To take on Atlantis

[Astral_Explorer]

The Federation of Magic with the help of a tech force.
Enough mages with anti magic cloud and the destruction of enough Pyramids (Now made sdc from the clouds) As proven by the destruction wrought by the CS strike in Tolkeen would do untold dmage in Atlantis.

Remember big nasty things like to shop and do business in Atlantis for the amazing fact that it is stable. Take that away with the situation that happened in Tolkeen with random rifts people getting hurtled this way and that and magic becoming unrealiable and it would cripple Atlantis financially.

Add to the fact the number of slaves Atlantis must have compared to slave masters. It seems Atlantis has many more slave masters then any other nation. Traditionally there is a huge difference between the number of enslaved and the number controlling them. Through in the chaos of the above and a massive slave revolt of millions could put a massive hurt on Atlantis. Not every slave is a soft squishy human there are many that if freed could be a real threat. A massive slave revolt would even cause Splyncryth to worry. Not because with time and disposable minions he couldnt get it under control, but because other Splugorth etc would see him as weak and unable to control his empire.

Alien intelligences don't play nice with eachother unless they have too.
There are I am sure more then a few other Splugorth that would love to take over operations in Atlantis.

The only reason they could hold on is the Kittani, Splyncryth is wise enough to know he needs the tech and not just magic incase something go's horribly wrong. Everywhere else we see either tech heavy communities or magic heavy with a bit of a mix in certain places like Kingsdale etc.

Still a human Kingdom that actually used magic and tech together to it's best advantage would give Splynncryth a run for his money.

Another often forgotten thing is the True Atlanteans who more then anyone I could see wanting to take the motherland back.
No clue why they are few in number since they spread out among the megaverse there should be millions. They are human and I don't see them being prude about relations especially if they were close to extinction then more then ever would they want to repopulate their numbers. With acess to so many different cultures, tech levels and magic from being dimensional wanderers should certainly have seen them come across cloning technology if nothing else.

A force of true atlanteans with allies should be something incredibly scary.
Those Pyrmids Splynn uses the Atlanteans are masters of. What happens if rifts open even if ever so briefly and the Atlanteans just distribute enough explosives to damage each pyramid.

Raw power as in people throwing themselves at eachother, then yes Splyncryths minions and holdings could push back any group on the planet as of now.

People and indeed even Splyncryth don't fight that way. They use subterfuge, strategic attacks and startegy. As much as the Coalition seems like they are mere domino's to be knocked down before they send the next wave of domino's in is ludicrous.

You dont run a militiary by handind someone a rifle and armor and saying have fun. You might run a guerilla movement stupidly this way but not a true militiary.

Another thing let's remember is even Splyncryth was impressed with Tolkeens magical achievements. Enough so that he wants to steal a bit of that pie for himself.

Another Evil force that I can see able to take Atlantis is the Yama Kings of China. I don't know why they would bother but if sheer numbers is what counts they have them.

Another options and something I am sure Splyncryth and all the other AI's worry about is that the Great Old Ones, beings that supposedly dwarfed the Splugorth and the Vampire intelligences were locked away placed in sleep stasis etc.

If that magic were rediscovered and used I could see many of the AI's fleeing earth. Sure they would leave avatars and witches etc but why risk their own eternal imprisonment. I think this is a big reason why Splyncryth is so interested in what Tolkeen achieved. Their creation of the Iron Juggernaughts was very damn close to rune weapon creation in a whole new startling way. They might not be indestructible but they can move, act and interact in a way rune weapons can't.

It wouldnt be nice to be trapped in one of those for most elementals etc but Tolkeen achieved it and what if they could achieve locking away a being like a Splugorth ?

A strategic strike against the Lord of Atlantis would have a pretty big impact as well. If Splyncryth were destroyed all his HighLords would lose power as stated much of their power comes from their connection to him.
With Splyncryth and the Highlords gone the upper chain of command would evaporate. After a while this would be rectified but definatly the damage of cutting off the serpents head would be done.
Not that killing Splyncryth would be easy but then again those soul destroying rune weapons do not say destroy all souls but Splugorth ones.
Heck a Sunaj may have specific instructions to do just that if all hell breaks lose in Atlantis.

While Splyncryth could pulls troups from another world if war broke out, woudl he ? By weakening himself on one of his other worlds a rival there may attack.

Back to sheer numbers though forces that could take on Atlantis are the Xiticix and Mechanoids. The Xiticix really have no reason too but they certainly have raw numbers and a great many beings in Atlantis have high ppe which the Xiticix need to feed their grubs.

The Mechanoids are a diferent story and even the Kittani know not to take them lightly. The Kittani would have been wiped out if Splyncryth didnt come along and say "Hey need help ?"

I am sure if the Mechanoids made major appearance then Splyncryth would lose control over the Kittani, they would either want to fight and put the mechanoids down as quickly as possible or flee. It is scary to face the race that almost anihilated your species.

I will give some crdit to the Kittani though they are human enough and aggresive enough to probably go for the fight option first.

Archie could capitilize on this by just building fake mechanoid robots.
A wave of fake mechanoid robots would get the Kittani jumping.

[cornholioprime]

The NGR, CS, Russia, China and Japan all togather has one force might deafet the Sploogs if they can somehow lock of his ability to get supplies from Splynn or other dimensional markets.

Not even close.

Splynncryth has more military forces alone -and well-seasoned military forces at that -than nearly the entire human population of the entire planet.

And that's the garrison on Atlantis alone.

Sorry, folks, but while Kevin holds this particular Splugorth back with the almighty Plot Device, it is undeniably clear that the humans of the Splicer World have a far better chance at beating N.E.X.U.S. than the forces of Earth have of beating Splynncryth --and he's a wimp in Sploog terms (meaning that even if you managed to somehow defeat this guy, a much meaner and more powerful and more interventionist Sploog would quickly take his place).

[Talavar]

I'm seconding cornholioprime - Splynn has such an advantage, not just because of his advanced technology and his advanced magic, but also because he has the advantage in numbers as well. He's got millions of Kydians & Kittani on Atlantis; with just those two minion species he could successfully fight any major power to a standstill. Atlantis must have one of the highest population densities on Rifts Earth, because no other nation has as many cities with over a million inhabitants.

[Talavar]

Theres always the killer satellite from space option. A mass driver does 2d4 x 10,000 to a 5 mile radius or something insane like that. It might not kill Splynn, but it would eliminate most of his minions.

Does anyone on Rifts Earth have a mass driver? No.

[Library Ogre]

Theres always the killer satellite from space option. A mass driver does 2d4 x 10,000 to a 5 mile radius or something insane like that. It might not kill Splynn, but it would eliminate most of his minions.

