation of the spell ending, and finding half the folks in a section either dead, or locked on the wrong side of a bulkhead door during a battle. They may not be dead, but they're definately in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:02 pm

Cause there is a difference between munchkin and ....DAM CLEVER MAN! I gotta use that.

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:20 pm

I compared the Realm of Chaos spell to the
Temporary Time Hole, and for my part, I
am sure, that I will not allow this spell.

At least not in its current form.

You know, TTP effectively knocks out the
mage using it, costs more, has a smaller
area of effect, and the suprised enemy
must be killed by the mage's companion.
Oh, and RoC has a lower PPE need.

There is the issue of that the RoC has a
saving throw - but this sometimes can be
used as an advantage (splitting the enemy
forces).

Oh, and RoC is 9th level and TTP is considered
a 10th lvl spell (some Mystics DO appreciate the
difference).

Adios
KLM

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:47 am

gadrin wrote: [
Since they had no background I simply tossed an opponent who was equivalent to each player, so not much happened.

An opponent for each player, who is equivalent to him/her,
and... "not much happened"? I mean fighting some equivalent
means a 50% mortality rate, and the survivors are likely
to be in ragged armor, and depleted of ammo/PPE/ISP...

Or...?

-----
Again, spells aren't supposed to work against people in
giant robots or vehicles.

Adios
KLM

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:35 am

I have to chip in late on this topic, and I agree. It is a brilliant use of a spell! Great job Gadrin!

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:48 pm

TW missile with that one it would be very wicked!

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:21 am

And you always fire off a volley of them.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:10 am

Aramanthus wrote:TW missile with that one it would be very wicked!

Mentioned that, way up above. My group TWizard also put Energy Field on it and a bunch of decoys to keep it from being shot down on its way in.

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:17 am

Actually, it makes sense.

I mean when attacking with missiles, there are
(more or less) two ways:

1, Overwhelm the target's defense with a large number
of missiles

2, Launch a single or just a few missiles, but make sure
they hit, and do damage.

The 1st option is based on the principle, that the missiles
are not fooled by ECM/chaff/flare/decoys/etc. - fortunately
Palladium do not bothers too much with EW, so we only
have to deal with active countermeasures - and that means
point-defense guns.

Also, the 1st option seems to be the cheaper version... But...
Current military doctrine seems to prefer the second version,
meaning, that a craft (be it a ship or aircraft) can destroy
more targets from one ammo load.
And THAT is cheaper.

So, why not make those missiles
- stealthy
- dodging
- shielded and armored
- etc.

Adios
KLM

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:04 am

It totally makes sense Devillin! Decoys are always a good idea in most circumstances.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:31 am

KLM wrote:Also, the 1st option seems to be the cheaper version... But...
Current military doctrine seems to prefer the second version,
meaning, that a craft (be it a ship or aircraft) can destroy
more targets from one ammo load.
And THAT is cheaper.

So, why not make those missiles
- stealthy
- dodging
- shielded and armored
- etc.

Yup. That's why he went with an integrated volley of 1 Medium RoC and 5 regular MRM. all protected by Energy Field. We went with protecting the entire volley so that no one missile looks more special than the rest. Makes the volley more expensive, but when put against the benefit of possibly making half the crew of an opposing ship disappear, more than worthwhile. Especially if you do a boarding action after it gets back. :eek:

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:27 pm

Nice tactic! I hope you don't mind if I borrow it for my game?

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:54 pm

I'm sure they understand the concept of a MIRVed warhead!

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:26 am

I like MIRVed stuff. Those are very cool to use on some poor unsuspecting people.

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:12 am

"Quantity is a quality by itself - Josiph Stalin"

That said however, somewhere in the early 1980's the "west"
reached a critical level in technology, where quality proved
to be superior over quantity. You know, a single F-16 for
example with four laser/GPs guided bombs could destroy like
3 bridges, coomand centers, etc.

In WWII this level of destruction neccessitated about 100
sorties, each with twin or four engine bombers, plus fighter
escort, etc.

