Sniping

[asajosh]

I look at the "sniping rifles" offered in Rifts and I have to wonder why they are in existence? Sure, you can snipe someone not in body armor, but you really don't need a mega-damage weapon for that. The ranges on them are not all that great in comparision with regular infantry weapons and the damage won't punch through most helmets on body armors.

If you want to snipe someone with a single shot (nearly), try the Draygon VLC (Variable Laser Cannon) from Three Galaxies page 112. 4000 ft range, maximum of 66 MD of head melty goodness, and silent.
Besides which sniping in Rifts is more for a first attack kinda thing, or support for other combatants.

2) People don't walk around in their armor all day. It would be far too uncomfortable.

Plus you'd smell terribly!

[asajosh]

Sniper skills I see is as the knowledge of planning the field not just the shot. Picking ideal locations and planning an escaper route etc...

Good Call

[Nekira Sudacne]

The primary thing to remember is not everyone who wears MD body armor has enviromental armor.

Even if they wear a helment, they still have their faces and backs of their necks exposed most often.

[Killer Cyborg]

So, I'm thinking about a new skill.

Sniper: Elite

Sniper: Elite allows character to by-pass MD body armor with MD weapons.

No.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I'm looking over the sniping skill and I have to ask myself "what is the point?" A +2 to strike...against an opponent that in all likelihood, can't be killed with only one head shot.

You might want to take a look at Rifter #23's CS Target Acquisition Group article starting on page 74. I got to use it extensively with the author of it, and have made it part of my own game (it works just fine with RUE).

Not saying what you have thought up is bad - it just adds a bit more complexity than what most people would want.

[asajosh]

The "one shot one kill" you seem to be looking for doesn't exist in Rifts (with very rare NPC or narative exception) and its best that way. Adding this skill variant you propose, much like the HtH Assasin revision of yours in another post, if played will get very boring very fast I'm afraid. If you GM, play test it out on your group and see. GL.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I do intend on placing it in my game and seeing how it goes. I think I'm going to add a few more restrictions onto the skill by making it only avaliable to the Professional Assasin OCC out of Mercenaries and it has a pre-req of Sniping as well as Mechanical Engingering.

Ok, I could go with this as being exclusive to the Master Assasin and/or the Headhunter Assasin (I only use the Headhunter version myself). IIRC the Dinosaur Hunter from WB 26 has something similiar that is used (it's been a while since I read it) in that they can make head shots to take down Dino.

My only serious objection would be the part about being familiar with EBA's. I see your point, but with customization fairly common along with repairs done I'm not sure it would ultimately be relevant - at least if I was defending player I would try to make that point. There's also the risk I think of a player with Weapons Engineer attempting to say that since they already know all about EBA they shouldn't need to further specialize. Plus it's just one more thing to keep track of in a game that already has a lot to keep track of. This is what I meant by having too much complexity.

[Dustin Fireblade]

TheDarkSaint - Here's the basics of the Rifter TAG article I mentioned earlier. I don't know if you have access to it or otherwise have seen it and discarded it, but I thought just another perspective might be helpful.

+2 Aimed Shot w/single shot rifles
+2 Called Shot w/single shot rifles (takes 2 attacks)
+1 to Called Shots every three levels

Kill Shot: Requires a Called Shot to the head (12 or better under RMB)

vs SDC does standard SDC damage and double normal HP damage. Natural 20 is auto kill

vs. MDC does double damage and a nat 20 doubles it again. If it's not listed take 30% of the creatures MDC to find the head's MDC value. Plus you have to make a Demon Lore or D-Bee Lore check.

I had honestly forgotten about that last part about the skill roll, so what I might do is simply allow a character to roll under his Weapons Engineer skill to find the weak spot of a tech helmet (I'd allow Mechanical Engineer to do the same, but at a penalty).

If the helmet has been modified, maybe upping the needed to hit numbers would be in order. I think I'd drop part about needing to be familiar with EBA's to do this.

[Killer Cyborg]

I do intend on placing it in my game and seeing how it goes. I think I'm going to add a few more restrictions onto the skill by making it only avaliable to the Professional Assasin OCC out of Mercenaries and it has a pre-req of Sniping as well as Mechanical Engingering.


Honestly, I know I'm not going to change opinions here how about things are done in your game. What I am looking for are reasons why this could or couldn't work in a game, what the possible abuses are and where it could really screw things up. I think I've built in enough restrictions to make it a fairly balanced skill for what it is set out to do.

I was awake last night (too much diet coke before bed) and I was thinking of situations that might require a skill like this. I was thinking of other arguments and my own arguments on why this might be used in my game. Please feel free to disagree with me, but give me logical reasons. I'm looking for constructive advice on why this would or wouldn't work.

First, I'll clarify.
If you're wanting to shoot people in partial MDC armor, that's okay.
You can already do that by simply making a Called Shot at a location not protected by the armor.

If you're talking about EBA, it wouldn't work because the armor is air-tight mega-damage material.
There are no gaps to shoot through.

I know, you're thinking, "But surely there are weak points!"
No; there are not.
If there were, then explosives would be more effective, because those weak spots would be blasted through when somebody was caught in an explosion.
Also, the rules simply don't support the notion.
If you could bypass MDC armor, then it would have an Armor Rating (and, in some cases, it does).

For the argument: Wait for them to take off their helmets or until they are vunlerable.

If assassins have to wait for those moments (which I would agree are the BEST times to attack) then why do we have Mega Damage sniper rifles? A 7.62mm slug to the face is going to goo someone just as much as a laser blast. As an assassin, I would be spending 16,000 - 40,000 credits on a sniper pistol/rifle when 900 credits can get me a SDC rifle that would do the job just as well.

1. It doesn't do the job as well.
7.62mm slug does about 6d6 SDC. Which means that you can shoot somebody in the head for 6 points of damage (12, if you count headshots as critical). Which isn't going to kill very many people; an average person has 12 HP and maybe 10 SDC. So that (badly rolled) headshot will hurt them, just not kill them. Since an average person can live up to -10 HP, this means that you have to do 33 points of damage to be sure of your kill. Doing 12-72 (6d6x2) SDC damage, it's nearly a 50% chance that an average person will survive.
Yes, you can use explosive rounds for 1d6x10 SDC, but that still leaves a 1 in 6 chance that the target will survive.
And, of course, most targets aren't going to be Joe Average anyway. On Rifts Earth, you could be hired to take out a M&M, or a D-B, or demon, or borg, or any number of other things that you need Mega-Damage firepower for.