Splynncrth can control space with relatively little effort (Teleportation Power Circles are free to make, and cost only one set of faerie wings for unlimited payloads). I am fairly certain he has assets in space to warn him of any incoming dangers, give him satellite communications, and other needs he might have for space, especially given that he has the Kittani to aid him.

[Talavar]

They exist in the Megaverse, so they could be one over earth. If not now then in the near future.

The Old Ones exist in the Megaverse. Am I going to bring them up as a plausible way to defeat the Splugorth in Atlantis? No.

[oni no won]

Howdy, folks. This is purely hypothetical, but a question to ponder nontheless. Of all of the different governments and factions on rifts Earth, who would have to team up to beat Atlantis in a fight?

I think the key members would have to be the nations orbiting Earth. Atlantis has the 2 or 3 powerful space ships so I assume the nations on Earth would require their help. Superiority in the air is a huge tactical advantage.

[cornholioprime]

Howdy, folks. This is purely hypothetical, but a question to ponder nontheless. Of all of the different governments and factions on rifts Earth, who would have to team up to beat Atlantis in a fight?

I think the key members would have to be the nations orbiting Earth. Atlantis has the 2 or 3 powerful space ships so I assume the nations on Earth would require their help. Superiority in the air is a huge tactical advantage.

Something else that you folks also have to keep in mind is that the Orbital Population is tiny, relative to the major forces on Rifts Earth; they won't make a fraction of a dent in Splynnie's forces before he rifts a few Kittani Fleets out to the moon to investigate, exterminate and subjugate (assuming that even they could get past the Counter Orbital Debris Field, which doesn't seem at all likely).

[cornholioprime]

Excuse my n00bishness, but what about if every single living creature, faction , alien intelligence etc on earth were to fight atlantis, and were somehow motivated to the same goal and could cooperate to eliminate atlantis?

All vampires, coalition, japan, warlords of russia, all d-bees, triax, shamans, lazlo, FOM, yama kings, yucatan supernaturals, south america tribes etc.

To all the people saying atlantis would annhilate all the "factions" what about against the entire planet united?

IF every single person could unite to go up against Splynncryth.....they'd likely win.

Against his small garrison force on Atlantis.

At which point he calls upon the resources of his previously captured worlds, Atlantis being the one thing. that canon says this particular Splugorth will fight to the death for
And to put things into perspective, even without magic to back them up the numbers of Kydians alone -warriors all -are more in number than the entire combined population of the entire planet. Throughout all time.

(Remember, the Kydians are deliberately allowed to over-populate throughout the dimensions, and are 100% happy as Megaversal cannon fodder. Those folks who think that Orcs and Goblins and Kobolds are a ravaging horde have obviously never heard of the Kydians... )

[gaby]

well thers the Naut'ull ther wait builing ther Power Base.
The Splugorth still think ther number is low,but thers 7 to 10 million of them.

I am doing a game where Archie3 have a spy Robot in sea,the robot see a Fight inbewteen Splugorth,s minions and Naut'ull,s ship,Archie3 is planing to make Robot copies of the Aliens and ther Ships to use agaist the Splugorth,his idea is to start a War where the Aliens will Wipe each other Out at Best.

[Vrykolas2k]

The Lord of the Deep could do it single-handedly. After all he has anice prophecy protecting him - a prophecy that the Splurgoth have no chance of fulfilling on their own and personally, if I were the Cosmo Knights or some other part of that prophecy, I'd rather let the Lord wipe out Atlantis than that the Lord down with Atlantis's help.
It might take him some time, but eventually the Lord would HAVE to win.

Actually, since Splynncryth is Anarchist and not evil, they'cd be more likely to help him than just sitting on their thumbs. In effect, they'd be using Splynncryth's resources to achieve good ends.
As for the "largest war machine ever built", maybe a Dominator needs to get involved... their ships are pretty large, after all...

[Astral_Explorer]

Largest Weapon ever built, Hmmm well there is that entire Dimension that is a machine in the Dimension Builder Book.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Excuse my n00bishness, but what about if every single living creature, faction , alien intelligence etc on earth were to fight atlantis, and were somehow motivated to the same goal and could cooperate to eliminate atlantis?

All vampires, coalition, japan, warlords of russia, all d-bees, triax, shamans, lazlo, FOM, yama kings, yucatan supernaturals, south america tribes etc.

To all the people saying atlantis would annhilate all the "factions" what about against the entire planet united?

IF every single person could unite to go up against Splynncryth.....they'd likely win.

Against his small garrison force on Atlantis.

At which point he calls upon the resources of his previously captured worlds, Atlantis being the one thing. that canon says this particular Splugorth will fight to the death for
And to put things into perspective, even without magic to back them up the numbers of Kydians alone -warriors all -are more in number than the entire combined population of the entire planet. Throughout all time.

(Remember, the Kydians are deliberately allowed to over-populate throughout the dimensions, and are 100% happy as Megaversal cannon fodder. Those folks who think that Orcs and Goblins and Kobolds are a ravaging horde have obviously never heard of the Kydians... )

yup Splynncryth is the only force on rifts earth who has access to outside forces.

[Astral_Explorer]

I have to disagree, Gods have worshippers from other worlds.
The Vampire intelligences have minions from other worlds they have conquored.
Nyxla has tons of his Xombie minions from places he has taken over.

So beings on Splyncryths par have access to outside forces, if you mean human nations no, not really unless you consider the Megaversal Legion and True Atlanteans.

Yes Splyncryth is a big bad, but there are others out there and from time to time you even see good AI's.

The one at Psyscape and possibly the Memory Tree's in South America.
WHile they don't have minions it shows there are some forces of good and not all Alien Intelligences are evil... just alien.

[cornholioprime]

Excuse my n00bishness, but what about if every single living creature, faction , alien intelligence etc on earth were to fight atlantis, and were somehow motivated to the same goal and could cooperate to eliminate atlantis?

All vampires, coalition, japan, warlords of russia, all d-bees, triax, shamans, lazlo, FOM, yama kings, yucatan supernaturals, south america tribes etc.

To all the people saying atlantis would annhilate all the "factions" what about against the entire planet united?

IF every single person could unite to go up against Splynncryth.....they'd likely win.

Against his small garrison force on Atlantis.

At which point he calls upon the resources of his previously captured worlds, Atlantis being the one thing. that canon says this particular Splugorth will fight to the death for
And to put things into perspective, even without magic to back them up the numbers of Kydians alone -warriors all -are more in number than the entire combined population of the entire planet. Throughout all time.

