Doing away with the Level system?

[JTwig]

I know that Palladium has gotten a lot of flak for its antiquated character advancement system. Has anyone ever tried to come up with a different system of character advancement? If so did it work? Can you give any examples?

I've played with the idea, kind of half heartedly since I'm a Palladium fanboy, this is what I came up with. It extremely rough, and not even close to being play test.

Experience Chart:

Stat Increased / Cost / Benefit
Attributes*/ current rating x6/ adds 1d4
Skills, trained/ current rating x2.5/ gain next percentage increase
Skills, untrained/ current rating x3/ gain next percentage increase
O.C.C. Skill/ current rating/ gain next percentage increase
New Skill, trained/ Starting Percentage x2.5/ gain skill at base percentage
New Skill, untrained/ Starting percentage x3/ gains skill at base percentage
New Skill w/o Per./ 80 Experience/ gaines skill
New Skill w/o untrained/ 100 Experience/ gaines skill
Hit Points /current rating x2.5/ adds 2d4
P.P.E. /current rating x3/ adds 2d6
*attributes are limited to 30, excluding PS.

Of course I'm still working on training times and what not. Of course I never plan on actually using this, guess I'm just looking to bounce some ideas around with some people as a brain exercise. Who knows someone might have an idea or make a comment that might cause me or someone else to seriously work on an alternative system of character advancement.

[Nekira Sudacne]

a lot of flack? Where? When?

I've heard scattered complaints, but i'd hardly call it "antiquitated"

There are only 2 basic systems to character advancement: Point buy and leveling. one isn't older or better than the other, just different meaothods for the point buy.

[asajosh]

Reading Nekira and Matty's posts methinks a post got deleted after DarkSaint...

[Lukterran]

The only other leveling system that I do like, is from a PC game the "Elder Scrolls" series.

It still has levels, but it requires that you actually use your skills in order to progress in them, and that in order to level you have to use your major class skills.

This is great for a PC which can easily keep track of all the data for you, however for a regular GM this would be a nightmare and bogging down a game greatly.

Also the temptation would be there for many PCs to try and pump their skills be setting down in the back of a shop and whittling away using carpentry or some other skill to try and advance faster.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

a lot of flack? Where? When?

I've heard scattered complaints, but i'd hardly call it "antiquitated"

There are only 2 basic systems to character advancement: Point buy and leveling. one isn't older or better than the other, just different meaothods for the point buy.

Well said.



~Josh

[Dustin Fireblade]

I know that Palladium has gotten a lot of flak for its antiquated character advancement system. Has anyone ever tried to come up with a different system of character advancement? If so did it work? Can you give any examples?

In Rifter #33 or maybe #34 three is a article on Air Combat in Rifts. Tucked in with that is a simple method for advancing individual skills.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Reading Nekira and Matty's posts methinks a post got deleted after DarkSaint...

I think they are responding to Jtwig's opening statement. I think.

Most of the comments I have seen have been on RPG.net

[asajosh]

yarr must read with eyes open...

[JTwig]

a lot of flack? Where? When?

I've heard scattered complaints, but i'd hardly call it "antiquitated"

There are only 2 basic systems to character advancement: Point buy and leveling. one isn't older or better than the other, just different meaothods for the point buy.

I speaking from what I've heard on other boards from those who are critical of the Palladium system. You have to admit that even many of the games that use a similar leveling system have gone back and made many updates and improvements to the process. Which gives Palladium a kind of old school feel. I'm not critizing Palladium, I'm a huge fan and enjoy the system as is.

I never said that any way was better (though it seems I've hit a nerve). I'm just doing some creative exercising, and was hoping to engage is some creative discussion. If you don't like what I posted or think the leveling system is perfect or fine, great! Like I said I thoroughly enjoy the Palladium systems as it is, I was just trying something different and to hear back from other about some of the things they have tried.

