Telemechanics and all its confusion.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The FAQ is outdated and usually Wrong. The "Old" FAQ is just that, old, and not offical. it's just kept up as a "reference" material but is not considered cannon.

Also: the New FAQ here is just another reference material that is the genearl consensus of people here on the board.

The only offical Q&A are from the Rifters, and no, it is NOT easially avaible online or anywhere for that matter.

[Killer Cyborg]

Now, after the fact my GM feels I couldn't accomplish this. He feels the power does NOT grant the ability to reprogram or control systems. It only grants the knowledege of thier use.

He is wrong there.

He also feels that if I am to be able to reprogram it I should be subject to the "hacking" rules set. Thus the 80% skill granted by the power would be subject to modifiers.

He's right about that.

[dragon_blaze_99]

Killer Cyborg is right on both but there are other Telemechanics type psionics in PU1 for HU that might make more sense for what you are trying were to find them in Rifts (other then the GMG) i dont know

[Killer Cyborg]

Now, after the fact my GM feels I couldn't accomplish this. He feels the power does NOT grant the ability to reprogram or control systems. It only grants the knowledege of thier use.

He is wrong there.

He also feels that if I am to be able to reprogram it I should be subject to the "hacking" rules set. Thus the 80% skill granted by the power would be subject to modifiers.

He's right about that.

The skill Computer Hacking says the emphasis is to break computer access codes. The Telemechanics power clearly states the user knows All access codes. So why would I have to hack them?

You wouldn't, not to get into the system.
But reprogramming it isn't the same as just getting into the system.

[verdilak]

Now, after the fact my GM feels I couldn't accomplish this. He feels the power does NOT grant the ability to reprogram or control systems. It only grants the knowledege of thier use.

He is wrong there.

He also feels that if I am to be able to reprogram it I should be subject to the "hacking" rules set. Thus the 80% skill granted by the power would be subject to modifiers.

He's right about that.

The skill Computer Hacking says the emphasis is to break computer access codes. The Telemechanics power clearly states the user knows All access codes. So why would I have to hack them?

You wouldn't, not to get into the system.
But reprogramming it isn't the same as just getting into the system.

I would say that he would have needed to use Computer Programming to change the codes, not hacking since he knows the access codes through Telemechanics, and just wants to change them, resulting in programming at this point, or possibly operation, but not at all hacking.

[Mouser13]

Now, after the fact my GM feels I couldn't accomplish this. He feels the power does NOT grant the ability to reprogram or control systems. It only grants the knowledege of thier use.

He is wrong there.

He also feels that if I am to be able to reprogram it I should be subject to the "hacking" rules set. Thus the 80% skill granted by the power would be subject to modifiers.

He's right about that.

Well I have no problem with any of these. Though I think each would be a action. And each would get two saves vs psionics one for each pilot since it effects both of them for it to work.

Though I think what skill to use is GM call. Personally all these are simple tasks not one require programming or hacking so I would go computer operation.

[Phadeout]

K, So in our second session I (Mind Melter) used Telemechanics to do the following to an Enforcer Robot from main book with 2 pilots inside. Each was an attack action.
1) Reset security and command codes.
2) Powered unit down.
3) Unlocked external hatch releases.
4) Physically opened the hatch.

I'll take a stab at this.

First, take a read of Telemechanics in the GMG or Ultimate edition before anything else.

It's very clearly stated in the power, that, it gives Knowledge of Operation.
It DOES NOT allow you to Operate it without physical contact other than to extract information (as in the example of taking information from the computers Memory Bank and Telepathic Communication - communication does not represent Telepathic Operation).

So, you have 4 points: (I'm making the assumption you were not INSIDE the Enforcer Robot, as there were 2 pilots inside in your example)

1) Reset security and command codes.
You could do this, with an 88% chance as per the ability says (as it does say you get to do Programming, last part of the description of Telemechanics). BUT, you can't do it without getting access to a Console inside the Enforcer - you would Know How, but you can't do it unless you can physically access the computer systems.

2) Powered unit down.
Only if you could once again, get physical access to the computers/electronics/OffSwitch inside the Enforcer. You would Know How to do it, but you would still need to physically do it.

