Some Dimensions Can't Support M.D.C. Physics?

[JTwig]

I was going through my copy of Dragons & Gods (sorry loaned to a friend so I can't give exact page numbers) and in the section about converting from M.D.C. to S.D.C. and vice-versa, it actually states that some dimensions (such as the PFRPG setting) cannot support M.D.C., and that M.D.C. (both tech and magic) turns into S.D.C. in such environments. It also says that even experienced dimensional travellers don't understand exactly why some dimensions are M.D.C. compatible and other are not.

I was surprised to read this, even though this is how I've always played it. I know that a lot of people that post on these boards have always played it that M.D.C. tech is M.D.C. no matter what the environment, and that magic was M.D.C. if having Rifts and Wormwood levels of ambient magic.

Just though I would share my surprise, and see what everyone else though.

[Killer Cyborg]

I was going through my copy of Dragons & Gods (sorry loaned to a friend so I can't give exact page numbers) and in the section about converting from M.D.C. to S.D.C. and vice-versa, it actually states that some dimensions (such as the PFRPG setting) cannot support M.D.C., and that M.D.C. (both tech and magic) turns into S.D.C. in such environments. It also says that even experienced dimensional travellers don't understand exactly why some dimensions are M.D.C. compatible and other are not.

I was surprised to read this, even though this is how I've always played it. I know that a lot of people that post on these boards have always played it that M.D.C. tech is M.D.C. no matter what the environment, and that magic was M.D.C. if having Rifts and Wormwood levels of ambient magic.

Just though I would share my surprise, and see what everyone else though.

Yeah, they came up with that bit quite a while back, in order to keep people from over-running PFRPG and other SDC settings with MD technology.

Personally, I think it's a cop-out.

[lather]

Works for me.

[Talavar]

Even beyond that, dimension book 7 - the dimension builder talks about how advanced technology from "positive" universes won't even work in "negative" universes. Both are cop-outs on the part of Palladium, and are ignored in any of my games.

[JTwig]

Even beyond that, dimension book 7 - the dimension builder talks about how advanced technology from "positive" universes won't even work in "negative" universes. Both are cop-outs on the part of Palladium, and are ignored in any of my games.

I don't understand how it is a cop-out. Fantasy and Sci-Fi that deal with alternate universes and dimension are filled with plot device about how the physics in dimension XX make it so gunpower doesn't work, combustion engines don't work in this dimension, and that dimension nothing hi-tech operates correctly. Just look at the Amber series, here you have a well written and extremely popular set of books that does that all the time.

What I think people really mean when they say cop-out, is that it isn't how they want it to work, so they call it a cop-out to justify their ignoring of the rule (which is strange since this is an RPG, and everyone is free to ingnore any rule they wish without justification).

[lather]

That's just a cop-out

[JTwig]

That's just a cop-out

No, no. That was a cop-out. (damit, were is the emoticon that gives the finger. That should really be manditory! )

[lather]

That's just a cop-out

No, no. That was a cop-out. (damit, were is the emoticon that gives the finger. That should really be manditory! )

:lol:

It does make things easier but that does not make it a cop-out.

[Killer Cyborg]

Even beyond that, dimension book 7 - the dimension builder talks about how advanced technology from "positive" universes won't even work in "negative" universes. Both are cop-outs on the part of Palladium, and are ignored in any of my games.

I don't understand how it is a cop-out. Fantasy and Sci-Fi that deal with alternate universes and dimension are filled with plot device about how the physics in dimension XX make it so gunpower doesn't work, combustion engines don't work in this dimension, and that dimension nothing hi-tech operates correctly. Just look at the Amber series, here you have a well written and extremely popular set of books that does that all the time.

What I think people really mean when they say cop-out, is that it isn't how they want it to work, so they call it a cop-out to justify their ignoring of the rule (which is strange since this is an RPG, and everyone is free to ingnore any rule they wish without justification).

I agree with you as far as different levels of technology go.
I can fathom a universe where electricity doesn't work, so electronics don't work, or where the physics are different enough that chemical reactions don't work the same way.

Mega-Damage, on the other hand, isn't technology. It's a measurement of damage. It doesn't make sense for it to be nerfed across the board.

[lather]

MDC can be easily converted to SDC for those worlds which do not measure damage in MDC.

Makes sense to me.

[Killer Cyborg]

Aside from the fact that Kevin has always encouraged players & GMs to modify the rules for their own campaigns (which it appears you're already doing), why is it a cop-out that the official rule is that MDC tech transforms into SDC tech in certain situations? All it does is prevent uber-Munchkins from demanding "cross-over" games just so that they can trash a low-tech setting with their Rifts hardware.

No, it doesn't.
Because, as you just pointed out, people are free to alter the rules as they like. In fact, they're encouraged to do so.
So any group of munchkins who wants to ignore the rule can.

Also, you're making a HUGE assumption here that only munchkins would ever bring MDC weapons and armor into an SDC setting.

Besides, even if you left it as MDC tech, you'd still run into a whole lot of problems:

1. Replacing ammunition. I doubt a traditional blacksmith would be able to manufacture replacement rail guns rounds out of the same MDC materials already used by the equipment. "Substandard" rounds may or may not work, will certainly do much lower damage (if not SDC damage), & will run a big risk of completely jamming the gun up.

