PSI Combo: TK:FF and PK questions

[ShadowLogan]

The other day this came up in my gaming session.

A PF Mind-Mage used the following PSI powers in a 1-2 punch:
-Telekinetic ForceField on a group of 4 Animated Skeletons
-Pyrokinesis: Create Flame (Pilliar) inside the TK bubble.

One question came up while discussing this. Can a Mind Mage even use some of his powers to affect things going on inside a TK:FF he created? In this instance the Pilliar of Fire. Or does he/she have to leave a crack open in the bubble to do this? (GM did allow this w/o the crack)

Some PSI powers I can see being blocked (Mind Bolt, Fire Ball, etc) because they would meet up with the shield first and create a strain on it, but would it block PSI powers that would not manifest until reaching the target (like hypnosis).

Another question that came up later is weather the same thing could work on a group of Fire Resistant supernatural creatures (Lasse in this case) by consuming all the oxygen inside?

The idea was put forth because the TK:FF is an air tight bubble, and the pilliar of flame would consume the oxygen inside. However, we where not sure if some applications of Pyrokinesis where energized by air, psychic energy, or a combination.

Spontaneous Combustion would seem to fall in the air category. It just starts the fire.

Fuel Flame/Extinguish Flame seem to involve psychic energy to manipulate.

So is Create Flame energized by just psyhic energy or does it also consume Oxygen.

[Library Ogre]

Reasonably, any power that doesn't need a Line of Effect would be able to be used inside a TKFF. Also reasonably, fire powers would use up oxygen.

However, I wouldn't bother figuring out the effects of oxygen deprivation. It's a pain in the butt.

[Thinyser]

I swear that there was some specific notation in RUE that said this combo is not allowed. I'll check and get back to you...


EDIT ok all it says is that you cannot form the FF around sombody's head to soffocate them.

It also says that things like bio manipulation can be used through the FF as they require line of sight but do not actually "travel" through the field as a lighning bolt or fireball would. Since Pyrokenisis needs LOS and the fire actuall starts at its target point rather than starts at he caster and travels to the target this is a "legal" combo.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No, you can't use physical psionic powers though a TK FF

[Thinyser]

No, you can't use physical psionic powers though a TK FF

Where does it say this?

[asajosh]

If I were GMing I would allow a Mind Mage to affect the area inside HIS OWN TK:FF. To use your example, if a second Mind Mage came along and tried to cast something in side Mind Mage #1's FF, no go. He'd have to go thru it first.

[verdilak]

No, you can't use physical psionic powers though a TK FF

Where does it say this?

Yea Nekira, pony up the proof. Though with what the RUE says, its a lgal combo.

[ShadowLogan]

No, you can't use physical psionic powers though a TK FF

Yes please explain.

I know that some powers are listed as being blocked in RUE (nothing in PF2). However, RUE also states that some powers can penetrate the TK bubble (like teleportation, Astral Projection, etc).

"Create Flame" is not like a Fireball as it can be cast up to 30ft per level out of thin air. To me that is saying its created on the spot, like a line of sight power (Empathic Transmision ex.) and not something like a fireball errupting from their bodies impacting the ground an exploding into a wall/pillar of flame.

The GM did have the TK:FF take damage from the contained flame.

[Tearstone]

No, you can't use physical psionic powers though a TK FF

Still waiting on that proof.

[JuliusCreed]

The other day this came up in my gaming session.

A PF Mind-Mage used the following PSI powers in a 1-2 punch:
-Telekinetic ForceField on a group of 4 Animated Skeletons
-Pyrokinesis: Create Flame (Pilliar) inside the TK bubble.

One question came up while discussing this. Can a Mind Mage even use some of his powers to affect things going on inside a TK:FF he created? In this instance the Pilliar of Fire. Or does he/she have to leave a crack open in the bubble to do this? (GM did allow this w/o the crack)

Some PSI powers I can see being blocked (Mind Bolt, Fire Ball, etc) because they would meet up with the shield first and create a strain on it, but would it block PSI powers that would not manifest until reaching the target (like hypnosis).