3) Unlocked external hatch releases.
Only if you could get physical access to the lock to enter a code or whatever your GM determines. You would know What the Code Is, but you still have to enter the code physically and open the hatch physically.

4) Physically opened the hatch.
Yes, you can do that.

[Mouser13]

It DOES NOT allow you to Operate it without physical contact other than to extract information (as in the example of taking information from the computers Memory Bank and Telepathic Communication - communication does not represent Telepathic Operation).

I think phadeout you are spliting hairs here. Personally if I can open a shell to server and talk to it I can give it commands?

I have access codes.
I have connection.
I can send commands. THough you could be write the author may have stop this. Though I don't know how you would read from it if you can't send a command to read? But that is why it ficition. Since they have created tele:mental operation and tele: possession. You could be right


THough thinking I little bit more into I don't think you can do
1,2,3,4 I think you have to 1,3,2,4. If the machine is power done would most likly not be able to send the command.

I.e. Example few weeks ago my co work restarted are server and for got to tell it to restart. So we had no way to get to start because it is off we had to go into the secure location and physical boot the box. So basiclly we had no connection.

Wasn't their are RIFTER on this very thing? I can't remember which one, but I seem to remember? Saying some think like you don't need a keyboard? Some out orange, bird-humaniod firing laser gun at about 220 degrees and a cyborg with alot 10101010101 in came to mind. So if that helps anyone else to find it? Please let me know?(Or him I just crazy)?

[Mouser13]

But, The computer not on then you not going to give it commands.
Also if you going with that logic why not power it down first?

[Killer Cyborg]

First of all, if the machine in question is not artificially intelligent, then all you get is the knowlege.
IF the machine is artificially intelligent in some way (like a computer), then you can essentially hack into it telepathically.

BUT from there it comes down to the definition of "machine".
Personally, I wouldn't let any schmuck with Telemechanics walk up to a Glitterboy or other powerful combat vehicle and immobilize it with a single attack; that's just nuts.

The way I'd work it is to let the psychic access the parts of the robot/vehicle that he can actually get to.
For example, if he gets to the control pad that opens the door locks, then he can open the door locks.
Once inside, if he touches the control panel, then he can hack into it.
He can't simply touch a robot on the leg and gain instant control over it's computers and turn the thing off.

[Phadeout]

First of all, if the machine in question is not artificially intelligent, then all you get is the knowlege.
IF the machine is artificially intelligent in some way (like a computer), then you can essentially hack into it telepathically.

BUT from there it comes down to the definition of "machine".
Personally, I wouldn't let any schmuck with Telemechanics walk up to a Glitterboy or other powerful combat vehicle and immobilize it with a single attack; that's just nuts.

The way I'd work it is to let the psychic access the parts of the robot/vehicle that he can actually get to.
For example, if he gets to the control pad that opens the door locks, then he can open the door locks.
Once inside, if he touches the control panel, then he can hack into it.
He can't simply touch a robot on the leg and gain instant control over it's computers and turn the thing off.

Exactly.

A note on "shelling in to a PC". I think I missed some of my point. You can't "touch" a computer or electronic device and make it do what you want, you have to still physically do the actions yourself. When talking about a computer, sure, you could "shell" into it from 1000kms away, but ah... Telemechanics has a range of 5ft...

All I'm saying is, you can't control the machine mentally, you have to have some way of sending it commands - it could be Voice, Headjack, Touch, whatever.

The CS is basically safe from getting all their computers jacked because you need physical access to the computers and the databases/servers. You could break-in to a computer at a CS outpost, but that doesn't give you access to all the CS network - just the Info on that PC (which might have a bunch of useful sercurity info that could be used to then remote access CS info - but you couldn't use Telemechanics to get you any farther than that - now if you were standing 5ft from a CS central database, you could basically do anything as you have access to a central computer, but good luck getting within 5ft of it). ***This is just an example and I'm not saying how the CS works or trying to start a CS Computer debate, Example Only***

[Killer Cyborg]

But back on point..... does the Telemechanic need access to a control panel (keyboard, touch pad etc) to issue commands or make programming changes?

