Most Munchy...TWs or High Magi?

[Ahulane]

If memory serves I was just overlooking both of those OCC's last week, High Magus would be the one that can't learn any spell lower than 10th level or so correct? Because Lord Magus is the one that can't learn anything higher than 8th if I remember correctly.

A High Magus would need to take a minimum of what, 3 attacks to cast one of his lowest level spells? or is it 2? Regardless...even if a High Magus had the initiative in combat and got to go 1st, his spells wouldn't go off until the 2nd round and they'd drain a large portion of his PPE...

A Techno-Wizard on the other hand just requires a little prep time and he can have magically empowered gear which can be used instantly if he knows what he's doing. Even if the Magus had scrolls pre-made, they still drain PPE if I remember right, so he'd still only be able to get off 1 maybe 2 spells in a fight. I don't understand how your player is making the High Magus all munchkin, even at 4th level he's not going to be able to toss around some good spells, I mean...High Magus is pretty much a support caster...using high level "buffing" spells to enhance their party members, not do direct damage like a Battle Magus or Lord Magus, the High Magus should be sticking to buffing and de-buffing...could you give me an example of what he/she is doing?

A TW in the long run will be far more munchy than the High Magus...if your TW knows has a good imagination, he'll be able to make some pretty crazy weapons and armor that will give him more versitility than the Magus.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I vote Neather.

Weather or not the char is high powered has nothing to do with weather or not the Player is a 'munchkin'. Though the high powered char just might be a kick in the........to hint that the player is munchy.

Munchkin: is a player.

While the high magi are high powered chars to start off with, the TW don't have to creative in his creations to be high powered. Though the more creative TWs tend not to pick the high powered route and make usefull TW stuff.

[Ahulane]

Not exactly correct. They get an assortment of starting spells, some of which are from the lower levels. Mostly armor/defense spells and stuff usefull in creation magic, some general "quality of life" stuff. After that, they can't learn any spells under level 7. They eventually learn all spells from levels 11-15 automatically, and can gain quite a bit of spell knowledge from levels 7-10 as well.

Ok so I'm going to stick with Techno-Wizard for munchkin level in the end.

TW items = multiple uses with minor recharge cost

Scrolls = 1 use with = PPE cost for whatever is cast (annihilate 600 PPE) but all spells used via scrolls are instant cast.

Weather or not the char is high powered has nothing to do with weather or not the Player is a 'munchkin'. Though the high powered char just might be a kick in the........to hint that the player is munchy.

Munchkin: is a player.

While the high magi are high powered chars to start off with, the TW don't have to creative in his creations to be high powered. Though the more creative TWs tend not to pick the high powered route and make usefull TW stuff.

Players may have tendancies to be munchkin yes...but their are OCC's and RCC's that are munchkin enough on their own...and example would be a Jeridu from land of the damned or Mystic Knight and Cosmo Knight or Invincible Guardsman just to name a few things.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip..
Players may have tendancies to be munchkin yes...but their are OCC's and RCC's that are munchkin enough on their own...and example would be a Jeridu from land of the damned or Mystic Knight and Cosmo Knight or Invincible Guardsman just to name a few things.

Those OCC's, RCC's and races are not munchy, they might be high powered, but not munchy.

My point was that while a Class might be high powered it is just that, High powered. Its not the Class's falt that Munchkins, a type of player, Is drawn to them.

If the GM can't ajust you game to match a high powered char then that GM needs practice at it. I would sujest, to that GM, to GM HU for a while to learn how to match the power levels of the NPCs to the PCs.

[Ahulane]

Mystic Knight versus a Rail Gun=not so munchy, unless you're a Dbee eating the corpse.

Not everyone owns a rail gun and mystic knights are THE most feared group of magic mercenary cults on earth...even the coalition is afraid of encountering even a loan knight because they know that 1 of them could drop an entire squad in straight up combat even if they did have rail guns...

Cosmo Knight+GM willing to say "If you do that, you will fall"= Far less munch potential Fallen Knight, even with the options of Psi or Magic.

