Grenades

[Kesslan]

Right so I did a search, didnt seem to find anything that specifically addresed this... not that it's a 'major' topic.

But am I the only one who considers most of the MD grenades in rifts seriously gimped?

The WI ones for the most part seem to be ok at the 1d4X10 for AP etc. But then jump on over to the JA-12's at 4d6, hand grenades ranging from 2d6-5d6 MD etc.

I mean sure they tend to have a decent blast radius for the most part but... I dunno. I've allways considered the vast majority of them worthless even back when all I had was the RMB.

It's honestly at the point that especially now that it's quite common to see thing slike EBA with 80+ MDC that frag and HEs are all but useless unless you run into something thats immune to energy. And even then your better off using WI-GL AP rounds or mini missiles.

But then soon as you go to SDC hand grenades vs SDC opponents their a thing to be feared.

I mean I still allways carry grenades when I can just for the indirect fire useage but I just about allways go with plasma with maybe one or two HE just incase.

Granted they generally could at least potentially cause knockdown etc. But that only is good to a certain point. I guess the biggest issue I have overall is that an SDC grenade vs an SDC opponent in SDC body armor can still splatter him. Thats' not something the average MDC hand grenade can even come close to.

Even if you use a plasma grenade against some one in plastic man they could survive. As it is to make stuff with a blast radius more lethal I tend to apply damage to as much as the entire suit. Especially for things like plasma grenades that release a cloud of plasma.

Has anyone come up with some decent workable rules to make them nastier without having to seriously pump up the damage? I mean even if you take pass through damage into account (which I do, with included chances to break bones) most MDC grenades wont do more than give you a few nasty bruises and a bad headache.

[Rayven]

I hate to be a nitpicker, but could you clarify some of your abbreviations? I have no idea what "AP" means (in your statement 1d4X10 for AP etc.), nor do I know what "WI-GL AP" or "HEs" stand for.

[Library Ogre]

As for the original poster...yes, grenades are absolutely worthless in Rifts, but that is to be expected. A weapon that should do massive damage? Make it 3-4d6 and call it a day.

And if it's a cannon the size of most giant robots? It should cap out at 1d6*10... tops.

[Prince Artemis]

Grenades are a weapon of application, not damage. Yes, they're damage isn't particularly huge, with armor peircing peircing being the most effective thanks to the new rules, with plasma in close second. That being said, they can make things a heck of alot easier to deal with.

(For the purposes of this discussion I'll only be dealing with the damage grenades, and standard grenades. The value of the beehive grenades, smoke grenades, flashbangs/stun grenades ect are self evident.)

Frag grenades are best used in areas where you're facing off against a large group of badies. It has a nice spray area. It won't kill anything in eba, but it will still do damage to all of them.

High Explosives don't do great damage, but they're EXPLOSIONS. Unless you weigh a ton, it doesn't matter how much MDC your armor has, you're going to get knocked back a few feet. This should apply to everything not power armor sized or greater(and I'm not talking simple exo's like the hopper). So, if you're facing a tight nit group, tossing one of this in their midst will not only put them of balance and disorient them, it will also very likely seperate them.

Plasma is great for damage and splash, like frag. This is also a handy weapon as it will screw up heat seeking/sensing equipment, and damages everything, including their weapons, equipement, and the landscape. Great for getting rid of pesky cover.

Armor Piercing is what you want to use against the heavily armored units or vehicals, as the new rules lets you cut through them like butter. The new rule i'm referring to is in RUE in their combat section.

There's also the micro-fusion that the cs make which are generally great for really high damage.

Uses: Grenades being used in stand up war fare and fighting? Yeah, they're not worth spending the money. However, if someone is behind low cover, or in a hallway, or behinds a wall/door near an opening? You can lob the grenades without actually having to put yourself directly in harms way.

Anyone with a demolitions skill or trap construction skill can turn grenades into a nasty surprise, allowing you to cover your back or set up more effective ambushes. Also, since grenades have splash damage, as long as you throw them withen a decent area of the target, you'll hit them. Grenades in cramped quarters are effectively undodgable.

There are different 'types' of grenades too. There are the standard 'round' grenades that we use now, the cigar tube type that seem specifically for rifts and are seen in a lot of pictures where the cs/fq are. I'm sure there are other designs too. This means that you can cause a lot of havoc depending on the situation. Find yourself in a bunker with some gbs that you want to sabatoge? Well, those cigar grenades are the same size as the rail-intake on the ammo drum. No ammo means no boom gun. I won't give any more examples, because you just have to use your imaginations.