That's a tricky question, actually.

Say that a psychic is trying to get files off of somebody's personal computer. He's broken in, he finds the computer and tries to access it...

I don't think that he would need to physically touch the keyboard (or mouse, or other input device) itself in order to mentally communicate with the computer, as long as he has an unobstructed path to it.
If there's a wall between him and the computer, and the keyboard, etc., then I'd consider it to be shielded from his power.
Basically, the power acts as the input and output devices.
He doesn't need to touch the keys or mouse, and he doesn't need to see the screen.

So if he gets to the computer, simply to find that the owner has taken the keyboard with him, he can still input information into the computer.
If he gets to the computer, only to find that the owner has taken the monitor with him, he can still "see" what the screen would read.
Kind of the same way that normal telepathy lets you communicate with somebody who is blind, deaf, and mute.

But let's say that things work out different.
Say he gets to the room and discovers that the "computer" in the room is simply a monitor and keyboard that are hooked up to a computer that is located someplace else.
In that case, all he can use his power for is to access the components that are present.
And since they're not artificially intelligent, all that means is that he only gets access to knowledge about them, NOT the ability to mind-link with them.

[Phadeout]

But back on point..... does the Telemechanic need access to a control panel (keyboard, touch pad etc) to issue commands or make programming changes?

That's a tricky question, actually.

Say that a psychic is trying to get files off of somebody's personal computer. He's broken in, he finds the computer and tries to access it...

I don't think that he would need to physically touch the keyboard (or mouse, or other input device) itself in order to mentally communicate with the computer, as long as he has an unobstructed path to it.
If there's a wall between him and the computer, and the keyboard, etc., then I'd consider it to be shielded from his power.
Basically, the power acts as the input and output devices.
He doesn't need to touch the keys or mouse, and he doesn't need to see the screen.

So if he gets to the computer, simply to find that the owner has taken the keyboard with him, he can still input information into the computer.
If he gets to the computer, only to find that the owner has taken the monitor with him, he can still "see" what the screen would read.
Kind of the same way that normal telepathy lets you communicate with somebody who is blind, deaf, and mute.

But let's say that things work out different.
Say he gets to the room and discovers that the "computer" in the room is simply a monitor and keyboard that are hooked up to a computer that is located someplace else.
In that case, all he can use his power for is to access the components that are present.
And since they're not artificially intelligent, all that means is that he only gets access to knowledge about them, NOT the ability to mind-link with them.

I would say this is still getting into beyond what TM can do (without it's add on powers).

From reading the description of the power: It's One-Way and Read-Only.

You can't give the Computer any commands. Only read the info in the computer and gain knowledge about it. It's quite clear in the description of the TM power, you get a % Skill for that machine - that's it. You cannot make the computer "do" anything, you only gain Knowledge. If you want the computer to "do" something (like bring up www.prosek.com, you need to type that into the computer's browser and hit "enter", if you don't have a keyboard, you can't view the website cause you can't tell the PC to browse to it. Now, on the same note, if the Website Data is Hosted on the PC you just used TM on, you could mentally read the contents of the site from the PC - since it's data you can read mentally - but that doesn't mean you can mentally command it to appear on the Monitor for anyone else to read - only you could read it.)

Is this clear? I can give more examples.

TM specifically states you get 2 things from it's use:
Skill % Use for the Machine
Ability to Read Data from memory banks.

Nothing else, nothing more.

Read Telemechanics.
Now read the first 2 sentences from Telemechanics Mental Operation (page 105 GMG). Those first 2 senteces read:

"This power is a step beyond the mere understanding of machines granted by Telemechanics, it allows the psychic to telepathically operate the machines with his mind! As long as the machine functions, he knows how to use it, and it is turned "on" the psychic can manipulate it with his mind as if his fingers were on the controls."

That should be clear enough to hopefully clear things up no?

[Killer Cyborg]

From reading the description of the power: It's One-Way and Read-Only.