For example about 40 F-22s stationed in Japan, plus a
carrier, with an airwing of like 40 F-18E "Super Bugs"
can theoretically destroy about 800, "previous generation"
aircraft. And that will be a crippling blow to China.

-----
Yet, "canon" material suggest, that in the 3 Galaxies (and
on Rifts Earth too) the only way to overload defenses is to
launch a missile sswarm from point blank range.

Yet, we see designs, like the Silverhawk, which is supposed
to be able to sneak up on a starship, penetrate her shields
and even the hull, and wreak havoc in the inside.

And that two does not make sense...

Adios
KLM

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:26 pm

Now about that silver hawk. Maybe it should have included some serious stealth and maybe even the ability to deploy decoys.

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:04 am

The Silverhawk IS equipped a cloaking system, kinda
similar to the Predator's - ie. works best, when moving straight
or standing still.

Just wondering, that taking a Silverhawk's
- cloak
- force-field "penetrator device"
- CG pack

Add it to the "brain" of a not-so-bright robot (Skelebots
are a good example) and then you have like 150 kg
worth of payload - of K-Hex, for example.

Your basic deep space torpedo...

Adios
KLM

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:51 am

That is called a real smart bomb.

Besides, it is not just the smart and cloaked
missile, with several hundred MDC that counts, but
its payload is about 3d6*1000 MD... Something that
takes out a frigate on one hit - for a price tag of like
3 millions.

And even a frigate can carry a hundred of them easily.

Adios
KLM

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:46 am

Problem is, that from 30 million, one can make about 4
of these babies in the garage...

...and then there will be left a few parts, like 4 tri-canons,
4 "lobotomised" skelebots... Maybe even a life support
and some small stuff.

Adios
KLM

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:59 pm

I've heard that might be a way of beating an enemy who has the advantage with quality. Just overwhelm him with numbers. That is another good idea KLM!!! Good one!

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:40 am

And the soviets tried it too...

...and it led to systems like the AH-64 and the F-15.

And even the People's Republic of China is phasing out
its MiG-19 and MiG-21 "knock-offs" in favor of the more
advanced Su-27s (actually not just the plain ol' Flanker,
but several advanced versions, but I guess even the Russians
are sometimes confused by the Sukhoi's designation system.)
---------------------------------------------------------

Back to the 3 Galaxies: It looks like that the writers
came up with the idea of warships plinking lasers at each other
from less than 200 kilometers, and then lumber into point blank
range, where they unleash a Trafalgar-style broadside of
cruise missiles...

Our approach was, that given their stats, capital ships
probably launch fighter and cruise missile swarms from
a thousand kilometers, hoping to overload the targets'
defense.

And then, we have those sneaky Silverhawks...
...and then comes he idea of the stealthy and armored
heavy missile (call it torpedo).

Adios
KLM

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:08 am

And I'll keep using "Kitsune's" Space combat rules for my game. His adjusted ranges are far better for the overall game as far as I am concerned. And they make it a lot better overall. The fact that the ranges are so small is ridicules. But in my game it runs smoother with those other rules.

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:05 pm

Darkmax wrote:yes I know what you mean about those Russian designations.... but still it would not explain why NATO called the sabre-equivalent "Fishbed"...... were they drunk?.....

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/index.html

Nope, the MiG-15, which gained fame over Korea, against the
F-86 Sabre has the NATO code of Fagot.

Basically the NATO coded every fighter (including fighterbombers
or even the ground attack Su-25) with an F-lettered codename,
probably in random.

But what I meant, that based on the Su-27 Flanker the Sukhoi
bureau developed a whole family of (mostly prototypes), with
seemingly incomprehesible markings. (See link above)

I think the Chinese might have acquired the MiG-31 Foxfire, but that is my guess.

They might did back in 1992, back I had no news about them
in the last 10 years, so probably China abandoned the project
in favor of the Flankers.

Some of the Flanker variants are multirole or attack craft,
while the base variant is a powerfull air superiority fighter.

The Foxhound on the other hand was not really developed
since its introduction.

