Oh my god, they killed the Cap!

[Marrowlight]

Just don't forget Cap was born July 4, 1917. And that is his offcial date of birth.

Born on the Fourth of July? Really? How original...

It was. In the 40's...when he was created.

Not really. And what are the odds the one successful super soldier they produced just happened to be born on Independence Day?

About the same odds as Vicksburg surrendering on the Fourth of July.

Or even better, about the same odds as Jefferson and Adams both dying not only on the same day, not only that day being the Fourth of July, but it also being the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Just don't forget Cap was born July 4, 1917. And that is his offcial date of birth.

Born on the Fourth of July? Really? How original...

It was. In the 40's...when he was created.

Not really.

Uh...ok. How many other American comic heroes were born on the 4th of July before him?

No need to all gang up on me.
It just sounds like they made him out to be Yankee Doodle and it is a bad cliche if you ask me.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Just don't forget Cap was born July 4, 1917. And that is his offcial date of birth.

Born on the Fourth of July? Really? How original...

It was. In the 40's...when he was created.

Not really. And what are the odds the one successful super soldier they produced just happened to be born on Independence Day?

About the same odds as Vicksburg surrendering on the Fourth of July.

Or even better, about the same odds as Jefferson and Adams both dying not only on the same day, not only that day being the Fourth of July, but it also being the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

Now you are getting into metaphysical anomalies though. Are you classifying Captain America as a metaphysical anomaly, then?
I happen to have been born exactly 50 years after JFK(he was born May 29, 1917 and I was born in 1967) and my older brother on the second anniversary of his assassination, so I am aware of the anomalous nature surrounding the Presidents of this country. I suppose if you cast it in that light, it would make sense.

[Stone Gargoyle]

We're already dealing with people who can fly without an airplane, juggle armored cars, run faster than the speed of sound, and deliver lethal energy blasts from their bare hands. To get hung up on "the odds" is like not being able to enter the forest because you keep bumping into all those darn trees.

You're making sense again, Servo. Stop it.

[Daniel Stoker]

No need to all gang up on me.
It just sounds like they made him out to be Yankee Doodle and it is a bad cliche if you ask me.

Sure it's a cliche, but at the time it was pretty original for a character. Now it's not only a cliche, but an unoriginal one.


Daniel Stoker

[BookWyrm]

Now Marvel is posting a "who will be the next Cap?" HERE. Go check it out.

[Percy Ferkelberger]

Here is an important link here.

Hehehe Wakadin Vibranium...

[Uncle Servo]

No need to all gang up on me.
It just sounds like they made him out to be Yankee Doodle and it is a bad cliche if you ask me.

Sure it's a cliche, but at the time it was pretty original for a character. Now it's not only a cliche, but an unoriginal one.

Alright smart guy, can you share with the class an example of an original cliche????

[Marrowlight]

No need to all gang up on me.
It just sounds like they made him out to be Yankee Doodle and it is a bad cliche if you ask me.

Sure it's a cliche, but at the time it was pretty original for a character. Now it's not only a cliche, but an unoriginal one.

Alright smart guy, can you share with the class an example of an original cliche????

Isn't that like an instant classic?

[Daniel Stoker]

Alright smart guy, can you share with the class an example of an original cliche????

Nah, but the level of unoriginality can and does increase over time.


Daniel Stoker

[Stone Gargoyle]

No need to all gang up on me.
It just sounds like they made him out to be Yankee Doodle and it is a bad cliche if you ask me.

Sure it's a cliche, but at the time it was pretty original for a character. Now it's not only a cliche, but an unoriginal one.


Daniel Stoker

Overly overdone, I'd say.

[dragon_blaze_99]

ok this post stated about a month ago so tghe only real question is.... is cap back yet

[BookWyrm]

He'll be back when the fan demand is great enough or the current sales of his comic drop off significantly.

[Marrowlight]

He'll be back when the fan demand is great enough or the current sales of his comic drop off significantly.

Actually, oddly enough, I don't think either of these two things will be what finally brings him back.

[MASTERMIND]

He'll be back when the fan demand is great enough or the current sales of his comic drop off significantly.

Actually, oddly enough, I don't think either of these two things will be what finally brings him back.

I am not a comic book insider at all but it seems to me it just takes a writer with a great pitch to bring back a character. I can only recall the popularity of a character being the cause of their return in a small handful of cases and I don't know if Cap has that kind of fan base.

[Stone Gargoyle]

He'll be back when the fan demand is great enough or the current sales of his comic drop off significantly.