(Remember, the Kydians are deliberately allowed to over-populate throughout the dimensions, and are 100% happy as Megaversal cannon fodder. Those folks who think that Orcs and Goblins and Kobolds are a ravaging horde have obviously never heard of the Kydians... )

yup Splynncryth is the only force on rifts earth who has access to outside forces.

Not that many people on Rifts Earth have all that much access to forces from other worlds significant enough to stop JUST THIS ONE Splugorth......and remember that I have not for one moment even put into the picture the fact that fellow Splugorth, particularly the ones who visit Atlantis constantly, are very, very, very likely to send in reinforcements of their own in the extremely unlikely scenario that Earth can even muster enough numbers to be a threat to the Atlantis garrison -one must remember that Splugorth everywhere benefit from the commerce going on in the Splynn Market, not just Splynncryth.

When whole pantheons of Gods have to mutter under their breath and look the other way when a Splugorth walks by -pantheons with equal access to magic and tech as the AIs and each with hundreds of millions of devoted worshippers across the Megaverse in their own right -one starts to realize how truly small a place Rifts Earth is in the grand scheme of things.....and how foolish even entertaining the notion of trying to put a smack down on Atlantis is.

Kevin hasn't even written the Coalition to be that stupid, now or in the future.

[Subjugator]

I've often wondered if the belief that 'the largest war machine' is a single object, rather than an army. If you think about it, an army is nothing but an engine of war.



/Sub

[dark brandon]

Not that many people on Rifts Earth have all that much access to forces from other worlds significant enough to stop JUST THIS ONE Splugorth......and remember that I have not for one moment even put into the picture the fact that fellow Splugorth, particularly the ones who visit Atlantis constantly, are very, very, very likely to send in reinforcements of their own in the extremely unlikely scenario that Earth can even muster enough numbers to be a threat to the Atlantis garrison -one must remember that Splugorth everywhere benefit from the commerce going on in the Splynn Market, not just Splynncryth.

I doubt any of them would send reinforcements though. If anything they may lend quiet aid to the forces.

Fact is, splynn himself is not in any real danger, he can D-tele at will. If he loses atlantis, this is prime marketing spot for any other of the splugs to come in and re-take it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Excuse my n00bishness, but what about if every single living creature, faction , alien intelligence etc on earth were to fight atlantis, and were somehow motivated to the same goal and could cooperate to eliminate atlantis?

All vampires, coalition, japan, warlords of russia, all d-bees, triax, shamans, lazlo, FOM, yama kings, yucatan supernaturals, south america tribes etc.

To all the people saying atlantis would annhilate all the "factions" what about against the entire planet united?

IF every single person could unite to go up against Splynncryth.....they'd likely win.

Against his small garrison force on Atlantis.

At which point he calls upon the resources of his previously captured worlds, Atlantis being the one thing. that canon says this particular Splugorth will fight to the death for
And to put things into perspective, even without magic to back them up the numbers of Kydians alone -warriors all -are more in number than the entire combined population of the entire planet. Throughout all time.

(Remember, the Kydians are deliberately allowed to over-populate throughout the dimensions, and are 100% happy as Megaversal cannon fodder. Those folks who think that Orcs and Goblins and Kobolds are a ravaging horde have obviously never heard of the Kydians... )

yup Splynncryth is the only force on rifts earth who has access to outside forces.

Not that many people on Rifts Earth have all that much access to forces from other worlds significant enough to stop JUST THIS ONE Splugorth......and remember that I have not for one moment even put into the picture the fact that fellow Splugorth, particularly the ones who visit Atlantis constantly, are very, very, very likely to send in reinforcements of their own in the extremely unlikely scenario that Earth can even muster enough numbers to be a threat to the Atlantis garrison -one must remember that Splugorth everywhere benefit from the commerce going on in the Splynn Market, not just Splynncryth.

When whole pantheons of Gods have to mutter under their breath and look the other way when a Splugorth walks by -pantheons with equal access to magic and tech as the AIs and each with hundreds of millions of devoted worshippers across the Megaverse in their own right -one starts to realize how truly small a place Rifts Earth is in the grand scheme of things.....and how foolish even entertaining the notion of trying to put a smack down on Atlantis is.

Kevin hasn't even written the Coalition to be that stupid, now or in the future.

no he just writes humans to be that stupid

Xiticix threat shouldnt even be a threat more like a pest problem.

the space colonies, now if this isn't a bunch of clowns in space, we not going to try to retake our world, and help out our fellow human to better themselves, no it the oh no let leave those barbarians to face those creatures to the rifts and put up a ring of death and that is that. sure there are americans up in space and dont want to reclaim the homeland.

Somehow humans always get the short end of the stick in rpgs so why should rifts be any different.

[Qev]

My money is on a couple of guys in the orbital community with their run-down ion drive space tug. Find a nice unassuming three mile nickel-iron asteroid, give it a stylish carbon-black coating borrowed from a nearby chondrite rock, and give it a gentle nudge in the right direction. If they've got some financial support, maybe they could even give the thing some real stealth. Either way, nobody's likely to notice the thing.

Several years later, the sky over Atlantis lights up. Five seconds after this, Atlantis is an ocean of magma. Sure, it sucks for just about everyone else on Earth (especially the Atlantic coasts), but hey, can't make an omlette, and all that...

[Subjugator]

OK folks - considering that the Sploogies are willing to expend a few BILLION Kydians to take over a planet, there is nobody on earth that can take them out.

Naruni Enterprises could probably pull it off, but that's only if the other Sploogies didn't get pissed off and come in to help Splynn against their temerity.

/Sub

[cornholioprime]

I would think a Pantheon of Gods could at least remove the Sploogs from Atlantis, if they were so motivated. Especially the Pantheons with the stronger minions. I mean, just Zues and a few Hundred-Handed would be a royal pain, never mind if he brings the whole crew along with him.

And here's yet one more point where you the reader are given an inkling of powerful the Splugorth are.

The Olympian Pantheon just grits its teeth and shakes its head in impotent anger, knowing that they don't even have the strength to take on Atlantis (see Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse).

The Egyptian Pantheon -one of the most powerful in the entire Palladium Megaverse -has had its arse handed to it in the distant past, or was at least fought to a decisive standstill, so today that Pantheon has adopted a "look the other way and pretend there ain't no evil going on" approach where the Splugorth are concerned.

I don't recall if Odin even knows about the Sploogs; in any event, he's got one of the "weakest" Pantheons in the book and is currently more concerned with re-establishing himself in as a worshipped deity in Europe than anything else.

And the Hindu and Brahmic Pantheons -two whole separate pantheons that banded together -just had their own arses just handed to them not very long ago, and barely escaped with their lives.

