How BIG are the gods, anyway?

[Veknironth]

Well, this is one of those questions that is hard to answer. The cheap answer is make them as present in the world as you need them to be. IF they are too active, then the characters' effect on the world is dimished somewhat. If they are absent entirely, what's the point of having a PC choose a god?

I imagine the gods as running their religions like massive corporations. THe God is the CEO and Founder, the BIll Gates of the following. The PC's are like employees of Microsoft and they are going to start in the e-mail room. So, they aren't going to have a whole hell of a lot of contact with the deity him or herself. However, as they move up the corporate ladder, or make some sort of name for themselves, they may receive messages or a Christmas bonus from the big man. Eventually, they may even have the opportunity to shake hands and have a picture with their god of choice.

-Vek
"Set runs his religion like Haliburton."

[J. Lionheart]

Quick answer: Gods are whatever size they wish to appear as, and can change appearance at will.

Longer answer: Check out the section on Deific Realms in Dragons & Gods for information about their "true" sizes. The more worshippers they have, and the more worlds they are worshipped on, the larger a god is. Thoth, for example, is way bigger than Chantico. Some gods are also bigger within the context of their Realm Size than others - Algor, for example, is bigger than all (I think - I'm at work, no books) the other Northern Gods, despite the fact that they once shared a realm.

--edit--
How's THAT for replying to the subject, and completely failing to reply to the post? That's what I get for posting from work. I'll try to make an actual on-topic reply when I get home

[Yisterwald]

In my game they're mostly in the background, but occasionally one will flex some muscles. I don't like to diminish the role of the characters much, though, so I model their impact on "earthly" affairs after the old Hercules and Xena series. Gods are present and active, but checked in their power by each other and the actions of determined mortals.

[pblackcrow]

In my game if you do something for a church to which your character is associated with, you get what are called "Faith Point". Be they a half a point for something minor heroics in the eyes of the church, 1 point for something of medium heroics, 2 for high level heroics. When the PC chooses to call in the faith points, you should listen to their request and if it does not interfear with things grant them. Some requests might cost a half a point. Some might cost 50...Causing there to be peace with the Wolfen army for example. 10,000 for world peace.

[RockJock]

I very rarely use gods as active parts of my game. On the other hand, their churches are some of the big political power players in my world. The only way the gods actively mess with things is when a group does a job on behalf of a church. They may be rewarded from the church in political favors, healing, or gold, but may also be rewarded by the god himself.

[Natalya]

In my game, direct deific interference is rare, but church intrigues are not.

I do like the Microsoft example though. And it is so true.

[Kesslan]

Hmm. Well this isnt really PF specific, but It's how I generally handle gods in general in any game they actually play a role in (As in, actually exist).

For the most part, churches, cults, etc are all as they pretty much allways have been. The only real difference is, because the gods are actually -real- they tend to toe the party line as it were a heck of alot better. Because if some one is royally misrepresenting the god. You can expect something bad will come of it.

That 'something bad' depending entirely uppon the nature of the 'crime' and the type of god your dealing with. An evil god may strike the offender with some plague like curse. A 'good' god may instead at least intially try to 'reform' the offender to show them the error of their ways. A neutralish one may go either way kinda thing.

Also the importance to the god of a specific worshiper will also balance out their level of interaction. The 'average' worshiper will generally only be given token aid. Perhaps even purely as something comming from the clergy or what have you. Truely devout members are likely to get more attention. And then you'd have 'special cases'. Regardless of any rank (if such exists) in the church. From simple pilgrim, to high priest to lost child looking for guidance the god may personaly step in. So far as to even manefesting before the person in question in one form or another. Be it openly "I am X god of X" to a diguised 'mentor' or some such.

PC priests for example I throw into this sort of 'special' catagory, where the god -may- infact go so far depending on what the PC does. The more the PC follows a course of action suiting to the gods temperment, the more likelyt he god is to grant the PC their prayers, additional powers, aid in times of need etc.

D&D has some wonderful examples of this sort of thing. There's one example given in some RPG or RPG novel or something about a bunch of priests who went to pray to their god for assistance. They desired to build a new, grand temple to honour their deity.

At first they did a prayer for a sign of the gods favour in doing this act. This they recieved. Then they went a step further, requesting if the god could provide them with money to assist with building the temple. So a gold coin droped from the sky.

But that wasnt enough for them. Yes yes! This si what we desire oh great lord! sort of thing. Please shower us with yoru bounty so that we may build this temple!

This constant greed however had angered the god, but the prayer was again answered. A heavy shower of golden coins each marked with the symbol of the god fell from the sky. And fell in such numbers that the priests were crushed to death.

