Interstellar legal issues

[KLM]

Hi there!

Some questions have risen, such as:

1- The NE is said to first use every legal means to collect their
debts - are there such legal opportunities as on our, real-life
planet where a company can sue a goverment?

2- What does it take for a bunch of sentients to be recognised
as a legal goverment by the CCW or the UWW? (Of course
the TGE more or less relies on "might makes right" ).

3- Are there something like the United Nations? It looks like
Phase world have Assistance Agreements with major
power blocks - ie. their fleets will rush in to protect Phase
World if needed. Even something, as the council of species
in the B5 series?

4- How "foreign" goverments' armed ships are treated?
For example the NE is permitted to sell stuff for a CCW
planet's IDF - and they haul those guns to the place, but
they are insisting to defend their own convoy...

And so on...

Waiting for both solutions and further questions.

Adios
KLM

[Greyaxe]

Hi there!

Some questions have risen, such as:

1- The NE is said to first use every legal means to collect their
debts - are there such legal opportunities as on our, real-life
planet where a company can sue a goverment?
KLM

Companies generally can not sue governments; however governments can be made responsible for payments. As such you could have the Canadian government placing assurances on loans sighting they will guarantee the payments. This does bring up some questions

1. Does Naruni deal with local currency instead of Galactic credit. If yes then a government could just print more money and suffer the exchange differences of flooding the market with their currency (better than loosing your planet to Naruni)
2. Can Naruni assign a value to a planet in exchange for their product and what reasonable government would use their planet as collateral.
3. Is number two even legal, can a government surrender an entire planet to a foreign body, effectively stealing any privately owned land the population at large has and creating Surfs.

2- What does it take for a bunch of sentients to be recognised
as a legal goverment by the CCW or the UWW? (Of course
the TGE more or less relies on "might makes right" ).

Depends on the circumstances:
A local body of natives to a planet who claim to be in control of an area or planet. Not too much of an argument there they would simply be recognized/

What about colonies: Suppose you break away form your existing government to find a planet of your own. You find one and form a colony. Your leader of the colony requests recognition by the CCW. What is the criteria: I expect there is a fee which is a % of yur GDP is taken for military protection and development, maintenance of space lanes but what would the % be and is there a minimum dollar required?

3- Are there something like the United Nations? It looks like
Phase world have Assistance Agreements with major
power blocks - ie. their fleets will rush in to protect Phase
World if needed. Even something, as the council of species
in the B5 series?

In the case of Phase World the power blocks have treaties of neutrality, and will rush in only to prevent the control of center from falling into less agreeable hands. (IE the CCW gains control and forbids TGE from using it) Which brings up another question: Where is Center located on the map? Is it in CCW space TGE space Neutral space and if so is there a clear path to get to it without having to travel through one of the major power blocks to get to it. Suppose you have to travel through TGE space, you get stopped, you show papers you are going to center (if you are fortunate enough to have papers) do they let you through or does the treaty extend beyond the borders of center. If not you better hope you are a citizen of the major bower block, (just curious how many citizenships can a person have)

4- How "foreign" goverments' armed ships are treated?
For example the NE is permitted to sell stuff for a CCW
planet's IDF - and they haul those guns to the place, but
they are insisting to defend their own convoy...

And so on...

Waiting for both solutions and further questions.

Adios
KLM

Would depend on the existing treaties and citizenship. Suppose you are a citizen of the CCW and you were born in the UWW, is this even possible? As a spacer can you have more than one citizenship, and does the captain’s citizenship have any bearing on the ship registration?

Military vessels could only travel in their own space unless responding to an emergency. There would be space lanes created for loosly controlled planets like the UWW.

[Aramanthus]

Hmmm These are some very interesting ideas you are all proposing. I need to continue to follow these!

[Aramanthus]

If they did cooperate it would be with the understanding that they back stab the Kittani at the first opportunity.

