Big Bang Theory

[MrMom]

Could anything survive the Collaspe and Rebirth of the Universe. Includeing the Old Ones.

[Marrowlight]

Galactus did ok with it.

[Lukterran]

A Rune Status, perhaps?

[asajosh]

just me

[Rallan]

Could anything survive the Collaspe and Rebirth of the Universe. Includeing the Old Ones.

The laws of physics say "probably not", since the first few moments after the Big Bang (and presumably, the last few moments before a hypothetical "big crunch" implosion) weren't a very nice place to live. Everything was so densely packed and so overloaded with energy that matter in any traditional sense of the word wasn't capable of existing, and the entire universe was just a homogenous sea of extremely energized fundamental particles at ludicrous temperatures.

So if you want to have something in the game that's older than the physical universe, the only handwaving that'll do the job properly is to say that he either existed outside of space and time, or that he was a being of mystical energy without a physical body and who managed to hold his essence together during the Big Crunch/Bang through sheer psychic force of will. Or alternatively he could just lie low in another universe while this one starts over, I mean it's not like this is the only universe in the Rifts setting or anything

[Lukterran]

An Old One would definitely survive "a universe crunch,"

A. They are probably immune to any damage that would be sustained.
B. Just dimensionally teleport out. Then there is no threat of being killed.
C. Most likely has a spell or magic knowledge to completely stop or
reverse the effects of the "crunch".
D. Like gods which are ultimately just an organized batch of P.P.E. (per.
pg 85 D&G book), Old Ones too are more than likely psychic & magic
energy manifested in a physical form. If they were to get caught up in
the "crunch" and sustain damage, they would probably become
complete energy then reform afterwards.

[asajosh]

Any being in one dimension wil be totally unaffected by a universe collapsing in another dimension.

[jade von delioch]

Could anything survive the Collaspe and Rebirth of the Universe. Includeing the Old Ones.

The laws of physics say "probably not", since the first few moments after the Big Bang (and presumably, the last few moments before a hypothetical "big crunch" implosion) weren't a very nice place to live. Everything was so densely packed and so overloaded with energy that matter in any traditional sense of the word wasn't capable of existing, and the entire universe was just a homogenous sea of extremely energized fundamental particles at ludicrous temperatures.

that sounds like it would be in the range of a couple billion MDC worth of damage to me. probably reads like the main weapon on the SDF.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The infenent being that started it all would survive.

[jade von delioch]

true

[drewkitty ~..~]

The infenent being that started it all would survive.

You assume there is one.

If there is no cause then then would be nothing, and only an infenent casue could start everything w/o needing a cause itself.

[Qev]

I imagine it depends on what your definition of 'universe' is, and what the capabilities of things like the Old Ones actually are.

If it's just 'our local universe' undergoing collapse, then things like rifting out or dimensional teleport work just fine as an escape hatch. If you consider the universe to be the entire multiverse... well, then that could be a problem for some folks.

I daresay nothing inside a collapsing/big-banging (is that a word?) is likely to survive, considering the laws of physics and even the dimensions that make up space and time cease to be at the point where a singularity is reached (that bit always breaks my head when I think about it too hard).

[Lukterran]

The infenent being that started it all would survive.

You assume there is one.

If there is no cause then then would be nothing, and only an infenent casue could start everything w/o needing a cause itself.

Now we're going to go in a circle that has no logical merit. Besides which, in canon, the biggest entities are the Old Ones and possibly the Forge. None of which are ever credited with creating the Megaverse.

Perhaps not the megaverse, but they did create the Palladium Universe.

[Qev]

I would agree, except that doesn't take into account magic.

I usually consider magic to be a natural part of the universe it's in, but opinions differ.

[Lukterran]

Does the text state that? I'm not talking the Tristine Chronicles either. I realize they are credited with most of the species in Palladia now, but is the canon reference specific that the Old Ones created the Palladium universe?

Well, there are parts of the Tristine Chronicles that have more flavor. Yes it kind of does say it, or at least implies it a little. (Main Book pg. 277) Under Age of Chaos.

"The Old Ones ar credited with creating the Palladium World, and some would give them credit for the entire universe."

[Lukterran]

It isn't going to state it point blank, because Kevin wants the individual GM to determine that for themselves.

Kind of like if you ask him what is behind the wall at the edge of the world. He will give you a smile, and a non-answer of "What do you think is behind it?"

However, to suggest the possiblity that the Old Ones are able to create the universe implies that they are at least somewhat capable (there is a possiblity) of them doing it.

