Should strangulation do more damage than a choke?

[Guest]

Okay, first some terminology so we're all on the same page:
For our purposes strangulation is "cutting off the blood supply to the brain." Choking is "cutting off the supply of air, causing asphyxiation."
Some additional terminology:
Carotid Restraint, Blood Choke, Sanquineous Strangulation, Strangle Hold - all alternate terms for strangulation.
Air Choke, Choke Hold, Respiratory Strangulation, Throttling, or Tracheal Choke - all alternate terms for choking.
Ligature Strangulation - strangling with some form of cord or cloth such as a garrote, rope, wire, or shoe laces.
Burking - smothering someone by covering their mouth and nose.

Now, since I know this is going to be asked, what's Palladium's difference between the two?
Choke does 1D6 damage (plus P.S. bonus) direct to Hit Points, per attack.
Strangulation currently has two different mechanics, one found in Splicers which basically cuts off air flow until the victim's ability to hold their breath gives out, causing dizziness, unconsciousness, and eventually death OR, as seen with Garrote (Rifts Merc Ops) or the Rawhead's Stranglehold (see LOD2) which does 4D6 damage direct to Hit Points, per melee round.

Personally, I'm wondering if I just shouldn't switch the damages, while adding a Knockout saving throw (see HU2) to chokes myself, and then use the Splicers version of strangulation for Burking rules.

[Shotgun Jolly]

Okay, first some terminology so we're all on the same page:
For our purposes strangulation is "cutting off the blood supply to the brain." Choking is "cutting off the supply of air, causing asphyxiation."
Some additional terminology:
Carotid Restraint, Blood Choke, Sanquineous Strangulation, Strangle Hold - all alternate terms for strangulation.
Air Choke, Choke Hold, Respiratory Strangulation, Throttling, or Tracheal Choke - all alternate terms for choking.
Ligature Strangulation - strangling with some form of cord or cloth such as a garrote, rope, wire, or shoe laces.
Burking - smothering someone by covering their mouth and nose.

Now, since I know this is going to be asked, what's Palladium's difference between the two?
Choke does 1D6 damage (plus P.S. bonus) direct to Hit Points, per attack.
Strangulation currently has two different mechanics, one found in Splicers which basically cuts off air flow until the victim's ability to hold their breath gives out, causing dizziness, unconsciousness, and eventually death OR, as seen with Garrote (Rifts Merc Ops) or the Rawhead's Stranglehold (see LOD2) which does 4D6 damage direct to Hit Points, per melee round.

Personally, I'm wondering if I just shouldn't switch the damages, while adding a Knockout saving throw (see HU2) to chokes myself, and then use the Splicers version of strangulation for Burking rules.

Well I am of the view that stranglation should be the more serious of the two. Choking doesnt really do any damage really.. example, someone choking on a slice of bread or somthing stupid like that.. its a slower version of death but not as violent as by stragulation *warning graffic* ie. by a garrott, cuts into the skin, through the windpipe, through the arteries right to the spinal cords, thats just a thin wire, wider things just crush everything up and may even break the neck depending on the strength used. hence more damage.

As for the burking, i think that would be kind of the same as choking, just the bag is outside the mouth and not inside the windpipe. I like the knock out idea, maybe every turn you may need to roll it. *not sure, seeing i dont have those books.*

Thats my view anyway.

Edit: Mind you squeezing someones throat with your hands I would assume do some damage aswell, but not like a garrot or rope.


Gosh, this was morbid....

[GreenGhost]

I've always thought the choking ability that some Hand to Hands give could be improved depending on the type of character that's being created.

We weren't trained to choke per se. We were trained to crush the windpipe. This is more lethal since the damage and affects could continue, if done right, even as you walk away.

[Thinyser]

Most definantly strangulation can kill/incapasitate faster than simply cutting off air supply.

Strangulation immedeatly cuts of oxygen to the brain while if you are only choked then there is still oxygenated blood getting to the brain, it just wont be able to pick up more oxygen on its next trip through the lungs.

As far as damage goes my order would be:
-Wire garrot (actualy cuts the flesh causing massive blood loss and a quick death)
-"Soft" garrot (rope or telephone cord etc. Doesn't cut but causes strangulation effecting near immediate incapacitation and death if held for more than a minute)
-Other ligature (cloth, belt, hands, etc. Causes strangulation same as soft garrot but with less marking of the throat and may take a melee or 2 longer to kill.
-Choke (Arm hold around throat that is usually slower to incapacitate but if sufficient pressure is applied it can actually cause strangulation same as the other ligature. Very little marking)
-Smothering (either via hand or pillow over mouth and nose or colapsing the lungs. No marking but slow.

[GreenGhost]

Most definantly strangulation can kill/incapasitate faster than simply cutting off air supply.

Strangulation immedeatly cuts of oxygen to the brain while if you are only choked then there is still oxygenated blood getting to the brain, it just wont be able to pick up more oxygen on its next trip through the lungs.

As far as damage goes my order would be:
-Wire garrot (actualy cuts the flesh causing massive blood loss and a quick death)
-"Soft" garrot (rope or telephone cord etc. Doesn't cut but causes strangulation effecting near immediate incapacitation and death if held for more than a minute)
-Other ligature (cloth, belt, hands, etc. Causes strangulation same as soft garrot but with less marking of the throat and may take a melee or 2 longer to kill.
-Choke (Arm hold around throat that is usually slower to incapacitate but if sufficient pressure is applied it can actually cause strangulation same as the other ligature. Very little marking)
-Smothering (either via hand or pillow over mouth and nose or colapsing the lungs. No marking but slow.

