Can a Machine Man become a Cosmo-Knight?

[asajosh]

After reading some posts and having a debate with my GM, I think that if the Forge wants to use a Machine Man, it can (they are not specifically forbidden in the Cosmo Knight write up).
The question then becomes, does that Machine Man retain his PPE (or fraction thereof, as written) if he falls? Again I say, Yes. The transformation from the Forge would leave some PPE (as written in the Fallen Knight OCC).
Thoughts? Has this come up in a campaign of yours?

[Braden Campbell]

The larger issue for me, and the thing that you and your group will have to determine is: do the Machine Men have souls?

If they do, and are more than just the sum of their programming and polymimetic alloy bodies, then yes, I would allow them to become Heralds of the Forge.

If they are just machines, albeit fantastic machines, then I would rule that the Cosmic Forge does not or cannot turn them into Cosmo Knights anymore than it would a starship's computer.

GM's call, really.

[asajosh]

The larger issue for me, and the thing that you and your group will have to determine is: do the Machine Men have souls?

If they do, and are more than just the sum of their programming and polymimetic alloy bodies, then yes, I would allow them to become Heralds of the Forge.

If they are just machines, albeit fantastic machines, then I would rule that the Cosmic Forge does not or cannot turn them into Cosmo Knights anymore than it would a starship's computer.

GM's call, really.

Nope, they are a race, says so... Machine Man RCC

Seriously
Phase World page 99 under the heading Becoming a Cosmo-Knight
"Humans, kreegor, noro have all been chosen, as have members of nearly every species in the Megaverse; the only exceptions are supernatural creatures like dragons, demons and Prometheans, again for reasons unknown."

EDIT: Maybe said Machine Man would be considered some crazy form of Tech Wizardry (like the Forge itself may be).

[asajosh]

So... wait.... What about a rogue Mechanoid? Could the Forge make them a herald?

Sure, why not? The Mechanoids are cybernetic organisms right? My mechanoids books is... elsewhere.

[asajosh]

Well, they're a fleshy brain thing that controls some sort of robotic frame or something. I once played a pair in a friend's game and they were hiding in modified NGR cyborg frames.

Neat.
I think, given all the other choices in the Megaverse, a Mechanoid would be near the bottom of the list for Cosmo Knight candidacy, but they aren't supernatureal so it is possible (if you subscribe to my loose interpretation of the writeup).

[asajosh]

I'll have to read-up on it and think how it would really effect the Mechanoid and their abilities overall...

It would completely re-write them as a Cosmo-Knight with their powers and vulnerabilities. All other psionics, magic, etc are lost. They'd just look like a Mechanoid.

[asajosh]

I'll have to read-up on it and think how it would really effect the Mechanoid and their abilities overall...

It would completely re-write them as a Cosmo-Knight with their powers and vulnerabilities. All other psionics, magic, etc are lost. They'd just look like a Mechanoid.

i personally think it would be interesting to see just the organism inside of the mechanoid become a Cosmo knight talking about some odd looking cosmic armor

IIRC, without the robot suit, Mechanoids are pretty much useless blobs of flesh. Not exactly Cosmo-Knight material. Its not impossible, but again considdering all the canditates in the Megaverse, Mechanoids are pretty low on the list.

[Nekira Sudacne]

They're not a race, they're just a machine made to imitate one.

[asajosh]

but i'm a useless blob of flesh...

Yer not useless

...and i think i'm cosmo knight material

Im sure you think you are.

[Nekira Sudacne]

They're not a race, they're just a machine made to imitate one.

read the mechanoids source book made for rifts they are living beings inside those machines there are even cut aways so you can get a peak at the ugly little critters

The MECHANOIDS are.

I was talking about Machine People.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yes, MM are sentient.

Souls?... if no PPE then no soul. (Haydon from the RT books is an example of this concept, they were beings that couldn't transend this physical plane)

MM becoming a Cosmo K.? That would be up to the GM of the game.

The mechanoids are Cyberized organics.

If a Mechanoid became a CK, I can see it's armor looking like the borg body it had before it became a CK, and it staying in it All The Time. Maybe it was the changin of some minions to CKs that casued the mass killings of old mechanoids in Mechinoides Space's desine concept.

[asajosh]

They're not a race, they're just a machine made to imitate one.

read the mechanoids source book made for rifts they are living beings inside those machines there are even cut aways so you can get a peak at the ugly little critters

The MECHANOIDS are.