Conversely, a sniper laser rifle that does 2d6 MD will, on a headshot, do the equivilant of 400 SDC minimum.

2. Better penetration.
What if your target is concealed by a wall, tree, or rock?
Or simply standing in a crowd of people, shaking hands?
Ideally, you should get a clear shot, but for those times when you can't, it's good to be able to shoot through anything (SDC) that stands between you and your target.

3. Sometimes you will have to shoot at people in armor.
Really; I never said that you wouldn't have to sometimes.
When that's the case, it's good to be able to do some damage.
People think that "Sniper" = "One Shot, One Kill", but it really just means "Somebody who fires from a concealed position".
IF necessary, it's nice to be able to plink a few shots off at the enemy, move and hide again, and repeat until the enemy is dead.
In military terms, a sniper's job isn't just to kill the enemy, it's also to demoralize the enemy.
And getting slowly picked off by an invisible, untouchable enemy will do that, whether that enemy is getting one-shot kills or not.
Or getting your guns blown up in your hands.
Or getting your limbs shot off.

4. Just in Case.
So you're sitting there, with your 7.65mm rifle, waiting for a good shot at the target, and you hear something in the bushes...
And a couple of (armored and armed) soldiers stumble onto your hiding place.
That leaves you either bouncing slugs harmlessly off their armor, or spending an attack to switch weapons (which also means that you're lugging around at least 2 weapons).

So, why even produce an MD sniping rifle if

A) It does not have enough power to punch through even Plastic man armor

Ah, but it does.
Some of them can even punch through Plastic Man in one shot.
Just not in the main body.
But if you blow off somebody's arm, they'll take notice.
And likely die of shock or bleed to death.

But yeah, sometimes you'll have to take more than one shot.

B) A cheaper, SDC weapon will do the trick if the target is unarmored.

Unless the target is naturally MDC, or has high SDC, or you roll low damage, etc. etc. etc.

Use Advanced Sniping Rules

I think (and I might be wrong) that I've made the skill fairly munchkin proof. It is only useable on a certain set of body armors, so if Jimmie the Juicer is familer with old Dead Boy style armor, he can't use this skill on one of the new Dead Boy armors. The sniper needs to take time out to tear apart and understand the armor and any intrinsic weakenesses. It takes all of his attacks to pull this off and the percentage chance of the blow actually landing is pretty low (around 20% of the time), meaning if some moron tried this in actual combat, others would be free to pummel him while he tried to line up the shot.

You are wrong; bypassing MDC armor negates the point of the armor.
Which is munchkin all by itself.

What I'm hoping you all can provide me are HELPFUL ideas on how to make this work and possible abuse angles that I'm missing.

1. You won't like this piece of advice, but I'll post it anyway:
Get Over It.
Armor tech is better than weapons tech in the game of Rifts.
Adapt to this idea instead of trying to make up cheesy ways to change the game.
You don't make a game better by removing a player's motivation to think and plan, which is all that bypassing armor does.
Yes, you have tried to limit the circumstances, but all that means is that your players will be able to pull this particular munchkin trick some of the time.
Being bad some of the time is still being bad.

2. The most subtle form of abuse that would exist is that either
a. You will use this power against your players, and kill their characters
b. You will NOT use this power against your players, which will give the PCs an unfair advantage over NPCs; they'll have a special power that nobody else in the game will dare use against them, because you won't want to instant-kill them from a distance, with no warning.

3. Instead of the Armor Bypass skill, just give them a Natural bonus to strike with certain weapons or in certain situations.
Get a copy of N&S, and look up the One Life, One Shot, One Hit, One Kill power; it gives snipers an automatic crit in certain circumstances.
Make a sniper rifle that fires Armor Piercing Mini-Missles (and read up the damage they do on crits!)
Basically, read up on the existing rules and do your best to use them, before you decide that they need to be changed.

[Killer Cyborg]

Setting: Imagine, if you will, the scene in Saving Private Ryan where the US troopers are slogging through the French Town in the rain when they come under Sniper fire by a concealed German in an old church. Now, imagine that the German is really an operative from Tolkeen and the US troops are CS troops. The sniper has been hired to sit at this position and take out a Captain Bridges and his two Lieutenants. He is to cause as much collateral damage to the surrounding CS troops as possible.


Standard Sniping Rules


Harold let a smile creep over his face as the first of the Coalition troops plodded into the burned out town. He stared down the scope of his new, Triax sniper rifle and began counting troops. His gaze swept over the APC as it rolled along slowly, hemmed in by ancient pre-rift buildings. He slowly adjusted his radio, trying to listen in on the CS radio ban. He grumbled about the rain and combat situation which prompted most of the soldiers to keep their helmets on, but it did allow him to hack into their communication systems. His orders had been very clear. Disrupt the Coalition here, remove the Captain and then order in the rest of the ambush squad.

The swept back pinions of Captain Bridges marked the officer as he walked behind the APC. He seemed to be having a conversation with the Lieutenant next to him. Harold eased off the safety of his new rifle. It felt very well balanced in his experienced hands and he hoped it would have a better performance than his old Wilk’s rifle. He consciously slowed down his breathing as he sighted up the Captain. He gently let out his breath as the shot resolved itself and gently squeezed the trigger.

His shot was dead on. The laser lanced out silently through the pouring rain and drilled into the Coalition soldier’s helmet. The officer jerked back and went to his knees. Harold glanced above the scope, looking hopeful but swore loudly when he saw the Captain franticly scrambling for the APC and waving his arms, screaming for cover fire. The assassin quickly lined up another shot and blasted again, but only managed to score some damage across the Captains shoulder. The rest of the CS forces had opened fire in a 180 degree arc in front of them, chewing through the buildings and sending shrapnel up into Harold’s face.

