House Rules 1: Attributes, Running, Perception, HP, Attacks

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
Perception Checks :


First, perception will be ME based, not IQ. IQ measures knowledge, not wisdom, and I believe is not correct for determining the strength of perception. Think of some of the teachers you’ve had; most are very knowledgeable and intelligent, but a few had a tendency to walk into doors, didn’t they?
And ME is the meshure of Metal stuborness....still not wisdom. Besides IQ meashure the Manipulations of knowage not knowage itself. But I agree with the concept of not basing it off the IQ....in fact I would go with a whole new attribute for preception, like the guys who started Protoculture Addictes did.

Instead, Perception bonuses will be based on the ME chart, and will be equal to the granted bonus vs. psionics.
The perception bonuse is already figured out with the ME PSI bonuse table.

...snip...

Hit Points :

Hit points are calculated after any modifications to your PE have occurred due to skills and OCC/RCC bonuses.
HP is already figured out after all HP modifications.

Attacks per Melee :

H2H Attacks: We will be using the revised rules, as per Rifts Ultimate Edition. All characters start out with 2 attacks, +H2H skills, + Other.
Only in Rifts, becasue other settings has different APM rules.


...snip

[Killer Cyborg]

As for HP being decided after skill bonuses, Rifts UE has HP determination as step 2, prior to picking an OCC or skills. Nowhere do I see it saying it should be determined after skill/ OCC modifications. Apparently you feel the same as I, that this should be decided following all changes, but by the book this would be a house rule.

By that logic, you roll your Hit Points before you even decide what species you are.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, if anyone can give me a page number in the Rifts main book where it says that HP is determined after all stat changes are finished I will admit it is not needed for a house rule.
However, if the only justification possible is that "it makes the most sense this way", then I will agree, and say THAT is why I made it a solidly stated rule in my games. It makes sense, but wasnt stated in the formal rules.

Give me a page number in the Rifts main book that states you have to create a character in exactly the order that they give the steps.
However, if the only justification for your believe is that "it makes the most sense that way, but wasn't stated in the formal rules", then it's just a house rule that you've made up.

[Killer Cyborg]

... I know, hence the thread name... 'House Rules'.

Im not arguing the rules, just stating my reasoning for altering them.

I think you missed my point, which was that, by your own logic, unless the rules state specifically that you must follow the character creation steps in order, then you don't have to.
Saying that you DO is a house rule.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, my view is that, no matter the order you decide to follow the steps, be it the way I interpret the intention of the rules (In order), or the way you seem to have (any which way but loose), my House Rule covers all bases.

Sure.
But the thing is, since you can't provide anything in the book saying specifically that your way (In Order) is the official rule, then it is a house rule.
Which means that Any-Which-Way-But-Loose is not.
Which means that the "house rule" you posted here for dealing with Hit Points actually isn't a house rule at all.

Whether you go step A-X, or step X-A, you still decide HP after all modifications in my games.

Only sensible way to do it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip..
As for HP being decided after skill bonuses, Rifts UE has HP determination as step 2, prior to picking an OCC or skills. Nowhere do I see it saying it should be determined after skill/ OCC modifications. Apparently you feel the same as I, that this should be decided following all changes, but by the book this would be a house rule.

...snip.

I think it is a carry over from HU where you only pencile in your stats becasue all the steps beyond can change your base scores.

And when I talk about perception I am carefull to state that the ME PSI bonuse table is used. Becasue there is a ME Insanity Table which has a different graduation of bonuses. Oh yes, I use the ME insanity table for all my chars' insanity bonuses, even the ones for rifts. (HU2/PF2/ATB2 main books)

KC...the only setting that your race is chosen after you make stat rolls is HU, every other setting the very thing you choose first is your race, bscasue otherwise you wouldn't know what Die to roll for each stat.

[Killer Cyborg]

KC...the only setting that your race is chosen after you make stat rolls is HU, every other setting the very thing you choose first is your race, bscasue otherwise you wouldn't know what Die to roll for each stat.

Correct.
Yet "Step 1" in RUE is to roll up the eight attributes.
It's only at "Step 5" that you "Pick an OCC".
"Most characters in the North American setting will be Men at Arms, Adventurers, Scholars, Psychics, Practitioners of Magic or a Dragon."

Which indicates that the steps aren't really intended to be followed in the order listed.

[The ineffible GM]

KC, I can't help but think you're being somewhat obnoxious here...you're arguning the semantics of an argument of semantics.

The book doesn't say "This is the only order you can use to create a character", but it does say "these are the steps for creating a character".

No, the order doesn't make sense, Mindwalker has agreed with you on this. His whole point was that he wanted it written down somewhere instead of assuming that everyone would think the same way he does.

KC...the only setting that your race is chosen after you make stat rolls is HU, every other setting the very thing you choose first is your race, bscasue otherwise you wouldn't know what Die to roll for each stat.