Literally.

Sorry my friends, but when it comes to the Megaversal Pantheons, they won't come a-runnin' when you dial Cosmic 9-1-1......and even they won't be able to help you when you do.

[Subjugator]

Sorry my friends, but when it comes to the Megaversal Pantheons, they won't come a-runnin' when you dial Cosmic 9-1-1......and even they won't be able to help you when you do.

Cosmo Knights will...and have succeeded where others have failed.

/Sub

[asajosh]

Sorry my friends, but when it comes to the Megaversal Pantheons, they won't come a-runnin' when you dial Cosmic 9-1-1......and even they won't be able to help you when you do.

Cosmo Knights will...and have succeeded where others have failed.

/Sub

Cosmo-Knights would get eaten up by Atlanteans and their magic. It'd be a good fight, but ultimately the Splyncryth's armies would overwhelm, in my opinion.

[Subjugator]

Cosmo-Knights would get eaten up by Atlanteans and their magic. It'd be a good fight, but ultimately the Splyncryth's armies would overwhelm, in my opinion.

It's canon that Cosmo-Knights were able to take down...what...three (?) Splewgies...in the Three Galaxies.

/Sub

[Astral_Explorer]

Again don't fight the armies of Atlantis. Splyncryth and other Splugorth manufacture their own doom. A Soul Drinking Rune Weapon and a quick thrust would change the dynamic in Atlantis quickly.

Yes he has many bonuses to resist but you know what players roll 1's sometimes too often for their own health and Splyncryth might have a bad day too.

Yes Splyncryth has psionics as do many minions yet we see how usefull psychic warning is constantly throughout the Rifts books.
To be honest Splynncryth probablly has mind block up most times just so he doesn't get constant warning bells of impending doom.

In all honesty I would be surprised if the Sunaj don't have a plan to do him or others in should it become necessary and they are not stupid enough to fight through his thousands of mdc. Just a poke with the right weapon and he falls, his Highlords lose power and the Kydians etc are shaken because they see their undefeatable God Slain.

Psychological impact on those with a minion mentality is a huge thing.

If the Cosmo Knights came in it would be the same thing, they wouldnt waist time fighting through armies of minions.

Gods also would most likely use the strike at the head to make the tentacles fall aproach. Some pantheons can make their own rune weapons and this includes Odin. The Asgaurdian Dwarves still have that magic knowledge.

As to the Splugorth being unstoppable well their are some who have had to flee their multi planet empires before. Just like anyone else they are not undefeatable.

Wothan is 1 example of a SPlugorth on the run, heck he only has a handfull of minions and one, a Goqua is only their for the laughs.

Any attack on Atlantis would not be a situation of line up boys and mow eachother down, that kind of fighting vanished years ago.
Militiary intelligence, subterfuge and striking strategic targets.

Do the Gods shy away from attacking Atlantis yes, why ? It doesn't hamper them at all. Now if Splyncryth did chose to attack Asguard or a stronghold of some Pantheon I do not see any Pantheon rolling over and playing dead.

Hecate stole from the Splugorth and indeed has some in service to her. She is not in a situation of quaking in her boots.

As to attacks on Atlantis well through the geneva convention out the window. Expect nerve gas, genetic diseases Courtesy of Lonestar, and any number of things designed to hurt many without giving away who the attacker is.

Archie Three knows this and you can see how he go's about his war with Atlantis. It is not a situation of throwing robots against the Atlantis hordes.

Remember also their are things like the Psymbiotes and other forces that can be right in Atlantis unknown moving about and carrying out tasks without alerting the upper management.

The fact that Atlantis let's in all kinds of visitors from all over is another means for getting in as long as you look, or could be made to look monstrous enough.

If you want to think of a battle as wittling away at eachothers mdc then yes Atlantis has many forces to throw around and isn't concerned with the loss of even a million or more minions. Heck this is the way the Mechanoids operate they just have sheer numbers, but even they use tactics.

Splyncryth plays things smart, he sends his minions to attack in area's that do not posses strong Kingdoms or many defenders. He builds power in area's of the World not allready claimed. He has dummy operations with hidden connections to him. He supplies others with weapons, technology etc so he can later call in a favor.

He is one of the smarter Alien Intelligences because of this infact to be honest he is probably one of the least Alien when it comes to the way he thinks he is downright human. An evil CEO with Godlike powers.

Pantheons have an advantage in that they can understand the way he thinks, most pantheons are downright human in thought also.

If he wanted Rifts earth he could take it certainly, could he hold it, I don't believe so. Too many forces would oppose him in such an attempt.
Some of them evil forces with their own designs.

[Colt47]

If Splynn was smart, he wouldn't have put his kingdom on a landmass that could disappear into the ocean whenever it's cut off from magic. That's the big weakness to Atlantis.

[Subjugator]

Yeah, it's also canon that Sploogies make the Gods walk in fear, apparently.

Writer's fiat can be a be illogical. It seems pretty clear they wanted the Pantheons to be very powerfull, but very optional in the Megaverse. So they've got all this stuff...but are written as stupidly as Stormtroopers from Episode 4.

Supposedly the only thing the Sploogs fear is elder Dragons. Given Dragons actual stats, and their general unwillingness to work together, I find that a bizarre piece of canon as well.

I thought it was only that they respect and may fear elder dragons. All they would need is a reason to band together that was stronger than their reason to stay apart, and they'd be pretty powerful. I imagine that it's the overall numbers of dragons that really give them concern. If someone started nailing dragons left and right, they might get together to kill that one being or race of beings.

In the case of the Cosmo Knights, I imagine it was more than one, five, or even fifty of 'em, and they were more than likely backed up by more than one, five, or fifty million others. That's my assumption anyway.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Whatever race killed the Dominators could have killed Splynncryth. I mean, a Black Hole Projector (*shudder*) would be pretty well overkill for just about anything.

Hm. Could it kill a Mulka?

/Sub

[AllMightyRCB]

What's to stop a high level magic user (that is willing to sacrifice himself), from using Ensorcel/deathword? Or Emperor Prosek from blanketing Atlantis with Nukes (it actually mentioned that in an older book).

[Subjugator]

What's to stop a high level magic user (that is willing to sacrifice himself), from using Ensorcel/deathword? Or Emperor Prosek from blanketing Atlantis with Nukes (it actually mentioned that in an older book).

It's mentioned that he's got them pointed there - not whether or not such would be successful. Splynncryth has experienced technology before, and Phase World and NE are not unknown to him.

I don't know about Ensorcel/Deathword - what book is it in?