You can't give the Computer any commands. Only read the info in the computer and gain knowledge about it. It's quite clear in the description of the TM power, you get a % Skill for that machine - that's it.

"Then touching an artificially intelligent machine, i.e., computers, the psionic not only understands everything about its operation, repair, access codes, etc., but can actually communicate with it telepathically."

Not just read it's "mind", but "communicate" with it.
Communication is typically a two-way street.

[Mouser13]

Though I thought a rifter said you don't need a keyboard with tele to use a computer.



I'm just joking here.

Guys, remember is says from memory not from the harddrive. So you only get data from what is currentlly running. For those hair spliters out their he he he.

[Phadeout]

I can't "control" it as per se or 'tell" it what to do. But I can communicate with it to give it commands and such as if I was at the controls.

Well, you kind of have two things cancelling each other out here:

Can't Tell it what to do.
I can communicate with it to give it commands and such as if at the controls.

Hmmm. Giving it commands is telling it what to do.

I think this is getting into to much detail though. I'd like to think of it this way for us computer geeks:

You have Read Access (and all the commands without keyboard/monitor at your disposal in this regard - i.e. using Telepathy)
You do not have Change or Write Access

Like Telepathy, you can have a conversation with the computer/system, but you can't do much more than ask questions and get answers.

[Rimmer]

Just to add my 2c worth. While not exactly canon as such, one of the play examples in the Mechanoids book, was of the party being trapped in a mechanoid elevater, and not being able to go anywhere due to all mechanoid controls being activated by telekinesis. Now the Psionic in the group used TM to find out information about the elevater, he found out about the controls and where they were and what they did, the controls being of couse behind the walls, and you had to use TK to activate them. Now this implies to me that while TM can effectivly give you an "owners manual" to whatever item, it does not let you actually do anything with it, you need TMO for that, or in this case TK. If TM actually allowed you to do anything beyond "read only" then there would have been no need to use TK to activate the elevater. I think in the play example the psionic did not have TK and they had to go back to the old favourite vibro blade.

Not sure if this actually helps or hinders, but it is the only example of TM in use that i could remember of.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think this is getting into to much detail though. I'd like to think of it this way for us computer geeks:

You have Read Access (and all the commands without keyboard/monitor at your disposal in this regard - i.e. using Telepathy)
You do not have Change or Write Access

Like Telepathy, you can have a conversation with the computer/system, but you can't do much more than ask questions and get answers.

If you don't have any input ability, how do you ask the questions?

[Rimmer]

Just to add my 2c worth. While not exactly canon as such, one of the play examples in the Mechanoids book, was of the party being trapped in a mechanoid elevater, and not being able to go anywhere due to all mechanoid controls being activated by telekinesis. Now the Psionic in the group used TM to find out information about the elevater, he found out about the controls and where they were and what they did, the controls being of couse behind the walls, and you had to use TK to activate them. Now this implies to me that while TM can effectivly give you an "owners manual" to whatever item, it does not let you actually do anything with it, you need TMO for that, or in this case TK. If TM actually allowed you to do anything beyond "read only" then there would have been no need to use TK to activate the elevater. I think in the play example the psionic did not have TK and they had to go back to the old favourite vibro blade.

Not sure if this actually helps or hinders, but it is the only example of TM in use that i could remember of.

Sorry, my bad, page 86 Mechanoid book, turns out it was actually object read, not TM

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'll just throw in my thoughts on the matter real quick, take them or leave them as you please. When I originally read it, and even re-read it for this, my first impression was the same as Phadeout (though I'll touch on both view points).

It mentions similar to the ability of Telepathy, just with machines instead. With Telepathy, it's a read only. Two way communication is NOT possible unless the one you're communicating with also has telepathy. Since I find it doubtful the computer will have Telemechanics, only one way reading should be possible. There is a line from the book, "This means he can tap into the computer's memory bank without using a terminal because the information would be sent directly into the psychic's mind." It specifically states it will be sent into the psychic's mind, but never mentions the psychic can send information as well. Then in Telemechanic Mental Operation it mentions it goes "a step beyond" Telemechanics and can "operate computers, keypads, set/program an alarm clock" and some other stuff. If programming just an alarm clock is "a step beyond" Telemechanics how can you reprogram a computer with just Telemechanics? At least not without the controls. This was my first impression, and in many ways how I believe the original write-up for was intended. Of course, my view points often differ from the majority.