Grenades value is not in the dice but in the fact that they're fire and forget weapons that you can use in areas you don't want to go. If you're sure that there's someone on the other side of the door, you can open it up and shoot or attack in melee, where they can attack you back. OR you can open the door a crack, slide a grenade in and run. If your careful about it, they won't even know you did it. Get the picture?

[GreenGhost]

I know most of you won't like this idea, but I used PV when it comes to Explosives, Missiles, Ram-Jet Rounds, Railgun Rounds, etc. I simply treat MDC Armor as being able to protect against most things, but when it comes to those that I mentioned above the armor can be penetrated. When it comes to explosives- in order to penetrate the armor the explosive or grenade must land or go off at point blank of the victim. The armor protects against shrapnel when simply caught within the blast radius.

I got the idea when I saw the cover of the Juicer Uprising book where it depicts the CS Grunt slumped down againstthe wall with the hole blasted through his helmet.

[GreenGhost]

I think you're also not really giving enough thought to what grenades do.

Say you chuck a plasma grenade (5D6) at a bad guy in EBA. It's not going to kill him, but collaterally what is it going to do?

- You've burned off his rifle sling. Next time he lets go of his weapon he will end up dropping it.

- You've burned off the straps of any pack he might have been wearing.

- Cloth ammo pouches? Gone.

- Pistol belt? Gone.

You've also done 5D6 MD to his weapons, eclips, and any grenades he may have been carrying. Can you say "malfunction?"

Not to mention the fact that you have just started a fire.

Now, let these go inside an enemy tank or APC, and you have just damaged that vehicle's control systems to the point that it is now inoperable.

Damn! VERY TRUE

[Dustin Fireblade]

I hate to be a nitpicker, but could you clarify some of your abbreviations? I have no idea what "AP" means (in your statement 1d4X10 for AP etc.), nor do I know what "WI-GL AP" or "HEs" stand for.

WI-GL = Wilks Grenade Launcher, Armor Piercing ammo

Just to clarify

WI = Wellington Industries

[Esckey]

I've thought of using the Point Blank rule with gernades. What will hurt more a gernade praticually in my lap(inches away) or one a few feet away.
TW gernade with CoA on it is gonna hurt big time

[Grell]

I think you're also not really giving enough thought to what grenades do.

Say you chuck a plasma grenade (5D6) at a bad guy in EBA. It's not going to kill him, but collaterally what is it going to do?

- You've burned off his rifle sling. Next time he lets go of his weapon he will end up dropping it.

- You've burned off the straps of any pack he might have been wearing.

- Cloth ammo pouches? Gone.

- Pistol belt? Gone.

You've also done 5D6 MD to his weapons, eclips, and any grenades he may have been carrying. Can you say "malfunction?"

Not to mention the fact that you have just started a fire.

Now, let these go inside an enemy tank or APC, and you have just damaged that vehicle's control systems to the point that it is now inoperable.

Ya know, I applied a similar line of thought in a ROBOTECH campaign I ran and you know what happened? Destruction of a destroid missile pod (loaded) resulted in a 3000+ MDC explosion, all because the pilot was stingy with conserving ammo! Note that the high damage was from 85% of his ammunition (multiple systems) being set off from the catalyst explosion.

It was glorious, but you make an excellent point in thinking.

[Rimmerdal]

Indeed he does. They attack the enemy's assets, not the enemy.

I tried this trick in a Robotech PBEM it scattered a group of Pods so we could rescue a comrade from space. it makes a decent distraction.

[Kesslan]

Heh well guess I need to clarify a few things.

While I am complaining about the overall damage done by grenades. And thus in part in their usefulness I did I belive mention that I at least, still tend to carry even some of the firecracker frags because of the simple indirect fire aspect of them. Such as throwing over walls, around corners etc.

I mean I have even in Rifts used grenades to great effect from time to time. Even once took out some 6 CS officers in the field once with a single shot from the grenade launcher on the JA-12 by firing it through the open door of an APC while most of them were not wearing a helmet.

But thats the only reason it really did much of anything. The lack of being 100% in armor. I suppose I migh thave asked if it cooked off any ammo stores in the APC but considering it was being used as a mobile command post there might not have been much to cook off.