The sniper quickly backed up, swearing as he pulled out his remote for the fusion blocks he had placed earlier. He thumbed the button and a satisfying series of *WHUPS* went off around the troops, throwing them off balance. He yelled into his radio to be expecting company soon as he heard the Samas Air support streaking in on Captain Bridges command.

The problem there is that your sniper is stupid.
Part of being a sniper is knowing when, where, and how to hit your enemies.
Shooting CS soldiers in the head with a laser rifle isn't going to be effective, and any sniper with a brain would know that.
Most of the helmets in Rifts Earth are nearly as tough as the main body armor.
If you're going to snipe at an armored soldier, you go for his weakest point, and that's not the head.
Arms usually give you the best chance.

Or maybe he should have used the fusion blocks first, as actual weapons, placing them in the path the soldiers would walk throuh, then tried to pick off the survivors with his laser rifle, after they're damaged.

Also, the Triax Laser rifle sucks.
Just because somebody manufactures something doesn't make it good, and just because somebody sticks a glorified laser-pointer in a paintball gun and calls it a laser sniper rifle doesn't mean it'll do the job.

Elite Sniping in Place

Harold let a smile creep over his face as the first of the Coalition troops plodded into the burned out town. He stared down the scope of his new, Triax sniper rifle and began counting troops. His gaze swept over the APC as it rolled along slowly, hemmed in by ancient pre-rift buildings. He slowly adjusted his radio, trying to listen in on the CS radio ban. He had spent a great deal of time taking apart an officers body armor in preparation for this mission and determined that while armored, the eye pieces to the helmet were not as strong as a grunts due to the increased communication and night vision package the officers were carrying. A well placed shot, while difficult, could kill a man.

The distinctive swept back helm of a Coalition officer bobbed into view on his scope. Harold smiled and slowly dialed a higher magnification until the skull like helmet became his entire world. He sighted the cross hairs onto the right eye piece, struggling to keep his heartbeat from making his gun jump fractions of millimeters, which would translate to centimeters at this range. He had to be precise. He followed the officer, getting a feel for how the man moved, walked, trying to anticipate movements. After a full minute of relaxing and lining up his shot, Harold gently squeezed the trigger of this rifle.

The silent laser beam snapped out through the rain and punched through the eye piece. Captain Bridges stood stock still for 3-4 seconds and then slowly slumped to the ground. Harold shifted his aim over to one of the Lieutenants who was now crouching down beside his officer, asking if something was wrong. The other soldiers were milling around in confusion. As a medic came over to remove the Captains helmet, Harold gently squeezed the trigger and another Lieutenant went down. Panic set in with the last officer and the CS troops began to dive for cover, weapons bristling, trying to find their attacker in the rain.

Harold flipped the switch to his fusion blocks, placed in exactly the places he would have dived for cover at. The resulting explosions wiped out near 3/4ths of the remaining troops. Moral broke and they began to scatter back. Harold slide his rifle away and began to creep back deeper into the building.

Actually, I liked the first story better; it was more interesting, with better action.

The thing is, this sniper isn't any smarter than the first guy; you've just bent the laws of physics to adjust to his plan.

The fact is that, in the world of Rifts, his mission was a fool's errand. Some guy with a Triax Rifle up against multiple CS troops?
Please.

I could write a couple of stories myself:
Scenario 1: "Killer Bob was hired to take out 100 Deadboys, but all he had was a vibro-knife! He died, isn't the game unfair!?"
Scenario 2: "But with Elite Knife-Fighting, he killed them all (except the ones that ran!), Isn't that better?"

As I've said before, instead of bending the game to YOU, try to adapt to the game. That's how people build skills.

If your players want to play snipers, that's cool.
Give them missions that they can handle within the scope of the rules.

[Rallan]

I look at the "sniping rifles" offered in Rifts and I have to wonder why they are in existence? Sure, you can snipe someone not in body armor, but you really don't need a mega-damage weapon for that. The ranges on them are not all that great in comparision with regular infantry weapons and the damage won't punch through most helmets on body armors.

If you want to snipe someone with a single shot (nearly), try the Draygon VLC (Variable Laser Cannon) from Three Galaxies page 112. 4000 ft range, maximum of 66 MD of head melty goodness, and silent.
Besides which sniping in Rifts is more for a first attack kinda thing, or support for other combatants.

You do know it's only silent because Siembieda never thought things through properly, right?

[asajosh]

I look at the "sniping rifles" offered in Rifts and I have to wonder why they are in existence? Sure, you can snipe someone not in body armor, but you really don't need a mega-damage weapon for that. The ranges on them are not all that great in comparision with regular infantry weapons and the damage won't punch through most helmets on body armors.

If you want to snipe someone with a single shot (nearly), try the Draygon VLC (Variable Laser Cannon) from Three Galaxies page 112. 4000 ft range, maximum of 66 MD of head melty goodness, and silent.
Besides which sniping in Rifts is more for a first attack kinda thing, or support for other combatants.

You do know it's only silent because Siembieda never thought things through properly, right?

Or perhaps because the laser systems today require huge amounts of power to be dumped quickly, and those capcitors, when fully charged, hum audibly. And the woosh of air expanding out from being super heated really fast. but more or less silent.

[Dustin Fireblade]

As I've said before, instead of bending the game to YOU, try to adapt to the game. That's how people build skills.

Doesn't Kevin Seimbeida himself say something to the effect of "if you don't like a rule don't use it" or "change it"

[Killer Cyborg]

As I've said before, instead of bending the game to YOU, try to adapt to the game. That's how people build skills.

Doesn't Kevin Seimbeida himself say something to the effect of "if you don't like a rule don't use it" or "change it"

Yup, and it's great advice.

But first, you should try playing the game as it's written.
Just like you should try playing a video game normally before you start punching in cheat codes.

[Rallan]

I look at the "sniping rifles" offered in Rifts and I have to wonder why they are in existence? Sure, you can snipe someone not in body armor, but you really don't need a mega-damage weapon for that. The ranges on them are not all that great in comparision with regular infantry weapons and the damage won't punch through most helmets on body armors.