Correct.
Yet "Step 1" in RUE is to roll up the eight attributes.
It's only at "Step 5" that you "Pick an OCC".
"Most characters in the North American setting will be Men at Arms, Adventurers, Scholars, Psychics, Practitioners of Magic or a Dragon."

Which indicates that the steps aren't really intended to be followed in the order listed.

And then you argue that this 'indication' is more important than Mindwalker's 'indication' that the steps are supposed to be followed because they are presented as 'the process of character creation' without anywhere explicitely saying that you should or can change the order around.

This is an inconsistency within the game, and that you are attempting to win an argument of opinion while mindwalker appears to be more than ahppy to say "we have different opinions, and that's that".

[Killer Cyborg]

KC, I can't help but think you're being somewhat obnoxious here...you're arguning the semantics of an argument of semantics.

Does that make less sense tham posting a house rule that's actually an official rule, then getting testy when people point it out to you?

The book doesn't say "This is the only order you can use to create a character", but it does say "these are the steps for creating a character".

No, the order doesn't make sense, Mindwalker has agreed with you on this. His whole point was that he wanted it written down somewhere instead of assuming that everyone would think the same way he does.

That's great, but that doesn't make it a house rule.

KC...the only setting that your race is chosen after you make stat rolls is HU, every other setting the very thing you choose first is your race, bscasue otherwise you wouldn't know what Die to roll for each stat.

Correct.
Yet "Step 1" in RUE is to roll up the eight attributes.
It's only at "Step 5" that you "Pick an OCC".
"Most characters in the North American setting will be Men at Arms, Adventurers, Scholars, Psychics, Practitioners of Magic or a Dragon."

Which indicates that the steps aren't really intended to be followed in the order listed.

And then you argue that this 'indication' is more important than Mindwalker's 'indication' that the steps are supposed to be followed because they are presented as 'the process of character creation' without anywhere explicitely saying that you should or can change the order around.

The fact that there isn't anything saying you need to follow the steps in a certain order means that you don't need to follow the steps in a certain order.
The fact that there isn't anything saying that you don't need to follow the steps in a certain order doesn't mean anything at all.

This is an inconsistency within the game, and that you are attempting to win an argument of opinion while mindwalker appears to be more than ahppy to say "we have different opinions, and that's that".

People who lose arguments are always happy to say that.

This isn't a matter of opinion; the facts are plain to see.
He's making a house rule that's already an actual rule.

[The ineffible GM]

KC, I can't help but think you're being somewhat obnoxious here...you're arguning the semantics of an argument of semantics.

Does that make less sense tham posting a house rule that's actually an official rule, then getting testy when people point it out to you?

Mindwalker hasn't been getting testy, you have been.

The book doesn't say "This is the only order you can use to create a character", but it does say "these are the steps for creating a character".

No, the order doesn't make sense, Mindwalker has agreed with you on this. His whole point was that he wanted it written down somewhere instead of assuming that everyone would think the same way he does.

That's great, but that doesn't make it a house rule.

He has written out a rule to be used in the games that he runs, a rule that does not appear in the book.
How is this not a house rule?

KC...the only setting that your race is chosen after you make stat rolls is HU, every other setting the very thing you choose first is your race, bscasue otherwise you wouldn't know what Die to roll for each stat.

Correct.
Yet "Step 1" in RUE is to roll up the eight attributes.
It's only at "Step 5" that you "Pick an OCC".
"Most characters in the North American setting will be Men at Arms, Adventurers, Scholars, Psychics, Practitioners of Magic or a Dragon."

Which indicates that the steps aren't really intended to be followed in the order listed.

You have argued that one passage of the book "indicates" that the order as printed does not need to be followed as is. You have not mentioned anything anywhere indicating where Mindwalker's rule is printed in any rules section of any Palladium book.

This is an inconsistency within the game, and that you are attempting to win an argument of opinion while mindwalker appears to be more than ahppy to say "we have different opinions, and that's that".

People who lose arguments are always happy to say that.

This is a petty remark to be making. Please, can we keep the discussion civil?

This isn't a matter of opinion; the facts are plain to see.
He's making a house rule that's already an actual rule.

You have not laid out any facts.
Your only reference is to an "indication" which you have interpreted to mean something that others may or may not have interpreted the same way. That is what an opinion is. You are arguing your opinion.

You have thus far argued that one does not need to follow the character creation steps as presented. Even so, no where do the rules say (that I am aware of, if you can reference a page number to prove me wrong please do) that you should determine your Hit Points after you determine your skills. THAT is what Mindwalker's rule is about.

I am curious KC, if perhaps this entire argument is based upon some small base misunderstanding: What is your definition of a house rule?

I would say that anything which is set out as a rule for a game, which does not appear in any official release from the creator/creator company would be a house rule.
Is your definition different than this?

[Killer Cyborg]

KC, I can't help but think you're being somewhat obnoxious here...you're arguning the semantics of an argument of semantics.

Does that make less sense tham posting a house rule that's actually an official rule, then getting testy when people point it out to you?

Mindwalker hasn't been getting testy, you have been.