I was talking about Machine People.

That's rather harsh, I think the machine people would argue differently.

[Nekira Sudacne]

They're not a race, they're just a machine made to imitate one.

read the mechanoids source book made for rifts they are living beings inside those machines there are even cut aways so you can get a peak at the ugly little critters

The MECHANOIDS are.

I was talking about Machine People.

That's rather harsh, I think the machine people would argue differently.

Depends on how you define life.

I don't define sentiance as life, so while something can be sentiant, that dosn't make them alive.

[DocS]

If Androids can use green lantern rings, they can also be cosmo-knights.

Or, look at it this way, The cosmic forge is sentient and near omnipotent, it can make an Egg McMuffin a cosmo-knight if it wants. Machine man is easy peasy. And if a mechanoid is good enough, or simply suits the Forge's purposes... sure.

[asajosh]

Okies I think this needs addressing:
Who's to say Machine People don't have a soul? The Cosmic Forge may be an incredibly advanced TW device and manipulates PPE like none other. Why couldn't It just create a soul for said Machine Person during th process of Cosmo Knight conversion?

[dragon_blaze_99]

but i'm a useless blob of flesh...

Yer not useless

...and i think i'm cosmo knight material

Im sure you think you are.

I'd let you be a cosmo knight because you and I are almost the only ones doing the Word Association still

[asajosh]

but i'm a useless blob of flesh...

Yer not useless

...and i think i'm cosmo knight material

Im sure you think you are.

I'd let you be a cosmo knight because you and I are almost the only ones doing the Word Association still

Word.

[asajosh]

but i'm a useless blob of flesh...

Yer not useless

...and i think i'm cosmo knight material

Im sure you think you are.

I'd let you be a cosmo knight because you and I are almost the only ones doing the Word Association still

yes sir and you can be a promethian time master

Whats wrong with that? Its a TOTALLY valid OCC (Phase World page 28).

[asajosh]

Okies the both of you (Bob and Nekira):
Why are you alive and a machine man is not?
You are powered electrically
They are powered Electrically

YOu are a combination of components from two parent organisms, displaying traits of both.
They are a combination of two parent organisms, combining traits from both.

"Because they are machines" is at best an uninspired argument. Are you not a machine of a different sort, meat instead of metal?

And before anyone else waves the "Soul" Flag at me, how do you know machine men do or do not have a "Soul"? How do you know that you have or have not a soul? At best, you merely believe you have one and therefore machine men do not. If it's strictly a Judeo-Christian interpretation of the soul, bear in mind that some religoens teach that a soul is not granted at birth but rather earned through a lifetime of right speech and right deeds.

Lastly, the closest thing to a "Supreme Being" in canon IS the Forge itself, which may be a TW device. Stare at the sky and ponder that for a while.

[asajosh]

Okies the both of you (Bob and Nekira):
Why are you alive and a machine man is not?
You are powered electrically
They are powered Electrically

YOu are a combination of components from two parent organisms, displaying traits of both.
They are a combination of two parent organisms, combining traits from both.

"Because they are machines" is at best an uninspired argument. Are you not a machine of a different sort, meat instead of metal?

And before anyone else waves the "Soul" Flag at me, how do you know machine men do or do not have a "Soul"? How do you know that you have or have not a soul? At best, you merely believe you have one and therefore machine men do not. If it's strictly a Judeo-Christian interpretation of the soul, bear in mind that some religoens teach that a soul is not granted at birth but rather earned through a lifetime of right speech and right deeds.

Lastly, the closest thing to a "Supreme Being" in canon IS the Forge itself, which may be a TW device. Stare at the sky and ponder that for a while.

i actually have answer for you on this one josh the human brain generates alpha waves a machine will not even the most complex computers and in my humble opinion that our souls are nothing but said radiant energy i can expand this out more so it makes more sense for you my friend but i have spent long hours staring at the sky pondering the nature of our souls and our purpose and thats my theory not saying i'm right but thats how i feel and thats why in my game there is no such thing as robot soul

What are alpha (and beta) waves but a form of EM radiation? All electronic circuits have a radiant electric "hum".
Next?
And in Rifts there's no such thing as a soul anyway, its all just PPE buddy!