If you want to snipe someone with a single shot (nearly), try the Draygon VLC (Variable Laser Cannon) from Three Galaxies page 112. 4000 ft range, maximum of 66 MD of head melty goodness, and silent.
Besides which sniping in Rifts is more for a first attack kinda thing, or support for other combatants.

You do know it's only silent because Siembieda never thought things through properly, right?

Or perhaps because the laser systems today require huge amounts of power to be dumped quickly, and those capcitors, when fully charged, hum audibly. And the woosh of air expanding out from being super heated really fast. but more or less silent.

Oh I'm not worried about the capacitors so much as I'm worried about the woosh. Y'know the big thundering bang lightning makes? That's the "woosh" of air being superheated really fast, and that's from something that's just powerful enough to melt sand when it hits. Mega-damage lasers are powerful enough to vaporise people, masonry, or big neat holes through the hulls of SDC battleships. The sheer amount of energy in a shot fired by an MDC laser is whole orders of magnitude greater than the energy in a lightning bolt, and it's gonna be dumping whole orders of magnitude more heat into the air it passes through. That's gonna cause a crack of thunder rolling across the landscape like you wouldn't believe. It's also gonna be pretty damn easy to see, even if the laser is set to fire white light or a frequency that's outside the visible spectrum, because that line of air that the laser's just passed through is gonna be a glowing trail of superheated plasma.

[asajosh]

I look at the "sniping rifles" offered in Rifts and I have to wonder why they are in existence? Sure, you can snipe someone not in body armor, but you really don't need a mega-damage weapon for that. The ranges on them are not all that great in comparision with regular infantry weapons and the damage won't punch through most helmets on body armors.

If you want to snipe someone with a single shot (nearly), try the Draygon VLC (Variable Laser Cannon) from Three Galaxies page 112. 4000 ft range, maximum of 66 MD of head melty goodness, and silent.
Besides which sniping in Rifts is more for a first attack kinda thing, or support for other combatants.

You do know it's only silent because Siembieda never thought things through properly, right?

Or perhaps because the laser systems today require huge amounts of power to be dumped quickly, and those capcitors, when fully charged, hum audibly. And the woosh of air expanding out from being super heated really fast. but more or less silent.

Oh I'm not worried about the capacitors so much as I'm worried about the woosh. Y'know the big thundering bang lightning makes? That's the "woosh" of air being superheated really fast, and that's from something that's just powerful enough to melt sand when it hits. Mega-damage lasers are powerful enough to vaporise people, masonry, or big neat holes through the hulls of SDC battleships. The sheer amount of energy in a shot fired by an MDC laser is whole orders of magnitude greater than the energy in a lightning bolt, and it's gonna be dumping whole orders of magnitude more heat into the air it passes through. That's gonna cause a crack of thunder rolling across the landscape like you wouldn't believe. It's also gonna be pretty damn easy to see, even if the laser is set to fire white light or a frequency that's outside the visible spectrum, because that line of air that the laser's just passed through is gonna be a glowing trail of superheated plasma.

Okies, ive done some research (google hehe) and yes the laser itseflf is silent, but the rushing air definately should make a sharp crack similar to a thunder clap. I don't know about the whole creatinga plasma trail effect, even though you may be correct (and I can't verify til i finish my own MD laser ), I'll be following the canon of the game. Mostly because of precident.

[Rallan]

The plasma's just a guess, but a pretty safe one. Even today we have lasers powerful enough to create an (invisible) ionised trail through the atmosphere (apparently NASA uses UV lasers to create these trails on purpose during thunderstorms, to ground lightning and reduce the chance of a lightning strike messing up a rocket launch). If you've got a laser that can instantly vapourise the inside of a Buick, I think it's safe to same it'll be throwing out more than enough energy to turn the air it passes through into a plasma.

Which reminds me, you probably wouldn't want to fire an MDC laser without wearing MDC protection. Especially underwater.

[asajosh]

I watch Saving Private Ryan and that sniper scene really would scare me if I were those grunts. That guy has the high position and if they are exposed, then they face getting killed or hurt terribly. And how the sniper is dealt with by the counter sniper (although fairly unrealistic) is something that makes you at least grin, if not throw up your arms and shout.

Ahh good example of a sniper at work
But the soldiers in that example, the GI's had NO armor except for their helmets.

And now I direct your attention to a little piece of cinema called Full Metal Jacket. When they had a sniper do deal with, they called in a tank to blast out a few floors of a building

[Killer Cyborg]

I guess what I'm looking for is that situation where the PC's come under attack by someone in a concealed position and they feel actual fear instead of just standing there, taking the damage and leveling the area around them.

Then what you want is:
a. A sniper that is well hidden/protected enough that the PCs can't effectively shoot him, or even really tell where the shots are coming from.
They can level the area around them, but it won't do much good if the target isn't there.
b. A sniper that is a lethal threat to the target.
This means you get a more powerful gun, or less powerful targets.
The JA-11 is a nice sniper rifle (and versatile), as is the Xiticix TK rifles, but against powerful PCs (or NPCs), you'll bave better luck with:
-A glitterboy + Boom Gun
-A Shemarrian Rail Gun
-A Mechanoid Plasma Rifle
-A MiO GB varient with the VF Laser Cannon

Edit:
The other thing is that you may have fallen for the old mistake of letting PCs easily repair their armor, when reaslistically there aren't going to be armor repair facilities in most places, only large cities and other high-tech centers.
Whittle down the characters with a few "easy" encounters, and pretty soon they WILL be able to be picked off by that Triax carrying sniper.

I watch Saving Private Ryan and that sniper scene really would scare me if I were those grunts. That guy has the high position and if they are exposed, then they face getting killed or hurt terribly. And how the sniper is dealt with by the counter sniper (although fairly unrealistic) is something that makes you at least grin, if not throw up your arms and shout.

I'm not sure I want to let the rules get in the way of creating a mood around my players and I don't want to be the arbitrary GM who says "the sniper took you out by shooting you through the eye piece. Deal with it" without having a logical system in place to explain why that happened. (I'm much more likely to kill an NPC that way to let the players know they are in real trouble rather than blasting away at them without warning)

I'm not looking for a way to cheat. I'm looking for a way to create a sense of belief in a combat situation.

