How many Physical Skills?

[Razorwing]

I've recently seen a trend in my games of players taking quite a few Physical Skills at 1st level. On average, we're talking about between 1/4 and 1/2 of their Related and Secondary skill selections.

Now the overall scope seems to be more for the bonus SDC to help their character survive the first few levels (rarely are any physical skills taken after 1st lvl), but some of my players have characters who are almost combat mokeys without being Men-at-Arms OCCs (a Line walker with HtH- Martial arts plus all the physical skills available to the class; he was playing a combat mage though).

So far no one has actually broken any rules, and have taken the minimum skills required in other areas. I'm just wondering if this seems normal (are my players merely trying to ensure the survival of their characters in a very harsh enviroment) or are they on the verge of Munchinism?

How many Physical skills do you allow your players to take at 1st level? In total? I'm not really looking for ways to fix this (it hasn't proven to be much of a problem yet), just info on if this is a normal trend and how other groups tend to take Physical Skills.

*as a side note, I went back and looked at many of my old characters (NPC and otherwise) and noticed that I tended to do something similar (taking a larger number of physical skills than I realized at the time). Perhapse they picked up this trait from me?

[lather]

Happens sometimes.

Why are they taking these skills? When are they lifting weights and sparring in the gym? There has to be a reason for the skills selected.

If you decide to allow it to go unchecked, you just up the power level of their foes and balance is restored and they are back to getting smoked their first few levels.

[lather]

Exactly.

[Razorwing]

Like I said, for the most part, they seem to be doing it more for the SDC bonus to help them survive combat for their first few levels (the most vulnerable time of their character's lives) than the other bonuses (though those also help out a bit). Rarely do they take the skills after first.

Mages tend to go for the physical skills that build their PE, since that helps with their PPE (and HP). The combat mage focused on a lot of physical skills to help him survive long enough to cast spells (this was back before the spell casting time change or PPE chanelling option when even level 1 spells took half a melee to caste; 2 to 4 actions/attacks).

I do check over their characters as they build them and before play (I even keep a record of them on my computer), and like I said, they haven't broken any of the character creation rules. Most of the time, they justify it as a part of a basic combat/survival training (since their caracaters are often expected to travel into dangerous, uncharted wilderness). If they have to take skills from another area at 1st level, they tend to take the minimum (but still with an eye to their survival, taking the more widely useful skills in that area than rarely used specialized skills that are rarely used). The only characters who rarely take any physical skills, even at 1st level are those who choose inhuman RCCs (a surprising rareity in my games), such as dragons and such (mostly because they get little choice in the physical skills or little benifit from them).

Overall, it hasn't been that much of a problem, just a noticable trend (since I do keep records of their characters). I was just wondering how many physical skills most people and groups tend to take (or allow) on average.

[lather]

they haven't broken any of the character creation rules.

Yea, the rules allow for this and there are differing opinions about it, some very strong opinions.

If they are going to need so much SDC off the bat, then you can consider giving them an SDC bonus right off the bat so that they can build characters that are more dynamic and, possibly, that make sense. Like I said, if you have a boxing mage, when does he train in between all his magely pursuits? It has to make sense the skills they take. Also, if they are taking so many physical skills, then those are valuable skill slots that could have been used for other things such as Detect Ambush, Land Navigation, and Wilderness Survival - instead they got Boxing, Tae Bo, and Body Building - and no time for any of them, and when they are wandering lost int he woods and their CamelBaks have run dry, they are entering a very dangerous situation without a single shot fired.

That or dial back the power and danger of the challenges early in the game. More specifically, the physical power and danger of the challenges.

It is a matter of playstyle, too. High power, hack and slash, et cetera.

As for how many Physical Skills (that have significant bonuses not including things like swimming and prowl): 1 maybe 2 at most. Any skill player selects must be justified, otherwise, the player cannot select it. So a character that grew up on the mean streets cannot have Acrobatics because the character never had the opportunity to learn the skill. That character is also likely not able to pick up the Technical Writing skill either, for example. They need balance and diversity in skills and loading up on Physical Skills is, as was mentioned already, very dangerous in many campaigns simply because they lack the skills to overcome most challenges they will be facing.