[KLM]

OK, let us suppose, that we have a space station,
maybe not an Asteroid Eater, but something similar.

In the case of the UWW they are accepted as member
worlds, and if big enough, they can have their own
representative.

Smaller ones have to gang up, to have their own
senator (or whatever).

But pressing the issue, what is this station (or better,
a bunch of self-sustaining starship, not unlike a nomadic
tribe - ie. they live from the land, but not really settled,
and if they are not overpopulated - space is big, so
they aren't - they do not even have a claimed area...
If you are familiar with SW, the Roche asteroid field
and the insectoid Verpines )

So... we have these people. They do not want to be
part of the UWW nor the CCW, and are a convenient
distance away from TGE territory.

However, they would like to have some formal relations
with the UWW and the CCW, conduct some trade, etc.

How big they have to be to be recognised by those powers
as a legal goverment?

What if they are a hivemind species, like Bugs by Heinlein?
(Technically only the queen/brainbug is sentient by itself,
and there are only one of them or maybe as few as a dosen).
Or what if they do not have a CPU like representative?
(Like the Borg in TNG before the queen was "invented"?)

Adios
KLM

[Greyaxe]

I would guess in your first example the space station or starship colonies would apply for independent status and depending on the outcome of that status request would be granted a territory as their own. They would also have to be licensed to travel in or through UWW/CCW space until they reached an established trade corridor or space lane to safely travel through. I expect there would be some licensing fees or tariffs as well as formal relations documentation/treaties with the larger power blocks.

A wandering Hive intelligence, just dont know. Depends on the behavior of the hive, could be left as an animal to do what it needs to survive or perhaps as above and granted a territory in the power blocks space.

[KLM]

Let's play it by Rodenberry's dream, and it is safe to assume,
that when the CCW recognises an independent, they can
trade (for whatever they can trade with, probably the CCW
have a list similar to the COCOM), and might even put
up a show if the TGE invades them (thought if not in a
particularly good "mood" they wont send even a lone
frigate to help. Or if they have the eqivalent of large
crude oil reserves )

On the other hand, the TGE will not invade them, "just
for being there", more likely they will try to parade as the
"wiser and gentler" kreeghor - ie. effectively playing bully,
with most participants knowing, that they cannot cost effectively
conquer and keep this remote settlement. However, everyone
keep in mind, that it takes them just a bad morning to
send in a fleet, which cuts the small boys to size, just
for creating an example.
Also, having a WILLING partner on the far side of the
galaxy, preferably close to the CCW, means that they
can play the game once Kruschev and Kennedy played
in Cuba.

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

I'll aviod Rodenbury in the game I run. Sorry, but I'm not going to rehash my dislike for a certain show.

[KLM]

Nah, I do not want aliens with pointy ears (well, star elven
maybe ), nor with forehead ridges.

What I mean with the "Rodenberry Dream" metaphor,
is that the CCW is more or less idealistic. At least
it tries to adhere to morals more than any other
major "player".

Not that they are perfect... Just try to be.

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

Ok KLM, I agree with that! I see where you were coming from! Thank you for explaining it!

[Rallan]

Hi there!

Some questions have risen, such as:

1- The NE is said to first use every legal means to collect their
debts - are there such legal opportunities as on our, real-life
planet where a company can sue a goverment?

In the real world, governments have the annoying ability to just pass new laws and make themselves exempt from pretty much anything. A lot of third world governments and tinpot dictatorships have been tempted over the years to just say "screw you all, we're suspending all our debt repayments".

However, in the real world there's no equivalent of Naruni, a company which is effectively a government in its own right and which fields one of the largest and best-equipped spacefleets in the Three Galaxies. It's also one of the most wealthy and far-reaching companies in the known megaverse, so the consequences of stiffing Naruni probably aren't something any government, even the big boys like the CCW and TGE, would want to face.

3- Are there something like the United Nations? It looks like
Phase world have Assistance Agreements with major
power blocks - ie. their fleets will rush in to protect Phase
World if needed. Even something, as the council of species
in the B5 series?