[KillWatch]

I still use levels but my skills advance independently as they are used at 1% per 10 uses. I also incorporated Skill Points Per Level based on IQ

[Rallan]

I still use levels but my skills advance independently as they are used at 1% per 10 uses. I also incorporated Skill Points Per Level based on IQ

That just opens things up to way too much abuse. That sort of use-based skill advancement works well in video games where the tradeoff for skill grinding is the fact that it's a long and boring process. But in an RPG it doesn't really take much time to say "Okay we got a week of downtime before our contact arrives in town? Yeah I'm gonna give the car a thorough maintenance job, and then keep repeating the process all week for a few points on my skill".

[KillWatch]

it would if that's how I use it.
You get 1% per 10 rolls
Using the car metaphore, if the car is in good shape and has been maintined then there isn't much they can do. Kind of like changing a tire. Sure you do it once but then the rest is just checking to make sure its still there. Now if it's a POS then the rolls are going to be needed, parts are going to be needed etc. I would rule that brief scan of vehicle is worth 1 roll, while a thorough inspection would require 5 successful rolls at -25.

[Syndicate]

a lot of flack? Where? When?

I've heard scattered complaints, but i'd hardly call it "antiquitated"

There are only 2 basic systems to character advancement: Point buy and leveling. one isn't older or better than the other, just different meaothods for the point buy.

I speaking from what I've heard on other boards from those who are critical of the Palladium system. You have to admit that even many of the games that use a similar leveling system have gone back and made many updates and improvements to the process. Which gives Palladium a kind of old school feel. I'm not critizing Palladium, I'm a huge fan and enjoy the system as is.

I never said that any way was better (though it seems I've hit a nerve). I'm just doing some creative exercising, and was hoping to engage is some creative discussion. If you don't like what I posted or think the leveling system is perfect or fine, great! Like I said I thoroughly enjoy the Palladium systems as it is, I was just trying something different and to hear back from other about some of the things they have tried.

I feel your pain Twig...

[Dustin Fireblade]

I still use levels but my skills advance independently as they are used at 1% per 10 uses. I also incorporated Skill Points Per Level based on IQ

That just opens things up to way too much abuse.

Only if you are a incompetent GM*. Besides the current Palladium system states 25 points per skill use or something like that. The idea is that the skill needs to be used in a meaningful way to get those points though. As long as a GM is requiring that meaningful use of skills, I see nothing wrong with skills adavancing independently.

*Not saying Rallan is - just a general statement.

[Shorty Lickens]

Darn, both of my suggestions have already been discussed.
The Karma system from Shadowrun is pretty typical of point-buying.
It works alright provided you know when and how to give the karma points. The generic rule in the 3rd edition rulebook was 1 or 2 points to each PC at the end of an adventure, depending on how much they were challenged. But this isnt always balanced.
What constitutes a complete adventure? As many of us who have played Shadowrun know: Things often change in the middle of a run, and you may find your objectives and goals adjusted along with them.
And what about really good roleplaying and use of skills and abilities by individuals?
In the experience/level system, they would get maybe a hundred or more XP's as a bonus for playing better than the other characters.
But would they really deserve one whole extra karma point? One point of karma is actually a lot in the Shadowrun system.

The other idea was leveling individual skills like in the Elder Scrolls games. But those games have a computer keeping track (in real time) of how your skills are doing.
Much more complicated on table top, especially for a GM who likes to keep the action moving.

I cant recall if it was the GM's guide or Main Book that Kevin S discusses why he used the XP and level system but he made it make sense and I will stick with it.

[Nightmaster]

i don't really have a problem with the leveling system ... as mentioned earlier, there are only so many ways to increase a PCs abilities over time and it all boils down to a leveling system of some kind.

what i would rather see is a classless Palladium system.

Indeed, an classless system would be perfect for Palladium games.

Now that I think about it the concept of a classless system is easy to come by. Except for the magic and psi characters, the remaining character concepts are defined only by the skills each of then have at 1st level and the skills they are allowed to take. Pretty much the same for all of then.

[JTwig]

i don't really have a problem with the leveling system ... as mentioned earlier, there are only so many ways to increase a PCs abilities over time and it all boils down to a leveling system of some kind.

what i would rather see is a classless Palladium system.

Indeed, an classless system would be perfect for Palladium games.