True, but still...they can go toe to toe with starships...that should speak for itself.

Invincible Guardsman= Your ass is OWNED by an empire of ruthless beings, ruled by an AI who wants to eat the Universe, and wouldn't think twice about turning an anti-starship cannon against your punk ass if you talk back.

I'm going to make a wild guess here and a generalization but...maybe 99% of invincible guardsmen are that OCC by choice if their able to be...the 1% mind controlled slaves that serve as simple cannon fodder...oh and theirs always that story about the Guardsman who was killing cosmo knights!! that and they are one of the few OCC's capable of holding their own against a cosmo-knight.

As for the topic at hand, given prep time, I'd be more worried about a creative High Magus, there is some SERIOUSLY nasty stuff you can do with creative use of a few high level spells.

Think...automated TW defense turrets that shoot (insert desired spell) at hostile targets...a missile that upon detonation (insert desired spell)...a grenade with teh same effect...mines with the same effect...etc...a TW has waaay more munch potential than a straight-up caster.

Those OCC's, RCC's and races are not munchy, they might be high powered, but not munchy.

My point was that while a Class might be high powered it is just that, High powered. Its not the Class's falt that Munchkins, a type of player, Is drawn to them.

If the GM can't ajust you game to match a high powered char then that GM needs practice at it. I would sujest, to that GM, to GM HU for a while to learn how to match the power levels of the NPCs to the PCs.

So your saying that a Dominator isn't munchy?

Being munchkin is basically a degree of overpoweredness...when things start to get out of hand...I'm not disagreeing with you on the fact that players can make even the most basic of OCCs/RCCs munchkin...but their are some that are just inherintly overpowered to the point you have to look at them and go...huh???...why be anything else?

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip..

So your saying that a Dominator isn't munchy?

Being munchkin is basically a degree of overpoweredness...when things start to get out of hand...I'm not disagreeing with you on the fact that players can make even the most basic of OCCs/RCCs munchkin...but their are some that are just inherintly overpowered to the point you have to look at them and go...huh???...why be anything else?

Being a munchkin is a state of mind, more the how many kills my char can get. This is why high powered chars are what Munchkin players want/make. Yah its easy to min/max chars but those chars are rarely playable as Real Role player chars. But they might be able to be Real Men chars.

As for a Dominator class char, I would follow what the drug commerals advise "Just Say No". D's are, in my mind, a NPC class that were introduced as opponents for the high powered char called Cosmo Knights, along with the vacuum wasps, and the invaders. The invincible guardsmen were introduced so the opposite side of the good evil conflict would have something, if not a match, then something to give the CKs a run for their money.

If you are the GM you can veto any char before it is brought into the game. But not to knee jerk high powered char panic throw a fit. Unless that is the only way to get to get your munchkin players (munchkin being a adjetive in this seance not a noun) to make lower powered chars.

[Danger]

It depends on the availability of resources as to how 'munchy' a Techno-Wizard is going to be.

If you're going to be dirt poor, then obviously the High Mage is more munchy.

If you're going to have wealth coming out of your ears, unlimited gemstones, & time isn't a factor, then the Techno-Wizard would be the way to go. Also, in this instance, remember that the TW increases the power of not only your own character, but everyone in the party.

If you're going to have any money at all, TW for the win.

[Ahulane]

Invincible Guardsmen are Soldiers of the Kreeghor, they don't have free reign to just run around and do what they wish, unless they want the Kreeghor after their ass for the rest of their lives.

The Invincible Guardsmen are like assassins and super soldiers...they get sent on special assignments...they are the special forces for the kreeghor military...and they have more rights than your average soldier in that military I can garuntee you

CK's are powerful, but I ask, why is this CK going toe to toe with starships? What did they do? Are there any innocent people on board the ship, passengers, slaves, captives? Bad news if there were.

