Kisentite Weapons

[Killer Cyborg]

according to AU:GG p65 Kisentite weapons will inflict MD in Phase World setting.

arrows do 2D6 in the main AUbook.

how much for bullets ? (say a ramjet round) I gotta think it can do better than a Wellington Ind round which does 1MD. Say 1D4 each ? double cost ? triple cost ?

I'd say none.

Of course, I think it's really stupid for Kisentite weapons to do MD in the first place. There's no logical reason for it.

[Killer Cyborg]

I guess you'll have to take that up with Wayne Breaux.

I would love to.
If, in fact, I haven't already done so.

From what I've seen, Breaux never like mega-damage, and didn't really understand it.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's easy: anything cool in Palladiumb does MD

Yeah, that's pretty much how it's seen these days.

Personally I'd scrap half the PB ruleset and ignore half the books. But that's me.

I'm ever-so-slowly working on my own system.
It's easier in the long run, because once I have it fixed, nobody's going to come up with even more screwed up rules for me to repair or ignore.

[glitterboy2098]

Of course, I think it's really stupid for Kisentite weapons to do MD in the first place. There's no logical reason for it.

i'd limit it to bladed weapons only myself. with the idea that the blades have been forged to have a monomolecular edge, which cuts through the hardest materials like they were butter.
thats only way i can see it working.

a kisenite club or blunt weapon would just be a near indestructable SDC weapon.

[Killer Cyborg]

Of course, I think it's really stupid for Kisentite weapons to do MD in the first place. There's no logical reason for it.

i'd limit it to bladed weapons only myself. with the idea that the blades have been forged to have a monomolecular edge, which cuts through the hardest materials like they were butter.
thats only way i can see it working.

Problem being that:
a) Kisentite weapons don't have a monomolecular edge (at least, none is mentioned)
b) Unless the entire blade was about as thin as the edge, it still wouldn't penetrate significantly. Which is why we use saws to cut stone and other really strong materials, not knives.
c) The sharpest, strongest sword in the world probably still shouldn't do straight Mega-Damage, because the area damaged isn't necessarily going to be that great.
Take a sword that's strong enough and sharp enough to cut through anything (SDC). When you swing it at somebody, there are several things that can happen:
-A miss. No damage.
-A perfect hit. With this kind of sword, that would mean bisecting the target, horizontally or vertically.
-An imperfect hit. For example, instead of cleaving the target in half, you gash their side. The blade will go all the way through, but so would a normal SDC blade; it's not a killing blow.
Or maybe you stab the target through the stomach.
Again, you're not going to do any more damage than an SDC sword woudl do, because SDC swords are already capable of impaling somebody.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm ever-so-slowly working on my own system.
It's easier in the long run, because once I have it fixed, nobody's going to come up with even more screwed up rules for me to repair or ignore.

let's see, you're the <checks ledger> 3,219,871st person to move from PB to their own game system I've met since coming here around 2003.

truth be told, If I could find GURPS players, I'd drop PB in a heartbeat.

Yeah, GURPS is a good system.
In designing my own game, I often came up with the best combination of realism and simplicity in a rule, only to realize that GURPS had already done it.

But it's just not that fun to play for some reason.

[Killer Cyborg]

well, part of it is: should this do more damage. to me a bullet, is a bullet is a bullet, no matter what the slug is made of. I don't know the hardness of DU rounds and whether that figures into things or not.

looking at DU, it seems they're "heavy" and I have to think Kisentite is equal to that, if not moreso.

One of the main reasons I want K-bullets is to make machine guns and bullet-weapons worthwhile and usuable.

I'd probably scrap MD/MDC if I had my druthers.

It's not just the material of the bullet, it's the power behind the bullet.
At best, I'd treat it about like a Ramjet Round.

of course I look at the C-5 pump pistol and the only reason I can think of that doing damage is because it's "pump" (eg, the "high explosive") but why this is more damaging than any other gun and can do 100x the SDC equivalent kinda eludes me.

It's because it's grenade launcher, not a normal gun.

[Rallan]

well, part of it is: should this do more damage. to me a bullet, is a bullet is a bullet, no matter what the slug is made of. I don't know the hardness of DU rounds and whether that figures into things or not.

Harder rounds generally do less damage. They'll pass right through your body (or come to rest inside it you they're moving slow enough) without significantly deforming, and you basically get a bullet-sized hole going right through you. Softer rounds (like, say, ordinary lead bullets) tend to deform and "mushroom" on impact, which means the hole they're ripping through is significantly wider by the time it exits than it was when it hit you.