Beautiful combo! And, from what I can see, perfectly legal. The TKFF would stop incoming attacks, however, the pillar of flame erupts from the ground at a point of the caster's choosing within range. This makes it a Line of Sight casting. As long as you can see where you want it to come up, such as inside the FF, that's where it comes up.

Another question that came up later is weather the same thing could work on a group of Fire Resistant supernatural creatures (Lasse in this case) by consuming all the oxygen inside?

The idea was put forth because the TK:FF is an air tight bubble, and the pilliar of flame would consume the oxygen inside. However, we where not sure if some applications of Pyrokinesis where energized by air, psychic energy, or a combination.

Spontaneous Combustion would seem to fall in the air category. It just starts the fire.

Fuel Flame/Extinguish Flame seem to involve psychic energy to manipulate.

So is Create Flame energized by just psyhic energy or does it also consume Oxygen.

Flames created by Psionic powers are initially fuelled by ISP to get them up and going. Fuel Flame and Create Flame use ISP to start or increase the power/intensity of a fire. Extinguish Flame uses ISP to put it out. Spontaneous Combustion uses ISP to set an initial spark to flammable materials. Once the flames are burning though, they will consume oxygen. It's just the natural way with fire. Oxygen is the natural fuel for a fire, ISP is just an additional source of fuel. One could speculate that the use of psionic power in the manipulation of fire is actually the mental manipulation of oxygen, increasing or decreasing the flow of air into a fire to create the desired effect. Simply put though, ALL fires, normal, magic or psionic, consume oxygen, as well as anything else that will burn if given the chance.
Good luck and great gaming!

[JuliusCreed]

Reasonably, any power that doesn't need a Line of Effect would be able to be used inside a TKFF. Also reasonably, fire powers would use up oxygen.

However, I wouldn't bother figuring out the effects of oxygen deprivation. It's a pain in the butt.

This. I'd allow the power combo (not really even up for GM interpretation, imo). The book is pretty clear about allowing psychic powers like this to work through the FF. The only possible counter-example I can think of is force fields vs phase powers, which do not work through force fields of any kind. However, that seems unique to phase powers. Furthermore, psychic's don't have a useful "body armor" power. It's reasonable to assume the intention to have psychics slap themselves in a TKFF and cast through it in MD combat.

I also agree that coming up with numbers for oxygen deprivation is annoying.

Not really... PFRPG pg 226... Air Elemental Spell "Vacuum"... "If the vacuum is placed around a person/animal the victim will immediately begin to choke and gasp for air. He will be rendered unconcious in 2 minutes and dies from suffocation within 6 minutes..." Seems pretty simple to me.

[Tearstone]

Furthermore, psychic's don't have a useful "body armor" power.

What about Psychic Body Field?

A skin-tight/form-fitting force field that moves with the psychic, protecting them from head to toe, and allows them to make use of all their gear, weapons, and powers... just deprives you of a sense of touch.

[Khord - Lizard Mage]

Off topic but what about encasing somebody in a TK:FF and setting off an TW Flash Freeze Grenade inside? Instant suspended animation!

[dragonfett]

I, as a GM wouldn't allow for that combination in that order. If TKFF stops other LoS psionic powers, like Bio-Manipulation, I would rule it stops the Pyrokenesis. If the psychic used the powers in the other order, I would allow it as they would still have that psychic link to the PK effect after the TKFF is up. But that is just my 2 cents.

[JuliusCreed]

I, as a GM wouldn't allow for that combination in that order. If TKFF stops other LoS psionic powers, like Bio-Manipulation, I would rule it stops the Pyrokenesis. If the psychic used the powers in the other order, I would allow it as they would still have that psychic link to the PK effect after the TKFF is up. But that is just my 2 cents.

Just a thought, but where in TK:FF does it state that it stops LoS Psi-powers? From what I'm reading, it doesn'r even impair line of vision. Of course, the version I'm reading is in PFRPG, so maybe it's different elsewhere.

[dragonfett]

Sorry, I was going by what Nekira had said. After reading the power, Bio-Manipulation can be used against targets inside of TKFF's.

I did see a flaw in the oxygen deprevation through using PK inside of a TKFF. TKFF can not be used to suffocate someone by creating an air tight bubble (last paragraph of the power, R:UE 1st printing).