Not exactly.
You're looking for a way to create a sense of belief in a combat situation, AND you're trying to build up snipers as being incredibly (and swiftly) lethal, AND you're trying to to both these things without setting up the overal plot to where it will work.

You want that sort of intense, Saving Private Ryan sniper encounter?
Easy; have your players roll up some main book (human or SDC D-B) vagabonds or wilderness scouts with little to no MDC armor.
Run a low enough powered game where a sniper with a Triax Sniper Rifle is that kind of a threat.
OR let your PCs roll up standard power-level characters, and throw them up against a sniper with Naruni gear or other uber-powerful stuff.
Or a Phase Rifle (which actually DOES bypass MDC armor).

Rifts has everything you need and more to set up the type of scene you want, but you don't seem to want to set things up that way.

I saw a TV show once, I was younger and I can't remeber what it was. It took place in vietnam and these marines were walking through rice paddies. One of the marines hears a *click* as he steps over a retaining wall and freezes. The others know that he has stepped on and activated a mine and if he takes his foot off of it, he blows up (yeah, he should have died when he stepped on it, but then the show would have been REALLY short. I think they explained it by it being poorly buried or outdated technology.

Actually, there are supposed to be mines that work that way; the button on the mine needs to be depressed and released in order to detonate the mine.
I'm not positive that this type of mine exists, but it shows up a LOT in movies.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm just not sure if I am happy with the incapability of professional snipers being unable to handle a situation where the target is more than likely going to be armored and they have to get a confirmed kill. (by incapability, I mean to do so with a traditional rifle, we both agree there are plenty of other ways to do it).

Well, the books say that a standard soldier with EBA and a MD energy weapon is the equivilant of a 20th Century tank, and snipers aren't the weapon of choice against tanks.

I understand what you're saying, it just ends up leading to (IMHO) bad things.
Writers were unhappy with a dinosaur's capability to take on standard MD footsoldiers, so Dino's got beefed up.
And they wanted Indians to have MD bows, so they gave them laser bows.
And they thought that Grizzlies should be tough compared to an average MDC-clad guy, so they made some inexplicably MDC Grizzlies.
And so on.

None of that would be actually bad for specific campaignworlds, but every change made in the rules changes the entire setting to varying degrees.
Add them all together, and Rifts becomes a very different game than it started out as.

I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

[Killer Cyborg]

I also disagree with the authors about body armor and a pistol making an individual as powerful as a tank. In my opinion, that should be left to the realm of power armor, robots and..well..tanks. But, I'm not writing the books, so hey.

Well, they say "20th Century tank", not as powerful as a Rifts tank.

I'm curious about something though. I was looking over the rules for SDC conversion in the 1st ed Conversion book. I was thinking that since EBA is tough, it should have a relatively high AR (18 or so) and power armor/tanks/bots shouldn't even have an AR. Yet Kevin wrote that EBA has an AR of 14 and lots of bots/power armors are around 16.

To me, going strait to that SDC conversion means a whole lot more splat for anybody in anything.

Thoughts?

Well, you could assume that KS was treating EBA like robots and power armor, in which case beating the AR doesn't damage the person inside the armor, it simply means that your attack does indeed damage the actual armor.

But that doesn't seem to go along with what you want, so here are a couple of house-rule alternatives:

1. When a character attempts to parry or dodge, instead of rolling d20 and adding their parry/dodge bonus to that, use their AR as a base.
So if a character has a +7 to parry, and an AR of 14, then he has an effective AR of 21 while actively parrying incoming melee attacks.
When not actively parrying or dodging, his AR remains the same.

Or

2. Assume that EBA or power armor has a base AR of 20, since it's airtight. Add in 1/10th of the armor's MDC (well, SDC once you're through with it) to the base.
Plastic Man, for example, would have (rounding 3.5 up to 4) an AR of 24.
Heavy Deadboy would have an AR of 28.
And so on.

Normally a natural 20 always hits, and this may be why Palladium doesn't like to have ARs of 20 or higher, but a minor tweak and that's no problem either:
If a character rolls a nat 20 to strike, have them roll another d20 and add that to the first strike roll.
That way a natural 20 could theoretically bypass/damage something with an AR of up to 40+, if you roll a second natural 20.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

god why does everyone try to turn rifts into Halo?

[Mantisking]

I saw a TV show once, I was younger and I can't remeber what it was. It took place in vietnam and these marines were walking through rice paddies. One of the marines hears a *click* as he steps over a retaining wall and freezes. The others know that he has stepped on and activated a mine and if he takes his foot off of it, he blows up (yeah, he should have died when he stepped on it, but then the show would have been REALLY short. I think they explained it by it being poorly buried or outdated technology.

Actually, there are supposed to be mines that work that way; the button on the mine needs to be depressed and released in order to detonate the mine. I'm not positive that this type of mine exists, but it shows up a LOT in movies.

Yeah, it's designed to get more than the one soldier that steps on it. As the soldier that activated it steps off, the trailing soldier comes into range. {* boom *}

[Rallan]

I think I'm one of the last two people on earth that has never played HALO. I always tend to panic in those games and get blasted anyway. I'm used to the old Nintendo games where mashing your A or B button usually did the trick. This whole "change gun" theme is too much for this old boy to handle.

From what I've seen of HALO and what my students tell me, I think its too easy to snipe in that game.

Not really. The best human guns for the job aren't particularly effective against aliens, and the best Covanent weapons for the job can't be reloaded. And of course sniping is pretty silly if you're not in a big open-plan area with a clear line of sight on distant targets. While there's a few places in the game where sniping is possible (and damn handy), ammo constraints and architecture conspire to make sure most of the action happens at close range.

And most other first-person shooters are more or less the same in that regard. Sniping is fun and satisfying, but it would get dull if it was effective most of the time, so your typical FPS only has a handful of large open areas where sniping is practical and makes sure most of the action happens in far more confined spaces.

[jade von delioch]

theres a rifter issue that has some really good sniper rules in it.. i don't remember which issue though.

[Dustin Fireblade]

theres a rifter issue that has some really good sniper rules in it.. i don't remember which issue though.