Now that I think about it the concept of a classless system is easy to come by. Except for the magic and psi characters, the remaining character concepts are defined only by the skills each of then have at 1st level and the skills they are allowed to take. Pretty much the same for all of then.

I hadn't thought about a classless system, that an interesting idea.

[Lukterran]

going classless has the huge benefit of eliminating all of those useless OCCs that are exactly the same as another OCC.

"oh look i swapped out a few skills, now we need a new OCC. but what should we call it? how about a soldier?"

"already got dozens of those."

"okay then how about a mercenary or better yet a new head hunter!"

"is that really necessary."

"lets see ... do we have a merchant warrior yet?"

"does the privateer, merchant marine or merchant count?"

"nah. this is a merchant warrior! it's totaly different."

"whatever ..."

I'd like to see a few more truely unique new magic classes though.

Kind of how a Tattoo Man or a Conjuror is completely different than a Wizard; or a Techno-Wizard is completely different than a Summoner. A new form of magic and not just another spellcaster with different spells.

[JTwig]

going classless has the huge benefit of eliminating all of those useless OCCs that are exactly the same as another OCC.

"oh look i swapped out a few skills, now we need a new OCC. but what should we call it? how about a soldier?"

"already got dozens of those."

"okay then how about a mercenary or better yet a new head hunter!"

"is that really necessary."

"lets see ... do we have a merchant warrior yet?"

"does the privateer, merchant marine or merchant count?"

"nah. this is a merchant warrior! it's totaly different."

"whatever ..."

I'd like to see a few more truely unique new magic classes though.

Kind of how a Tattoo Man or a Conjuror is completely different than a Wizard; or a Techno-Wizard is completely different than a Summoner. A new form of magic and not just another spellcaster with different spells.

I'd love to see some new magic O.C.C. that not just another spell caster variation unless it had some truely unique special abilities. I've always thought a magic user that specialized in shapeshifting, with limited magic like the Conjuror would be cool. Of course I guess we have that with some of the Tribal and Native American O.C.C.s.

[KillWatch]

Oh see now that is exactly my complaint about all those "new" HU powers.

[GA]

I'm more for GMing level advancement then for using any point system. And you know when those levels are generally by the way the story unfolds. The first time he kills an enemy-level advancement. The first time he kills a bunch of enemies. Level advancement. The first time he kills a major enemy level advancement. The first time he wins the pennant. Level advancement the first time he gets to the world series level advancement the first time he wins the world series level advancement. Sometimes it isn't as dramatic as that and may take the end of a particular storyline or adventure. When they come to the end of one adventure and begin another level advancement. Keep the skills seperate and base those on experience and use.

[SkyeFyre]

I actually really like a leveling system. It kinda gives me and my players some anticipation. Ya know, something to look forward. They like working towards that next level. I've tried a progressive system but we all don't seem to respond to it as well as the leveling system. There's just that sort of pride in being able to be like "Sweet! Level 7!"

I guess it's all just a matter of preference for each group.

[mobuttu]

Experience Chart:

Stat Increased / Cost / Benefit
Attributes*/ current rating x6/ adds 1d4
Skills, trained/ current rating x2.5/ gain next percentage increase
Skills, untrained/ current rating x3/ gain next percentage increase
O.C.C. Skill/ current rating/ gain next percentage increase
New Skill, trained/ Starting Percentage x2.5/ gain skill at base percentage
New Skill, untrained/ Starting percentage x3/ gains skill at base percentage
New Skill w/o Per./ 80 Experience/ gaines skill
New Skill w/o untrained/ 100 Experience/ gaines skill
Hit Points /current rating x2.5/ adds 2d4
P.P.E. /current rating x3/ adds 2d6
*attributes are limited to 30, excluding PS.

I was looking something like this. I though to use something like the CODA system (not checked yet).
BTW, I would allow attribute increasing. Instead PC has to buy a new skill to increase it. For physical attributes I see no problem with that. For mental skills it's much harder (dunno if there is any skill in the game that can increase Mental attributes). For Physical Beauty skill maybe some kind of domestic skill such as "make up" or "fashion"...
On the other hand my feeling is that the cost to increase skills on the table is quite low. Just a feeling, not really sure. What do you think?