[t0m]

they got Boxing, Tae Bo, and Body Building - and no time for any of them,

i agree. its hard to imagine a wizard waking up every day and doing 200 push ups and sit ups. its actually hard to imagine a wizard doing a single sit up lol

if you take a bunch of physical skills at level one, the rest of your skills will suffer in the long run. (your level one skills will always be your highest level skills in the end). also taking physical skills as primary skills is bad because you get bonuses on your primary skills, none of which apply to physical skills.

if your wilderness survival guy (for example) doesnt take wilderness survival until he gets a chance to pick more skills (usually around level 3) his skill level will be roughly half of what it would be if he took it at level one, by the time he gets to level 6. level 6 is when leveling really starts to slow down to a crawl (in my games at least) and you dont really have much chance of your skills going up much any time soon.

imo the earlier the better for taking core skills. physical skills can be taken as secondary skills any time without costing you a primary slot and its potential bonus. my current group sat down and made our characters as a group, makig sure to have all bases covered between the 3 of us (fighting, healing, magic specialists, with basic thief and ranger skills).

[t0m]

ie A guy who used to body build is always stronger than a similar guy who does not even if he doesn't keep it up. (just believe me).

at the peak of your bodybuilding training you can lift X number of pounds. if you stop doing it for a year you will find you cant lift X number of pounds any more. if you want to be able to lift x number of pounds again you have to start training again.

you are right though. assuming that taking the bodybuilding skill implies that you trained a lot then stopped your training to go adventuring. it does make you stronger overall. maybe the skill description should say that if the character intentionally keeps practicing (in current game time), that he should get a bigger PS bonus? or a growing one? (+1 per level?)

i was also specifically talking about a wizard doing pushups every morning being hard to imagine. the palladium fantasy book describes them as being repulsed by physical activities. i realize all characters are different but imagine gandalf doing 200 push ups before breakfast.

oh, and over the years i have spent a lot of time wondering how a guy with iq 3 can take some skills, but luckily most of my players have been responsible in that regard.

[lather]

my current group sat down and made our characters as a group, makig sure to have all bases covered between the 3 of us (fighting, healing, magic specialists, with basic thief and ranger skills).

This is a great way to make characters. It's fun and it ensures team work

[lather]

You completely lost me.

As for what is wrong with all Physical skills. Nothing is wrong with it, specifically. Although it may be an indication of a problem elsewhere.

I happen to think it creates undynamic boring characters that are ill prepared to face a lot of the challenges they are going to face. It also leads to characters that do not make sense. In my opinion such characters do not make sense. In other opinions, maybe they do. Nonetheless I think that fighter mages belong in that other game. Fighting is a pursuit and way of life. Magic is a pursuit and way of life. You cannot do both. PFRPG 1e handled that very well.

[lather]

except when you consider such things as the battle magus and what not.

That is not min-maxing, dual classing, and what not. Assuming the rules of the OCC make sense, then having a mage that knows how to kick the teeth out of my head makes sense.

[lather]

Rifts Earth is a a physical world, a battle torn world.

Yea, it's all in where you strike the balance.

Where as, no matter what class you are, you will never use all of your other skills as often.

Disagree. Scientists, operators, cyber docs, wilderness scouts, .... at least should be making extensive use of their scientific, mechanical, medical, and wilderness skills more than toeing the front line with grunts and infantry. Otherwise, what's the point of having OCCs at all?

Yet Ironically, it is all the other skills that progress regardless of usage.

Yea so if I sit down and do a book of algebra word problems my swimming proficiency goes up, too!? This way does keep things simple, perhaps too simple.

[lather]

Rules for using and altering character attributes are notably sparse in Palladium games.

[lather]

Takes notes how you use the skills so at least your games will be consistent.

