Weapons Experts and Combos

[Prodigy]

When you combine a Weapons Expert and another Hardware category, it states one trades away 4 W.P.s' and the are NEVER gotten back. Does this mean if I forfeit W.P. Automatic Pistol, and I pick the Law Enforcement skill Program, I do not get the W.P. from said skill program, or that i cannot use a secondary skill to recapture a skill?

That seems extreme.

[Stone Gargoyle]

When you combine a Weapons Expert and another Hardware category, it states one trades away 4 W.P.s' and the are NEVER gotten back. Does this mean if I forfeit W.P. Automatic Pistol, and I pick the Law Enforcement skill Program, I do not get the W.P. from said skill program, or that i cannot use a secondary skill to recapture a skill?

That seems extreme.

The point is, your character would refuse to train with other weapons, preferring his method of combat, using all his training time for his weapon of choice. He did not get cheated, just fixated. The loss of other skills reflects the character's devotion to his particular weapon and the number of hours a day he invests in training in it.

[Prodigy]

understood, but does that mean he can not get them through the other stages in his training, or later on from secondary skill selection. The way you explain it, which kinda makes sense, is he says "i have no need to train with a bolt-action rifle, ever, since I want to learn computer hacking and hot wiring at that particular level."

good point, but i am just looking for clarification.

Thanks

[znbrtn]

i interpret it as you don't get those skill slots back, meaning that you could indeed get the skills via secondary skill selection/whatever else.

[Prodigy]

hey Z

i think you are right, not only because it benifits the character more but it seems to make more sense. You should not be penalized that much for taking the other specialty.

thanks guys

keep the replies coming

[Spectre]

I see never as truly meaning never. Even if you get a skill through a scholastic program, just pass over it.

One of the reasons for the penalty is combined categories can get very nasty. Combine a mass amount of skills with the ability to make inventions that rival super powers and you have a force to be rekoned with.

If you add PU2, certain hardware categories can make inventions that actually have super abilities. Taking a few penalties for this seems just fine.

[BillionSix]

I would say that you could learn them with secondary skills.

It's similar to other Hardware categories and the loss of three attacks. It says in the usual overblown capital letters that the three attacks are NEVER gotten back, but then states that they can gain attacks through advancement in levels. Basically, it just insures that you will always have less attacks then a person of equivalent level.
A Weapon Expert who doubles up will have less WPs than one who concentrates solely. He can buy them back over time, or from secondary skills, but that just keeps him from spending those skills on other areas.

Forbidding a player from buying them requires a certain level of in-game justification.
"But my character is a Weapons Expert. He would always be trying to improve his skills. He started off a bit behind because of his Electrical training, but he is catching up now!"
"No. He can't."
"But he bought the bolt-action rifle. He is practicing every day. He will eventually get better at it."
"He just can't!!"
"But why not?"
"He has brain damage!!! He hit his head and lost the part of the brain that knows about bolt-action rifles!!!"

Brian

[znbrtn]

I would say that you could learn them with secondary skills.

It's similar to other Hardware categories and the loss of three attacks. It says in the usual overblown capital letters that the three attacks are NEVER gotten back, but then states that they can gain attacks through advancement in levels. Basically, it just insures that you will always have less attacks then a person of equivalent level.
A Weapon Expert who doubles up will have less WPs than one who concentrates solely. He can buy them back over time, or from secondary skills, but that just keeps him from spending those skills on other areas.

Forbidding a player from buying them requires a certain level of in-game justification.
"But my character is a Weapons Expert. He would always be trying to improve his skills. He started off a bit behind because of his Electrical training, but he is catching up now!"
"No. He can't."
"But he bought the bolt-action rifle. He is practicing every day. He will eventually get better at it."
"He just can't!!"
"But why not?"
"He has brain damage!!! He hit his head and lost the part of the brain that knows about bolt-action rifles!!!"

Brian

exactly. it's rediculous to say that he just couldn't do it.

[BillionSix]

it's by choice. it's a RPG game and they have to draw the line someplace.

think of like being asked to choose which RPG you'd prefer. which ones do you avoid ? why ? that's why.

"I'll keep WP Pistol because I have one my dad bought for me and I can carry it and use it while I'm out adventuring. Since I don't plan on becoming a sniper or shooting automatic rifles, lasers or tossing hand grenades...I won't bother with training in those anymore and divert my energies into Electronics..."

Yeah, but you are saying, "It's a choice," then eliminating choice. They have chosen to start with much less, but can gain more later. They do this by using secondary skill slots that could have gone somewhere else. Or, they could choose to use that skill slot on First Aid or something when the time comes.
A Mechanical Genius who starts with one attack per round can still gain attacks over levels. He starts off way behind, but can catch up. The Weapons Master should get the same option. He'll always be slightly behind though, if not in weapons, then in the side areas he ignored.

Brian

[Tinker Dragoon]

When you combine a Weapons Expert and another Hardware category, it states one trades away 4 W.P.s' and the are NEVER gotten back. Does this mean if I forfeit W.P. Automatic Pistol, and I pick the Law Enforcement skill Program, I do not get the W.P. from said skill program, or that i cannot use a secondary skill to recapture a skill?

That seems extreme.

You can get the W.P.s back as Secondary or Scholastic skills, but they technically shouldn't get the benefits of the character's advanced weapon skills (sharpshooting, quick draw, etc.) in this event.

[BillionSix]

yee-up, RPGing a ***** huh ?

let me put it to you this way: Do you really follow every PB rule, to the letter ? what's another house rule at this point ?

(hehe. At first I thought you meant every Physical Beauty rule, rather than Palladium Books. A moment of confusion.)

To answer that question, I don't follow every rule, but I try to err on the side of in-game consistency, or on the side of coolness and fun.
As a player, I have had many GMs who come up with house rules to limit players, and make the games less fun, in the name of "game balance"
Didn't care for it.

I would rather say, "Okay, at the start of the game, you start with much less in one category, or fewer attacks, in exchange for another Hardware category. But you can make up for it as you advance in levels. You just won't be as versatile as you would if you took first aid, singing and seduction. "
As a player, if I was told that I couldn't buy a W.P. later on, especially if I was a Weapons Expert, who would be expected to study new weapons over time, my first question would be, "Why can't I?" and I would want an answer that makes sense in-game. I would still be behind a regular Weapons Expert, especially if he had also been buying new W.P.s. And if he had been buying them, my inability to would be doubly unfair.

To be honest, I don't see a two-category Hardware character who can make up for lost time to be really unbalancing, especially in a game with players who can walk through walls and throw trucks.
Game balance is really a myth, I think. Many games strive for it, but we have to accept that some characters will have more raw power than others. This doesn't mean they are better characters. And in a game with Immortal Mega-Heroes, gimping a poor Hardware character any more than necessary just seems like GM dickery, enforcing rules because he can, not because it would make the game more fun.

I would allow the character to buy up new W.P.s because ultimately I ask myself two questions. "If the character were allowed to grow and develop in the way the player wants, would it unbalance the game too much?" No. And, "Would it be more fun and satisfying for the player?" Yes.