Actually, oddly enough, I don't think either of these two things will be what finally brings him back.

I am not a comic book insider at all but it seems to me it just takes a writer with a great pitch to bring back a character. I can only recall the popularity of a character being the cause of their return in a small handful of cases and I don't know if Cap has that kind of fan base.

His fans fluctuate. His powers are not that impressive compared to the mega-men that populate comics today and there has not been a move to improve him as there has some of the older characters. It can be argued that by killing him they will be trying to revamp the character, but only time will tell. I think if they do, some of what makes him who he is will be lost, much as it has been when they have done such to a certain webhead.

[MASTERMIND]

He'll be back when the fan demand is great enough or the current sales of his comic drop off significantly.

Actually, oddly enough, I don't think either of these two things will be what finally brings him back.

I am not a comic book insider at all but it seems to me it just takes a writer with a great pitch to bring back a character. I can only recall the popularity of a character being the cause of their return in a small handful of cases and I don't know if Cap has that kind of fan base.

His fans fluctuate. His powers are not that impressive compared to the mega-men that populate comics today and there has not been a move to improve him as there has some of the older characters. It can be argued that by killing him they will be trying to revamp the character, but only time will tell. I think if they do, some of what makes him who he is will be lost, much as it has been when they have done such to a certain webhead.

As for that I hope they leave him alone. Updating characters is fine in most cases but something inside me cringes when I think about Captain America as a potential target for modernization. I always thought he stood out on his own as he was. Then again, I am in the character's fan base already so maybe I am biased.

[Marrowlight]

He'll be back when the fan demand is great enough or the current sales of his comic drop off significantly.

Actually, oddly enough, I don't think either of these two things will be what finally brings him back.

I am not a comic book insider at all but it seems to me it just takes a writer with a great pitch to bring back a character. I can only recall the popularity of a character being the cause of their return in a small handful of cases and I don't know if Cap has that kind of fan base.

His fans fluctuate. His powers are not that impressive compared to the mega-men that populate comics today and there has not been a move to improve him as there has some of the older characters. It can be argued that by killing him they will be trying to revamp the character, but only time will tell. I think if they do, some of what makes him who he is will be lost, much as it has been when they have done such to a certain webhead.

To be fair, his powers are not that impressive compared to the mega-men that populated comics of the 40s.

[MASTERMIND]

He'll be back when the fan demand is great enough or the current sales of his comic drop off significantly.

Actually, oddly enough, I don't think either of these two things will be what finally brings him back.

I am not a comic book insider at all but it seems to me it just takes a writer with a great pitch to bring back a character. I can only recall the popularity of a character being the cause of their return in a small handful of cases and I don't know if Cap has that kind of fan base.

His fans fluctuate. His powers are not that impressive compared to the mega-men that populate comics today and there has not been a move to improve him as there has some of the older characters. It can be argued that by killing him they will be trying to revamp the character, but only time will tell. I think if they do, some of what makes him who he is will be lost, much as it has been when they have done such to a certain webhead.

To be fair, his powers are not that impressive compared to the mega-men that populated comics of the 40s.

True.

[Stone Gargoyle]

He'll be back when the fan demand is great enough or the current sales of his comic drop off significantly.

Actually, oddly enough, I don't think either of these two things will be what finally brings him back.

I am not a comic book insider at all but it seems to me it just takes a writer with a great pitch to bring back a character. I can only recall the popularity of a character being the cause of their return in a small handful of cases and I don't know if Cap has that kind of fan base.

His fans fluctuate. His powers are not that impressive compared to the mega-men that populate comics today and there has not been a move to improve him as there has some of the older characters. It can be argued that by killing him they will be trying to revamp the character, but only time will tell. I think if they do, some of what makes him who he is will be lost, much as it has been when they have done such to a certain webhead.

To be fair, his powers are not that impressive compared to the mega-men that populated comics of the 40s.

Perhaps.

[Marrowlight]

He'll be back when the fan demand is great enough or the current sales of his comic drop off significantly.

Actually, oddly enough, I don't think either of these two things will be what finally brings him back.

I am not a comic book insider at all but it seems to me it just takes a writer with a great pitch to bring back a character. I can only recall the popularity of a character being the cause of their return in a small handful of cases and I don't know if Cap has that kind of fan base.

His fans fluctuate. His powers are not that impressive compared to the mega-men that populate comics today and there has not been a move to improve him as there has some of the older characters. It can be argued that by killing him they will be trying to revamp the character, but only time will tell. I think if they do, some of what makes him who he is will be lost, much as it has been when they have done such to a certain webhead.