[lather]

Oh and Math is a great example. Almost everyone has it, and nobody ever uses it, yet they all become experts eventually. It must be osmosis.

This line shows the major difference between my games and yours, as my players have had to use Math skill a lot! I have even had them make math rolls to see if they can even figure out the guy they just bought a rifle from overcharged them a few thousand credits! Without the math skill how would they know?!

I set up my games to use skills very very often. My games are definitely not hack n slash combat scenes through the whole thing.

That is an extremely common use of the Math skill - probably the primary use of the skill, especially in a rough and tumble world such as Rifts. But even skill heavy campaigns may not flex every skill often. There are only so many opportunities to be an Escape Artist.

And just because a Math skill is not extensively used, I think we should avoid making the leap straight away to hack and slash.

[lather]

Another thing I do though, is that the players are stuck with the HtH given by their Occ, no buying it up higher. Makes the choosing of ones occ and what thy are good for a bit more divided. I did it mainly cause every single one of my players would have martial arts or assassin, and would kind of through character concepts out the window.

[lather]

"As long as we're rolling, we're having fun."

[t0m]

How is that any different than any skill. It does not have to be a Physical Skill to apply this thinking. All skills go up wether you use them or not.

i totally agree with you here. its messed up to assume any skill will go up without use.

i also agree with epic about some of the skills not having a very well defined description of their usage..

Where as, no matter what class you are, you will never use all of your other skills as often.

in our small group we tend to use our skills very regularly. keep in mind we are playing the fantasy setting, where there are less occs and skills in general (compared to rifts anyway). if we didnt pick and regularly use the skills we have our group wouldnt be around any more. instead we would be endlessly trying to find our way out of the woods, or dying from infections from poorly treated wounds, or starving to death because no one without training is likely to be able to catch food in the wild, or even id an edible plant. i guess everyone plays a different game though...

[lather]

Playboy's writing about robot mechanics now?

[lather]

"I've been tweaking my android sex bot the last couple of months."

[lather]

You completely lost me.

As for what is wrong with all Physical skills. Nothing is wrong with it, specifically. Although it may be an indication of a problem elsewhere.

I happen to think it creates undynamic boring characters that are ill prepared to face a lot of the challenges they are going to face. It also leads to characters that do not make sense. In my opinion such characters do not make sense. In other opinions, maybe they do. Nonetheless I think that fighter mages belong in that other game. Fighting is a pursuit and way of life. Magic is a pursuit and way of life. You cannot do both. PFRPG 1e handled that very well.

I don't know about that, I'm a lab supervisor by night and a gym junkie/martial arts enthusiast by day. People don't have to be geeks or jocks, you can actually be a geek and a jock at the same time. Just takes more effort.

So when do you have time to adventure for treasure and wealth to keep your power armour maintained and in good condition?

Also, combat scientists and operators already built into the game and I already said I have no problem with them. However, a Rogue Scientist player should have his or her character doing Rogue Scientist things more than Full Conversion Cyborg things.

[elecgraystone]

I've recently seen a trend in my games of players taking quite a few Physical Skills at 1st level. On average, we're talking about between 1/4 and 1/2 of their Related and Secondary skill selections.

Well, that's easy. Most of the time it's silly NOT to.

Boxing=Who can't use another action per round, no matter WHAT you do?
Arcobatics and gymnastics=you get 6 skills AND stat bonuses, what better way to use a skill.
Swimming=really smart people drown just as well as dumb ones.
Running=more movements options. (The medic would LIKE to get to you, but it'll take a while with a spd of 5)
Prowl=sneaking good, nuff said.
fencing=An extra d6 damage with a sword, if a use a sword, might as well do more damage.
Other physical skills=any stat you get to 16+ gives you bonuses.

Now i'm not saying you should gimp your character and not take the skills needed to do what your character should be able to, but physical skills give so many benefits right at the start.

However, a Rogue Scientist player should have his or her character doing Rogue Scientist things more than Full Conversion Cyborg things.