Now I'll address the other side. After reading this thread, and reading the book several times, I'll admit I have some doubt if my feelings on it are accurate or not. There is the quote Killer Cyborg mentioned about the ability to "actually communicate" with it telepathically (the quote I mentioned above comes directly after this one). As he said, communication goes both ways, and I can't argue against that fact. As to it not making Telemechanic Mental Operation useless, well, there is still a considerable difference. There is some overlap, but there is also a fair amount of added abilities, such as the Mechanoids example listed by Rimmer. It can't manipulate physical controls (technically TMO can't move the physical controls, but convince the system it has), as well as control it much faster. With Telemechanics, even if you can access the computer like you were at the controls, reprogramming it will take time. Imagine rewriting the program from scratch! I'm not a computer expert (actually I'm just a user), but I'm fairly sure that's going to take more than just a few seconds. You'd have to stay there and take the time to rewrite it because it's not instant. With Telemechanic Mental Operation you're controlling it with thought alone, not having to reprogram everything allowing much faster reaction time. Then there is always the increased range.

Having given some views on both sides, I'll state I still believe it's a "read only" (as it's been referred to) ability, and the "communicate" line is just a really poor choice of words by the writer (not uncommon). Perhaps you can ask questions as you could with Telepathy (you can send messages, but not force it to do anything with the typical power), so you can ask a computer to do something, but since computers only take commands you're just out of luck. Okay, I think that covers my main points. Thank you for your time. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Danger]

Now, after the fact my GM feels I couldn't accomplish this. He feels the power does NOT grant the ability to reprogram or control systems. It only grants the knowledege of thier use.

He is wrong there.

He also feels that if I am to be able to reprogram it I should be subject to the "hacking" rules set. Thus the 80% skill granted by the power would be subject to modifiers.

He's right about that.

The skill Computer Hacking says the emphasis is to break computer access codes. The Telemechanics power clearly states the user knows All access codes. So why would I have to hack them?

You wouldn't, not to get into the system.
But reprogramming it isn't the same as just getting into the system.

I have to agree with KC.

It is a dark day.

Dark indeed.

[Malakai]

I think everyone is looking at AI and the word "communicate" from the wrong angle.

An AI, in the palladium setting, is a fully aware computer system able to think on it's own - has it's own IQ.

IF the device does not have an AI, then all you get is the knowledge of it's workings and your are able to read any information available on it's harddrive.

If the device IS connected to an AI, you also get to communicate with it - have a mental conversation with it. If you want it to do something, you have to convince it to do such on it's own. If you look at every other Telemechanic, they all say that AIs are immune (with the possible exception of TMPossession - I don't have my books in front of me right now).

Those are my two cents

[Killer Cyborg]

I think everyone is looking at AI and the word "communicate" from the wrong angle.

An AI, in the palladium setting, is a fully aware computer system able to think on it's own - has it's own IQ.

IF the device does not have an AI, then all you get is the knowledge of it's workings and your are able to read any information available on it's harddrive.

If the device IS connected to an AI, you also get to communicate with it - have a mental conversation with it. If you want it to do something, you have to convince it to do such on it's own. If you look at every other Telemechanic, they all say that AIs are immune (with the possible exception of TMPossession - I don't have my books in front of me right now).

Those are my two cents

The Telemechanics description describes what they mean by AI in that context.
Computers.

[Tinker Dragoon]

This message has been moved to the Rifts Forum, where the topic is more applicable and appropriate. If you have a problem with how this post was handled please direct all inquires to deific.nmi@gmail.com, including the url to the post in question.

[Qev]

To me at least, the description of Telemechanics seems pretty clear that it's a power that grants knowledge, not the ability to control. I think 'communicate' was probably a poor choice of words, since they seem to imply that it's more like a computery equivalent to mind-reading, and not telepathy (going by the example in the text, at least).