It's highly unlikely that there'll be a United Nations equivalent in the Phase World universe, because virtually all of the Three Galaxies is under the control of a very small handful of humungous civilizations. Virtually nobody except the really huge players even matters, and I doubt that the TGE, UWW, and CCW really need an independent body just to conduct diplomatic talks with each other.

4- How "foreign" goverments' armed ships are treated?
For example the NE is permitted to sell stuff for a CCW
planet's IDF - and they haul those guns to the place, but
they are insisting to defend their own convoy...

They probably look at it from the perspective that interstellar space is like the sea, and planets are like ports of call. Out there on the seas there's pirates and brigands and sea monsters and enemy fleets, so it would be ridiculously impractical to expect ships to travel around unarmed. Merchant shipping and private vessels can be armed to deter piracy if they feel like it, and there'd be absolutely nothing wrong with ambassadors and other VIPs travelling around in warships with frigate escorts.

The thorny bit would just be when it comes to how many warships are floating around, and whether they asked politely first. A bit of firepower to protect the ambassador on her way to your capital is one thing. An armada popping out of hyperspace without a very good excuse is going to be seen as an act of war.

[Braden Campbell]

1- The NE is said to first use every legal means to collect their
debts - are there such legal opportunities as on our, real-life
planet where a company can sue a goverment?

Sure. It's called Breech of Contract. If the Canadian government agrees to purchase 12 heavy-lift air craft from Bombardier, then "forgets" or refuses to pay them for those 12 planes, they can take the government to court demanding reparations (assuming the courts and the government are separate entities, as we have here on Earth).

2- What does it take for a bunch of sentients to be recognised as a legal goverment by the CCW or the UWW? (Of course
the TGE more or less relies on "might makes right" ).

By the letter of Consortium law, the only governments the CCW should be dealing with in any way, shape, or form, are those who are Consortium members. In order to be a member, your planet has to be governed by a single, global body. Everybody else is supposed to be hands off (so our real-life Earth would NOT have any kind of contact with the CCW).

The TGE doesn't care at all, and the United Worlds are really only looking for people who practice magic.

3- Are there something like the United Nations? ...

No, nothing even remotely like it. the only time the TGE and the CCW get together to discuss anything is within the bounds of some kind of "lets not go to war today" treaty, or arms limitation talks. other than that, no one talks to anyone in the 3 G's, which is why it so screwed up.

4- How "foreign" goverments' armed ships are treated?
For example the NE is permitted to sell stuff for a CCW
planet's IDF - and they haul those guns to the place, but
they are insisting to defend their own convoy...

Naruni no doubt has manufacturing planets within claimed Consortium space. So they build the guns, load them into their transports, and take them to Planet X's IDF, just as Coca-Cola would load up a truck full of pop cans in Atlanta and drive it on up to New York City. Nothing illegal there.

But space is very hostile, and there are pirates everywhere, so it's just a given that your ship is armed, if for no other reason than for self defense. they have every right to defend their goods right up until the moment that they are put into the customer's hands.

Example: my friends and I try to truck-jack that load of Coca-Cola at gun point. The driver, fearing for his life and job, grabs a shot gun from the cab and wastes us. Self defense.

After a particularly brutal engagement the CAF might send a few ships to investigate, but only because no one wants to have well organised bands of pirates in their backyard. Naruni will only cross the line if they start violently attacking CCW member worlds, at which time the CAF will shut them down faster than Enron.

[Aramanthus]

In some ways it is and in some ways it is very different.

[KLM]

Especially, if there is such a general disagreement
in the security council like IRL Russia(n Fed.),
(People's Republic of) China and the USA... Odds
are, that on important thing at least of them will
veto.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

We are once again pulling away from one-world governmental body.... sigh....

When did we headed for that? At least in
the case of the UN, never.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

there were plenty of talk in the late 70s and early 80s, then everything stagnated in the 90s... now we are all falling apart.