Adios
KLM

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:29 pm

This is off subject. According to Global security the Chinese are fielding a new generation fighter. I'd have to look at it's designation. But it looks compariable to the Eurofighter. It's probably behind the Eurofighter in tech level.

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:03 am

Aramanthus wrote:This is off subject. According to Global security the Chinese are fielding a new generation fighter. I'd have to look at it's designation. But it looks compariable to the Eurofighter. It's probably behind the Eurofighter in tech level.

They are knocking off the Su-27 (+) "Flanker" family...

However, the Russians do not share each piece of their know-how,
since the People's Republic of China is infamous for violating license
agreements.

So, the electronics and the engines still need (at least parts) to
be manufactured in the Russian Federation.
------------

As for tech levels: the ex-soviet fighters are rather good dogfighters,
but they do lack in terms of sensors and ergonomy. Yet, with a
competent controller (read: AEWACS) they can beat more advanced
designs (as it was shown in a recent aircraft manuovre in Hungary
the AEWACS guided MiG-29s soundly beat the JAS-39 "Agressors").

Now, both Russian and Chinese radar tech is behind the NATO/US
level.

Adios
KLM

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:50 am

It is true for like a decade or two.

After that, ask me again

Adios
KLM

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:39 am

...or the US collapses, or the People's Republic of China
converts to democracy, or the chinese birth control
cripples their social budget... (Who pays the pensions)

And so on.

Adios
KLM

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:07 pm

Let's hope things will calm down again.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:08 pm

Personally I prefer a Red Dwarf!

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:19 pm

Aramanthus wrote:And I'll keep using "Kitsune's" Space combat rules for my game. His adjusted ranges are far better for the overall game as far as I am concerned. And they make it a lot better overall. The fact that the ranges are so small is ridicules. But in my game it runs smoother with those other rules.

Yup. I use a variation of Kitsune's Space Combat rules. My group loves them. Cool thing about those rules, either version, is that it does leave a viable opening for pirates now. Ships can't just zip away when a pirate ship comes from around an asteroid. Even cooler is that it also puts in an opening for a knockoff technology of the CG-Drives that should be recognizable to any reader of Star Wars novels: The Interdictor Field. We postulated that a heavily modified CG-Drive could put out a gravity field that would prevent a ship from going FTL.

I had forgotton about it until my GM hit our group with it last session and we lost 3 freighters we were supposed to be escorting. Now we're fighting to get those ships back.

[/url]

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:27 am

devillin wrote: Even cooler is that it also puts in an opening for a knockoff technology of the CG-Drives that should be recognizable to any reader of Star Wars novels: The Interdictor Field. We postulated that a heavily modified CG-Drive could put out a gravity field that would prevent
ship from going FTL.

Yeah, the term "interdictor" is used at least in two MMORPGs too...
(was fun flying one... those things are missile-magnets

)

Adios
KLM

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:18 pm

Probably 'dictors are designed around such a device.

Adios
KLM

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:41 pm

Hmmm. They both are working towards the same goal. Although they came about it by two convergent methdos.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:13 pm

That is very true!

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:40 pm

I think that no matter how civilized places get, there will always be places where chaos rules. And that is no matter what sort of law enforcement try to control it.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:12 am

Darkmax wrote:why not just use a gravity wave projector?.....

Since it is stated that most ships have two drives (not wanting to get stranded in interstellar space and all that), we figured that pirates, and warship captains trying to catch pirates, would configure their spare drive to put out a gravity field. If they time the usage of the field right, and the target fails their sensor rolls, it would be possible to at the least stop a ship from going FTL, and at worst cause the FTL drive of the target to massively malfunction. It does have the drawback that if the interdictor tries to chase someone they missed, and their main drive fails, they have to sit there until the reconfigured drive can be switched back to normal mode. Not a position you want to be in if you are an interdictor chasing a pirate, and the pirate has friends that also have drives set to broadcast gravity waves.

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:21 am

And I was thinking about a device which does not generate
a field (like something creating a gravity well of a large
object), but more like sending out wawes of gravity.

And yeah, more like a beam or a cone, than a bubble.

Adios
KLM