Then there's missiles. Clean rooms for making replacement chips (or whatever replaces microcircuitry in Rifts) for guidance systems & arming circuits? No way. Chemical plants to create the high-grade explosives & plasma (with even modern-day equivalents well beyond the "black powder" tech that you might be able to introduce into PFRPG)? Highly doubtful.

And let's not forget energy weapons. Good luck finding the right crystals (or whatever is used) to repair your rifles -- assuming the character knows where to find the materials, & can take the time to mine & prepare them. Oh, & don't forget about the problem of recharging your e-Clips, too: electricity was pretty much limited to lightning bolts.

2. Replacing power supplies. As noted previously, electriciy generation would be extremely difficult to find in PFRPG. If you're lucky, you might be able to swing a windmill, but that would be about it. Hydroelectric? Very tough to build the turbines with blacksmith tech. Solar panels? About as difficult as new computer chips. Nuclear? Good luck trying to mine uranium/plutonium/radium for a fission reactor, & building a new fusion reactor with blacksmiths would be extremely frightening (makes Homer Simpson look like a Quality standard to shoot for).

3. General repairs & upkeep. Taking along an Operator with a full selection of tools & some spare parts is nice, but eventually he'll run out of some critical part that needs replaced. Again, there's no guarantee that the Operator knows how to fashion new replacement parts, & futuristic metallurgy is probably beyond the capabilities of Middle Age smithies.

Beyond that, there're the usual issues to worry about:
-- poisoned food (can't carry that many MREs)
-- poison gas (can't always wear a helmet or gas mask)
-- assassin bath attendants (unless you really like that funky smell after you've worn your armor for 7 straight days)
-- falling off cliffs (your robot may only have a few dents, but you'll be a broken pile of goo)
-- sheer numbers could overwhelm you, carry you off & drop you into a volcano
-- falling overboard in the deep ocean, & sinking past your "crush depth"

Which are all reasons why it's unnecessary to make the rule that certain dimensions can't support mega-damage.
Which leaves us with an official rule that not only doesn't make sense, but that serves no real purpose within the game.

[Talavar]

I don't understand how it is a cop-out. Fantasy and Sci-Fi that deal with alternate universes and dimension are filled with plot device about how the physics in dimension XX make it so gunpower doesn't work, combustion engines don't work in this dimension, and that dimension nothing hi-tech operates correctly. Just look at the Amber series, here you have a well written and extremely popular set of books that does that all the time.

It's a cop-out in Palladium, and a cop-out in the Amber series (which I otherwise like, at least the original ones), and a cop-out in any other fantasy/sci-fi that makes use of the idea. By cop-out I mean a plot device used by the author to arbitrarily make the setting work with his idea of it, without any thought to the real ramifications of such a decision. "I don't want guns in my setting" says the author, and so for no reason but authorial fiat, gunpowder doesn't work.

If a dimension existed where a simple chemical reaction like gunpowder didn't work, it's basically a given that many other, more complex chemical reactions wouldn't work either - like many that are necessary for human life to continue. And if you say, "well, just because gunpowder doesn't work doesn't mean any other chemical reactions would be effected," you've basically proven my point that it's an arbitrary decision made with one purpose, and with no other thought behind it to the ramifications of such a decision.

As another example, if electricity doesn't function in another universe, or functioned significantly differently that electronics wouldn't function, well, then neither would the human brain and nervous system. Life depends on chemical reactions and physics working the way they do; if those are arbitrarily changed with no thought to any other impact it would have beyond making guns not work, it's a cop out to artificially "protect" a setting, inflate difficulty, or create challenge.

A reverse cop-out (a cop-in?) example of similarly inflated difficulty or challenge occurs in several computer RPGs, where, if a character happens to be a high level while going through the happy meadow, then all of the animals are replaced with undead ancient giant dire bears and wolves instead of the normal bears and wolves. It's lazy writing, transparent challenge-boosting, and a cop-out.

[Talavar]

Even beyond that, dimension book 7 - the dimension builder talks about how advanced technology from "positive" universes won't even work in "negative" universes. Both are cop-outs on the part of Palladium, and are ignored in any of my games.

Besides, even if you left it as MDC tech, you'd still run into a whole lot of problems:

1. Replacing ammunition. I doubt a traditional blacksmith would be able to manufacture replacement rail guns rounds out of the same MDC materials already used by the equipment. "Substandard" rounds may or may not work, will certainly do much lower damage (if not SDC damage), & will run a big risk of completely jamming the gun up.

Then there's missiles. Clean rooms for making replacement chips (or whatever replaces microcircuitry in Rifts) for guidance systems & arming circuits? No way. Chemical plants to create the high-grade explosives & plasma (with even modern-day equivalents well beyond the "black powder" tech that you might be able to introduce into PFRPG)? Highly doubtful.

And let's not forget energy weapons. Good luck finding the right crystals (or whatever is used) to repair your rifles -- assuming the character knows where to find the materials, & can take the time to mine & prepare them. Oh, & don't forget about the problem of recharging your e-Clips, too: electricity was pretty much limited to lightning bolts.