While everything stagnated, the USA begun to used the NWO
doctrine (and as a side note, the European Union and the NATO
was widened by a bunch of former Warsaw Pack countries)...

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

New World Order.

Wikipedia it.

Adios
KLM

[Rallan]

but ain't the CCW like the UN?

Nah not really. The United Nations is basically just a body for arbitrating international disputes so that peaceful solutions can be found before they flare up into fully fledged wars between sovereign nations, and (more recently) for coordinating international responses to humanitarian crises. The only real requirement for UN membership is to be an internationally recognised human government, and the UN doesn't have its own army, or any authority to intervene in your domestic affairs, or any authority to make you adopt international conventions or pay money to keep the UN running.

The CCW is more like what the European Union is gradually turning into, or what the United States was for the first few decades after independence. Member states (in this case entire planets or collectives of planets) are still fairly close to being nations in their own right, complete with their own governments, armed forces, and legal systems. However, the CCW exists as a higher level of government over these sovereign states, and they have to comply with CCW legal, humanitarian, and treaty obligations if they want to become or remain members. The CCW is also able to tax member states and have its own military for the defense of the CCW as a whole (and in times of emergency the armed forces of member states are expected to obey the authority of the CCW's own fleet), and its empowered to intervene directly when member states contravene the laws or constitution of the CCW as a whole.

[KLM]

CCW does not interfere with local planetary or governmental jurisdiction

But the TVIA does, and the Cosmo Knights are allowed to do that.

Adios
KLM

[Rallan]

CCW does not interfere with local planetary or governmental jurisdiction

Sort of. To be a CCW member you've gotta bring your local planetary or governmental jurisdiction into line with CCW requirements, which basically means you'll be required to enforce a lot of laws that the CCW tells you to and required to scrap a lot of laws that are unacceptable to the CCW. Sort of like how the US federal government only has limited powers to interfere with state and local governmental jurisdiction, but state governments can't tell FBI agents that they're not allowed in or ignore relevant federal laws and constitutional clauses, and they have to comply with various federal guidelines to be eligable for certain kinds of federal funding.

There are notable exceptions in the game though. The T'zee were accepted into the CCW despite being rather shaky when it comes to complying with TVIA regulations. Which comes with a convenient real life example of its own, since it looks like Turkey's eventually going to be admitted into the European Union despite being rather shaky on human rights

[KLM]

FYI as the situation is currently standing,
the T'Zee are still probatory members.

And, yeah, the CCW works very similarly
as the EU could work someday... I mean at the
moment the EU is still busy integrating the
newcomers - a bigger feat, that the CCW integrating
the UWW... Now, once the EU manages to become
a more-or-less unified block, with it own, central
armed force, which is clearly and vastly superior
than any of the individual member's armed forces
(more likely, the CAF is more powerfull, than the
two most powerfull IDF's combined - the Human Alliance
and the Wolfen Republic, I guess...)

Plus there is the fact, that the Cosmo Knights are allowed
(almost required) to operate paralell to the TVIA, and since

a, Cosmo Knights, unlike our RL politicians do act,
and act based on priciples and more or less noble
ideas

b, cooperation with CKs does look back for a few decades
if not centuries

I guess the CCW deals with problems more effectively
than any RL multinational organisation (even with the
undeniable communications lag, we do not have on a
single planet).

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

yeah, but unlike UN, the EU does impose economic and certain legal policies unto its members.

Just like the CCW, ain't it?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However... I thought of an UN like organisation, especially
consisting the TGE, CCW and the UWW for issues, like
a fourth power finds a pre-FTL civilisation and enslaves it
or just commits genocide via orbital bombardment.

Of course, it assumes that the TGE do not just
conquer (either by force or by threats) every world
they can...
...or at least that they do not like, that someone else
conquering worlds out of their reach.