Rifter #23...I mentioned it on the first page.

[jade von delioch]

sorry, didn't see that...

[Vrykolas2k]

I look at the "sniping rifles" offered in Rifts and I have to wonder why they are in existence? Sure, you can snipe someone not in body armor, but you really don't need a mega-damage weapon for that. The ranges on them are not all that great in comparision with regular infantry weapons and the damage won't punch through most helmets on body armors.

If you want to snipe someone with a single shot (nearly), try the Draygon VLC (Variable Laser Cannon) from Three Galaxies page 112. 4000 ft range, maximum of 66 MD of head melty goodness, and silent.
Besides which sniping in Rifts is more for a first attack kinda thing, or support for other combatants.

2) People don't walk around in their armor all day. It would be far too uncomfortable.

Plus you'd smell terribly!

Yes, that's a great rifle... unfortunately, 99.9999% (or more) of people on Rifts Earth have no access to it; even most Naruni weapons would be pushing it, really...

Most of the sniper rifles in Rifts were supposedly developed 'ere the coming of the Rifts, when I guess body armour was a lot less protective. I guess weapons engineers forgot how to improve weapon damages to keep up with b.a. after that, and certainly don't know how to improve ranges to modern levels...

[Qev]

Personally, I'd just say that due to the disparity between weapon power and armor strength, sniping just isn't a feasible tactic in MDC combat under most conditions. Technology changes how wars are fought all the time.

[Rallan]

Is that the fault of the writer who details mass product equipment or the fault of the players and GM for lacking imagination enough to create new weapons and armor using the skills in the game like weapon engineer to build new, modify existing equipment?

The product sucking is never the fault of the GM or players. The quality of individual campaigns is down to the GM and players, but if there's something blatantly silly in the books you can't just say "well it's the GM's fault for not changing the stuff he doesn't like".

I mean let's use an example that's relevant to this thread. The Triax TX-11 Laser Sniper Rifle (SB1, reprinted in WB5). Its range of 1600' and damage of 3D6 MDC mean that it's actually a worse choice for a sniping character than just about any other laser in the game, because even in the early books pretty much every laser rifle in the game had a longer range, and most of them (except I think the early Wilkes laser rifles) did more damage as well. Now is it my fault that the stats given for it in the book are retarded? According to you, yes it is.

[Rallan]

Personally, I'd just say that due to the disparity between weapon power and armor strength, sniping just isn't a feasible tactic in MDC combat under most conditions. Technology changes how wars are fought all the time.

Yeah pretty much. It's anyone's guess whether they intended it or not, but as written, the game mechanics in Rifts mean that it's now exceedingly difficult to maim or kill your target on the battlefield with one shot, or to deploy high explosives to wipe out large bodies of men simultaneously. A guy in oldschool Coalition body armor requires an average of three plasma mini-missiles to kill, and a typical MDC tank will survive ten or more of the things, even though these are supposed to be the Rifts equivalent of a LAW. Railguns are meant to be squad-level weapons for mowing the enemy down in droves, but you'll need four full bursts focused on that one single guy in CS armor to be reasonably sure of taking him out (which means a low-level soldier manning the Rifts equivalent of heavy machineguns will be able to average one measly kill every 15 seconds). Packing a laser rifle? Well where a 20th century soldier could expect a guy to go down with one or two hits from an assault rifle and stay down if you put another couple into him, that CS soldier will be operating at full efficiency for an average of six shots before you put him down (or eight shots if you're using a dinky 3D6 damage laser). Hell, even a Glitter Boy's boom gun isn't guarunteed to penetrate most MDC body armors with one hit, although he's at least one of the few guys in the game who's got a better than 50/50 chance of a one-hit kill.

If we decide to be generous and assume that this is a deliberate theme for the setting, it means that Rifts Earth is pretty much the only time in history where armor has outstripped weaponry pretty much across the board. The closest historical equivalent I can think of would be the age of sail, where ships could exchange cannon broadsides for hours before one of them would finally be too disabled to continue the fight. And even then the ability to take damage better than you can dish it out only applied to the ships (their crews generally suffered appalling casualties), and only to that particular kind of attack (launching a fireship into a crowded harbour could devastate entire fleets if you were lucky). But on Rifts Earth, everything can take it better than they can dish it out. Infantry with basic body armour can survive direct railgun and mini-missile strikes. Power Armor, robots, and tanks can take a pummeling from a small squad of opponents for a minute or more before they're disabled. Sharpshooters on the battlefield are no longer the scourge of every soldier who's out in the open, they have to settle for catching their enemy napping when he's wearing no protection.

[Killer Cyborg]

If we decide to be generous and assume that this is a deliberate theme for the setting, it means that Rifts Earth is pretty much the only time in history where armor has outstripped weaponry pretty much across the board. The closest historical equivalent I can think of would be the age of sail, where ships could exchange cannon broadsides for hours before one of them would finally be too disabled to continue the fight. And even then the ability to take damage better than you can dish it out only applied to the ships (their crews generally suffered appalling casualties), and only to that particular kind of attack (launching a fireship into a crowded harbour could devastate entire fleets if you were lucky).

Better yet, the battle between the Monitor and the Merrimac; neither ship hurt the other one at all, and the only damage to the crew was that some of them were deafened from the noise.

Yes, Rifts is the first time in history where armor has outstripped weapon damage (well, the first time that lasted more than one battle), but it's also the first time in history where interdimensional rifts opened up and the planet was flooded with hordes of demons and D-bees.

All of which is what makes it interesting.

But on Rifts Earth, everything can take it better than they can dish it out.

Almost everything.

The exception being vehicles and robots with lots of missiles and the ability to launch large volleys; they can dish out one heck of a lot of damage, but their MDC is often only slightly better than a suit of light power armor.

Infantry with basic body armour can survive direct railgun and mini-missile strikes. Power Armor, robots, and tanks can take a pummeling from a small squad of opponents for a minute or more before they're disabled. Sharpshooters on the battlefield are no longer the scourge of every soldier who's out in the open, they have to settle for catching their enemy napping when he's wearing no protection.