2. Replacing power supplies. As noted previously, electriciy generation would be extremely difficult to find in PFRPG. If you're lucky, you might be able to swing a windmill, but that would be about it. Hydroelectric? Very tough to build the turbines with blacksmith tech. Solar panels? About as difficult as new computer chips. Nuclear? Good luck trying to mine uranium/plutonium/radium for a fission reactor, & building a new fusion reactor with blacksmiths would be extremely frightening (makes Homer Simpson look like a Quality standard to shoot for).

3. General repairs & upkeep. Taking along an Operator with a full selection of tools & some spare parts is nice, but eventually he'll run out of some critical part that needs replaced. Again, there's no guarantee that the Operator knows how to fashion new replacement parts, & futuristic metallurgy is probably beyond the capabilities of Middle Age smithies.

Beyond that, there're the usual issues to worry about:
-- poisoned food (can't carry that many MREs)
-- poison gas (can't always wear a helmet or gas mask)
-- assassin bath attendants (unless you really like that funky smell after you've worn your armor for 7 straight days)
-- falling off cliffs (your robot may only have a few dents, but you'll be a broken pile of goo)
-- sheer numbers could overwhelm you, carry you off & drop you into a volcano
-- falling overboard in the deep ocean, & sinking past your "crush depth"

See my above post for why this rule is a cop-out; everything you've presented here I generally agree with, and, as KC pointed out, are reasons the cop-out rule is unnecessary.

[lather]

We easily accept dimensional hopping and elves with laser rifles but nit pick chemistry and electricity?

Nonetheless, it is not a cop-out. It is an issue of compatability. SDC worlds use SDC. MDC worlds use MDC. MDC converts to SDC in worlds in which MDC does not exist.

[lather]

We easily accept dimensional hopping and elves with laser rifles but nit pick chemistry and electricity?

Nonetheless, it is not a cop-out. It is an issue of compatability. SDC worlds use SDC. MDC worlds use MDC. MDC converts to SDC in worlds in which MDC does not exist.

Go back to your apricot sweater.

[Killer Cyborg]

We easily accept dimensional hopping and elves with laser rifles but nit pick chemistry and electricity?

Nonetheless, it is not a cop-out. It is an issue of compatability. SDC worlds use SDC. MDC worlds use MDC. MDC converts to SDC in worlds in which MDC does not exist.

Only neither MDC or SDC actually exist.
They're just measurements for damage.
It's like saying, "In this dimension, Miles don't exist. So any vehicle that travels x miles per hour now only travels x kilometers per hour."
It just doesn't make any sense.

[Killer Cyborg]

KC, sometimes I wonder that if everything in the universe was the way you wanted it, would your head explode?

Well, the head-exploding bit would be one thing that wouldn't be the way I wanted it...

Actually I always appreciate that you make people think, even if I do disagree with 40% of what you say.

[Killer Cyborg]

Look at it this way:

Reset the clock to back before the writers decided to add this rule.

Is there ANY in-game reason why weapons and armor would suddenly be 1/100th their normal power just because they switched dimensions?
Any logical reason why a laser pistol that is 100x more powerful than a .38 revolver should suddenly become exactly as powerful as a .38 revolver?
Why a rifle that can normally blow a basketball-sized hole through a brick wall should suddenly only dent the wall?

Reading the original Rifts book, did anybody here think, "Hey, I'll bet that if I took a laser pistol through a rift, it would suddenly become vastly less powerful! I mean, it only make sense..."

Would anybody hear buy it if Palladium proposed a new dimension, where any and all weapons that inflict x10 damage (like the 1d6x10 SDC damage explosive round for rifles) suddenly only inflict the normal damage, but all other weapons remain the same?

[lather]

Look at it this way:

Reset the clock to back before the writers decided to add this rule.

That is why it is an issue of compatibility.

Is there ANY in-game reason why weapons and armor would suddenly be 1/100th their normal power just because they switched dimensions?

No. Fortunately, weapons and armour are not 1/100th their normal power.

Any logical reason why a laser pistol that is 100x more powerful than a .38 revolver should suddenly become exactly as powerful as a .38 revolver?

How does that happen?

Why a rifle that can normally blow a basketball-sized hole through a brick wall should suddenly only dent the wall?

What rifle? What wall?

Reading the original Rifts book, did anybody here think, "Hey, I'll bet that if I took a laser pistol through a rift, it would suddenly become vastly less powerful! I mean, it only make sense..."

Probably not. Because that is not how it works.

Would anybody hear buy it if Palladium proposed a new dimension, where any and all weapons that inflict x10 damage (like the 1d6x10 SDC damage explosive round for rifles) suddenly only inflict the normal damage, but all other weapons remain the same?

Probably not. Then again, the issue is SDC/MDC, not numbers - even multipliers.

[Killer Cyborg]

Is there ANY in-game reason why weapons and armor would suddenly be 1/100th their normal power just because they switched dimensions?

No. Fortunately, weapons and armour are not 1/100th their normal power.

Yes, they are.
SDC is 1/100th as powerful as MDC.

Would anybody hear buy it if Palladium proposed a new dimension, where any and all weapons that inflict x10 damage (like the 1d6x10 SDC damage explosive round for rifles) suddenly only inflict the normal damage, but all other weapons remain the same?

Probably not. Then again, the issue is SDC/MDC, not numbers - even multipliers.

That's essentially all MDC is: a number multiplier.
1d6 MD is the same as 1d6x100 SDC.