To be fair, his powers are not that impressive compared to the mega-men that populated comics of the 40s.

Perhaps.

uh-huh.

[shiiv-a]

*hopes he STAYS dead this time .... *

[MASTERMIND]

*hopes he STAYS dead this time .... *

No way to know, hehe.

[Stone Gargoyle]

He'll be back when the fan demand is great enough or the current sales of his comic drop off significantly.

Actually, oddly enough, I don't think either of these two things will be what finally brings him back.

I am not a comic book insider at all but it seems to me it just takes a writer with a great pitch to bring back a character. I can only recall the popularity of a character being the cause of their return in a small handful of cases and I don't know if Cap has that kind of fan base.

His fans fluctuate. His powers are not that impressive compared to the mega-men that populate comics today and there has not been a move to improve him as there has some of the older characters. It can be argued that by killing him they will be trying to revamp the character, but only time will tell. I think if they do, some of what makes him who he is will be lost, much as it has been when they have done such to a certain webhead.

To be fair, his powers are not that impressive compared to the mega-men that populated comics of the 40s.

Perhaps.

uh-huh.

Sorry, I had to maintain my arguement somehow, even though I appear to have to retreat at this point.

[Sir_Spirit]

Not quite right, but horror comics certainly took the brunt of the damage. Comics were certainly a more mixed bag than they are today, but it was also a very different business model as a whole back then.

Right. Many were romance and westerns, as well as real crime fiction as opposed to the genre as it exists today. There are flavors of the old comics mixed in, but now it is all about the superpowers that be, to the powers that be.

Basically. Don't forget space adventures and dinosaurs.

From what Stan Lee said, a lot of comic companies just followed what ever was trendy or doing well. So if Westerns were popular then they'd put out westerns and if SciFi was doing well, then they'd put out SciFi.

[Sir_Spirit]

The issue is very disturbing, especially when you consider Bucky and Cap were the same age when Cap became a supersoldier and he kept his "friend" around, even to the point of endangering himself and Bucky. Apparently the super serum made cap appear older and much larger.

You are dead wrong, Cap was 18 when he transformed.

Barnes (named after James Buchanan, the 15th President of the United States, and the only president to be an acrobat, hence the homage) was an orphan, the son of a soldier killed in training at Camp Lehigh just before the United States' entry into World War II. As a result, he was unofficially adopted by the camp as a mascot. Nicknamed "Bucky," he took to wearing a uniform and becoming savvy with the ins and outs of military life, even though he was a teenager. It was at Lehigh that he met and befriended Private Steven Rogers, who by all appearances was the clumsiest soldier in the camp. This was at the same time that reports of the then-mysterious Captain America begin to appear in news magazines, and Barnes eagerly devoured the accounts of this new hero.

One night, however, while peeping on Rogers changing in his tent, he saw that his friend was changing into the uniform of Captain America. Barnes made a deal to keep the secret of Rogers' dual identity if he could become his sidekick. Rogers agreed and trained Barnes appropriately. Together, Captain America and Bucky fought Nazis both at home and abroad, as a duo and as part of the superhero team known as the Invaders. Barnes also teamed up with the sidekicks of other heroes in a group called the Young Allies. Additionally, Bucky was retconned in 1976 as the organizer of the flashback World War II superteam the Liberty Legion, set between the formations of the Invaders and the post-war All-Winners Squad.

[Marrowlight]

The issue is very disturbing, especially when you consider Bucky and Cap were the same age when Cap became a supersoldier and he kept his "friend" around, even to the point of endangering himself and Bucky. Apparently the super serum made cap appear older and much larger.

You are dead wrong, Cap was 18 when he transformed.

Barnes (named after James Buchanan, the 15th President of the United States, and the only president to be an acrobat, hence the homage) was an orphan, the son of a soldier killed in training at Camp Lehigh just before the United States' entry into World War II. As a result, he was unofficially adopted by the camp as a mascot. Nicknamed "Bucky," he took to wearing a uniform and becoming savvy with the ins and outs of military life, even though he was a teenager. It was at Lehigh that he met and befriended Private Steven Rogers, who by all appearances was the clumsiest soldier in the camp. This was at the same time that reports of the then-mysterious Captain America begin to appear in news magazines, and Barnes eagerly devoured the accounts of this new hero.