[Rallan]

An Old One would definitely survive "a universe crunch,"

A. They are probably immune to any damage that would be sustained.
B. Just dimensionally teleport out. Then there is no threat of being killed.
C. Most likely has a spell or magic knowledge to completely stop or
reverse the effects of the "crunch".
D. Like gods which are ultimately just an organized batch of P.P.E. (per.
pg 85 D&G book), Old Ones too are more than likely psychic & magic
energy manifested in a physical form. If they were to get caught up in
the "crunch" and sustain damage, they would probably become
complete energy then reform afterwards.

Counterpoint: Gods and alien intelligences have stats. Everyone knows that the first rule of RPG villians is "If it has hitpoints, we can kill it"

[Rallan]

Could anything survive the Collaspe and Rebirth of the Universe. Includeing the Old Ones.

The laws of physics say "probably not", since the first few moments after the Big Bang (and presumably, the last few moments before a hypothetical "big crunch" implosion) weren't a very nice place to live. Everything was so densely packed and so overloaded with energy that matter in any traditional sense of the word wasn't capable of existing, and the entire universe was just a homogenous sea of extremely energized fundamental particles at ludicrous temperatures.

that sounds like it would be in the range of a couple billion MDC worth of damage to me. probably reads like the main weapon on the SDF.

Moreso. In the first instants after the Big Bang, there's so much energy everywhere (on account of "everywhere" not being very big yet) that matter can't exist in any form you're familiar with today. We're not just talking about it being so hot that molecules fall apart into ionized plasma, we're talking about fundamental particles whizzing around with so much energy that they can't even coalesce into nice big subatomic particles like protons and neutrons. As hostile environments go, this is pretty much right up there with the heart of a black hole in terms of unsurvivability.

Still, if you're a soul trapped in a rune weapon you might survive that sort of event, depending on whether rune weapons really are as indestructable as everyone thinks.

[Rallan]

The infenent being that started it all would survive.

You assume there is one.

If there is no cause then then would be nothing, and only an infenent casue could start everything w/o needing a cause itself.

This is a roleplaying game. Whether the universe has a Creator / Primal Urge / whatever comes down to what the writers and your GM decides. Please to be taking theological debates to Sound Off

[Ahulane]

Could anything survive the Collaspe and Rebirth of the Universe. Includeing the Old Ones.

Yes, if they simply weren't in the same reality/universe they would survive...though no god in palladium that I can't think of off the top of my head can shift to another reality/universe. They are really just prolonging the inevitable...

If this Universe collapsed (which it won't btw) you'd have to leave it to avoid going with it.

Are you sure??

Check out this link and you may change your mind slightly...though if you acknowledge the Big Bang, then you have to acknowledge the fact that the universe will "crunch" eventually....but you could also say that it will just expand for a set amount of time and then just ignores the law of gravity and continues to expand until it stabalizes permanently to a fixed size...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

[Lukterran]

Let’s get one thing understood. A "dimension" in a "Palladium" since of the word is single universe and reality. There are other alternate realities / universe. In which there are infinite numbers of “dimensions” in the mega-verse.

It isn't like the Rifts world is on one side of the universe and the Palladium Fantasy world is on another side, and Phases world etc… are all sharing the same universe. They are all SEPERATE realms of existences.

So the collapse of 1 universe isn't the going to bring down the whole Mega-Verse.

Now, it really is a pointless question:

1. Is it happening in a game setting, someone needing a ruling, or is just a question to throw out there?

2. It isn't going to happen, how old is the universe? How long would it take to collapse to that point? Hundreds of trillions of years. I doubt many planets / worlds would be inhabitable if they were in a universe on the verge of collapse. They would have long ago begun to break apart be the gravitational forces, heat, cosmic radiation etc…

Most beings able to escape to other dimensions would have long ago. They would have tens of thousands of years notice before such an event would even take place.

Could anything survive the Collaspe and Rebirth of the Universe. Includeing the Old Ones.

The final answer this pointless question. There is one creature in the Palladium Mega-Verse that would survive, and could even cause such an event. A Mulka from RIFTS: Manhunter. (per the make-believe game rules)

[MrMom]

Lukterran you may find the question pointless and it is your right to be a stick in the mud but it would be nice if you didn't come on here and bash other peoples imagination. This is after all a only a game in which you are meant to have fun.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The infenent being that started it all would survive.

You assume there is one.

If there is no cause then then would be nothing, and only an infenent casue could start everything w/o needing a cause itself.

This is a roleplaying game. Whether the universe has a Creator / Primal Urge / whatever comes down to what the writers and your GM decides. Please to be taking theological debates to Sound Off

You are quite correct the the GM decides, and in the case of RPGs the GM is the game's infinent cause, for practicical purposes of the game.

[Rallan]

Nitpick: I hate Palladium's use of Dimension, a Dimension is a measureable direction, up/down, left/right, back/forth, upstream/downstream.