Anyway, it's just that overall I find grenades hideiously nerfed. Also as I said, I dont want to just double, tripple etc their damage. The mention of using pointblank rules, along with a few other suggestions folk have come up with does give me a few ideas though. And thanks for all the responses so far

Personally for things like plasma grenades i wouldnt give a knockback. It's more of an incidiary in my mind. So more burning, less blast force. HE and Frags though would be another story.. maybe use the same knock down rules as the Bandito Arms BB series of guns? I think those have slightly better knockdown than average but I cant recall.

As for using PVs on MDC weapons. As much as that makes sense I'll probably avoid it. The game can be lethal enough as it is for SDC characters without their EBA being easily punctured by MDC weaponry (and thus their soft squishy bodies being turned to goo)

[Greyaxe]

I think you're also not really giving enough thought to what grenades do.

Say you chuck a plasma grenade (5D6) at a bad guy in EBA. It's not going to kill him, but collaterally what is it going to do?

- You've burned off his rifle sling. Next time he lets go of his weapon he will end up dropping it.

- You've burned off the straps of any pack he might have been wearing.

- Cloth ammo pouches? Gone.

- Pistol belt? Gone.

You've also done 5D6 MD to his weapons, eclips, and any grenades he may have been carrying. Can you say "malfunction?"

Not to mention the fact that you have just started a fire.

Now, let these go inside an enemy tank or APC, and you have just damaged that vehicle's control systems to the point that it is now inoperable.

Not to mention is does say 3d6 to the helmet, each arm each leg as well as main body. People can loose hands and limbs very quickly when grenades are employed in battle.

[GreenGhost]

Not to mention is does say 3d6 to the helmet, each arm each leg as well as main body. People can loose hands and limbs very quickly when grenades are employed in battle.

Yes, that is a very good point. You have someone in full EBA with a main body of 80 MDC, but each arm is only 15.

A frag grenade can maim much more efficiently than it can kill. And a soldier with a limb blown off is usually just as out-of-the-fight as a dead one.

Good point Lucky. That's exactly the point. The same thing can be said for the M16. It was primarily designed to wound. The idea being that by wounding an enemy it would generally take at least two out of action- the wounded soldier and those who have to stop or put off the fight until the wounded soldier is pulled to safety. I know that example isn't "MD," but with that in mind- a frag grenade blowing off a limb and not killing an opponent is truely effective.

[Greyaxe]

Not to mention is does say 3d6 to the helmet, each arm each leg as well as main body. People can loose hands and limbs very quickly when grenades are employed in battle.

Yes, that is a very good point. You have someone in full EBA with a main body of 80 MDC, but each arm is only 15.

A frag grenade can maim much more efficiently than it can kill. And a soldier with a limb blown off is usually just as out-of-the-fight as a dead one.

Good point Lucky. That's exactly the point. The same thing can be said for the M16. It was primarily designed to wound. The idea being that by wounding an enemy it would generally take at least two out of action- the wounded soldier and those who have to stop or put off the fight until the wounded soldier is pulled to safety. I know that example isn't "MD," but with that in mind- a frag grenade blowing off a limb and not killing an opponent is truely effective.

You scooped me, yes that would have been my next point. As a rule plasma is the big hitter, i have blown off hands (5-7md) ruthlessly, but i dont hit hands with frags.

[Greyaxe]

Actually it doens't happen too often, but because it has happened my players fear grenades. They also see lots of hands and feet in cybershops an in use in their favorite mercenary hangouts.

[burgler81]

Proper use of grenades can be very dangerous and is usually a maiming experence if it's not fatal. That being said I've never had a character lose a hand but I have had one lose his legs.

[Kesslan]

Personally I've never stoped myself from maiming a player. In one case I actually did it on purpsoe as it was the only way I could see of not flat out killing a rather courageous PC.

This is abit off tangent but at least has to do with maiming so bear with me.

I was running a CS Based game, couple of players were assorted soldiers, one was a sniper, one a mutant, and yet another was a SAMAS pilot. Now i was running the game, online text base at the time (And i still have most of the logs somewhere).

At any rate times started getting laggy but I still wanted to try to keep the group sort of togeather, and it actually allowed me to keep the game going by giving them jobs that would suit them.

So at one point their going after some merc force and I throw in an enemy PA for the SAMAS pilot to deal with. SO off he goes, they have a joyous fight, he gets shot up abit etc. Since I couldnt yet time things to connect him back up with the other players I threw some random NPC mercs at him etc.