Basically the advantage of a harder round isn't the damage it does to people, it's the better penetration. It'll punch right through cover or body armor that would've stopped a lead round in its tracks, and still have enough kinetic energy to injure a person on the other side. So if a Rifts character were to cast bullets out of MDC alloys, they wouldn't automatically do MDC. In fact, they'd inflict less damage than normal bullets. They'd basically just be really expensive armour-piercing rounds that are slightly more effective against SDC armor than normal armour-piercing rounds of the same mass and calibre.

of course I look at the C-5 pump pistol and the only reason I can think of that doing damage is because it's "pump" (eg, the "high explosive") but why this is more damaging than any other gun and can do 100x the SDC equivalent kinda eludes me.

Yeah that's always mystified me. An awful lot of weapons in Rifts are pretty damn low-tech apart from the projectiles they fire, and yet they cost a mint. The old TX-16 Triax Pump Rifle costs 30,000 credits, even though all it does is prime and launch the explosive shell. You could quite literally make a fully functional knock-off entirely from SDC parts with 20th century technology, yet the PCs are expected to pay about a year's wages for 'em.

[Killer Cyborg]

"Harder rounds generally do less damage"-Rallan
That's one of the many arguements among hunters/ firearms enthusiasts. There is some truth to it, but most scientists now say that the meplat [the flat front of the bullet] does the most damage. Thus, flat nosed large caliber bullets are generally more effective. Of course, the amount of propellent also increases damage to some extent. Then you have shot placement, bullet weight, sectional density, psychological state of the shootee, etc... ad naseum. Most of the old Professional hunters preffered big caliber, flatter-nosed, heavy bullets, with a high relative hardness, It seems that PB uses the same idea in general. The most used scientific formula is called the Taylor Knock Out Formula [TKO]; it's based on bullet diameter, bullet weight, and velocity. Harder cast [higher antimony] bullets are understood in this formula. Of course, for smaller, lighter game [like humans], softer bullets are preferred by some for their limited expansion qualities [even hollow points rarely expand when fired from handguns]. In fact, Col. Jeff Cooper, rest his soul, the man accredited with founding "Modern" handgun combat carried flat-nosed copper coated heavy bullets [230-235gr .45acp] until the day he died [late last year/early this year]
As to the C-5, and its ilk, explosives do more damage to surrounding things than do impact hits; combining the two is awesome.

The other thing is that the Palladium damage system includes both actual damage AND penetration.
Which is why AP rifle rounds simply do more damage than normal rounds for the same gun.

[Rallan]

well, no matter what, Kisentite would make excellent Caltrops, though probably expensive.

K-Cals would be nice to scatter around an area to protect your back.

Only if ther'es a logical reason for Kisentite caltrops to go through an MDC-armoured foot when equally sharp caltrops made from other substances don't

[Killer Cyborg]

The other thing is that the Palladium damage system includes both actual damage AND penetration.
Which is why AP rifle rounds simply do more damage than normal rounds for the same gun.

but not for MD armor or weapons... right ?

It works the same way with MD.

[Sureshot]

I'd say none.

Of course, I think it's really stupid for Kisentite weapons to do MD in the first place. There's no logical reason for it.

"It's Rifts it doesn't have to make sense". . All kidding aside I agree with you. As Gadrin has mentioned if it's remotely cool it does MD.

And

Yeah that's always mystified me. An awful lot of weapons in Rifts are pretty damn low-tech apart from the projectiles they fire, and yet they cost a mint. The old TX-16 Triax Pump Rifle costs 30,000 credits, even though all it does is prime and launch the explosive shell. You could quite literally make a fully functional knock-off entirely from SDC parts with 20th century technology, yet the PCs are expected to pay about a year's wages for 'em.

Rifts as a whole has always had prices that make no sense. I can understand Power Armor, Vehicles and Robots being expensive as they require resources to prodice but hand weapons prices have always made me shake my head and wonder what they were thinking. Hell it costs between 1,200 to 1,500 credits to charge a regular E-clip and 2,000 to 2,500 to for a long clip.

[Killer Cyborg]

If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

gah, what was that from ? I remember having it on my sig a year or two back...but I've forgotten.

Murphy's Laws of Combat.

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

according to AU:GG p65 Kisentite weapons will inflict MD in Phase World setting.

arrows do 2D6 in the main AUbook.

how much for bullets ? (say a ramjet round) I gotta think it can do better than a Wellington Ind round which does 1MD. Say 1D4 each ? double cost ? triple cost ?

Well, it says they inflict MD in Phase World because Kisentite is an MD material.

Of course, I see a number of problems with trying to make Kisentite rounds for guns:

1. Security. The laser forges used by the Kisents to make the Kisentite weapons is so ultra-secret that a) no one else has been able to duplicate it yet, and b) no Kisentite weapons of any sort have ever made it to Rifts Earth.

unfortunately there is a whole mess of pirates I think in either CS Navy or Free Quebec books that are all outfitted with Kisenite weaponry and Amultes of Armor of Ithan as well