The soul drinking rune weapon would be a really poor way to allow someone like him to die. It's cheap and smacks of munchkinism. If you are ever going to kill an alien intelligence with a good game master, it'll take more than a simple strike and a die roll. It would require war...BIG war...with bombs, nukes, espionage, magic dampeners, missiles, plagues, traps, and horrible stuff that I cannot even think of right now.

Now - what would be interesting is a fight between the Lord of the Deep and that Frog thing in Australia. The LotD needs water, and Mr. Frogs takes it all - they're natural combatants, and are both very powerful.

Splynn likes chaos and fun, so he might instigate it. Get them both PO'd at him by pointing out the source of it, and he might be forced to leave this place.

/Sub

[AllMightyRCB]

Ensorcel/Deathword was in the original version of Federation of magic, back when it was printed WITH the spells, not forcing people buying newer books to purchase BOM. Anyways, Ensorcel has -3 to save vs magic (so that is 15 to 19 to save depending on magic user spell power). Then the victim can no longer save against any magic cast by the Ensorcel caster. Hence the deathword spell. Granted Splyncrith has to roll low, but it is possible. I have a character that I used 9 years ago. I used Ensorcel/deathword, and killed an adult dragon. Luckily though, the gm rolled a 2 to save, otherwise if it would have saved, my PC would have been real dead real quick.

[Astral_Explorer]

It is no more munchkin then using MD weapons against SDC beings.
It is a valid option and the fact Splyncryth himself manufactures these weapons certainly puts it into the realm of karmic justice.

They are a valid part of the world and a resource that exist and no more munchkin then using nukes or large scale warfare.

Assasination is part of warfare too.

One could stupidly attack him with weapons that will take half a day to really hurt him, or one could use a weapon meant for the task, Splyncryth certainly has no problem supplying minions with rune weapons or them using them on others, so what is the problem with someone using such on him ?

Especially since Gods, and many multi-dimensional beings could possibly though rare have access to such things.

I am not thinking let's make a movie with lots of explosions and cgi millions on a battle field, I was just presenting an intelligent scenario for a strike on Atlantis.

He powers his High Lords with his fall Atlantis as a whole is weakened, it is an intelligent and calculated strike as opposed to line up and gun eachother down scenario's.

Remember in Lord of the Rings, the wars were mere fluff and mattered little. Sauron too manufactured his own doom in the form of the Ring.
It was the simple act of tossing the ring into Mount Doom, not flashy but that was the single act that ultimatly mattered.

Was it cheap, was it munchkin ? Upto each person to decide.

[Subjugator]

Ensorcel/Deathword was in the original version of Federation of magic, back when it was printed WITH the spells, not forcing people buying newer books to purchase BOM. Anyways, Ensorcel has -3 to save vs magic (so that is 15 to 19 to save depending on magic user spell power). Then the victim can no longer save against any magic cast by the Ensorcel caster. Hence the deathword spell. Granted Splyncrith has to roll low, but it is possible. I have a character that I used 9 years ago. I used Ensorcel/deathword, and killed an adult dragon. Luckily though, the gm rolled a 2 to save, otherwise if it would have saved, my PC would have been real dead real quick.

I'd not have allowed it with an adult dragon. Some things can be overcome by simple power.

/Sub

[AllMightyRCB]

Ensorcel/Deathword was in the original version of Federation of magic, back when it was printed WITH the spells, not forcing people buying newer books to purchase BOM. Anyways, Ensorcel has -3 to save vs magic (so that is 15 to 19 to save depending on magic user spell power). Then the victim can no longer save against any magic cast by the Ensorcel caster. Hence the deathword spell. Granted Splyncrith has to roll low, but it is possible. I have a character that I used 9 years ago. I used Ensorcel/deathword, and killed an adult dragon. Luckily though, the gm rolled a 2 to save, otherwise if it would have saved, my PC would have been real dead real quick.

I'd not have allowed it with an adult dragon. Some things can be overcome by simple power.

/Sub

So you mean that you would have deliberately cheated just so the adult dragon would live? The GM put it in there, it ain't my fault that I got luckey. But at least the GM ran it legitly and didn't cheat.

[Talavar]

I think Splugorth somewhat fear adult & ancient dragons because dragons are pretty powerful, but also pretty common in the grand scheme of things. If you added up all of the dragons in the megaverse, and could actually get some or most of them to work together, they'd be running the place.

Similar with Cosmo-knights: I'd imagine that it would take a huge number of them working together to take down a Splugorth empire, but there are lots of them, and they're each pretty powerful.

As to ensorcel/death word, well, you've got 470 ppe to spend in one fight? That and well, death word is unlikely to kill a Splugorth from the ensuing coma a failed/worked-around save vs. magic brings on. It would still be pretty effective if you could pull it off.

The soul-drinking rune sword idea is workable, but it's for reasons like this that soul-drinking basically doesn't exist in my Rifts games. Also, you could argue that it's going to take a lot of cuts before a creature with 50,000 MDC actually bleeds from one of them. Hit for 20 MDC? That's just a scratch.

[sHaka]

Ensorcel/Deathword was in the original version of Federation of magic, back when it was printed WITH the spells, not forcing people buying newer books to purchase BOM. Anyways, Ensorcel has -3 to save vs magic (so that is 15 to 19 to save depending on magic user spell power). Then the victim can no longer save against any magic cast by the Ensorcel caster. Hence the deathword spell. Granted Splyncrith has to roll low, but it is possible. I have a character that I used 9 years ago. I used Ensorcel/deathword, and killed an adult dragon. Luckily though, the gm rolled a 2 to save, otherwise if it would have saved, my PC would have been real dead real quick.

I'd not have allowed it with an adult dragon. Some things can be overcome by simple power.

/Sub

So you mean that you would have deliberately cheated just so the adult dragon would live? The GM put it in there, it ain't my fault that I got luckey. But at least the GM ran it legitly and didn't cheat.

GMs can't cheat, by definition.

[Astral_Explorer]

Tries not to erupt into laughter at that one.

They certainly can and from my experience do, they just have no one to call them on the carpet about it.

Imagine a player saying the same thing, I make my save simply because it makes the battle that much more interesting. It wouldn't fly.

You can call it what you like but if the GM and players all agree on the rules it is pretty cheap to bend them simply becuase you wish too.

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen and you can call it something other then cheating if it makes you feel good about it.

Call it dramatic license, call it GM perogative, or any number of things.

Your players though will see it for what it is, and if they know you are doing it expect them to react accordingly, such as leave the game for one in which the GM plays the same rules they are expected too.

It's one of the reasons I like Nobilis the Players and GM come up with a game contract to insure the above situation doesn't happen unless all agree to allow for such to occur.