Meantime other PCs were doing other things then they ran into the 'boss' encounter if you want to call it that. A lone GB.

Keep in mind their all using RMB equipment. So this was, suffice it to say something very bad to run into. Couple of the squad NPCs get wasted/injured PCs get pinned and the call for help goes out.

Meanwhile swiching back to the PA Pilot he's badly banged up. One of my unarmored (But armed) NPC ambushes managed to nail him in teh arm with an AP Mini missile and his righ tarm had all of 9 MDC left. I was also using pass through damge rules and due to the very hard hit he not only took SDC damage but wound up with a broken arm.

He however still managed to stay concious and fly. THen of course he gets the call on the GB. At this point I stressed to him the fact that given his very badly injured state, the fact that he was almost out of ammo etc it would be perfectly understandable if he -didnt- go to face the more or less pristene GB.

None the less he went and did it, managed to get up close engage it in HTH, and keep it buisy long enough for reinforcements to arrive. However at one point he took a GB round to the chest, and was on the ground. Also given the fact that he wasnt gonig to give up any time soon I tried to find a reasonable reaction from the NPC who just a moment ago was going to kill him and every easily could now.

So I had the GB stomp his right arm into mush and run away. This necessitated his arm being replaced with a bionic limb. But he was in no way bitter about this.

Personally I like adding little things and hardships like that to characters. So I think it's something i'll keep in mind abit more often with grenades. THoguh even now alot of hand/arms can take at least one grenade blast. I suppose i can cure that by throwing two at them

[Thinyser]

Ok I must be ignorant here but where does it say in canon that plasma grenades (or any grenades for that matter) hit anything other than "main body"?

I know it makes sense that they would but as far as canon goes I don't remember seeing anything stating they effect all portions of the armor.



That said I don't think nades are useless but they are a bit under powered. My games have usually delt with this by bundeling 3 grenades together looping wire through the pins so that all 3 can be pulled at once and using them when they know that there are several enimies close together so that all 3 blasts hit all, or most, of the targets. 1 attack = grenade damage x3 to all those in the blast radius. Of course you burn through your grenades fast but it is an effective use of them.

[Thinyser]

Ok I must be ignorant here but where does it say in canon that plasma grenades (or any grenades for that matter) hit anything other than "main body"?

I know it makes sense that they would but as far as canon goes I don't remember seeing anything stating they effect all portions of the armor.



That said I don't think nades are useless but they are a bit under powered. My games have usually delt with this by bundeling 3 grenades together looping wire through the pins so that all 3 can be pulled at once and using them when they know that there are several enimies close together so that all 3 blasts hit all, or most, of the targets. 1 attack = grenade damage x3 to all those in the blast radius. Of course you burn through your grenades fast but it is an effective use of them.

Do you reduce the range they can be thrown b/c of the more bulkier nature.

depends on their strenght but yeah about 1/3 to 1/2 range for the "normal" strenght person. If you are a juicer or a SN critter then you can still hurl it near full or full distances. but to be honest grenades are usually used indoors in my games so the most they need to be hurled is 20 feet or so so that you are out of blast radius and there is a wall or two between you and the boom. There was one time when the character forgot that the building was only SDC and vaporized it with his bundeled plasma grenades... that was great!

[Greyaxe]

Ok I must be ignorant here but where does it say in canon that plasma grenades (or any grenades for that matter) hit anything other than "main body"?

I know it makes sense that they would but as far as canon goes I don't remember seeing anything stating they effect all portions of the armor.



That said I don't think nades are useless but they are a bit under powered. My games have usually delt with this by bundeling 3 grenades together looping wire through the pins so that all 3 can be pulled at once and using them when they know that there are several enimies close together so that all 3 blasts hit all, or most, of the targets. 1 attack = grenade damage x3 to all those in the blast radius. Of course you burn through your grenades fast but it is an effective use of them.

I take the rules from the missile combat section from RUE and apply to grenades. Everything in the blast radious takes half damage, so main body takes full damage all other affected areas take half damage.

[Kesslan]

I am a bit confused on this topic, compaired to a standard grenad the md one does 100 times its damage capability. Effectively pasting all SDC targets in its blast radius. Much more effective then an sdc grenade.