Its not that they are doing it on a daily basis...its the fact that CK's are capable of going toe to toe with star ships and come out the winner...its a hypothetical...

ominators aren't PC's, and I can think of many ways one could be killed, just have to be creative, or throw a CK or 5 at them.

They aren't suggested PC's...anything in the game is playable given its GM approved...

Every Teleport, Concealment, Summoning, Transformation, Creation, Barrier, and the biggest baddest of the nuke spells are at their disposal, plus gobs of P.P.E., you wanna know what I would do if I had a High Magus and a grudge against a TW?

I wouldn't let him know about it, and I would just start making Zombies and Mummies left and right, get entire hordes of them, get them some cheap, cheap, cheap armor (depending on my alignment, simply murder people for their armor, or rob them for it) and then bum rush the TW with them. (KEKEKEKE)

Read one of the above posts...a TW can do the same things a High Magus can do...just cheaper given time...were talking about an "in the end" situation...which would be stronger in the end...and a TW in the end has more versatility than a High Magus as well as more offensive capability.

[Ahulane]

Versatility...

High Magi have ALL high level spells after a certain point.

You should really look at what some of the higher spells allow one to do with a little creativity.

The biggest drawback to their OCC is that they ONLY cast high level spells...and get a handful of low level spells...also, your all talking about how awsome having high level spells are...600 PPE for annihilate...I don't know about you but Mr. High Magus won't be able to throw one of those around unless they draw from a ley line or have it pre written on a scroll in which case they only get 1 use per scroll and still need 600 PPE!...

A TW who wants to use annihilate just builds a device and pays someone to cast the spell for him initially...bam Annihilate gun...instead of using PPE to recharge it, he also has pre-built ammunition for the weapon...effectivly making the caster gun/bullets from outlaw star...and guess what? that annihilate shot from the gun now imparts a -10 to anyone its fired at...You talk about versitility...but like I said...anything a High Magus (or any mage for that matter) can do, a TW can do as well but cheaper and more effectively...They can also boost their own PPE base by building PPE storing clothing and items, and this isn't D&D where there is a 2 ring minimum or whatever...you can pack on as much crap as you can hold.

*High Magus looks at the TW's camp, and casts Anti-Magic Cloud over the top of it, then laughs and laughs*

*TW wonders why the High Magus is laughing and blasts him with standard ammunition from his TW guns.*

You don't think that they would be smart enough to do something like that? Virtually any conventional gun turned into a TW weapon will usually still be able to use standard ammunition, the the Hellfire Shotgun in New West...better hope the High Magus wasn't so stupid as to walk over to the TW's camp without armor or an armor spell already in place, otherwise he's going to have a bad day.

[DhAkael]

who cares?

[DhAkael]

Just an example: ever asked yourself if you could shoot someone on the other side of a Mystic Portal? Nothing in the book says you couldn't do that, or toss a grenade, or angry D-bee through one.

Been there, done that.
Gave out muchos exp. for it too.
Mind you...in a case like that, the door "swings both ways". The mage was quite shocked when the Mechanoid on the other side tossed the grenade back at him via TK

[Grell]

It's a tough call, but given the prep time I'd say TW has way more munchkin potential.

Bear in mind that TW's can collaborate with other mages to incorporate spells that they themselves don't know. Plus their device applications are limited by nothing other than their imaginations and the GM.

TW Annihlation Blade.

[Danger]

Versatility...

High Magi have ALL high level spells after a certain point.

You should really look at what some of the higher spells allow one to do with a little creativity.

*High Magus looks at the TW's camp, and casts Anti-Magic Cloud over the top of it, then laughs and laughs*

Uh, you do realize that the TW could do the same thing if he found Mr. High Mage's camp. So, what's your point?

Also, the TW has virtually unlimited PPE with his charged TW items.

Tricked-Out Techno-Wizard for the win.

[Danger]

Why would the high magus have been anywhere near the camp?

No, I had a horde of zombies shooting flaming arrows into the camp from outside the radius of the Anti-Magic cloud.