Why? Who said he even LIKES what his "job" is. Maybe he became a Rogue Scientist to please his parents (both Rogue Scientist themselves), but he always wanted to be a kung-fu fighter. Why should someone be straightjacketed into taking skills that other people think he should? And who said that the Full Conversion Cyborg WANTED to be one? He could be MORE interested in scientific matters that the scientist. There just isn't one cookie cutter way for an OCC to be.

[lather]

Then why have OCCs at all for that matter?

[lather]

Like I said, usually an indication that something has gone wrong somewhere.

[lather]

I gotta agree with lather.

Yay for me!

[elecgraystone]

Then why have OCCs at all for that matter?

I don't know, MAYBE the core skills and abilities? All other skills are character picks for a reason.

I run my games heavily around skill usage and smart play. My players shouldn't need to take a ton of physical skills.

That's fine but most physical skills have non-combat uses. Boxing gives you one more action per round, swiming, running, climbing, prowl acrobatics and gymnastics are great ways to AVOID combat. Only fencing, body building, aerobics, ect just give combat bonuses. There should be as much chance to use tightrope walking as cardsharp, or AI. There should be "smart" skill usage for physical skills too. Unless no one is ever expected to hide, climb, swim or run anywere in your game.

[elecgraystone]

You know very well the discussion was about adding up physical skills for the physical bonuses and not taking them to legitimately round out a character.

You said that characters shouldn't take "tons of physical skills" didn't you? There are very few that can't be used in rounding out a character. Again, boxing gymnastics/acrobatics, climbing, running, swiming are all useful skills WITHOUT the bonuses. If you have a problem with too many bonuses, just place a cap on the total bonuses you can get. (one of the rifters had one)

[lather]

Then why have OCCs at all for that matter?

I don't know, MAYBE the core skills and abilities? All other skills are character picks for a reason.

In other words, we have OCCs to facilitate min-maxing.

[elecgraystone]

Its a pointless argument anyway. You do not get that many stat bonuses.

All you get from Physical Skills is 2 PP , 5 PE and 8 to 10 PS.
And the bonuses to Speed or even SDc are hardly enough to off balance a game.

As I see it

Everyone should have Swimming.
Athletics and Running are going to be common skills.
Boxing and either Gymnastics or Acrobatics. (Heavy Combatants might have both.) Ocassionally Wresting.

It is very rare you see someone take more than these 4 to 6 skills, and if they do, it is not going to give them much, as it only takes 4 Physical Skills to get 90 % of the bonuses.

In other words, we have OCCs to facilitate min-maxing.

No, in other words we have OCC related and secondary skills so that the player have some imput into there characters knowledge and skills. One player may want every lore skill, one might want all the languages and one just might want physical skills. All are min-maxing then.

[lather]

In other words, we have OCCs to facilitate min-maxing.

No, in other words we have OCC related* and secondary skills so that the player have some imput into there characters knowledge and skills. One player may want every lore skill, one might want all the languages and one just might want physical skills. All are min-maxing then.

* Emphasis mine.

We have OCCs to give a character creation direction and focus. I do not care if a mage takes boxing (assuming a mage can) as long as the player can justify it beyond the rules allowing it. The player also has to spend time in the gym sparring and spend time in the field fighting, not just soaking up an extra (spell) attack per melee round. There is no reason for boxing to do that anyway; it should be an extra melee attack, specifically an extra hand to hand attack, and even more specifically a punch since that is all boxing is. If all his time is spent researching and other magely pursuits, then he cannot have it.

A mercenary, however, gets boxing with very little question. Because he spends all his time training to fight.

The OCCs give focus and direction. I have said all along the skill selection has to make sense and it has to be justifiable. Being sensible and justifiable means no min-maxing.

[elecgraystone]

We have OCCs to give a character creation direction and focus. I do not care if a mage takes boxing (assuming a mage can) as long as the player can justify it beyond the rules allowing it.