Or is it because when thrown at an mdc target it doesn't actually do enough damage to that traget to simulate the effect of what a sdc grenade does to an sdc target in real life?

In an sdc setting the SDC grenade doesn't do near enough to stop one high level sdc being in body armor. So the "realisitic" effect isn't counted in the game. If you add in the fact that everything in the balst radius takes damage, all pieces of armor, all equipment, all weapons and use knock down rules.

Is the grenade still under powered?

In the context I'm talking about. It's purely MD vs MD. Not MD vs SDC which is a slaughterfest.

Also for SDC grenades... notice you mention a -high level- in body armor. In MD a -low level- MDC or hell a really relaly really high level SDC character like a Titan can at least possibly survive a point blank MD Frag grenade hit.

Without body armor.

Now takea level 1 vagabond and put him in a plastic man suit. And throw a basic frag grenade at him. Frags being as far as I know the at least RL standard anti personel hand grenade.

Chances are he's not even going to loose so much as a finger even if it landed at his feet kinda thing.

And that. Is what I consider seriously wrong about MD hand grenades. I could see say.. heavy body armor saving you from that kinda thing. But the most basic, cheapest EBA you can get?

To me even the most basic manufactured MD frag should chew right through that for the most part. As far as I know for example. Even if you take a guy in real life. Slap him in one of the latest full body combat armor suits and then promptly throw a frag grenade at him. He's going to be badly injured to say the least if not flat out dead.

Even a guy in a bomb blast suit I'm pretty sure wouldnt come out entirely unscathed.

I could be wrong, but some how I doubt it. Even if I am... well a bomb blast suit most definatly classifies as 'heavy armor' to say the least.

So for the most part I was trying to see if I could find some way to at least HR or in general use basic MD grenades so that they became 'effective'. Rather than just something to use when your e-clips run dry so to speak.

I mean a number of HANDGUNS do more damage than the average grenade. Some of them do as much as a plasma. And a rare few do as much or more than a fusion grenade.

Sure no blast radius but still...

[Thinyser]

Also for SDC grenades... notice you mention a -high level- in body armor. In MD a -low level- MDC or hell a really relaly really high level SDC character like a Titan can at least possibly survive a point blank MD Frag grenade hit.

according to my Conversion Book 1 (the old version) Titans are MD creatures and get 3D6x10+60 MDC, which should be able to take a grenade or 6 with no problem.

<I'm not bagging on you BTW, I happen to agree actually>

In fact, using the Knockdown Tables in the Rifts GMG p35, I doubt any damage below 70 to 100 MD would even bother them, in movement. So tossing one at their feet they'd run away, unless the player RP'ed it that they dive to "roll with impact" or something.

Now in some books it mentions that even though characters are fully MD they still feel pain, while others mention that having so much MD is like them wearing a suit of armor.

I bet he meant titan juicer (guessing from the really high SDC comment).

[Kesslan]

Also for SDC grenades... notice you mention a -high level- in body armor. In MD a -low level- MDC or hell a really relaly really high level SDC character like a Titan can at least possibly survive a point blank MD Frag grenade hit.

according to my Conversion Book 1 (the old version) Titans are MD creatures and get 3D6x10+60 MDC, which should be able to take a grenade or 6 with no problem.

<I'm not bagging on you BTW, I happen to agree actually>

In fact, using the Knockdown Tables in the Rifts GMG p35, I doubt any damage below 70 to 100 MD would even bother them, in movement. So tossing one at their feet they'd run away, unless the player RP'ed it that they dive to "roll with impact" or something.

Now in some books it mentions that even though characters are fully MD they still feel pain, while others mention that having so much MD is like them wearing a suit of armor.

I bet he meant titan juicer (guessing from the really high SDC comment).

Yes sorry. I some how forgot to type in Juicer :\

I did infact mean a Titan Juicer as it's one of the few real oddities of the Palladium system. A character so strong he can easily injure himself. Since he does MDC damage with his punches but is still an SDC being and thus needs to wear MDC gauntlets etc or risk breaking their own hands when hitting things etc.

Ah well. In the end I dont see too much of an easy way of bumping up grenade damage without seriously overdoing it.

Maybe change it from d6 to D8so they have abit more oomph and just throwing in knockdowns along with all the usual pass through damage, damage to the full body etc.

That or just stick to throwing fusion blocks around corners instead.

[Jefffar]

I modified my explosives rule somewhat.