It's a matter of mutual respect since everyone gathers to have a good time, not to be part of a book or story they have no real chance to change. A GM can run a game, but if you dont want the players messing up your plot line then write a book where all your characters will do what you define for them.

Yes GM's run the games, So do Casino's.
Is it ok for Casino's to cheat ? I suppose they could say Casino Perrogative but then again if they started losing customers because of it, it wouldn't be too surprising.

[Subjugator]

It is no more munchkin then using MD weapons against SDC beings.

The difference is cataclysmic. It is more akin to bringing MD weapons and power armor into an otherwise purely SDC setting.

Splynncryth is supposed to be akin to a deity (and is more powerful than the vast majority of those). Single strikes of relatively generic weapons do not kill deities. Maybe...MAYBE...if a weapon of similar power was constructed with the SOLE INTENT of killing that ONE Splugorth (Splewgorth for those in the know...hehe), then it'd have such a chance of working...otherwise, heck no.

Yes, the rules say it would work. I'm saying the rules should be suspended in such cases...and I bet Kev would agree with me on this. You're taking something that is relatively common (in the scheme of Rifts Earth and Phase World/The Three Galaxies, about as common as a 747 is today - few people own them, but they can be found and are not unheard of) and making it so that it can demolish something that is capable of taking over several planets at a time.

It is a valid option and the fact Splyncryth himself manufactures these weapons certainly puts it into the realm of karmic justice.

It is a valid munchy option.

They are a valid part of the world and a resource that exist and no more munchkin then using nukes or large scale warfare.

Even a full blown nuke cannot kill a Splugorth in a single shot. Not *ever*.

BTW - if this were possible, then The Lord of the Deep would be able to be killed by someone hitting one of his tentacles with a soul drinker sword.

Assasination is part of warfare too.

Tell ya what, go get an assassin's pistol and try and take out an M1 Abrams . See how far you get. They work just fine within the scope of their design, but it's far beyond the scope of their functionality to expect them to accomplish what you seek.

One could stupidly attack him with weapons that will take half a day to really hurt him, or one could use a weapon meant for the task, Splyncryth certainly has no problem supplying minions with rune weapons or them using them on others, so what is the problem with someone using such on him?

The problem with using such a thing against him is that it already would have been done.

Especially since Gods, and many multi-dimensional beings could possibly though rare have access to such things.

I am not thinking let's make a movie with lots of explosions and cgi millions on a battle field, I was just presenting an intelligent scenario for a strike on Atlantis.

He powers his High Lords with his fall Atlantis as a whole is weakened, it is an intelligent and calculated strike as opposed to line up and gun eachother down scenario's.

Remember in Lord of the Rings, the wars were mere fluff and mattered little. Sauron too manufactured his own doom in the form of the Ring.
It was the simple act of tossing the ring into Mount Doom, not flashy but that was the single act that ultimatly mattered.

Was it cheap, was it munchkin ? Upto each person to decide.

Cheap and munchkin?

No. Not at all.

The reason that wasn't cheap and munchkin is because it wasn't destroying a magic ring that killed Sauron. It wasn't even destroying an incredibly rare and powerful magic ring. It was destroying a particular magic ring...in fact, it was The Magic Ring. The *One Ring*. The Ring that had, in fact, been infused with a significant portion of Sauron's very essence.

Not only that, but it had to be destroyed in a singular place, and by its very nature was almost impossible to destroy...not just because of its magical durability, but because of its corrupting influence and the increased strength of its corrupting influence when actually at Mount Doom. The only reason it was able to be destroyed is not because Frodo was so tough but because Gollum fell after taking it. Frodo was not strong enough to destroy it - I seriously doubt that anyone would be strong enough to have done so voluntarily.

/Sub

[Vrykolas2k]

It is no more munchkin then using MD weapons against SDC beings.
It is a valid option and the fact Splyncryth himself manufactures these weapons certainly puts it into the realm of karmic justice.

They are a valid part of the world and a resource that exist and no more munchkin then using nukes or large scale warfare.

Assasination is part of warfare too.

One could stupidly attack him with weapons that will take half a day to really hurt him, or one could use a weapon meant for the task, Splyncryth certainly has no problem supplying minions with rune weapons or them using them on others, so what is the problem with someone using such on him ?

Especially since Gods, and many multi-dimensional beings could possibly though rare have access to such things.

I am not thinking let's make a movie with lots of explosions and cgi millions on a battle field, I was just presenting an intelligent scenario for a strike on Atlantis.

He powers his High Lords with his fall Atlantis as a whole is weakened, it is an intelligent and calculated strike as opposed to line up and gun eachother down scenario's.

Remember in Lord of the Rings, the wars were mere fluff and mattered little. Sauron too manufactured his own doom in the form of the Ring.
It was the simple act of tossing the ring into Mount Doom, not flashy but that was the single act that ultimatly mattered.

Was it cheap, was it munchkin ? Upto each person to decide.

Except gods and alien intelligences are immune to such attacks...

[Subjugator]

Except gods and alien intelligences are immune to such attacks...

Does it actually say that somewhere? I'm pretty sure Kev would reject the idea, but I didn't know it's been explicitly stated anywhere.

-Dennis

[Astral_Explorer]

I would post further but realize we are going off topic.

Your statement of a rifle versus an Abrams is an example of using the wrong weapon vs the wrong enemy. You use the right weapon versus the right enemy, especially with assasination, Do you honestly think a real world person would try what you posted. No they would use a weapon capable of taking out a tank.

Why hasn't anyone done it ? Simple, how many leaders in our world do people want to kill and just dont do it ? Thats without our real world leaders being MDC.
Just because something can be done doesn't mean people do it.

If in your games you wish to go outside the rules to make NPC's untouchable by the rules then it is your option to do so.
If any GM wishes to do that, that is fine but then state to your players ahead of time that you will bend and break the rules in regards to certain pet NPC's to keep them around.

If your players are ok with that then thats fine.

This thread was about any force being able to take on Atlantis, I simply suggested one means and under the rules a valid one.

Change the rules or ignore them and of course the answer to the post topic will be different.

I am sure Splyncryth has no problem sending assasins, heck the Sunaj are tailored made for him to do so. He has no problem with overkill or using much more powerfull forces against weaker ones.

If you protect him with GM fiat or make a new rule setting him above the rules I am sure others would think that was munchkin.

GM's can be Munchkin too.

I see the problem escalating if you protect one NPC just because you like, then what is to stop in protecting other NPC's. A GM can easily bend the rules in each encounter with each NPC if they want to.