So the JA-11 in Rifts does:
4d6x100 SDC damage with the laser
3d6x100 SDC damage with the ion beam
5d6 SDC with the bullet.

Same gun in BtS does:
4d6 SDC with the laser.
3d6 SDC with the ion
5d6 SDC with the bullet.

How's that make any kind of sense?

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually a laser pistol would do LESS damage than your average .38. At least to unarmored organics. Lasers pass straight through possibly cauterizing as it goes. Bullits tend to bounce around and go on scenic voyages inside body cavities pulverizing things as it goes. Hence people who are shot through and through tend to survive more often.

That's debatable.
In fact, it's been debated.
Many, many times.

One side thinks that lasers would do more than just poke clean holes, the other doesn't.
If you want to argue about it, resurrect one of those threads.

In the meantime, I'll bypass that argument by pointing out that the damage roll includes the weapon's penetration power.
Armor Piercing bullets don't do more damage than normal bullets because they bounce around more; they do more damage because they have better penetration.

The point is that a Wilk's laser pistol on Rifts Earth has a LOT better penetration than a .38.
A Wilk's can shoot through a brick wall without any problem.
A .38 can't.

But in BtS, suddenly the laser is a lot less powerful.
Which would make sense if the atmospheres were different or something, and it was just lasers, but it's not.
It's anything "mega-damage".

A LAW from Rifts Earth does 1d6x10 SDC.
A Mega-Damage LAW from Rifts Earth does 1d6 MD.
Take the same weapons to BtS Earth, and the Mega-Damage freakin' LAW rocket does as much damage as a punch, while the SDC LAW does the exact same damage.

[Kelorin]

I've been meaning to start a similar thread to this one for a bit, but since this one is already here...

You have a couple of choices to rationalize the rules as they currently stand.

1) If you accept the current Palladium rule that MDC technology gets magically converted to SDC equivalents in certain dimensions, you more or less have to accept that in the Palladium Megaverse, there is effectively no such thing as science, physics and technology. Instead of trying to rationalize magic by the laws of science, you are rationalizing technology by the laws of magic, which is to say anything goes. Simply put there is no rational reason why something that is a product of hyperscience would be affected that way. Therefore only irrational reasons apply.

Consider that there are no particularly convenient technological means of traversing dimensions, and thus most dimensional travel is in the realm of magic users, creatures of magic and supernatural creatures. To me, even Dimension Book 7 implies that magic is the glue that holds the megaverse together, not science. For the really big dimensional players, Alien Intelligences, and Gods, human science and technology is a flash in the pan, a passing fad, or an amusing curiosity, which has no bearing on 'how things really work'.

Thereforce these magical dimensional barriers themselves are the byproducts of the creation of the Megaverse, all of which may be the random dreaming of the Old Ones in the first place, so the darn barriers can affect MDC technology in any way they want because Xy, Erva & company say so. Further, Palladium is their home or protected personal dimension so if they don't want MDC magic or tech there, it doesn't get in. Period. Maybe MDC alloys instantly get replaced with styrofoam when entering non-MDC dimensions. Who knows.

[lather]

1d6 MD is the same as 1d6x100 SDC.

So the JA-11 in Rifts does:
4d6x100 SDC damage with the laser
3d6x100 SDC damage with the ion beam
5d6 SDC with the bullet.

Same gun in BtS does:
4d6 SDC with the laser.
3d6 SDC with the ion
5d6 SDC with the bullet.

How's that make any kind of sense?

It does not make any sense whatsoever.

A MD laser rifle in Rifts doing 4D6 MD would do 4D6x100 SDC in BtS.

A SDC hunting rifle in Rifts doing 7D6 SDC would do 7D6 SDC in BtS.

[Mouser13]

1d6 MD is the same as 1d6x100 SDC.

So the JA-11 in Rifts does:
4d6x100 SDC damage with the laser
3d6x100 SDC damage with the ion beam
5d6 SDC with the bullet.

Same gun in BtS does:
4d6 SDC with the laser.
3d6 SDC with the ion
5d6 SDC with the bullet.

How's that make any kind of sense?

It does not make any sense whatsoever.

A MD laser rifle in Rifts doing 4D6 MD would do 4D6x100 SDC in BtS.

A SDC hunting rifle in Rifts doing 7D6 SDC would do 7D6 SDC in BtS.

Its called balance. One thing I think you should ask why do in enviroment with M.D.C. magic does M.D.C.? If their high magic or not. Three galaxys has a example the whole level does have high magic, but magic does M.D.C. in it? Why, people want to play magic and want to be balanced.

Though personally I would have M.D.C. do triple S.D.C. because particle beam I believe does 2D6(maybe D8)X10 and in Rifts they do 1D4X10.

[Killer Cyborg]

1d6 MD is the same as 1d6x100 SDC.

So the JA-11 in Rifts does:
4d6x100 SDC damage with the laser
3d6x100 SDC damage with the ion beam
5d6 SDC with the bullet.

Same gun in BtS does:
4d6 SDC with the laser.
3d6 SDC with the ion
5d6 SDC with the bullet.

How's that make any kind of sense?

It does not make any sense whatsoever.

A MD laser rifle in Rifts doing 4D6 MD would do 4D6x100 SDC in BtS.

Only, according to the rules, it doesn't.
It does 4d6 SDC.