[JTwig]

Experience Chart:

Stat Increased / Cost / Benefit
Attributes*/ current rating x6/ adds 1d4
Skills, trained/ current rating x2.5/ gain next percentage increase
Skills, untrained/ current rating x3/ gain next percentage increase
O.C.C. Skill/ current rating/ gain next percentage increase
New Skill, trained/ Starting Percentage x2.5/ gain skill at base percentage
New Skill, untrained/ Starting percentage x3/ gains skill at base percentage
New Skill w/o Per./ 80 Experience/ gaines skill
New Skill w/o untrained/ 100 Experience/ gaines skill
Hit Points /current rating x2.5/ adds 2d4
P.P.E. /current rating x3/ adds 2d6
*attributes are limited to 30, excluding PS.

I was looking something like this. I though to use something like the CODA system (not checked yet).
BTW, I would allow attribute increasing. Instead PC has to buy a new skill to increase it. For physical attributes I see no problem with that. For mental skills it's much harder (dunno if there is any skill in the game that can increase Mental attributes). For Physical Beauty skill maybe some kind of domestic skill such as "make up" or "fashion"...
On the other hand my feeling is that the cost to increase skills on the table is quite low. Just a feeling, not really sure. What do you think?

I thought about using skills to increase attributes, but it meant a lot more work because I would have needed to come up with completely new skills. Plus, once you factor in training times for increasing the traits above (which I haven't taken the time to work out) increasing attributes become much more plausible. If it takes a month or two of hard work (working on it for at least 35-40 hours a week) to increase your PB by 1d4 it becomes realistic. If a person in the real world spent two month of intensive work on their appearance, even without surgery, it would make a noticable difference.

If you do come up with a skill system to increase attributes besides physical one, let me know. I'd be interested in checking it out. You might want to checkout one of the earlier Rifters, there were one or two that had new skills that increased attributes other than physical one. Sorry, but I don't recall which ones they were off the top of my head.

[The ineffible GM]

See Rifter #19 for skills that increase other stats. It has a good selection of them, and while I don't always agree with all the bonuses granted, they do provide a balanced selection to compliment the physical skills rather nicely.

Personally, the best idea I've heard so far in this thread was to keep the leveled system for most things, but work in a point buy of sorts for skills.

I also very much inherently like the idea of a classless system, but after one gets all their skills and atributes taken care of the different OCC abilities will make a nightmare of it. Trying to devise a cost for each ability from all of the many many books would make it ridiculous.

HU2's character creation system is actually not too far from a classless design. The education tables help, and most of the 'classes' simply devise how you go about choosing your super powers. They aren't classes nearly so much as template guidelines.

I suppose your best bet for a classless system would be to devise point costs for everything that are independant of the special class abilities, and then allow each character to select 1 OCC and gain all the abilities from it as long as they meet reasonable requirements. It still throws a lot of balance out the window.

[JTwig]

See Rifter #19 for skills that increase other stats. It has a good selection of them, and while I don't always agree with all the bonuses granted, they do provide a balanced selection to compliment the physical skills rather nicely.

Personally, the best idea I've heard so far in this thread was to keep the leveled system for most things, but work in a point buy of sorts for skills.

I also very much inherently like the idea of a classless system, but after one gets all their skills and atributes taken care of the different OCC abilities will make a nightmare of it. Trying to devise a cost for each ability from all of the many many books would make it ridiculous.

HU2's character creation system is actually not too far from a classless design. The education tables help, and most of the 'classes' simply devise how you go about choosing your super powers. They aren't classes nearly so much as template guidelines.

I suppose your best bet for a classless system would be to devise point costs for everything that are independant of the special class abilities, and then allow each character to select 1 OCC and gain all the abilities from it as long as they meet reasonable requirements. It still throws a lot of balance out the window.