EDIT: another implication about your post troubles me bob, your soul is a byproduct of brain function? What about people in a vegetative state? they somehow lose their souls? Or, in game terms, someone hit with petrification. Statues don't produce any brain waves. Has the victim lost his soul as a result? What happens if petrification is reversed? They are now a souless beast? I suggest in the future not trying to use science or biology to explain the philosophical.

Edit 2: And its fine in yer game that there's no such thing as a robot soul, I didn't see it mentioned in Becoming a Cosmo-Knight where it says a soul is required

[asajosh]

Okies the both of you (Bob and Nekira):
Why are you alive and a machine man is not?
You are powered electrically
They are powered Electrically

YOu are a combination of components from two parent organisms, displaying traits of both.
They are a combination of two parent organisms, combining traits from both.

"Because they are machines" is at best an uninspired argument. Are you not a machine of a different sort, meat instead of metal?

And before anyone else waves the "Soul" Flag at me, how do you know machine men do or do not have a "Soul"? How do you know that you have or have not a soul? At best, you merely believe you have one and therefore machine men do not. If it's strictly a Judeo-Christian interpretation of the soul, bear in mind that some religoens teach that a soul is not granted at birth but rather earned through a lifetime of right speech and right deeds.

Lastly, the closest thing to a "Supreme Being" in canon IS the Forge itself, which may be a TW device. Stare at the sky and ponder that for a while.

i actually have answer for you on this one josh the human brain generates alpha waves a machine will not even the most complex computers and in my humble opinion that our souls are nothing but said radiant energy i can expand this out more so it makes more sense for you my friend but i have spent long hours staring at the sky pondering the nature of our souls and our purpose and thats my theory not saying i'm right but thats how i feel and thats why in my game there is no such thing as robot soul

What are alpha (and beta) waves but a form of EM radiation? All electronic circuits have a radiant electric "hum".
Next?
And in Rifts there's no such thing as a soul anyway, its all just PPE buddy!

EDIT: another implication about your post troubles me bob, your soul is a byproduct of brain function? What about people in a vegetative state? they somehow lose their souls? Or, in game terms, someone hit with petrification. Statues don't produce any brain waves. Has the victim lost his soul as a result? What happens if petrification is reversed? They are now a souless beast? I suggest in the future not trying to use science or biology to explain the philosophical.

Edit 2: And its fine in yer game that there's no such thing as a robot soul, I didn't see it mentioned in Becoming a Cosmo-Knight where it says a soul is required

1. true alpha and beta waves are in fact EM radiation however computers and electronics have quite different radiation signatures=no soul
2. yup (before i say this i know people are gonna hate me for saying this) i think if you are a vegetable your soul moves on its just a shell being left alive
3. when u get petrified your soul gos to a magic soul cubby
4. philosophy like magic is just a word for science and biology we haven't figured out yet

1. any sources to back this up? other then star trek that is.
2. what happens when they come out of the vegetative state? it does happen.
3. thats the stupidest thing i've ever heard.
4. Actually Philosophy is quite well defined.

If your answer is: "Because I don't want to allow robots and machines with PPE in my game" just stick with that. the canon is somewhat hazy. Please don't try to rationalize what is essentially your opinion with pseudo-science.

[asajosh]

if anything your website reference bolsters my notion that brain waves are very similar to EM radiation. the graph they provide looks awfly similar to a sloppy saw tooth wave to me. Neat how the osciliscope is used to meter both effects.

No magic robots in your game, fine i get it.

Oh Recovery from a vegetative state? http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/mar/05031408.html

and this one is better:
http://www.cwu.edu/~chem/courses/Chem56 ... final.html
See the pargraph entitled Recovery from a Vegetative State.

[asajosh]

if anything your website reference bolsters my notion that brain waves are very similar to EM radiation. the graph they provide looks awfly similar to a sloppy saw tooth wave to me. Neat how the osciliscope is used to meter both effects.

No magic robots in your game, fine i get it.

similar is not the same and i never said no magic robots i just said they would require more mundane alterations not some disembodied forge just giving a bewitched style nose tweak and there you go

No amount of study is gonna allow a TW to alteraa cretures nature, but the forge does exactly that when it makes a cosmo knight.

Look we're not gonna see eye to eye on this, so long as the canon stays murky lets just agree to disagree shall we?