Explosives do their listed damage to the main body of all targets in their blast radius.

An explosive in direct contact with an object does double the listed damage (ie something successfully hit by the explosive projectile).

For each additional radius, the damage is divided by 10. This hapens until you are down to rolling dice for SDC damage with no multiplier.

For example a frag grenade that is listed as 2D6 MD to a 12 foot radius would do the following:

Target directly hit by grenade - 4D6 MD
Target within 12 feet - 2D6 MD to main body
Target within 24 feet - 2D6x10 SDC (upto 1 MD) to main body
Target within 36 feet - 2D6 SDC to main body

The above rules do not apply to explosives with a blast radius of less than 1 foot. They just do their listed damage to the target.

[Kesslan]

Hmm.. that would work. Something akin to what i did with lasers and the like... since...

Well I just dont see a projectile thats capaple of doing MD stopping dead at 4,000ft when it still has apparently as much energy at that range as it does point blank.

[R Ditto]

This is an interesting topic.

I would have to agree that grenades are powerful enough as it is.

The average grenade only packs a few ounces worth of explosives, and the most powerful explosives that I can think of (NG explosives from Mercenaries) do about 1 MD, 1D4 MD or 1D6 MD per ounce.

One thing that would be nasty would be making a heavy duty hand grenade (or better yet, a really bit grenade round at least as big as a small mortar round, a bit bigger than a 40mm grenade), one that utilizes a design philosophy like a Claymore Mine.
50 yard kill zone, and cause injuries up to 100 yards.

Perhaps having a large grenade with a kill zone of 12.5 yards and an injury radius of 25 yards, using at least a half pound of explosive around a central metal shaft or ball, to help direct the blast outward. Double the blst radius for MDC explosves/pellets, perhaps even as powerful as a Claymore Mine, but with full spherical blast zone.

Even a regular fragmentation grenade could probably be packing a good 20-30ft kill range.

Toss in thermobaric explosives for addedd effect. If I understand correctly, slower expansion rate, but expands for a much longer period of time, giving them a better blast radius than regular HE, and possibly be very well suited for use in fragmentation style grenades. The secondary charge splits the grenade open and begins to push out the thermobaric explosive and the outer layer of pellets, then the thermobaric explosives goes off, and the pellets get a nice blast pressure wave to drive them outward with great force.


Knockdown force (or lack thereof...)
When dealing with knockdown using MD explosives, I would probably boost the knockdown potential by a good x10 (esspecially if close to the blast).
Comparing SDC blasts to MDC blasts is laughable. Something that will not a huge half ton SDC borg off of its feet outright probably won't even have any chance of knocking over some scrawny 90 pound weakling in 10 pound MDC armor. (yeah, right...)

Perhaps like this.
Within 10% of blast radius (or direct hit), knockdown power is x10
within 50% of blast radius, knockdown power is x5
at the edge of the blast radius, knockdown power is x2.

For fragmentation or plasma, perhaps half the above (so no boost at max blast radius) since their damage is not relying on pure blast force, but by other means.
For concussion types (such as thermobaric explosives) double or even triple the boosts, since they are designed to put out a blast with more power/duration rather than with more blast speed.

I just had a sort of funny thing pop into mind due to this increased 'explosive knockdown force' idea...
Some guy in MDC armor jumps on an SDC grenade to shield his friends from the blast, not much happens when it goes off. He does the same again when an MDC grenade lands, as the smoke clears the others see a small crater and no guy in MDC armor, then they look up and see him coming back down screaming, and they scramble for cover before he lands on one of them.

I modified my explosives rule somewhat.

Explosives do their listed damage to the main body of all targets in their blast radius.

An explosive in direct contact with an object does double the listed damage (ie something successfully hit by the explosive projectile).

For each additional radius, the damage is divided by 10. This hapens until you are down to rolling dice for SDC damage with no multiplier.

For example a frag grenade that is listed as 2D6 MD to a 12 foot radius would do the following:

Target directly hit by grenade - 4D6 MD
Target within 12 feet - 2D6 MD to main body
Target within 24 feet - 2D6x10 SDC (upto 1 MD) to main body
Target within 36 feet - 2D6 SDC to main body

The above rules do not apply to explosives with a blast radius of less than 1 foot. They just do their listed damage to the target.