One night, however, while peeping on Rogers changing in his tent, he saw that his friend was changing into the uniform of Captain America. Barnes made a deal to keep the secret of Rogers' dual identity if he could become his sidekick. Rogers agreed and trained Barnes appropriately. Together, Captain America and Bucky fought Nazis both at home and abroad, as a duo and as part of the superhero team known as the Invaders. Barnes also teamed up with the sidekicks of other heroes in a group called the Young Allies. Additionally, Bucky was retconned in 1976 as the organizer of the flashback World War II superteam the Liberty Legion, set between the formations of the Invaders and the post-war All-Winners Squad.

Normally I wouldn't question, but since you did bring up the Invaders....how much of that is Golden Age and how much of that was 70s Englehart revisionism?

[Jefffar]

So is he not dead yet?

[Stone Gargoyle]

You are dead wrong, Cap was 18 when he transformed.

Well, there are arguments to the contrary, but at this point I think it hardly matters. He will be whatever age whatever writer that is currently handling him says he is. There has been little consistency in the way of continuity.

[MASTERMIND]

You are dead wrong, Cap was 18 when he transformed.

Well, there are arguments to the contrary, but at this point I think it hardly matters. He will be whatever age whatever writer that is currently handling him says he is. There has been little consistency in the way of continuity.

He graduated high school and completed a year of art school. Odds are he was bit older than 18, perhaps 19 or 20. Your point still stands though, what matter is who is writing him atm.

[Sir_Spirit]

Normally I wouldn't question, but since you did bring up the Invaders....how much of that is Golden Age and how much of that was 70s Englehart revisionism?

The stuff about buckies age and him being the camp mascot and then accidently discovering caps ID is pre-revision, don't know about the rest.

[Sir_Spirit]

You are dead wrong, Cap was 18 when he transformed.

Well, there are arguments to the contrary, but at this point I think it hardly matters. He will be whatever age whatever writer that is currently handling him says he is. There has been little consistency in the way of continuity.

He graduated high school and completed a year of art school. Odds are he was bit older than 18, perhaps 19 or 20. Your point still stands though, what matter is who is writing him atm.

My point was that Cap has always been an adult, while bucky wasn't, contrary to what'iz names statement that he and bucky were the same age.

[Stone Gargoyle]

You are dead wrong, Cap was 18 when he transformed.

Well, there are arguments to the contrary, but at this point I think it hardly matters. He will be whatever age whatever writer that is currently handling him says he is. There has been little consistency in the way of continuity.

He graduated high school and completed a year of art school. Odds are he was bit older than 18, perhaps 19 or 20. Your point still stands though, what matter is who is writing him atm.

Well, it gets a bit tiresome arguing petty points. This is a fictional character, not some great historical figure whose actions must be scrutinized for all to admire. It is really not worth getting worked up over. In the long run, it is the nature of the character that matters, the personality being portrayed.
In many ways, I identify with Cap. I really hope his comics continue to run for a long time.

[Stone Gargoyle]

You are dead wrong, Cap was 18 when he transformed.

Well, there are arguments to the contrary, but at this point I think it hardly matters. He will be whatever age whatever writer that is currently handling him says he is. There has been little consistency in the way of continuity.

He graduated high school and completed a year of art school. Odds are he was bit older than 18, perhaps 19 or 20. Your point still stands though, what matter is who is writing him atm.

My point was that Cap has always been an adult, while bucky wasn't, contrary to what'iz names statement that he and bucky were the same age.

Now, now, no need to be rude. I don't go referring to you as "that weirdo" now, do I? No need to be referring to me as "what'iz name".

[Marrowlight]

You are dead wrong, Cap was 18 when he transformed.

Well, there are arguments to the contrary, but at this point I think it hardly matters. He will be whatever age whatever writer that is currently handling him says he is. There has been little consistency in the way of continuity.

He graduated high school and completed a year of art school. Odds are he was bit older than 18, perhaps 19 or 20. Your point still stands though, what matter is who is writing him atm.

My point was that Cap has always been an adult, while bucky wasn't, contrary to what'iz names statement that he and bucky were the same age.

Now, now, no need to be rude. I don't go referring to you as "that weirdo" now, do I? No need to be referring to me as "what'iz name".

whatever, whoever you are

[Sir_Spirit]

Now, now, no need to be rude. I don't go referring to you as "that weirdo" now, do I? No need to be referring to me as "what'iz name".

whatever, whoever you are

[Stone Gargoyle]

Now, now, no need to be rude. I don't go referring to you as "that weirdo" now, do I? No need to be referring to me as "what'iz name".

whatever, whoever you are

Oh, sure, laugh it up there, Chuckles.