Having the skill in his OCC related skills is enouph of a justification.

The player also has to spend time in the gym sparring and spend time in the field fighting, not just soaking up an extra (spell) attack per melee round.

WHy? A mage that doesn't cast a single spell in a level still gets a free spell for leveling, and skills he didn't use still increase. Why should a skill that doesn't improve be practiced?

There is no reason for boxing to do that anyway; it should be an extra melee attack, specifically an extra hand to hand attack, and even more specifically a punch since that is all boxing is

Sorry you don't like the way the system works, but it works that way. An extra attack does let you cast one more 1-5th level spell per round.

If all his time is spent researching and other magely pursuits, then he cannot have it.

If that's all he did then he'd never advance in levels and would never adventure so the point is moot.

A mercenary, however, gets boxing with very little question. Because he spends all his time training to fight.

So wrong. How many CORE skills do NOT involve fighting? Characters do not spent ALL thier time in just one activity. That's just one dimensional. I should also note that thier are some mercenary OCC's (merc book) that only get HTH basic and can't take boxing. It all depends on the OCC.

The OCCs give focus and direction. I have said all along the skill selection has to make sense and it has to be justifiable.

All the justification needed is the fact that the OCC CAN pick it. If it didn't make sense, it would exclude the skill.

Being sensible and justifiable means no min-maxing.

You say min-max, i say smart picks. If you can get an extra attack making you able to take 1 more action per round, that's smart for ANY character. If your PE goes up and you cast spells, you get some more PPE, that's smart. If you ever expect to enter combat, getting your PP to 16+ is smart. If you ever expect to have to lift or carry anything (other players included), extra strength always comes in handy. And who can't use extra spd?

You seem to have a very narrow view of who can pick what skill. As long as the skill is avalible (IE someone to train you) and the occ can pick it, there should never be a problem. Do you grill every player on why they learned dragonese, computer ops, land navigation or basic mechanics? DO you make players list were and how they learned each NON-PHYSICAL skill? Why should physical skills be different? At sometime in the characters past they took the time to learn the skill. Unless that somehow played a major event in thier past, what more do you have to say?

[Razorwing]

While I appreaciate all the replies (this is the longest thread I've managed to start on this forum to date), I must admit that the discussion has gotten away from what I originally intended.

I had merely noticed that a lot of my players are taking quite a few physical skills initially, and was wondering what the average amount for other gamers and groups were. I never intended this to be a discussion on how physical skills can be used to twink a character (personally, I feel that there are more dangerous ways than mere physical skills to do so).

While I was initially worried that this trend might be the start of such powergaming, the fact that it hasn't resulted in such in my games suggests that my fears were mere paranoia. It is something I should keep an eye on, but not to worry about.

Many of you have given me new insight into the problems physical skills can lead to (some real, others blown way out of proportion, imo), and I will keep an eye on this.

Now in one final atempt to get this thread back on track (though I'm not too worried if it doesn't work), I ask how many physical skills do you as a player or as a group (on average) usually pick at first level?

[lather]

Having the skill in his OCC related skills is enouph of a justification.

Difference in playstyle. For me that is not interesting. But that is irrelevant. I already said if a mage can have it, take it. In my game, you need to have a reason for it. We will get back to this point later though.

The player also has to spend time in the gym sparring and spend time in the field fighting, not just soaking up an extra (spell) attack per melee round.

WHy?

Role-playing?

If it is all cookie cutting and math, ok, he gets a new spell no matter what. In games that have actual role playing though it works differently.

Why should a skill that doesn't improve be practiced?

If you do not practice a skill, even if it does not improve, you lose the skill. Repetition is the mother skill. In real life and I would suggest in a role playing game as well.

There is no reason for boxing to do that anyway; it should be an extra melee attack, specifically an extra hand to hand attack, and even more specifically a punch since that is all boxing is

Sorry you don't like the way the system works, but it works that way.