Thats like playing in a video game where the opponent is allowed to enter the game with a few codes to make them invulnerable, get more attacks etc. Most people like to play in games where they can actually do something, take that away then what is the point.

In Regards to the other, Sauron still made The Ring, he manufactured his own doom, and no one thought it was a cheap kill when the ring just melted away.

Sure it could have done nothing. It could have just sat there on the lava and not had any effect at all.

Would the readers or movie watchers have felt cheated, most likely.

Would people have loved to see another big CGI battle, possibly a showdown with the Big Bad Sauron, yeah would have looked sweet.

We didnt see the author decide to ignore the rules for the universe he had created just for a good battle scene. No he had the ring in there as a vulnerability to a near unstoppable foe. He didn't make us feel cheated by taking that vulnerability he established away.

Rune Weapons often have Demon Lords and Major Elementals in them, I don't see anyone saying "Wait Stop these guys need protection from being thrown into such things." For they certainly are on a par with the Splugorth.

When someone has a cool PC it doesn't matter if they are a Godling or a Goblin Vagabond it is always sad to lose a character. Regardless of how cool or special they might be, they dont expect the game rules to be changed to keep them alive. So I would expect them to feel cheated
if an NPC was held above them.

Back on topic: If Splynncryth is protected by a GM then no force on Earth or the three galaxies or beyond can have any effect.

Likewise if a GM wants to replace him or give people a fighting chance then it is possible to tackle Atlantis.

It ultimately falls into the GM's hands what is possible and what is not.

[Subjugator]

Your statement of a rifle versus an Abrams is an example of using the wrong weapon vs the wrong enemy. You use the right weapon versus the right enemy, especially with assasination, Do you honestly think a real world person would try what you posted. No they would use a weapon capable of taking out a tank.

...and my point is that a rune weapon is not capable of a 1 hit kill against a tank. If you want to take it further, we'll call it a cutting torch or high speed carbide saw against a tank. They can damage it...over time...but they won't be enough to nail it all at once.

Why hasn't anyone done it ? Simple, how many leaders in our world do people want to kill and just dont do it ? Thats without our real world leaders being MDC.
Just because something can be done doesn't mean people do it.

Our real world example doesn't have people that can freely manipulate time and space at their whim.

If in your games you wish to go outside the rules to make NPC's untouchable by the rules then it is your option to do so.

As I said, I believe Kev would agree with me. This is munchkinism in its purest form. Maybe Maryann could ring in on this...as she's the one who pointed out that Impervious to Energy would be overwhelmed by the SDF3 main cannon. It's the same idea - this is overwhelming power that is being challenged, and the simple soul drinker rune weapon won't cut it.

If any GM wishes to do that, that is fine but then state to your players ahead of time that you will bend and break the rules in regards to certain pet NPC's to keep them around.

Yeah - it's certain pet NPCs...and I'm being entirely unreasonable. How crazy of me to think that beings with well over 100,000 M.D.C. would not be instantly killed by a single hit by a comparatively minor weapon.

If your players are ok with that then thats fine.

This thread was about any force being able to take on Atlantis, I simply suggested one means and under the rules a valid one.

Someone else has stated that the rules exclude them from it. I'm waiting for the source on that though, as I don't remember seeing it.

Change the rules or ignore them and of course the answer to the post topic will be different.

I agree that according to the rules as written that I've seen, it is perfectly possible to kill ANYTHING with a soul drinker, with the possible exception of a scarecrow and a Mulka. With that said; I'm thinking an official ruling from the writers would say otherwise.

I am sure Splyncryth has no problem sending assasins, heck the Sunaj are tailored made for him to do so. He has no problem with overkill or using much more powerfull forces against weaker ones.

Correct. In this case though, the rune weapon would be underkill.

If you protect him with GM fiat or make a new rule setting him above the rules I am sure others would think that was munchkin.

Yeah - it's munchy to make it so that godlike NPCs cannot be killed by a first level character swinging a sword and getting in a lucky shot. It's not munchy at ALL to want to kill some godlike NPC who is fully intended to be nigh on unkillable in a single shot with a comparatively minor weapon.

GM's can be Munchkin too.

I agree. When they make the players superpowerful, they're absolutely being munchy. They're also being munchy if they pit the characters directly against beings that require such amazing power.

I see the problem escalating if you protect one NPC just because you like, then what is to stop in protecting other NPC's. A GM can easily bend the rules in each encounter with each NPC if they want to.

1. The rules should fit the game. You should not modify the game to fit the rules. If the story needs a rule changed to fit it, then change the rule as is appropriate.
2. Protecting a godlike being from an instakill is not some overwhelmingly abusive behavior. I'm not talking about making it so that the goblin messenger that is met in the street cannot be killed by any force known to man. I'm not even saying that the splugorth cannot be killed. What I am saying is that the splugorth cannot be killed in one hit by a common rune weapon that drinks souls.

Thats like playing in a video game where the opponent is allowed to enter the game with a few codes to make them invulnerable, get more attacks etc. Most people like to play in games where they can actually do something, take that away then what is the point.

If you are going directly against a splugorth in a toe to toe fight, you and your GM are munchy far past anything I'd ever allow.

In Regards to the other, Sauron still made The Ring, he manufactured his own doom, and no one thought it was a cheap kill when the ring just melted away.

Again - it wasn't just *A* ring that was destroyed though. It was THE ring. There was precisely ONE ring that could do it. It wasn't casually destroyed - the most powerful among mortal men lacked the willpower to initiate its destruction. Its corrupting influence prevented it. They also had to sneak and fight and run from armies and powers beyond the ken of normal folks. This is in addition to fighting its corruption the while way, starving, suffering abuse, fighting Shelob, and praying to Eru Ilúvatar the whole way. Not only that, but they had to FIND the ring in the first place. That was a quest unto itself for Gandalf. This is not to mention Moria, Fangorn, the fights with Saruman, and everything else besides.

Sure it could have done nothing. It could have just sat there on the lava and not had any effect at all.

Would the readers or movie watchers have felt cheated, most likely.

Would people have loved to see another big CGI battle, possibly a showdown with the Big Bad Sauron, yeah would have looked sweet.

We didnt see the author decide to ignore the rules for the universe he had created just for a good battle scene. No he had the ring in there as a vulnerability to a near unstoppable foe. He didn't make us feel cheated by taking that vulnerability he established away.

Correct, but what he didn't do was have thousands to millions of rings out there for people to find that were easy ways to kill the unstoppable foe. He didn't have it so that any one of those millions of rings would kill this foe. He didn't have it so that you could teleport to your destination and step out of time to commit the attack and virtually guarantee the foe's death in a single hit. He didn't have it so that ten thousand people could attack at the same time, virtually guaranteeing that it would work.