No, I've been getting obnoxious, if anything, and only in return of his own actions.
He posted his "house rule".
Drewkitty pointed out that it wasn't actually a house rule.
He huffed that it must be, since it's not specifically listed as an official rule.
I turned it back around on him by pointing out that his own assumption (that the steps have to be followed in the order written) isn't written down either, and is blatantly incorrect.
He said "let's agree to disagree", although there's really nothing I've said that can be logically disagreed with.

He has written out a rule to be used in the games that he runs, a rule that does not appear in the book.
How is this not a house rule?

By that logic, "Read the rulebook" would also be a house rule.

You have argued that one passage of the book "indicates" that the order as printed does not need to be followed as is. You have not mentioned anything anywhere indicating where Mindwalker's rule is printed in any rules section of any Palladium book.

It doesn't have to be.

This is an inconsistency within the game, and that you are attempting to win an argument of opinion while mindwalker appears to be more than ahppy to say "we have different opinions, and that's that".

People who lose arguments are always happy to say that.

This is a petty remark to be making. Please, can we keep the discussion civil?[/quote]

It IS a petty remark to be making, but that's the appropriate response when people pull the old "Well, this is just a matter of opinion..." nonsense.
In this case, it's NOT.
I've made logical arguments. If there are flaws in the logic, then attack my arguments logically; don't just pretend that I haven't said anything, or that what I have said is pure opinion.
That's just insulting.

This isn't a matter of opinion; the facts are plain to see.
He's making a house rule that's already an actual rule.

You have not laid out any facts.

As for HP being decided after skill bonuses, Rifts UE has HP determination as step 2, prior to picking an OCC or skills. Nowhere do I see it saying it should be determined after skill/ OCC modifications. Apparently you feel the same as I, that this should be decided following all changes, but by the book this would be a house rule.

By that logic, you roll your Hit Points before you even decide what species you are.

by your own logic, unless the rules state specifically that you must follow the character creation steps in order, then you don't have to.
Saying that you DO is a house rule.

KC...the only setting that your race is chosen after you make stat rolls is HU, every other setting the very thing you choose first is your race, bscasue otherwise you wouldn't know what Die to roll for each stat.

Correct.
Yet "Step 1" in RUE is to roll up the eight attributes.
It's only at "Step 5" that you "Pick an OCC".
"Most characters in the North American setting will be Men at Arms, Adventurers, Scholars, Psychics, Practitioners of Magic or a Dragon."

Which indicates that the steps aren't really intended to be followed in the order listed.

Your only reference is to an "indication" which you have interpreted to mean something that others may or may not have interpreted the same way. That is what an opinion is. You are arguing your opinion.

Actually, that indication is supported by facts.
But do go on; if you have an interpretation that allows for determining Hit Points before choosing Race or Class, I'd be happy to hear it.

You have thus far argued that one does not need to follow the character creation steps as presented. Even so, no where do the rules say (that I am aware of, if you can reference a page number to prove me wrong please do) that you should determine your Hit Points after you determine your skills. THAT is what Mindwalker's rule is about.

The fact that the races, skills, and OCCs determine what your hit points ARE mean that there's no other way to do it.

I am curious KC, if perhaps this entire argument is based upon some small base misunderstanding: What is your definition of a house rule?
I would say that anything which is set out as a rule for a game, which does not appear in any official release from the creator/creator company would be a house rule.
Is your definition different than this?

A House Rule is a localized ruling that deviates from the official rules of the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_rule

[Killer Cyborg]

Um, I never posting anything "In a huff". I stated that I thought the rule wasnt clear enough to be considered as cannon, and as such I felt it needed a house rule. I asked for book clarification if anyone had it to show if I was wrong.

I at no point posted in a way as to be purposfully confrontational as, quite honestly, Im just not that invested in this. If anything I said came out otherwise, well, Im sorry for my lack of web etiquette, but not my intention, as it wasnt to insult or challenge.

No problem.
If I misconstrued, then my bad.

That said, you really seem to be getting worked up about this stuff,

Not really.
Like you, I'm not that invested in it.

It bugs me when people try to come down on me without good reason, but that's about it.

So, if anyone has any comments about the contents of the rules, I'll talk about em, but Im done with the meta stuff. Please dont flame me for not wanting to continue it.

I only deviated from posting about the rules when people started questioning my conduct.
So I'm more than happy to get back to the topic.

[The ineffible GM]

It bugs me when people try to come down on me without good reason, but that's about it.

My intention was never to 'come down on you', and from the nature of the discussion thus far we obviously have differing concepts of each other's 'good reasons'.

So, if anyone has any comments about the contents of the rules, I'll talk about em, but Im done with the meta stuff.

But of course.

The most thought provoking aspect of this set of house rules I branched into a new topic. I frequently find it interesting to see different people's spin on Perception, and how to better incorporate it into their game.

I especially like the rules on when to roll bonus dice when determining attributes. It's a simple enough formula to implement, and works across the board.