Oh, and I have a few TW weapons of my own, nothing preventing a high magus from having them too.

Again though, I REALLY think you need to look over some creative uses for the higher level spells you're scoffing at, and getting P.P.E. isn't that hard, Energy Sphere, Talisman, Human Sacrifice anyone?

All of those tricks can be done by the Techno-Wizard, and done cheaper. Also, you're assuming that the TW doesn't have high-level spells. And, even better, TW Gear made with high-level spells.

If you get TW gear, I get high level spells. That's a fair trade.

The versatility of the TW is what makes him superior to the High Mage. Again, remember that the TW can increase the power of the whole party with TW gear. The High Mage can't compete with that, regardless of what spell he has.

[Ahulane]

Just going by the books, its a lot simpler for a high magus to get a TW weapon than a TW to get high level magics.

Ok well lets use this as an example...the OP said that his High Magus in his game was level 4 and he's got a high power/munchy thing going...so make a level 4 High Magus and a level 4 TW and outfit them with gear appropriate for their levels and experience/rp time that the OP's player has and then have them duke it out...I'm pretty sure the High Magus will lose since he doesn't have the natural PPE base required to cast alot of his higher level spells unless given time to draw or sacrifice...

Why do you assume a high magus wouldn't have talismans around for p.p.e. batteries, magic spheres, or even just sacrifices for the evil ones.

Given your camp scenario who says the TW doesn't have some magically hidden automated defense turrets guarding his base that you don't know about? or other such devices.

Its really just going to be down to the player how munchy either OCC will be, but if you just make a general comparison going from 1st level to 15th...the TW will always have the upper hand with the amount of gadgets and gizmo's he can make plus...if he wanted to just go pure caster and not make alot of TW weapons or what-not, he could just make a ton of jewelry to hold vast amounts of PPE...so as a pure caster...a TW could still be more powerful than a High Magus because he wouldn't be limited to just high level spells and he wouldn't need to rely on other methods of gaining PPE such as sacrifices or drawing from a ley line...he could just get a load of diamonds and emeralds and hook them up to a tripod of some sort and have it act as a giant battery which holds thousands of PPE and then have a mechanism that when placed near a ley line...or connected to one via a cord or pipe of some kind draws hundreds of PPE per minute/hour when its base is depleted...no high magus can do that...after the TW makes that tripod he could attach some weapons to it as well thats powered by the device...

A TW literally has limitless possibilities for his inventions...while a High Magus is limited to only end level spells with a handful of low level ones...sure he can buy TW items...but he's not going to be getting anything like that...ever...that kind of device would be something the Splugorth would enslave the TW for...

[Ahulane]

Essentially thats how they work, TW's are limited only by imagination, High Magus is limited to spell parameters and only get a specific selection, ya they get some beefy spells but TW's can get those same spells with a little extra time invested.

I remember reading a thread about a TW who got some blood shaman spells and created a blood pump that when hooked up to a water source would convert said water into actual blood at a 5th level caster ability...it basically could supply an entire vampire army and eliminate their need to travel to feed. Just take a look at some of the varients for TW's in rifters...Techno-Shifter...they build a giant summoning device that traps entities in gemstones which they then use to power their TW devices...or Seduced TW's which are supernatural borg zombie things...Necro-Tech...make a device that when a corpse is hooked up to it and someone steps on a platform or whatever they get Strength of the Dead placed cast on them @ specified level proficiency basically turning them into a tank instantly if the right kinds of corpses can be found...in addition it could cast Necro-Armor when activated and is connected to the crazy tripod PPE generator...how crazy would that be if you stumbled across a jacked up zombie and its got like 100+ or more MDC as initial armor because it has Necro-Armor on it...and if you get past that since you found a giants corpse it now has 300+ extra SDC and its skull was replaced by one of the flaming eye skull items you can make, so now its got a ranged attack and you attach a small PPE battery to it so it can fire multiple shots!

Sure a High Magus can modify existing spells or create his own, but he can't do anything like that with the same kinds of spells.