Does not mean it works that way in my game, and just because it is written in the rules that does not mean it makes sense or beyond reproach. Again, the difference here is playstyle. If someone wants a character with boxing to be able to pull the trigger one more time, as much as that is utter nonsense, I am not going to stand in the way. I am just going to point out how that does not make a shred of sense and completely defies logic.

If all his time is spent researching and other magely pursuits, then he cannot have it.

If that's all he did then he'd never advance in levels and would never adventure so the point is moot.

Researching and magely pursuits are exactly how a mage advances in levels

Adventure can be research and it can be a magely pursuit. "Hey I want this rare Siberian mineral" or "I heard about this guy that knows this one spell I really want to learn and no one around here seems to know it, but he lives in Germany."

Again, playstyle, whether or not you actually role play or just count experience points.

A mercenary, however, gets boxing with very little question. Because he spends all his time training to fight.

So wrong. How many CORE skills do NOT involve fighting? Characters do not spent ALL thier time in just one activity. That's just one dimensional. I should also note that thier are some mercenary OCC's (merc book) that only get HTH basic and can't take boxing. It all depends on the OCC.

I meant mercenary to be more generic.

Sorry, I stand corrected, not all his time. Most of his time. Warriors, operators, mages, everyone spends extra time honing their craft which manifests itself when reaching a new level of experience.

If it didn't make sense, it would exclude the skill.

Palladium is not lord and master of all things logical.

I think the spirit and the letter differ and in a role-playing game I go with the spirit.

We are just going to have to move forward agreeing to disagree.

You say min-max, i say smart picks.

Potato pahtahto.

You seem to have a very narrow view of who can pick what skill.

No. You completely misunderstand my point of view if you are saying this. Except secondaries I would open up almost all electives to any OCC. If a character is a wilderness scout growing up in the sticks and has never seen or even heard of a radio, Radio; Basic should be unavailable (even if it is a core skill) because it makes no sense whatsoever that he can operate something he does not know even exists. Does it make sense to you that even a core skill might be unavailable to a character?

As long as the skill is avalible (IE someone to train you) and the occ can pick it, there should never be a problem.

That is pretty much what I have been saying all along. If it makes sense that this character can learn the skill, take it. However, I further add to this that skills require practice (repetition is the mother of skill) to retain them and to improve them. Just because there is no "+x per level" does not mean a hill of beans. It still has to be maintained or it is lost or at least diminished.

Do you grill every player on why they learned dragonese, computer ops, land navigation or basic mechanics?

No grilling necessary. They are role players and get the idea that character actually is more than a series of dice rolls and charts.

DO you make players list were and how they learned each NON-PHYSICAL skill? Why should physical skills be different?

Yes. My players spend more time on their backstory than they do on rolling dice and reading charts.

"Why does your character have sign language?"

"Because his brother (3 years his senior) was deaf. That is also why I have lip reading."

"Those skill slots could have been filled with Acrobatics and Gymnastics you know?"

"I'm not an acrobat or a gymnast. I am a Diabolist with a deaf-mute brother."

"Very well."

At sometime in the characters past they took the time to learn the skill. Unless that somehow played a major event in thier past, what more do you have to say?

That reptition is the mother of skill.

[lather]

I ask how many physical skills do you as a player or as a group (on average) usually pick at first level?

1 or 2. Usually prowl and swimming, although a few times I wish I had climbing.

[lather]

Ooh and a Mage probably practices prowling about his Library while simutaniously doing Research, so he can maintain his skill.

Sounds good to me.

Time DOES pass between gaming sessions. Not only is this a logical way to rationalize usage of skills, it makes sense.

Sounds good to me.

When a group gets together to "Adventure" There is no way every character would be able to account for all of their skills as a group, EVERY time they play. And it is unreasonable to expect it.

Sounds good to me.

Great a character learned how to use sign language because he has a Mute brother. History is nice. Now does he have to use Sign Language every time he games to rationalize maintaining his ability?

No. But he does have to practice it, either by communicating with his brother or while falling asleep. As already mentioned, this can happen between sessions.