The surviving followers however did build the temple, but none of the greedy priests survived to see it built. Thats just one example of how you might portray the response of a god. It will also I feel vary from god to god. Some are more active in the affairs of mortals than others. Yet more are quite distant and only may help a follower should they deem it 'necesasry' to do so.

Such as say, their followers beginning to loose faith. They may only sprinkle about enough scant few miracles to keep people beliving in them and that is all. Others may actively 'manage' their followers much like the example of the CEO given earlier. Honestly I'd play each god a little differently in how they handle things and 'go about buisiness'.

They are also I feel, far more likely to do more for new worshipers in areas that they have none. This would be especially true of old gods that were once forgotten or simply have very few followers left. For without followers a god is indeed in trouble.

[Veknironth]

Well, as for how much influence a church would have, I recommend the following. The richer and more educated an area, the less the influence of the Church. The poorer and less educated the more influence. Assuming people in the Palladium world are much like the ones in this one, when things go bad they will look for something to comfort them. Your merc spent 20 years seeking comfort at the bottom of a bottle and that is a very common response. Then he goes the other way, and seeks comfort in a higher power.

Gods in the Palladium world actually intervene from time to time so one of their representatives would have a lot of respect. This is especially true if a deity had recently put in a cameo in the area. However, there are so many deities that only small regions will be dominated by 1 sect. So, the larger the area, the more the competition and the less influence by each group. Also, the gods of Palladium are not the kind purported by our monotheistic religions. The God with a capital "G" is omniscient and omnipotent. The Palladium gods are just powerfule beings, but they are not ALL powerful and certainly are not ALL knowing. That is going to make people much more skeptical.

-Vek
"The female gods are much hotter in Palladium."

[Library Ogre]

I included a rather large section on how influential the various churches are in the manuscript for Mysteries of Magic; it's part of why clergy became their own section, separate from witches, warlocks, etc.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I use gods in my games, but they have their own agendas and generally only help humans when it works in their favor, ie accomplishing what the god wants done. There are hundreds of examples of this in mythology. They are like the Godfather, making offers you can't refuse and wiping out your enemies in return for a favor to be named later. Since gods can generally only influence things they have domain over and only see through the eyes of their followers unless in avatar form or walking amongst men, this makes their reliance on the cooperation of their followers very important. Thir power also comes from the number of followers they have, so they need to make the occassional cameo now and again, perform the occasional miracle, etc.

[J. Lionheart]

Which brings me to my next question: How evangelistic are the churches of palladium?

There was a great section in PF1E that included, among other things, three basic stats on most of the major religions, summed up as "religious direction." Each religion was either Expansive or Non-Expansive, Exlusive or Non-Exclusive, and Restrictive or Open.

Expansive/Non-Expansive covered where they were actively soliciting new followers, which sounds like the stat you'd want.

Among the expansive are most of the evil gods (Chantico, Yin-Sloth, Church of Taut, Kirgi, Panath), the warrior gods (Lopnel, Rurga), the largest of the good churches (Church of Light, The Northern Religion), and of course the combo (The Church of Light and Dark - world's largest religion).

The only really major religion that's non-expansive is Dragonwright, and that's just for the time-being. Most of the non-expansive ones are small groups that don't have any particular desire to be known or have power.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

I was thinking of putting a much bigger focus on the different gods and churches in the world. And, I was wandering how big of a role they play in other campaigns- are they in PC's backgrounds, are they plot points in your stories, how do the gods and the churches influence the palladium world? Stuff like that...

Any input would be appreciated.

Gods have a HUGE influence in the world. Religion is probally one of the most if not THE MOST powerful political forces on the Palladium world.

Simply look a most of the maps of cities, and you'll notice a bunch of churches throughout the world. Consider what a church brings to a community.

1) Healing
2) Religious ceremonies (Weddings, last rites)
3) A moral structure to society (Less crime sense the charity of the church can prevent some from getting desperate enough to turn to crime.)
4) Blessings of a god/priest upon a crop/harvest/etc.
5) Assistance in disspeling ghosts/spirits etc.
6) Salvation of their mortal souls

To your average peasant literally a church/priest is a godsend. To that end most people in the PFRPG world wouldn't wish to upset or anger their god or goddess.

To that effect priests have a good amount of political sway in a community. To some being excommunicated from the church should be seen as a fate worse then death. Now if a priest or worse an entire ordr of priests decide that some noble has slighted the church or caused offense to heir god then it could be enough (depending on how devout the populace is) to cause a rebellion.

All my characters generally worship a god. Some even offer tributes to other gods they don't worship in ceritan circumstances.. Reguardless religion should be a big part of the PFRPG.