My above idea could work well here also, just go with a flat x10 to the knockdown potential.
So, when rolling knockdown chances for the 2D6 MD grenade from your example, a point blank blast means an effective knockdown equal to a 4D6x10 MD attack (I don't see anything still standing after a point blank blast capable of ripping an SDC tank clean in half), while the secondary blast radius (24ft) still has a small chance of knocking something down, while even ther tertiary blast radius (36ft) is still going to pack enough punch to possibly knock a normal person off of their feet.

Also goes nicely with my 'guy dives on grenade and gets air time' idea...

Hmm.. that would work. Something akin to what i did with lasers and the like... since...

Well I just dont see a projectile thats capaple of doing MD stopping dead at 4,000ft when it still has apparently as much energy at that range as it does point blank.

At about 4,000ft is about the time the round will run out of space to fall and smack into the ground.
I personally would think that a weapon packing an explosive charge can do damage indirectly by firing at a high angle, but being an indirect attack, accuracy is reduced, but at the same time possibly getting it to go a good 2-3 times farther than its max effective range. Accuracy being reduced since the projectile is being aimed aimed high to get it to land on/near the target rather than shooting it directly at the target.

[Kesslan]

At about 4,000ft is about the time the round will run out of space to fall and smack into the ground.
I personally would think that a weapon packing an explosive charge can do damage indirectly by firing at a high angle, but being an indirect attack, accuracy is reduced, but at the same time possibly getting it to go a good 2-3 times farther than its max effective range. Accuracy being reduced since the projectile is being aimed aimed high to get it to land on/near the target rather than shooting it directly at the target.

Oh I know that. But you can still arc a shot etc. Also most of the weapons in Rifts are not the kind your describing. I'm talking specifically about point and shoot sorta stuff. Railguns and energy weapons specifically. Energy weapons you cant arc the shot as there's no drop. Railguns you could since it's an actual projectile.

Eitehr way I dont see either 'stopping dead' at max range which is why I whiped up an HR to allow for firing past the max range of a weapon. I mean that kinda thing is done IRL by snipers etc. And It's not like I made it easy to do. Energy weapons I have it quickly disapating to the point the damage goes SDC then it does nothing. Projectiles I allow 'arcing' of the shot out to X range beyond max.

On the subject of Claymores thats another thing that does.. well piddly damage. There are Claymores in Rifts. But they do like 4d6 or something unnoticeable like that. Your way better off using a fusion block.

In the end I suppose without introducing armor penetration rules there's no way to really make them nasty without having to pump up the damage. Which.. as I've said I dont really feel is the proper answer.

I just found it kinda sad when I had a character on a Rifts MUSH who went around with a JA-12 and grenades for it for FOUR YEARS and only ever used the GL on it like.. three times. Twice on SDC targets. (In one notable case an APC full of CS officers, some with their helmets off)

I mean its that uselss compared to other options. These days I think I'd just see if the GM would let me mount a modified GL-4 or something in place with like 1-4 shots.

I mean what with the AP grenade being actually something to worry about and the other grenades still having their occasional uses. Part of the problem of course is the power creep to begin with. Plastic man used to be at least barely acceptable armor. Now it's kinda a last ditch OMG i'm so broke thing in most games.

Now the average suit tends to have around 80-100+ MDC.

[R Ditto]

Kinda makes sense to me. I mean, even mini-missiles don't do much against some of the more-recently printed armors/power armors. I'd blame power-creep, and do a "fix" for the way I play the game.

^^Burst of 4 micro-fusion grenades(6d6x4) from a CP-50 can still do some pretty good damage, with a lot of knowdown capabilitty.......or if you have an EOD specialist friend(EOD's can increase damage of explosives by 25%) that can hook you up (1d4x10+5)x4 four a burst.....

I would have to disagree.
The EOD specialty is explosives, not super compact/complex nuclear weapons.
It is questionable IMO that they can boost plasma warheads of a mini-missile (not sure how 'explosives' knowledge relates to a plasma warhead/charge/device), but fusion stuff is going to be way out of the EOD's league, akin to trying to have a rocket scientist do brain surgery.

Be easier/funner to cram a pound of NG 6 into a Mini-Missile and go to town with 2D4x10+20 MD per pop, or cram a half pound/8 ounces of the stuff into a grenade for 1D4x10+10 MD each. I can see an EOD carrying around a few pounds of the stuff for a rainy day... (or ripping off stuff from video games like Halo and using a bunch of grenades to launch vehicles high into the air...)