Rune Weapons often have Demon Lords and Major Elementals in them, I don't see anyone saying "Wait Stop these guys need protection from being thrown into such things." For they certainly are on a par with the Splugorth.

Where'd you see the major elementals and demon lords mentioned? I saw the souls of human beings.

Also, most demon lords and major elementals are NOT on par with the splugorth. The sploogs are at least an order of magnitude (or so) more powerful than the biggest of elementals - at least the ones as summoned by a warlock.

When someone has a cool PC it doesn't matter if they are a Godling or a Goblin Vagabond it is always sad to lose a character. Regardless of how cool or special they might be, they dont expect the game rules to be changed to keep them alive. So I would expect them to feel cheated if an NPC was held above them.

This isn't a matter of coolness factor. This is a matter of relative power. Gods and intelligences are not subject to death magic or there'd be a damned lot fewer of them around.

Back on topic: If Splynncryth is protected by a GM then no force on Earth or the three galaxies or beyond can have any effect.

This isn't some asinine GM fiat protection. You want to munch him into a single hit kill, which is totally unreasonable.

Likewise if a GM wants to replace him or give people a fighting chance then it is possible to tackle Atlantis.

Attacking Atlantis as a whole with a group of five PCs (or the like) would require either a munchy GM, munchy PCs, or insane PCs.

It ultimately falls into the GM's hands what is possible and what is not.

*sigh*

/Sub

[Astral_Explorer]

I am pretty sure that your right, I can see another special case being made for the Splugorth and other beings.

It wouldn't surprise me if you get that ruling and any GM is allowed to rule that way certainly.

There are many, many special cases and I can see yet another one being made.

Special cases become more common though everytime I see one.

I didn't post to get in an argument just to offer an option under the rules that would work in regards to the topic.

It ultimatly falls on the GM as to whether Atlantis can be attacked or turned into an unstoppable, unbeatable force.

A GM can always make a special case as you have said you would.

You might even get that special ruling from Palladium then you have no worries.

You thought it was cheap for someone to stab Splynncryth with a rune weapon and cause his fall. Would you feel that way if an NPC with one killed a PC ?

Players Characters are often given another standard then the NPC's have to deal with. It's not something new, just something that happens with regularity.

I didnt say you had to let this occur in your game, you can be upfront and tell your players that certain NPC's will be playing by different rules.
If your players are all ok with it, then your good to go.

I will say most players like to think the NPC's need to play by the same rules though it creates a sense of fairness.

In games that use the current rules it is an option for the thread topic.
If a special case is made or some rule exists somewhere exempting him from the same type harm he inflicts on others then it does not become an option.

[Kelorin]

I'm trying to remember, is there currently any kind of savings throw vs. soul drinking weapons, or any kind of stipulation that the soul drinker must strike a killing blow?

Which incidentally is the way I think I would rule against something like a Splugorth. Can it drink souls? Sure. It can drink the souls of any creature it kills. Since no soul drinker currently in existence can kill a sploog in a single hit, no soul drinker can insta-kill a sploog either. However, if after an extended battle with one, bringing to bear all manner of spells of might and weapons of destruction, if the final killing blow was made with a soul drinker, sure I would consider the soul drunk.

What is the point you ask? Why bother striking the final blow with a soul drinker if you still have to whittle the beast down first? It means the sploog, VI, YAAI or whatever is consumed and dead. Not banished for 10,000 years, not able re-manifest somewhere else. Dead and truly gone.

Just my .02 credits.

[Vrykolas2k]

Except gods and alien intelligences are immune to such attacks...

Does it actually say that somewhere? I'm pretty sure Kev would reject the idea, but I didn't know it's been explicitly stated anywhere.

-Dennis

I am looking desperately through my numerous books lol, I thought I'd read it it "Dragons & Gods", but the passage has so far eluded me...

[Astral_Explorer]

You might indeed find it there as I don't own the book since it seemed aimed at PF not Rifts.

If you do then it should make certain parties happy.

[Vrykolas2k]

I'm trying to remember, is there currently any kind of savings throw vs. soul drinking weapons, or any kind of stipulation that the soul drinker must strike a killing blow?

Which incidentally is the way I think I would rule against something like a Splugorth. Can it drink souls? Sure. It can drink the souls of any creature it kills. Since no soul drinker currently in existence can kill a sploog in a single hit, no soul drinker can insta-kill a sploog either. However, if after an extended battle with one, bringing to bear all manner of spells of might and weapons of destruction, if the final killing blow was made with a soul drinker, sure I would consider the soul drunk.

What is the point you ask? Why bother striking the final blow with a soul drinker if you still have to whittle the beast down first? It means the sploog, VI, YAAI or whatever is consumed and dead. Not banished for 10,000 years, not able re-manifest somewhere else. Dead and truly gone.

Just my .02 credits.

Save vs Magic at 14+, it just needs to draw blood. If the save is made, it only inflicts double damage... which is what a deity or supernatural intelligence would take, just need to find that infernal passage so I can quote it. Grrrr....

[Subjugator]

You might even get that special ruling from Palladium then you have no worries.

I'm not sure it'd be a special ruling. I think it'd just be a ruling.

You thought it was cheap for someone to stab Splynncryth with a rune weapon and cause his fall. Would you feel that way if an NPC with one killed a PC ?

Unless the PC was profoundly stupid and basically asked for it, yes.

A good GM does not kill a PC unless the PC either needs or intends for it to happen.

I didnt say you had to let this occur in your game, you can be upfront and tell your players that certain NPC's will be playing by different rules. If your players are all ok with it, then your good to go.

You were saying or at the very least implying that it would be munchy for me to not let a PC kill something like Splynncryth or Zeus using a soul drinking rune sword.

I will say most players like to think the NPC's need to play by the same rules though it creates a sense of fairness.

Most NPCs do follow those rules. Some, like Dunscon, adult+ dragons, deities, and the like, do not.

In games that use the current rules it is an option for the thread topic. If a special case is made or some rule exists somewhere exempting him from the same type harm he inflicts on others then it does not become an option.

I'm going to have to find this now.

*hunts through D&G*

/Sub

[DhAkael]

One word;
'Dominator'
'Nuff said

[Subjugator]

So you mean that you would have deliberately cheated just so the adult dragon would live? The GM put it in there, it ain't my fault that I got luckey. But at least the GM ran it legitly and didn't cheat.

No, I would not 'cheat' just so the adult dragon could live. The ruling would have taken place before the decision took place. In much the same way an SDC weapon will not hurt an MDC creature, such magic will not kill an alien intelligence level creature.

/Sub