Exactly.
Good posting.

[panzerfaust]

Yeah pretty much. It's anyone's guess whether they intended it or not, but as written, the game mechanics in Rifts mean that it's now exceedingly difficult to maim or kill your target on the battlefield with one shot, or to deploy high explosives to wipe out large bodies of men simultaneously. A guy in oldschool Coalition body armor requires an average of three plasma mini-missiles to kill, and a typical MDC tank will survive ten or more of the things, even though these are supposed to be the Rifts equivalent of a LAW. Railguns are meant to be squad-level weapons for mowing the enemy down in droves, but you'll need four full bursts focused on that one single guy in CS armor to be reasonably sure of taking him out (which means a low-level soldier manning the Rifts equivalent of heavy machineguns will be able to average one measly kill every 15 seconds). Packing a laser rifle? Well where a 20th century soldier could expect a guy to go down with one or two hits from an assault rifle and stay down if you put another couple into him, that CS soldier will be operating at full efficiency for an average of six shots before you put him down (or eight shots if you're using a dinky 3D6 damage laser). Hell, even a Glitter Boy's boom gun isn't guarunteed to penetrate most MDC body armors with one hit, although he's at least one of the few guys in the game who's got a better than 50/50 chance of a one-hit kill.

If we decide to be generous and assume that this is a deliberate theme for the setting, it means that Rifts Earth is pretty much the only time in history where armor has outstripped weaponry pretty much across the board. The closest historical equivalent I can think of would be the age of sail, where ships could exchange cannon broadsides for hours before one of them would finally be too disabled to continue the fight. And even then the ability to take damage better than you can dish it out only applied to the ships (their crews generally suffered appalling casualties), and only to that particular kind of attack (launching a fireship into a crowded harbour could devastate entire fleets if you were lucky). But on Rifts Earth, everything can take it better than they can dish it out. Infantry with basic body armour can survive direct railgun and mini-missile strikes. Power Armor, robots, and tanks can take a pummeling from a small squad of opponents for a minute or more before they're disabled. Sharpshooters on the battlefield are no longer the scourge of every soldier who's out in the open, they have to settle for catching their enemy napping when he's wearing no protection.

If THATS your problem Rallan check out my (and relitively simple) Rifts S.D.C. to M.D.C. rules here in my S.D.C. Version of Rifts thread also on the G.M.s forums.

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

we made a fairly simple addition to sniping, we counted "aiming" bonuses as "natural". Meaning if I had a scope, the Sniper Skill and took an action to aim, giving me like a +5 or whatever than I scored a critical hit on a 15 or higher, double damage to a helmet will take most people out pretty quick, while at the same time, making it so one shot, one kill still pretty hard to accomplish, 5% to 25% or so for a critical. Though do remember that it takes 3 actions, 1 normal, +1 for aiming and +1 for the called shot

[AllMightyRCB]

You could just use the Naruni sniper rifle on page 54 of Phase World Source Book. 6,000' range and 100MD max damage for 80 grand. Or if you're rolling in the dough, use an anti tank laser rifle. It won't go as far, but it does alot of damage.

[asajosh]

You could just use the Naruni sniper rifle on page 54 of Phase World Source Book. 6,000' range and 100MD max damage for 80 grand. Or if you're rolling in the dough, use an anti tank laser rifle. It won't go as far, but it does alot of damage.

Dont forget the Eye of Eylor for double damage and unlimited payload

[Rallan]

If we decide to be generous and assume that this is a deliberate theme for the setting, it means that Rifts Earth is pretty much the only time in history where armor has outstripped weaponry pretty much across the board. The closest historical equivalent I can think of would be the age of sail, where ships could exchange cannon broadsides for hours before one of them would finally be too disabled to continue the fight. And even then the ability to take damage better than you can dish it out only applied to the ships (their crews generally suffered appalling casualties), and only to that particular kind of attack (launching a fireship into a crowded harbour could devastate entire fleets if you were lucky).

Better yet, the battle between the Monitor and the Merrimac; neither ship hurt the other one at all, and the only damage to the crew was that some of them were deafened from the noise.

It was a bit of a historical fluke though. In the American Civil War two ironclads could go toe to toe for hours and barely scratch each other. They just happened to get invented shortly before a series of breakthroughs in the second half of the nineteenth century would revolutionise field artillery and high explosives, and by the time World War One came around even battleships with 18 inches of armor were obsolete, although the world's major powers hadn't realised it yet.

[Ahulane]

I've noticed after skimming through the last 2 pages and reading the 1st 2 that nobody mentioned the rifter with Pass through damage...Its not #23 thats the one with the Sniper Hand to Hand styles which are friggan sweet but not really needed with the new RUE rules...

I remember back when I made an Avenging Angel cyborg and gave him a rifle (can't remember which) that had roughly a mile range on it, energy based but took an entire clip for 1 shot (from South america I think) and does **** tons of damage...I also gave the borg a better jet-pack plus a load of camoflage gear and some sweet upgrades...too much stuff to list but I basically re-built him from the ground up to be a pure sniper that could snipe from any position (land, air or sea). Well my friend didn't like the whole sniper idea so when we started the game the 1st thing I come into contact with just flying around is a random squad of coalition troops which begin to fire upon me...I take cover get 2 shots off then get lit up by grenades from a group of samas that "happened" to be passing by...there goes that character...My next sniper was a rogue Monkey-boy dinosaur hunter...he got butchered by 20 or so gunslingers because he was walking down the middle of the road slower than they wanted...personally I haven't had much luck with either of my sniper toons because my friends don't think its fun to play one since all you do is make a few rolls and move on if its combat...they like to be more involved so snipers in our games have pretty much been banned...

The reason I tell you about the borg though is because had he been given the opportunity to do what he was meant to do he would totally own everything...or at least he'd be a serious threat when compared to your typical sniper...