It's a genre convention, not something that Palladium's uniquely guilty of. Science fiction (and fantasy and horror, when they deal with this sort of thing) have been calling other realities "dimensions" since virtually forever.
[/quote]

[Rallan]

Check out this link and you may change your mind slightly...though if you acknowledge the Big Bang, then you have to acknowledge the fact that the universe will "crunch" eventually....but you could also say that it will just expand for a set amount of time and then just ignores the law of gravity and continues to expand until it stabalizes permanently to a fixed size...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

Actually you don't have to accept the concept of a crunch. If there's not enough matter in the universe, the collective gravitational pull of all its mass will never be enough to pull things back together faster than they expand. If that happens the universe will just keep getting larger and the matter and energy in it more thinly spread until we eventually see the Big Freeze, where the universe just keeps on gradually expanding until the matter and energy in it is so thinly spread that there's not enough of anything in any given place for anything interesting to happen.

It's also worth having a look at the similar but not identical heat death of the universe, where the reason nothing interesting happens will be because the system has finally reached maximum entropy.

[Aramanthus]

Interesting theory your esposing Max. Personally I support the Big Crunch more than the bursting bubble universe.

[Qev]

We don't know what's going to happen to the Universe in the distant future, really, since we haven't quite pinned down the nature of things like dark matter and dark energy.

The overall curvature of spacetime seems to be flat, or near enough as to be hard to tell from flat, which (mostly) rules out a Big Crunch. With things as they stand now, it looks like the universe will simply continue to expand, and cool, becoming very diffuse and cold in the distant future. Though with the weirdness of the cosmological constant, this could turn into a Big Rip, where the expansion of the universe continues to accelerate, eventually overpowering local gravity, then molecular, interatomic, and finally nuclear forces, shredding all matter.

Then of course you have the cyclic and brane cosmologies, which have branes (you could call them 'universes', sort of) embedded in an higher dimensional space, with collisions between these branes setting off events more or less similar to the Big Bang... only they can happen multiple times. I imagine these events would be at least as destructive as a Big Bang/Crunch to the unfortunates living in the universe.

The idea of black holes spawning universes has a few problems, one of which is the singularity. In a black hole, the singularity always lays in the future, whereas in our universe, the singularity lays in the past.

[Rallan]

Neither of those are realistic.

Space will only stretch so far.

When it reaches that limit the Universe will pop like an overinflated soap bubble, and simply evaporate back into the pre-universal foam it came from.

The difference is, this Universe has "singularities" in it, so it will leave lots of daughters in the foam.

Pure crap. Space is not a substance. It doesn't have some strange dimensional analogy to physical properties. Whether the universe keeps expanding indefinitely or eventually starts to contract back into itself relies entirely on the "shape" of spacetime and the amount of matter in it. All the matter in the universe exerts a gravitational pull on all the other matter in the universe, and this is the only braking force on its expansion. If there's not enough stuff though, the increasing distance between everything means that its collective gravitational pull will weaken faster than the rate at which it slows the expansion of the universe, and so the universe will just keep on going forever. That fills the criteria for the "Big Freeze" scenario, and means there's effecitively an infinite amount of time, which is more than enough for the Heat Death maximum entropy gig too.

And even if there is enough matter to eventually stop and reverse the universe's expansion, there still might be enough time for heat death to occur. After 10^14 (one hundred billion) years, star formation will have ceased. After 10^16 (ten trillion) years, the galaxies will have flung themselves apart, and the few stars that are left (which will pretty much all be things like neutron stars and black dwarfs) will finally drift off into open space or fall into supermassive black holes. It really doesn't matter if the universe is gradually on its way to a Big Crunch or not by that stage, because life as we know it will be incapable of existing anywhere. The only matter in the universe will be black holes, neutron stars, burnt out black dwarfs, and a smattering of deep-frozen planets and asteroids roaming aimlessly in the frozen void between 'em.

Now these are big numbers, but remember that the universe is apparently around 12 billion years old, and still expanding like its going out of style. If the universe manages to last a bit longer than ten times as long as it already has, it will see a time the birth of stars no longer happens and all the existing stars die off one by one.

[Rallan]

I'm talking about a Trillion Trillion years, a time which is as distant from our present now, as our present is from the initial moment of inflation, relatively.

Bit longer than that actually. The half-life of a proton is 10^36 years, which I think is a trillion trillion trillion years. That's a hell of a long time, but if the univserse is still around, it means roughly half the matter we're living with now (well, half the matter that doesn't wind up in the heart of a neutron star or a black hole) will still exist in a recognisable form. It's not until around 10^40 years (equivalent to the half-life of a proton ten thousand times over) that things will get really depressingly empty, because all the matter that wasn't in black holes will have decayed into fundamental particles by then.