Nice! I like it

[Greyaxe]

Absolutely NOT.

Blood choke, if properly executed, will render the victim unconscious in 8-12 seconds. But it does no actual physical damage to the victim.

The lethality of the blood choke comes from the fact that it takes only a few seconds to "incapacitate" your opponent, and from there you can finish him off at your leisure. Blood chokes don't even hurt, save for maybe a little headache.

Air chokes on the other hand cause physical trauma to the larynx/trachea and can kill in short order. Straight suffocation takes up to 4 minutes to render a victim unconscious, but many times the trachea will become mangled in the process (especially if an object is used instead of just the hands of the attacker). This is damn near irreversable damage and will result in death even after the choke is released unless immediate surgery is performed.

In addition to that little fact, Air chokes hurt more so they are more likely to incapacitate a victim even if the choke is not finished. A blood choke, released early, will allow the victim to recover in mere seconds because there is little residual pain. Whereas an air choke will leave a victim coughing and choking all over themselves for quite a while, depending on the severity of the choke.

In conclusion:

Blood chokes = more effective
Air chokes = more damage.

So realisticallly you would ahve to develop a new system for the blood choke, say 1d4 sdc damage and save versus non lethal poison every melee or fall unconcious for 1d4-1 melee. What do you say.

[Rockwolf66]

Blood chokes = more effective
Air chokes = more damage.

Blood choke= perminant brain damage in 20 seconds, after choke is aplied.

Air Choke= 3 to 5 minutes till the subject runs out of air.

General medical information:
Here

What happens when the brain does not get enough blood: here

Note: it refers to a reduction in blood flow not a stoppage in blood flow.


Wikipedia:
here

[Guest]

Blood chokes = more effective
Air chokes = more damage.

Blood choke= perminant brain damage in 20 seconds, after choke is aplied.

Air Choke= 3 to 5 minutes till the subject runs out of air.

General medical information:
Here

What happens when the brain does not get enough blood: here

Note: it refers to a reduction in blood flow not a stoppage in blood flow.


Wikipedia:
here

Yup, gotta go with Rockwolfe over Lucky on this one. Sure, you can induce unconsciousness quicker with a strangle, but you also kill quicker.

[Rockwolf66]

20 seconds is a long time to hold a choke, but I'll agree to that.

Well the reason the person has brain damage is that it experiences the equivlent to a heart attack. To put is simply you are no longer able to think.

Biochemical Events

Within 20 seconds of interruption of blood flow to the mammalian brain under conditions of normothermia, the EEG disappears, probably as a result of the failure of high-energy metabolism. Within 5 minutes, high-energy phosphate levels have virtually disappeared (ATP depletion) [33] and profound disturbances in cell electrolyte balance start to occur: potassium begins to leak rapidly from the intracellular compartment and sodium and calcium begin to enter the cells [34]. Sodium influx results in a marked increase in cellular water content, particularly in the astrocytes [35].

At 20 seconds a person can still recover although they are never going to be the same again. If the person is Blood choked for much longer than that they are going to be braindead.

An airchoke takes up to five minutes to make someone stop fighting and it will make people panic and fight even harder to get you to stop chokeing them.

[mellowmaveric]

Okay, first some terminology so we're all on the same page:
For our purposes strangulation is "cutting off the blood supply to the brain." Choking is "cutting off the supply of air, causing asphyxiation."
Some additional terminology:
Carotid Restraint, Blood Choke, Sanquineous Strangulation, Strangle Hold - all alternate terms for strangulation.
Air Choke, Choke Hold, Respiratory Strangulation, Throttling, or Tracheal Choke - all alternate terms for choking.
Ligature Strangulation - strangling with some form of cord or cloth such as a garrote, rope, wire, or shoe laces.
Burking - smothering someone by covering their mouth and nose.

Now, since I know this is going to be asked, what's Palladium's difference between the two?
Choke does 1D6 damage (plus P.S. bonus) direct to Hit Points, per attack.
Strangulation currently has two different mechanics, one found in Splicers which basically cuts off air flow until the victim's ability to hold their breath gives out, causing dizziness, unconsciousness, and eventually death OR, as seen with Garrote (Rifts Merc Ops) or the Rawhead's Stranglehold (see LOD2) which does 4D6 damage direct to Hit Points, per melee round.

Personally, I'm wondering if I just shouldn't switch the damages, while adding a Knockout saving throw (see HU2) to chokes myself, and then use the Splicers version of strangulation for Burking rules.

Firstly they all carry chances of perminante brain damage which could be temporary or have lasting effects which i think a small percentage should be used to see if this occurs which increases as time goes on ilustrating the greater potential for these advers effects. Secondly putting that kind of pressure on somones neck is not plesant as anyone who has been choked out will tell you. Being smothered while it might be dificult to restrain the subject because of thrashing has the least ammount of damage physicly to the body. Any chokes to the neck carry the potential of damaging the tracheia or maby colapsing a blood vessel from the blood choke. Again these effects can be perimnate or temporary. But as always they are your own choice as to what you do and do not do.

[The Beast]

Arise. ARISE! ARISE YE DEAD THREAD!!!


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