[asajosh]

if anything your website reference bolsters my notion that brain waves are very similar to EM radiation. the graph they provide looks awfly similar to a sloppy saw tooth wave to me. Neat how the osciliscope is used to meter both effects.

No magic robots in your game, fine i get it.

similar is not the same and i never said no magic robots i just said they would require more mundane alterations not some disembodied forge just giving a bewitched style nose tweak and there you go

No amount of study is gonna allow a TW to alteraa cretures nature, but the forge does exactly that when it makes a cosmo knight.

adding a Batterie is not altering nature we have foreign matter inserted into our body's all the time with out it being rejected look to prosthetics or for game mechanics look into cybernetics its not unprecedented

Its adding a PPE battery into a being that has no magical potential. A machine man cannot meld with such a thing. If I install an emerald into a Skelebot can that skelebot now cast spells? no

[asajosh]

Fascinating and the topic for another thread perhaps, but hte point of this one is Can a Machine Man become a cosmo knight?
We seem to be more or less split down the middle and its well established that its a no go in your game. So the answer appears to be "Depends on the GM" hehe.

[asajosh]

Fascinating and the topic for another thread perhaps, but hte point of this one is Can a Machine Man become a cosmo knight?
We seem to be more or less split down the middle and its well established that its a no go in your game. So the answer appears to be "Depends on the GM" hehe.

but its not a no go i just put a restriction on it

Show me one reference where the Cosmic Forge needs any outside help to make a cosmo knight out of anything. Your reason makes no sense to me and I won't be using it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If Androids can use green lantern rings, they can also be cosmo-knights.

This isn't DC, hence, irrelevant.

Or, look at it this way, The cosmic forge is sentient and near omnipotent, it can make an Egg McMuffin a cosmo-knight if it wants. Machine man is easy peasy. And if a mechanoid is good enough, or simply suits the Forge's purposes... sure.

No, it is not omnipotent, and it cannot do that.

Regards, Nekira.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Okies I think this needs addressing:
Who's to say Machine People don't have a soul? The Cosmic Forge may be an incredibly advanced TW device and manipulates PPE like none other. Why couldn't It just create a soul for said Machine Person during th process of Cosmo Knight conversion?

Contrary, who's to say they do?

create a soul? sure, why not. Then it couldn't stay inside the machine body, so irrelevant.

Now, what'd be the point?

If your gonna MAKE a soul, and a body, why bother with an imperfect machine and just make one however you want?

[asajosh]

Okies I think this needs addressing:
Who's to say Machine People don't have a soul? The Cosmic Forge may be an incredibly advanced TW device and manipulates PPE like none other. Why couldn't It just create a soul for said Machine Person during th process of Cosmo Knight conversion?

Contrary, who's to say they do?

create a soul? sure, why not. Then it couldn't stay inside the machine body, so irrelevant.

Now, what'd be the point?

If your gonna MAKE a soul, and a body, why bother with an imperfect machine and just make one however you want?

As soon as you can prove to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you have a soul, I'll drop it (even though this soul business is irreleveant to the cration of a Cosmo Knight). Oh and: "I really REALLY think I have one" is not an argument.

And now with DamonS agreeing with me, I'm reconsiddering my whole position

[Qev]

Considering the Machine People are "living machines" constructed of "living metal", and that no restriction under the Cosmo Knight OCC seems to apply to them, I don't see why the Forge couldn't grant its power to a machine person.

[asajosh]

Considering the Machine People are "living machines" constructed of "living metal", and that no restriction under the Cosmo Knight OCC seems to apply to them, I don't see why the Forge couldn't grant its power to a machine person.

More or less exactly what I'm saying! Restriction saus No Supernaatural and No Prometheans.

[asajosh]

Considering the Machine People are "living machines" constructed of "living metal", and that no restriction under the Cosmo Knight OCC seems to apply to them, I don't see why the Forge couldn't grant its power to a machine person.

More or less exactly what I'm saying! Restriction saus No Supernaatural and No Prometheans.

you know if you keep up with these compelling arguments i might just have to send one to break up your little dark kingdom you and the promethean are forming

[begin 1812 Overture]
[noble voice]

It'd be worth firey doom to get the precident in your game!

[/noble voice]
[/1812 Overture]

[cornholioprime]

The Cosmic Forge is the PINNACLE of super-science, and so (apparently/allegedly) powerful in its own right that it could probably stand up to the Old Ones themselves.