A SDC hunting rifle in Rifts doing 7D6 SDC would do 7D6 SDC in BtS.

Yes.

[Mouser13]

I know KC I was just giving him another option. Try to start why is Magic M.D.C. in three galaxies?.

[Kelorin]

Did anyone actually read my previous post?

Simply put, there is no way you to logically rationalize why only mega-powered weapons are affected when changing to supposedly SDC environments, and SDC weapons are unaffected, unless the dimensional barriers themselves are magical, and the barriers are selective about what they will let through.

Similarly, since Rifts is MDC environment and MDC tech going into an SDC environment like HU, BtS or Palladium gets nerfed, why doesn't the same barrier work in reverse, automatically magically turning SDC equipment from HU, BtS, and Palladium into MDC equipment when going into Rifts?

The Dimension barriers were deliberately set up by the designers to be arbitrary like that. In game, you'd have to chalk it up to the will of the Old Ones or something.

[lather]

A MD laser rifle in Rifts doing 4D6 MD would do 4D6x100 SDC in BtS.

Only, according to the rules, it doesn't.
It does 4d6 SDC.

Which rules, then, if not this one?

1d6 MD is the same as 1d6x100 SDC.

[lather]

Did anyone actually read my previous post?

Simply put, there is no way you to logically rationalize why only mega-powered weapons are affected when changing to supposedly SDC environments, and SDC weapons are unaffected, unless the dimensional barriers themselves are magical, and the barriers are selective about what they will let through.

Similarly, since Rifts is MDC environment and MDC tech going into an SDC environment like HU, BtS or Palladium gets nerfed, why doesn't the same barrier work in reverse, automatically magically turning SDC equipment from HU, BtS, and Palladium into MDC equipment when going into Rifts?

The Dimension barriers were deliberately set up by the designers to be arbitrary like that. In game, you'd have to chalk it up to the will of the Old Ones or something.

Different games, compatible with the Palladium megaverse, or multiple universes.

MDC does not get nerfed. It gets converted to fit the specific universe.

[Killer Cyborg]

A MD laser rifle in Rifts doing 4D6 MD would do 4D6x100 SDC in BtS.

Only, according to the rules, it doesn't.
It does 4d6 SDC.

Which rules, then, if not this one?

1d6 MD is the same as 1d6x100 SDC.

This one:
CB1r, p. 31
"Mega-Damage becomes SDC/HP damage like a 20th century handgun, rigle or machine-gun. The Wilk's 320 laser pistol inflicts 1d6 SDC/Hit Points instead of 1d6 MD, the NG-15 laser rifle inflicts 3d6 SDC/Hit Points insdtead of 3d6 MD, the NG-202 rail gun does 1d4x10 SDC per burst instead of Mega-Damage and works very much like a modern day machine-gun, and so on. The damage is proportional in an SDC world, the only difference in many cases is that these weapons fire energy bolts, not projectiles..."

[Killer Cyborg]

Did anyone actually read my previous post?

Yeah.
Read Transdimensional TMNT.

[lather]

Reading the original Rifts book, did anybody here think, "Hey, I'll bet that if I took a laser pistol through a rift, it would suddenly become vastly less powerful! I mean, it only make sense..."

This one:
CB1r, p. 31
"Mega-Damage becomes SDC/HP damage like a 20th century handgun, rigle or machine-gun. The Wilk's 320 laser pistol inflicts 1d6 SDC/Hit Points instead of 1d6 MD, the NG-15 laser rifle inflicts 3d6 SDC/Hit Points insdtead of 3d6 MD, the NG-202 rail gun does 1d4x10 SDC per burst instead of Mega-Damage and works very much like a modern day machine-gun, and so on. The damage is proportional in an SDC world, the only difference in many cases is that these weapons fire energy bolts, not projectiles..."

I only read the original Rifts book, which is also the book I thought we were talking about. And there the conversion is straight 1:100.

That rule you quoted from CB indeed does not make any sense, however.

[Killer Cyborg]

I only read the original Rifts book, which is also the book I thought we were talking about. And there the conversion is straight 1:100.

The original Rifts book does not ever mentioning taking Rifts weapons or characters into BtS or other SDC settings.

That rule you quoted from CB indeed does not make any sense, however.

That's all I'm saying.

[lather]

I only read the original Rifts book, which is also the book I thought we were talking about. And there the conversion is straight 1:100.

The original Rifts book does not ever mentioning taking Rifts weapons or characters into BtS or other SDC settings.

True, but it does say 1MD = 100 SDC, which allows you to take Rifts weapons into BtS without any problems whatsoever.

That rule you quoted from CB indeed does not make any sense, however.

That's all I'm saying.

:ok:

[Talavar]

Well....

Apart from the remote possibility that the base physics of the world could be different. Fire is cold, water feels dry, Pauly Shore is funny.... different magnectic field flows may mess with electronics etc.

If the base laws of physics of the world are different, then they would apply to more things than just weapons and armour, as I was saying. In a world where chemistry and physics don't work as expected, the human body also shouldn't work as expected, or at all.

There is the simple fact that its easier to convert an item to fit a game system than to have a game system change to fit an item. Should they start converting the rules for Psionics and spells in all the SDC game systems because some GM let a player get his hands on a set of Deadboy Armor and a C-27 Plasma ejector?