Also I mention the pass through damage because it applies to your complaint that MD weapons as sniper weapons are useless...If you use the advanced HtH rules in the rifter with the Mystic Knight on the cover...if you have HtH commando or assassin you can make critical called shots to specific locations which cause certain things to happen...it may only apply to melee but you can adapt the rules to work for ranged as well for alot of the locations since it gives a % of that loactions damage capacity as well as the strike roll needed to hit and the penalty for attacking certain locations. Pass through damage does a % of damage to targets who are wearing armor and take significantly large amounts of damage from MD weapons, I think its 10% but I can't be sure since I don't have my books with me (at work).

If you combine the Sniper HtH, Pass through damage, and and the advanced locational damage rules then you'd be able to snipe more like you would in real life...it would require a huge amount of work but you'd get more realism if thats what your looking for, plus you wouldn't have to worry about armored targets if you did a good amount of damage and had the ability to obtain one of the uber rifles...but even the crappy ones would be dangerous...

If assassins have to wait for those moments (which I would agree are the BEST times to attack) then why do we have Mega Damage sniper rifles? A 7.62mm slug to the face is going to goo someone just as much as a laser blast. As an assassin, I would be spending 16,000 - 40,000 credits on a sniper pistol/rifle when 900 credits can get me a SDC rifle that would do the job just as well.

Well if you want to buy the gun that uses a projectile you can go all old school if you wish and calculate windage, altitude and all that other fun stuff...personally I'll get the laster rifle and just point and shoot since a small beam of light isn't effected by wind and it travels infinately faster than a bullet...meaning I don't have to lead the target as much when aiming....plus my sniper doesn't give his position away with his energy rifle as easily as yours does with his SDC rifle...

"But laser are silent!" I hear you say. Exactly how loud is a SDC gun when its max range is 7,450 yds? (.50 caliber M107) The retort will be heard, but when you are over 4 miles away, no one is going to really notice. I know that the range is in the extreame and the gun is not as accurate as a laser, but the range is a hell of a lot better, the damage to an SDC structure is impressive and the cost in comparison to a Triax or Wilks sniper rifle would be a no brainer.

Its really loud...your weapon regardless of what it is breaks the freekin sound barrier...especially if its a 50 cal, I dunno if you've actually been hunting or anything but you should go and check out how far away you can hear shots from a hunting rifle. I garuntee your shot will be heard well over a mile away...it may take some time but it will be heard...where as someone using an energy weapon will only have the discharge sound (a slight, Fffzzzzz and a click of the trigger...which you won't hear unless your within maybe 100 feet or so) and the sound of the trigger being pulled. Also your 50 cal has recoil which can affect your shot...an energy rifle has no recoil what-so-ever....so ya...go ahead and take your SDC rifle and go snipe someone...see how that works out for you...

Honestly, I know I'm not going to change opinions here how about things are done in your game. What I am looking for are reasons why this could or couldn't work in a game, what the possible abuses are and where it could really screw things up. I think I've built in enough restrictions to make it a fairly balanced skill for what it is set out to do.

Yes you may not change opinions...your certainly not changing mine lol but it does work if you have the appropriate resources at your disposal...in addition to the rules listed above...use the weapon specialization and mastery rules from the same rifter with the mystic knight on it...+'s to strike and attacks come in handy...it helps though with me because between me and one of my friends we have all but like 5 books in total for the entire game (thats all types like fantasy, rifts, HU, nightbane etc...missing like 5 books total lol).

[Rallan]

Yeah pretty much. It's anyone's guess whether they intended it or not, but as written, the game mechanics in Rifts mean that it's now exceedingly difficult to maim or kill your target on the battlefield with one shot, or to deploy high explosives to wipe out large bodies of men simultaneously. A guy in oldschool Coalition body armor requires an average of three plasma mini-missiles to kill, and a typical MDC tank will survive ten or more of the things, even though these are supposed to be the Rifts equivalent of a LAW. Railguns are meant to be squad-level weapons for mowing the enemy down in droves, but you'll need four full bursts focused on that one single guy in CS armor to be reasonably sure of taking him out (which means a low-level soldier manning the Rifts equivalent of heavy machineguns will be able to average one measly kill every 15 seconds). Packing a laser rifle? Well where a 20th century soldier could expect a guy to go down with one or two hits from an assault rifle and stay down if you put another couple into him, that CS soldier will be operating at full efficiency for an average of six shots before you put him down (or eight shots if you're using a dinky 3D6 damage laser). Hell, even a Glitter Boy's boom gun isn't guarunteed to penetrate most MDC body armors with one hit, although he's at least one of the few guys in the game who's got a better than 50/50 chance of a one-hit kill.

If we decide to be generous and assume that this is a deliberate theme for the setting, it means that Rifts Earth is pretty much the only time in history where armor has outstripped weaponry pretty much across the board. The closest historical equivalent I can think of would be the age of sail, where ships could exchange cannon broadsides for hours before one of them would finally be too disabled to continue the fight. And even then the ability to take damage better than you can dish it out only applied to the ships (their crews generally suffered appalling casualties), and only to that particular kind of attack (launching a fireship into a crowded harbour could devastate entire fleets if you were lucky). But on Rifts Earth, everything can take it better than they can dish it out. Infantry with basic body armour can survive direct railgun and mini-missile strikes. Power Armor, robots, and tanks can take a pummeling from a small squad of opponents for a minute or more before they're disabled. Sharpshooters on the battlefield are no longer the scourge of every soldier who's out in the open, they have to settle for catching their enemy napping when he's wearing no protection.

If THATS your problem Rallan check out my (and relitively simple) Rifts S.D.C. to M.D.C. rules here in my S.D.C. Version of Rifts thread also on the G.M.s forums.

Nah. I have many beefs with Rifts, but that was just an observation.

EDIT: oh and when I want to fix it, I just declare that all MDC energy weapons do double damage and all MDC kinetic and explosive weapons get a x5 damage multiplier. It means mini-missiles and light railguns can actually do what they want (you even have a small but possible chance of one-hit killing power armor with mini-missiles now), laser rifles only take a few shots to drop an infantryman, and the Glitter Boy's Boom Gun becomes a weapon that can gut robots or PA in a single shot. Not something I'd apply to every game for since it makes combat a very risky proposition, and one of the advantage of the by-the-book disparity between weapons and armor was that you didn't have to worry about the PCs accidentally getting wiped out by one unlucky roll of the dice.