Adios
KLM

[Rallan]

hmm... i thought the CCW does not do that?.....

You may wanna read your Phase World books again. The CCW doesn't just invite in anyone who's willing to pledge to mutual defense and then let 'em do their own thing. It's a government in its own right, it requires member states to abide by certain regulations regarding both the sovereingty of other CCW states and the human(oid) rights of its own citizens. It's got the legal authority to intervene when member states don't abide by these rules (that's what the TVIA is for), and it presumably has a set of appeals courts which exist above the highest courts of individual states. It's NATO and the EU rolled into one, and with more authority over its members than either because it's long since evolved to be a sovereign government in its own right rather than just a body set up by states to facilitate helping each other out.

[Rallan]

There are notable exceptions in the game though. The T'zee were accepted into the CCW despite being rather shaky when it comes to complying with TVIA regulations.

well, the Faustians are on "double secret probation" according to Dimension Book 5, which overall seems rather dumb, that one Faustian can screw up the entire race's chances of remaining with the CCW.

I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, it's just that the books are kinda naive in places. Sometimes they seem like they're written for 10 year-olds or by 10-year olds.

Rifts isn't written for grownups? OH MY GOD!

[KLM]

Unfortunately for the Golgan Republik, it is not the case
for them.

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

That seems to be the concensus on the Golgon Republik.

[Aramanthus]

I don't think that would work. They are not slugs.

[KLM]

throw them a whole shipload of salt... it'll end their pain.

Somehow I perceive the Golgan Republik as Russia in the
mid 1990's... A state fallen from superpower status, steadily
disintegrating.

But as Chechnia proved, a wounded old bear can still bite.

So, if someone would do the favor to the Republik, to invade
them, it would resurrect the Golgan spirit. Nothing awakens
such a decaying nation, than an outside threat.

Adios
KLM

[Greyaxe]

You are wise, that is why most outside nations are quietly watching the republic disintigrate and asimilating the breakaway planets. Why invade if you dont have to.

[Aramanthus]

I again agree that their neighbors are watching. They would be unwilling to interfere lest they get themselves into a bind they would perfer to avoid.

[Aramanthus]

ONly if he and his family like both shellfish and fowl.

[KLM]

I guess Churchill said something like "Big nations act like
gangsters, small nations like whores"...

Also, Niccolo Machiavelli (in "The Prince") said something
along that lines.

----------
Well, the CCW acts like a militia (which sometimes
turns into lynch mob).

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

I usually run the CCW with a more organized military. I don't run them helter skelter.

[KLM]

I usually run the CCW with a more organized military. I don't run them helter skelter.

Neither do I.

Their decision making system however is less efficient
(while execution is better than anything Earth can offer).

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

That might be how the Government would work, but their military moves more efficently in my game.

[Aramanthus]

Actually he was the one running the show completely. The military runs itself in my game.

[KLM]

like when Palpatine took over?....

Such a move in not likely in the Three Galaxies, as long as there
are potent outside threats, like the TGE.

But yeah, the CCW might face a similar future.

Adios
KLM

[Rallan]

like when Palpatine took over?....

Such a move in not likely in the Three Galaxies, as long as there
are potent outside threats, like the TGE.

But yeah, the CCW might face a similar future.

Adios
KLM

Doubtful. Those potent outside threats you've mentioned have kept the CCW on its toes and given it purpose and direction for centuries. Despite the menace of the TGE and just about everything else the megaverse can throw at it, the CCW is showing no signs of losing momentum, it's still one of the two most powerful governments in the Three Galaxies, and it's still a free and open society rather than an authoritarian military dictatorship. Obviously whatever government they've got is rugged, efficient, and able to act decisively when the poop hits the fan. If it wasn't, the CCW would've either broken up or been taken over by a wannabe Palpatine generations ago.

[Aramanthus]

I also don't think the CCW will become oppressive as the TGE.

[KLM]

Definitely not on the short run.

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

I'm not going to run it like that.