Though to be honest, I never liked how limited Telemechanics is as a super-psi power, and having to choose more super-psi powers to get the added functions is even worse.

[Subjugator]

Though I thought a rifter said you don't need a keyboard with tele to use a computer.



I'm just joking here.

Guys, remember is says from memory not from the harddrive. So you only get data from what is currentlly running. For those hair spliters out their he he he.

Actually, the hard drive in big systems (mainframes and midrange systems) can act as just another sort of memory. For example, on an AS/400, you could store something and it might go to physical memory and it might go to disk. It's not relevant to the system, as all that it cares about is that it is stored.

Also - it is unlikely that the technology required to run these systems would use a hard disk. It is more likely to be a solid state product.

/Sub

[Devari]

To me at least, the description of Telemechanics seems pretty clear that it's a power that grants knowledge, not the ability to control. I think 'communicate' was probably a poor choice of words, since they seem to imply that it's more like a computery equivalent to mind-reading, and not telepathy (going by the example in the text, at least).

When I originally read the description of telemechanics I assumed that the power allowed a certain degree of control over computers and computer-controlled machines, but after carefully reading the power it seems that's really just wishful thinking. "Communicate" simply implies an exchange of information. "Communicate" does not imply "control". The psychic uses telemechanics to communicate a request for a certain piece of information (file, access code, etc.) and the computer system responds to this request by sending the information. That constitutes two-way communication without involving any actual control over the computer's functions. I can understand how "communicate" and "control" can be confused when dealing with a computer system (and that's how I originally read the power) but as written the telemechanics power doesn't confer any ability to get a computer to execute commands or carry out any other function.

As a side point, one power that could be used to acheive a similar effect described by the original poster (i.e., unlocking a hatch on a robot vehicle) is electrokinesis. It provides limited control over electrical devices such as switching devices on/off. Since the hatch would use an electrically-controlled lock the psychic could lock or unlock it using electrokinesis. It doesn't matter if there is an access code involved because the psychic is simply controling the electrical current in the locking mechanism directly rather than giving a command through a keypad. The psychic doesn't even need to see the locking mechanism since the power states that the electrical devices can be sensed. And using the power only requires a single action.

For that matter, electrokinesis could also be used to affect other electrically-powered systems, such as turning off the power supply to a laser or railgun, although in practice this would probably only last for one melee action since the pilot or gunner would immediately power the weapon back up. In theory you could even try to shut down the current from the robot's nuclear power supply (you couldn't affect the nuclear reaction itself but you could affect the current flow being supplied by the power plant), although again this would likely only last for a single melee action and probably wouldn't work if the robot has separate backup capacitors/batteries to take over during brief power supply interruptions (which is probably how the robot's power systems are designed).

Though to be honest, I never liked how limited Telemechanics is as a super-psi power, and having to choose more super-psi powers to get the added functions is even worse.

Actually, I think telemechanics is one of the best psychic powers available because of the ability to use or repair virtually any piece of technology. If it could also be used to control machines remotely it would probably be too powerful compared to the other powers available, so I don't think it's unreasonable to require a second psionic power to exert control over machines.

I think that the least effective super psionic power is definately psionic invisibility, since even a single non-psychic target has a 20% chance of resisting the power and the chance of affecting multiple targets becomes very low. And it doesn't affect security cameras (unless the person viewing the camera happens to be in range of the power) since it doesn't actually make the psychic invisible, it only tricks the targets into ignoring the psychic. Since this makes the power basically useless for sneaking past more than one person (or sneaking into a facility, etc.) this means the power is extremely limited and is really not worth being classified as a super psionic power.

[Noon]

So who's right? Or wrong? Or can we just get a better explanation?

I like how you don't ask 'Hey, are the rules just written badly?' first.

It's like you want to assume that yes, the rules are written correctly - your correctly - but of course not his correctly.

Will either you or the GM admit to the possiblity that the rules are just written poorly and are non informative? That the books wrong? Or both of you will keep saying the books right, but its the other person who's wrong?

Just cause you like to argue with each other, doesn't mean you've got a problem with him.