It is a GAME. It is not real life, it is not even remotely close to being reality. And people do not play it so they can have another job, of proving on a dailly basis that they use all of their skills. Micro Manage a group like that and you will kill the fun. And people will not keep playing if its more work than fun.

I do not micro manage a group. The player group writes most of the story usually.

They keep asking for more. Yea, I don't know what I'm doing.

[lather]

I disagree that a character has to use every skill to keep it from atrophying or to improve it, but he would have to spend time and energy on it.

Depending on the skill, more time and more energy than other skills.

It requires a bit of thought on the Game Master's part. God forbid.

[lather]

Swimming should be a given.

I would buy into this, unless the character grew up in a desert, but, hey, what do I know?

I also give +1 PE bonus on swimming (and also in Pilot: Bicycle). When I am GM of course. Hehe.

I may swap out prowl for climbing in the future. Seem to do more climbing than prowling anyway.

[elecgraystone]

Now in one final atempt to get this thread back on track (though I'm not too worried if it doesn't work), I ask how many physical skills do you as a player or as a group (on average) usually pick at first level?

All depends on the character i'm making. I try to get boxing and either acrobatics or gymnastics and swimming (and a HTH skill if core doesn't give it) at a mininum. The above skills are just too useful NOT to take if you can. Add climb and prowl if possible since the ones you get from acrobatics/gymnastics do not advance.

Role-playing?

If it is all cookie cutting and math, ok, he gets a new spell no matter what. In games that have actual role playing though it works differently.

Sorry, but all roleplaying through it does is pretty up the same result. One one side the mage just gets the spell and on the other his old mentor shows him a new spell. In the end it doesn't matter because he still gets a spell.

If you do not practice a skill, even if it does not improve, you lose the skill. Repetition is the mother skill. In real life and I would suggest in a role playing game as well.

I missed that part in the rulebook. It must have been under "house rules".

Does not mean it works that way in my game, and just because it is written in the rules that does not mean it makes sense or beyond reproach. Again, the difference here is playstyle. If someone wants a character with boxing to be able to pull the trigger one more time, as much as that is utter nonsense, I am not going to stand in the way. I am just going to point out how that does not make a shred of sense and completely defies logic.

My responses are based on how things work as per the rules. Feel free to make up anything you want to for your world. As to boxing making you better able to pull a trigger. There have been threads on that. It's just the way the combat system works in palladium games. Lets just say it makes as much sense as your HTH combat skill also being the basis for shooting too. WHy does a 1st level guy with HTH assassin fire less often then a 1st level guy with HTH basic? You explain that one and i'll think about boxing not making sense.

Researching and magely pursuits are exactly how a mage advances in levels [Laugh Out Loud]

Adventure can be research and it can be a magely pursuit. "Hey I want this rare Siberian mineral" or "I heard about this guy that knows this one spell I really want to learn and no one around here seems to know it, but he lives in Germany."

Again, playstyle, whether or not you actually role play or just count experience points.

So he just gets free EXP? WOW i want to play a mage in your world. An OCC that can just sit in the lab gaining levels.

Now "research and it can be a magely pursuit" can be a fine hook but they shouldn't be an EXP gain all by them selves. No more than the gunfighter wanting to visit somewere or the psychic wanting a rare item. Great hooks, but not in themselves how they level. It's the adventure itself that gains them EXP. And again, even if you could gain EXP just from "research and it can be a magely pursuit", that's pretty boring.

Does it make sense to you that even a core skill might be unavailable to a character?

See what i said? "As long as the skill is avalible (IE someone to train you)"

However, I further add to this that skills require practice (repetition is the mother of skill) to retain them and to improve them. Just because there is no "+x per level" does not mean a hill of beans. It still has to be maintained or it is lost or at least diminished.

Interesting house rule, but not one i'd use. Everything i said was based on actual rules from the book.

Yes. My players spend more time on their backstory than they do on rolling dice and reading charts.