I wouldn't go classless, as it creates whole bunch of head aches with the system I've posted. Instead I'd have the character's base class be selected at creation as standard, and then if the character wanted to multi-class I'd have the new class cost X amount of experience (likely several thousand) and take X amount of time (likely 6+ months for men-at-arms style O.C.C.s, and even longer for martial artist or spell casting O.C.C.s). After all that was accomplished I'd have the character gain the special O.C.C. abilities, and maybe the O.C.C. skills. All other skills and secondary skills would have to be purchased as per the chart above, but would qualify for the in class reduced cost.

[GreenGhost]

Personally I like the Recon Modern Combat idea of using experience points to raise particular skills (i.e. 200-250 experience points to raise a particular skill up one grade or +5%). At leat I'm almost positive it's from Recon Modern Combat.

[DhAkael]

only one thing I have to say.
"HUH?"
I am so sick of all the 'White Wolfers' and other game system sycopahnts complaining they hate level systems...
Suck it up.
Palladium is not perfect.
It never will be.
Adapt the game to your own liking, but quit whining about what is printed.
The company has enough problems keeping material straight without having to re-print and re-format their system AGAIN.
Sorry, but the D&D model of re-formatting the entire game line every 3-4 years is NOT a good way to keep players happy (it costs way too much money..money better spent on NEW original material).

[GreenGhost]

only one thing I have to say.
"HUH?"
I am so sick of all the 'White Wolfers' and other game system sycopahnts complaining they hate level systems...
Suck it up.
Palladium is not perfect.
It never will be.
Adapt the game to your own liking, but quit whining about what is printed.
The company has enough problems keeping material straight without having to re-print and re-format their system AGAIN.
Sorry, but the D&D model of re-formatting the entire game line every 3-4 years is NOT a good way to keep players happy (it costs way too much money..money better spent on NEW original material).

Not whining here. I use the EP System, but like the Recon Modern Combat better

[JTwig]

only one thing I have to say.
"HUH?"
I am so sick of all the 'White Wolfers' and other game system sycopahnts complaining they hate level systems...

First off just because we play other systems and enjoy them does not make us sycophants. In fact after reading your post I'm reminded of the old saying "the kettle calling the pot black".

Suck it up.
Palladium is not perfect.

No one said it was.

It never will be.
Adapt the game to your own liking, but quit whining about what is printed.

No one is whining (though again your post is just as whiney, if not more so, than anything anyone has posted in this thread), in fact this is a thread were I was present somethings that I've been playing around with and "adapting" just as you suggested. Which makes me wonder why this thread has caused you to have such a negative and defensive reaction. Maybe when you said that that we should adapt the game to our own liking, you forgot to add the part about keeping such adaption to ourselves because you can't stand to view them.

The company has enough problems keeping material straight without having to re-print and re-format their system AGAIN.

Again, I don't think that anyone would expect Palladium to make changes to there system, this is just a theoretical discussion on what could stand to be changed and updated in the Palladium system.

Sorry, but the D&D model of re-formatting the entire game line every 3-4 years is NOT a good way to keep players happy (it costs way too much money..money better spent on NEW original material).

I don't think anyone would want Palladium to follow the D&D pattern of "upgrading" its system every few years.

Your entire post has condemned us for doing exactly what you said we should do, adapting the system to suit our need and likes. Plus, you complain about our "whining" by doing what exactly, yes whining.

If people make some suggestions for updates, and talking theoreticals really makes you that upset and your that defensive about the Palladium system then maybe you should take a step back and take a break or check out the rest of the Gaming World.

Like I've said in dozens of post, I love the Palladium system, and Palladium will always be "A-number-1" for me, but it doesn't mean that I'm blind to any of its flaws, nor that I will shut up about them and stop discussing them with other on-line. If you don't like then don't read the post, no one is making you.

[DocS]

My biggest gripe with Palladium level system is that for some classes level is a big deal (T-men are extremely level sensitive), and for some classes, level is largely redundant (Juicers).

Considering the work you do to get levels, what you get for them most of the time is really marginal!

[KillWatch]

Yeah that's my problem to. Not a whole lot to look forward to. Powers and Psis ect even spells are given to your right off. The bulk of your abilities you get at lvl1 and then the flood of power becomes a trickle in the form of skills and small pick me ups