For example. CS SAMAS soldier appears in PF in full gear. By rifts rules nothing really is going to affect him. No weapons, no magics or at least very few etc etc. And his weapons take out dragons in 1 hit. Instant God. Not very good for game balance. I mean NOTHING is suppose to be undeafeatable right?

What happened in the real world when people with guns and steel fought people without both? That's what should happen to the extreme when someone in MDC armour with energy weapons goes to a medieval setting or modern day setting. A person in MDC armour with MDC energy weapons would be like unto a god, at least until they have to go to the bathroom, or run out of ammunition.

But there are enchanted weapons that are indestructable. MDC is not indestructable. Thus a indestructable weapon should be able to damage MDC. And even in Rifts SDC weapons can damage MDC it just takes alot. So whats the diff if your sheet says 75MDC or 7500sdc? (I'm not sure of the conversion rules so am going by what I know)

Even indestructible magic items don't do MDC in a low-magic world. And the conversion in these dimensional travelling cases isn't 1 MDC = 100 SDC, but 1:1, so a suit of 80 MDC armour becomes a suit of 80 SDC armour, and an energy weapon that does 5d6 MD does 5d6 SDC, if it functions at all.

Now as for magic, different worlds have different levels of available magical influences. Thus that supernatural creature that gains it abilities being in a magic rich realm would suffer being stripped of that power right? Kinda like how some creatures are more powerful in their home planes and are weaker in other planes.

It makes sense that magic changes, because it has an outside requirement necessary to become MDC, namely the presence of a lot of magic. Dimensions/worlds that don't have much magic won't be able to support MDC magic. MDC technology, however, is supposed to be based on science, which is based on physical laws. For those to alter with dimensional travel leads to those problems I brought up earlier, about the human body, which is also based on functioning physical laws, no longer working right either.

[Talavar]

Its called balance. One thing I think you should ask why do in enviroment with M.D.C. magic does M.D.C.? If their high magic or not. Three galaxys has a example the whole level does have high magic, but magic does M.D.C. in it? Why, people want to play magic and want to be balanced.

It's done in the name of balance, but that doesn't prevent it from being a cop-out, meta-game rationalization and authorial fiat.

I'm not up on Phase World entirely, but if the dimension isn't one of high magic, then magic shouldn't do MDC there.

[Noon]

I thought this bugged people because it's purely meta game. Kind of like when doctor who regenerates not really for any pure imaginary world reason, but because the actor decided to leave.

Here it's for a pretty stark metagame reason.

Personally I don't think that stops you from working out gameworld reasons for it that makes sense.

But I think that for people who are really bugged by that metagame reason, you can't please 'em. They have a real world beef with someone.

[KillWatch]

It may be a copout but it is inherently flawed if they are suggesting that MDC would have always been treated this way on PF. See a long time ago there was this thing called the TIme of A Thousand Magics which in the books is referred to as being like rifts earth levels in power so right there it's saying to me that it did have MDC magics

Now I could see the time of a thousand magics and the whole elf/dwarf war majorly messin up the world and the magic content but then I have another problem, Gods and Supernatural Beings like Demons Dragons etc. Why would they be affected? They are after all gods and cosmic beings after all. Or at least a dragon should retain everything it is just because some short lived elves and dwarves decide to go crazy and start tearing the world in half,.... They were mortals and even if they did have that kindo f power, it should not have been anything close to that of dragons or gods. So I say MDC for dragons Demons and Gods in PF.

[JTwig]

Similarly, since Rifts is MDC environment and MDC tech going into an SDC environment like HU, BtS or Palladium gets nerfed, why doesn't the same barrier work in reverse, automatically magically turning SDC equipment from HU, BtS, and Palladium into MDC equipment when going into Rifts?

Actually in Aliens Unlimited for HU2 it does have conversion notes, albeit minimal, about the various races in a Rifts/Phase World setting, including whether or not their tech would be M.D.C. in a M.D.C. environment. I would think that at least the Atorians would defiantly have their equipment turn into M.D.C. in a Rifts/Robotech/Phase World setting.

[JTwig]

It may be a copout but it is inherently flawed if they are suggesting that MDC would have always been treated this way on PF. See a long time ago there was this thing called the TIme of A Thousand Magics which in the books is referred to as being like rifts earth levels in power so right there it's saying to me that it did have MDC magics

You're right if the Palladium dimension was M.D.C. compatible/friendly, then their would have been M.D.C. magic during the Chaos War (were the Old Ones were defeated), not sure what the magic levels were like during the time of a thousand magics but I do know that magic knowledge was at its height in the setting, but its not so their most likely was never M.D.C. in the setting. I mean, if it was M.D.C. compatible/friendly then we wouldn't be having this conversation about M.D.C. tech in the setting.

I think the problem isn't the rule that states some setting are not compatible with M.D.C., but M.D.C. itself. Not only does it create problems in its own setting, ask any Rifts player (don't know of a group that hasn't had an issue pop up at least once, no matter how minor), but when combined with non-M.D.C. setting it creates even bigger problems and headaches. In fact the only setting it ever really worked in was Robotech (50+ft tall robots with 250 or less M.D.C. actually make sense), and it even eventually started to get out of hand.