That's fine, not what i asked, but that's fine. My question was do your characters justify each and every skill pick and if they do not why do the only have to justify some and not others? The only ones I'd single out are ones that finding teachers for is difficult. Physical skill do not fall into that category IMO. It's the scientific, technical, electrical, mechanical and some language skills that might need justification.

[lather]

Sorry, but all roleplaying through it does is pretty up the same result. One one side the mage just gets the spell and on the other his old mentor shows him a new spell. In the end it doesn't matter because he still gets a spell.

Role playing in a role playing game in the end doesn't matter

I missed that part in the rulebook. It must have been under "house rules".

Like I said, it difference in playstyle, and we play different.

WHy does a 1st level guy with HTH assassin fire less often then a 1st level guy with HTH basic? You explain that one and i'll think about boxing not making sense.

I have no idea why. I did not write the rules.

Neither did I say it makes sense. Or if I did, I should not have.

So he just gets free EXP? WOW i want to play a mage in your world.

Who said anything about free xp?

An OCC that can just sit in the lab gaining levels.

How is sitting in a lab and making one's way to Siberia to look for a mineral remotely close to being the same thing? One is sitting in a lab, the other is something utterly and completely and unequivocally different.

How is sitting in a lab and making one's way to Germany to look for a mentor and convincing him to teach you a spell remotely close to being the same thign? One is sitting in a lab, the other is something utterly and completely and unequivocally different. Well, since we are already playing make believe, let's just make believe you found him and make believe he taught you the spell because, you know, in the end it doesn't really matter.

It's the adventure itself that gains them EXP.

Did I indicate otherwise?

And again, even if you could gain EXP just from "research and it can be a magely pursuit", that's pretty boring.

When a research session is more than a throw of the dice and actual role playing, it can be extremely rewarding to the character and the player.

See what i said? "As long as the skill is avalible (IE someone to train you)"

I misunderstood. You were speaking OOC related and secondary skills context exclusively. Or so I thought.

Everything i said was based on actual rules from the book.

I know. It was some of those rules I was saying that did not make a shred of sense.

Yes. My players spend more time on their backstory than they do on rolling dice and reading charts.

That's fine, not what i asked, but that's fine. My question was do your characters justify each and every skill pick and if they do not why do the only have to justify some and not others? The only ones I'd single out are ones that finding teachers for is difficult. Physical skill do not fall into that category IMO. It's the scientific, technical, electrical, mechanical and some language skills that might need justification.

Sorry. Yea every skill is considered to determine whether or not it makes sense in the context of the character. My illustration was not supposed to suggest that only Sign Language is considered.

[elecgraystone]

Role playing in a role playing game in the end doesn't matter

No, roleplaying out how you get the automatic spell or not doesn't matter if in the end you get the spell. Some may want to, some may not. It just depends wether you roleplay out every little detail or not. Some like that in a game and some do not.

Like I said, it difference in playstyle, and we play different.

I'll agree with that.

Did I indicate otherwise?

Kind of. i don't count normal "research and magely pursuits" as exp gains in them selves. What you have with the germany trip is an adventure hook. It's not the research per se that grants the EXP it's the trip.

When a research session is more than a throw of the dice and actual role playing, it can be extremely rewarding to the character and the player.

Then it wasn't the research that gave the EXP, it was the roleplaying. That's fine.

Sorry. Yea every skill is considered to determine whether or not it makes sense in the context of the character. My illustration was not supposed to suggest that only Sign Language is considered.

If you require every skill be justified, then that's fair.

Personaly i'm not that worried about the skills making 100% sense. If the character takes a skill like pilot:spacecraft, i have no problem with it. Why? Because the chance he'll get to use that skill are nil to none and it's his skill slot. If they take every physical skill, that's fine too. He has less other skills to fall back on.

[lather]

elecgraystone, understood and glad things are cleared up now.

[elecgraystone]

elecgraystone, understood and glad things are cleared up now.

Glad we could come to an understanding.