Furthermore, there are already Cosmo-Knights whose Cosmo-bodies are made of metal and who can switch back to their completely organic "disguises" at will.

It should the height of child's play for the Forge to select Machine Men if it so chooses....but just like everyone else, they should have their natural stats replaced by Cosmo-Knight ones.

Oh, and by the way: There's NOTHING whatsoevr in the Cosmo-Knight article that decrees that you HAVE to be an actual living creature (obviously, supernatural unliving creatures like Elementals and the Undead would be precluded) OR have a soul to be one.

[asajosh]

VENDETTA!!!

LoL Revenge seems to be a popular motive in our campaigns!

[Eryk Stormbright]

everyone here seems to have missed the key to this puzzle... you have all debated what is in the cosmo knight OCC, and wether or not it says that a machine man can or cannot be a CK

Did anyone here happen to read the MM RCC? i guess not.. because had you... you would see that the machine man is NOT ALLOWED to have OCCs.... they are not listed as having ANY OCC options.. a machine man is a machine man and thats all he is

Oh and just to clear up the debate... the machine men ARE a race... says so in the first paragraph, wether or not they have souls is a debate best left to greek philosophers... but a race they assuridly are... so sayith C.J.Carella

PW p77 "the machine people ARE a RACE of thinking, fully intelligent machines. They are metallic CREATURES able to feel emotions and who can be as heroic or villainous as any breathing being"

i'm not seeing where it says they Can't have an OOC, since on pg 78 right above where it says that they are available as a PC, that "Of the thousands of freedom fighters, many regret battling their brothers and sisters but believe in the higher couse of freedom and relative peace. Only a tiny handfull are non-allied Freebooters, Mercenaries, and Adventurers." now.. seems to me that Freedom Fighters is an OOC, like Mercenaries and "other Adventurers" so i would have to say they could take the CK OOC just like any other, just my two cents

[Eryk Stormbright]

well i guess we just see things differently. sure running drugs might not make you a smuggler starting off.. but do it long enough and you would start to learn the different skill sets that make a smuggler a smuggler. same thing with Any OOC.

[Eryk Stormbright]

i'll agree with you on that the RCC itself doesn't say that you can get an OCC so i'd have to say that it's up to the GM of the game. i wouldn't have a problem with a MM becoming a CK ... after all just as KS says, if you don't like or agree with a rule in the books, change it to suit the needs or the wants of your games.

[Eryk Stormbright]

I have to say... most races don't say that they CAN be a Cosmo Knight... however, under Cosmo Knight it says specifically races that can't be a Cosmo Knight. If an Ogre from Palladium Fantasy ended up in Phase World, the Forge could contact them and make them into a Cosmo Knight. This has nothing to do with if the race lists it as an applicable OCC, it has to do with the OOC not listing them as a race that isn't applicable.

Really, I want to say, Cosmo Knight and Fallen Knight I feel would be better listed as an RCC, IMHO.

*nod nod* i would have to agree, all save for the CK and Fallen Knight being a RCC. i just can't make sence of that one.

[Eryk Stormbright]

true.. but juicer and FCBs aren't listed as RCCs in the main book, they are just different classes most Races can take

[Eryk Stormbright]

nope.. only "RCCs" in RUE are dragons pg 43

[dragon_blaze_99]

A Human Cosmo-Knight isn't a Human anymore.

A Kreeghor Cosmo-Knight isn't a Kreeghor anymore.

A Machine-Man Cosmo-Knight isn't a Machine-Man anymore.

They're Cosmo-Knights, noone says "I think I'm going to take up CK next level, I hear it has great bonuses."

You make the character as a CK, or through GM discretion you get chosen to become a CK, but you are no longer your old race in anything except appearance.

Could a MM become a CK? Yes.

Would the Forge choose a MM? Probably not, they are already sufficiently powerful in their own right, and they would no longer have all the little neat MM abilities, which I think everyone is overlooking.

You don't keep the machine melding, the reshaping, the powering energy weapons.

You are melted down and reborn of fire.

Think of it this way, a human and a pencil both contain Carbon.

If you extracted that Carbon and used the Carbon from each to make a sword, would the resulting swords be humans or pencils?

thats the perfect way to put it!!!!!!!!

[Eryk Stormbright]

the powers of the MM i really hadn't thought about, i was just going by the Race... if the MM could actually become a CK or not.