[Talavar]

Now I could see the time of a thousand magics and the whole elf/dwarf war majorly messin up the world and the magic content but then I have another problem, Gods and Supernatural Beings like Demons Dragons etc. Why would they be affected? They are after all gods and cosmic beings after all. Or at least a dragon should retain everything it is just because some short lived elves and dwarves decide to go crazy and start tearing the world in half,.... They were mortals and even if they did have that kindo f power, it should not have been anything close to that of dragons or gods. So I say MDC for dragons Demons and Gods in PF.

If dragons and gods were MDC on the Palladium Fantasy world during its great age of magic (a reasonable proposition), they would cease to be MDC when the magic level fell to a point that they were no longer so empowered. They would be effected because the ambient magic in that universe fell to a point that could no longer sustain such abilities.

[Talavar]

Personally I don't think that stops you from working out gameworld reasons for it that makes sense.

It never makes sense to me that, according to this rule, lasers, particle beams or plasma explosives - these advanced, sci-fi weapons - suddenly do less damage than the rifles and other SDC weapons they supposedly replaced when taken to an "SDC" universe.

[Mouser13]

It may be a copout but it is inherently flawed if they are suggesting that MDC would have always been treated this way on PF. See a long time ago there was this thing called the TIme of A Thousand Magics which in the books is referred to as being like rifts earth levels in power so right there it's saying to me that it did have MDC magics

Now I could see the time of a thousand magics and the whole elf/dwarf war majorly messin up the world and the magic content but then I have another problem, Gods and Supernatural Beings like Demons Dragons etc. Why would they be affected? They are after all gods and cosmic beings after all. Or at least a dragon should retain everything it is just because some short lived elves and dwarves decide to go crazy and start tearing the world in half,.... They were mortals and even if they did have that kindo f power, it should not have been anything close to that of dragons or gods. So I say MDC for dragons Demons and Gods in PF.

Their is no reference for M.D.C. in PFRPG, far has we know it always been S.D.C.. What was getting at was that if M.D.C. weapons exist magic does M.D.C.(Three galaxies has a reference). It no longer has anything to do with magic levels. It just balance anymore.

[Killer Cyborg]

What was getting at was that if M.D.C. weapons exist magic does M.D.C.(Three galaxies has a reference). It no longer has anything to do with magic levels. It just balance anymore.

That's why it's a cop-out. The original idea, that magic did Mega-Damage on Rifts Earth because the magic levels were extremely high, that worked.
It made sense (more or less).
But the new idea, that magic does MDC on Rifts Earth because it's just a MDC setting, that doesn't work.
It even negates a lot of the coolness of the setting, because Rifts Earth is still supposed to be filled with huge amounts of magical energy, and the ley-lines are still supposed to be vastly more powerful than BtS or other SDC settings, but there's no actual effect from it other than ley-lines being visible at night and the occasional ley-line storm or random rift.

[Talavar]

However, in the interest of fairness, there needs to be some "nerfing" because of magic. Whether or not you get to an SDC universe by magic, tech, or some other means, mages & spell-casters automatically get "nerfed", because only the SDC versions of their spells are available there. Not to mention the "nerfing" of all TW items.

So, I would be willing to see a different multiple used (say, 1 M.D.C. = 10 S.D.C.), to mirror the conversion of the missile table. That would give the SAMAS a "machine gun" equal in power to a light tank gun (say, 76mm class), with multiple burst capability, and more S.D.C. than an M1 Abrams tank, with its flight capability intact -- plus effectively carrying 2 LAW rockets. But I'm not willing to say "no nerfing of technology".

You're making a common mistake, thinking RPGs are balanced, or that they should be. There is no fairness. A does not equal B does not equal C. Rogue scholars aren't balanced with Glitterboy pilots, and the Beyond the Supernatural setting isn't balanced with Phase World. In a low-magic world, magic isn't balanced with MDC technology. The existing rule is broken and unnecessary so it should be ignored, not further "fixed."

[Killer Cyborg]

what reason would the players or GM have for deliberately traveling from Rifts to "slum it" over in the HU2 dimension, if not to try and take over an SDC world with their MDC weapons?

-Protect that SDC world from other MDC invaders
-Fight super-villians that were on par with the party's capabilities (MDC weapons don't mean squat to an Invulnerable foe)
-Teach the players responsible weapon use by putting them in an environment where they can't just blaze away mindlessly, because they'll level an entire city block (or more) trying to stop a mugger.
-Explore the characters by seeing what they would do (which is the essence of role-playing, BTW). Patent their high-tech gizmos? Become Super Heroes? Become villains? Try to retire, happy that they're no longer in a hostile, post-apocalyptic world? Try to stop the Coming of the Rifts from ever happening? If so, how far are they willing to go to try to stop it?
-LET them try to take over. It ain't going to happen, not against the modern-day US military. Especially not against super-heroes.

Nothing wrong with a story arc where the PCs are accidentally transported... but "nerfing" their MDC tech to a lower level prevents them from taking too much advantage with it.

Why bother? It's not an issue.
Are you playing with an Evil group of PCs?
If so, then that's fine. Trying to take over an entire world will be impossible. They might take over a small nation or kingdom, but that's cool. The campaign turns from small-party combat to a bigger story of international politics and war.
If they're NOT evil, then what are you worried about?

Besides, even if you left it as MDC tech, you'd still run into a whole lot of problems:

1. Replacing ammunition. I doubt a traditional blacksmith would be able to manufacture replacement rail guns rounds out of the same MDC materials already used by the equipment. "Substandard" rounds may or may not work, will certainly do much lower damage (if not SDC damage), & will run a big risk of completely jamming the gun up.

Then there's missiles. Clean rooms for making replacement chips (or whatever replaces microcircuitry in Rifts) for guidance systems & arming circuits? No way. Chemical plants to create the high-grade explosives & plasma (with even modern-day equivalents well beyond the "black powder" tech that you might be able to introduce into PFRPG)? Highly doubtful.

And let's not forget energy weapons. Good luck finding the right crystals (or whatever is used) to repair your rifles -- assuming the character knows where to find the materials, & can take the time to mine & prepare them. Oh, & don't forget about the problem of recharging your e-Clips, too: electricity was pretty much limited to lightning bolts.

2. Replacing power supplies. As noted previously, electriciy generation would be extremely difficult to find in PFRPG. If you're lucky, you might be able to swing a windmill, but that would be about it. Hydroelectric? Very tough to build the turbines with blacksmith tech. Solar panels? About as difficult as new computer chips. Nuclear? Good luck trying to mine uranium/plutonium/radium for a fission reactor, & building a new fusion reactor with blacksmiths would be extremely frightening (makes Homer Simpson look like a Quality standard to shoot for).

3. General repairs & upkeep. Taking along an Operator with a full selection of tools & some spare parts is nice, but eventually he'll run out of some critical part that needs replaced. Again, there's no guarantee that the Operator knows how to fashion new replacement parts, & futuristic metallurgy is probably beyond the capabilities of Middle Age smithies.

Beyond that, there're the usual issues to worry about:
-- poisoned food (can't carry that many MREs)
-- poison gas (can't always wear a helmet or gas mask)
-- assassin bath attendants (unless you really like that funky smell after you've worn your armor for 7 straight days)
-- falling off cliffs (your robot may only have a few dents, but you'll be a broken pile of goo)
-- sheer numbers could overwhelm you, carry you off & drop you into a volcano
-- falling overboard in the deep ocean, & sinking past your "crush depth"

Which are all reasons why it's unnecessary to make the rule that certain dimensions can't support mega-damage.
Which leaves us with an official rule that not only doesn't make sense, but that serves no real purpose within the game.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you there.

Why?

Besides, there are some upshots to the "nerfed" technology...

No, there are some ways in which the technology is NOT nerfed.
That's not the same as an upshot; it's still a downshot from where you should be.

However, in the interest of fairness, there needs to be some "nerfing" because of magic. Whether or not you get to an SDC universe by magic, tech, or some other means, mages & spell-casters automatically get "nerfed", because only the SDC versions of their spells are available there. Not to mention the "nerfing" of all TW items.

Yes, magic automatically gets nerfed in a low-magic environment.
But I don't see why that's a problem.

[Mouser13]

Yes, magic automatically gets nerfed in a low-magic environment.
But I don't see why that's a problem.

It's called balance. People want to play magic users no matter what setting you are in. So they want them to be balance. If their is no way to defend against a M.D.C. blast it shouldn't be M.D.C.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes, magic automatically gets nerfed in a low-magic environment.
But I don't see why that's a problem.

It's called balance. People want to play magic users no matter what setting you are in. So they want them to be balance. If their is no way to defend against a M.D.C. blast it shouldn't be M.D.C.

Actually, depending on the group, nobody might want to play a mage.

But for groups where there ARE mages:
-Mages still have their MDC tech weapons and armor.
-Many spells don't inflict Mega-Damage, even in Rifts, and would be just as effective in an SDC setting.
-Why would a PC mage in HU need to worry about defending against a MD blast, unless one of his fellow PCs was shooting at him?

[Natasha]

Only other option is he defending against another MDC invader.

I think there is no use to rationalise this horrible rule. There is no use to use this horrible rule, too. This rule is useless.

I say just use the rule that says 1 MD = 100 SDC. It is the better rule, by a lot, I think.

[glitterboy2098]

Their is no reference for M.D.C. in PFRPG, far has we know it always been S.D.C.. What was getting at was that if M.D.C. weapons exist magic does M.D.C.(Three galaxies has a reference). It no longer has anything to do with magic levels. It just balance anymore.

actually, MDC tech and MDC magic are not related. MDC magic is based on the amount of magic energy ambient in the setting. MDC technology is a quirk of physics in a setting.

so you can have MDC technology in a low magic setting. after all, earth made MDC tech in Chaos Earth/Rifts long before the cataclysm, when magic was at the SDC BtS levels.

if a setting can support MDC it can support either. but that does not mean magic will be at MDC levels because technology is, or that technology will be MDC because magic is.

I say just use the rule that says 1 MD = 100 SDC. It is the better rule, by a lot, I think.

i agree. having a 3D6md rifle turn 3D6x100sd is much better than it suddenly being 3D6sd. or alternatel, perhaps only a tenfold increase, where in non MDC worlds the MDC tech converts at a rate of 1mdc = 10sdc. then that 3D6md rifle is 3D6x10sd, a bit less powerful and easier to balance.

either way, MDC losses the "no SDC weapon can scratch it" trait.