Possessing Entity vs. Soul Drinking

[Nekira Sudacne]

Souldrinkers need to draw blood in order to work!

Possessing entities do not have blood.

Ergo, they do not need to save.

The poor possessed person needs to save though >.>

[Killer Cyborg]

Souldrinkers need to draw blood in order to work!

Possessing entities do not have blood.

Ergo, they do not need to save.

The poor possessed person needs to save though >.>

Good point.

On the other hand, the blood of the person they're possessing might well count as the entity's blood, though.
Possession is nine tenths of the law.

They own and control the body, they own and control the blood.

I could see it being ruled either way.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Souldrinkers need to draw blood in order to work!

Possessing entities do not have blood.

Ergo, they do not need to save.

The poor possessed person needs to save though >.>

Good point.

On the other hand, the blood of the person they're possessing might well count as the entity's blood, though.
Possession is nine tenths of the law.

They own and control the body, they own and control the blood.

I could see it being ruled either way.

Blood is a mystical connection to a person, not the spirit.

[Killer Cyborg]

Souldrinkers need to draw blood in order to work!

Possessing entities do not have blood.

Ergo, they do not need to save.

The poor possessed person needs to save though >.>

Good point.

On the other hand, the blood of the person they're possessing might well count as the entity's blood, though.
Possession is nine tenths of the law.

They own and control the body, they own and control the blood.

I could see it being ruled either way.

Blood is a mystical connection to a person, not the spirit.

That's one opinion.
But not the only opinion.

The books give no indication either way.

[verdilak]

Souldrinkers need to draw blood in order to work!

Possessing entities do not have blood.

Ergo, they do not need to save.

The poor possessed person needs to save though >.>

Good point.

On the other hand, the blood of the person they're possessing might well count as the entity's blood, though.
Possession is nine tenths of the law.

They own and control the body, they own and control the blood.

I could see it being ruled either way.

I am going to go with Killer here. I can see it going both ways.

Although, and forget about the blood thing, is that a soul drinker drinks souls, and entities do not have them as far as I assume.

[mobuttu]

I'm with killer Cyb this time.

Let's put it on the Soul-Drinker point of view:

"I'm a sword able to drink souls from the body I cut. Suddently I get myself bleeding a body and 'Oh surprise' I find a body with two souls inside (we can all agree that ghosts and entities are indeed what we could say non-went souls). What should I do?

1) Drink only the soul intimately bond to the blood I'm drinking.
2) The more the best, or two birds with one stone. Drink them both.
3) Drink the post powerful one (more PPE), which happen to be the one with more presence (sort of).
4) Only drink the soul in charge (possessing entity). As the other one is "cornered in a tiny ethereal hole of the body".

I think the more "rules logical" choices (as long as logic could apply in a fiction game) are for options 1 (rules lawyer choice ), 2 (Devil GM choice ) and 4 (narrativist choice )

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm with killer Cyb this time.

Let's put it on the Soul-Drinker point of view:

"I'm a sword able to drink souls from the body I cut. Suddently I get myself bleeding a body and 'Oh surprise' I find a body with two souls inside (we can all agree that ghosts and entities are indeed what we could say non-went souls). What should I do?

1) Drink only the soul intimately bond to the blood I'm drinking.
2) The more the best, or two birds with one stone. Drink them both.
3) Drink the post powerful one (more PPE), which happen to be the one with more presence (sort of).
4) Only drink the soul in charge (possessing entity). As the other one is "cornered in a tiny ethereal hole of the body".

I think the more "rules logical" choices (as long as logic could apply in a fiction game) are for options 1 (rules lawyer choice ), 2 (Devil GM choice ) and 4 (narrativist choice )

Or roll 1d4 and go with whichever option comes up.

[The Beast]

I side with Nekira, and here's why. When you attack someone to get rid of a possessing entity, you're just attacking the body. If you kill said person, the entity just moves on to the next victim. It has no ill effects. Therefore, the poor soul you just smack with a soul drinker needs to make the save.

[verdilak]

I side with Nekira, and here's why. When you attack someone to get rid of a possessing entity, you're just attacking the body. If you kill said person, the entity just moves on to the next victim. It has no ill effects. Therefore, the poor soul you just smack with a soul drinker needs to make the save.

I can see it going both ways.... however, when attacked with a soul drinker, the victim must roll to save against it. The body, which is being controlled by the entity is who is rolling to save, with the entity's bonuses to save. Same with Magic being used or Psionics.

So it's the entitiy who would get sucked in, that is, if you feel that an entity is enough like a soul for the drinker weapon to drink it up.

Otherwise, then you saying that when magic or psionics are used against a body that is possessed that require saves automatically work.

[Killer Cyborg]

I side with Nekira, and here's why. When you attack someone to get rid of a possessing entity, you're just attacking the body. If you kill said person, the entity just moves on to the next victim. It has no ill effects. Therefore, the poor soul you just smack with a soul drinker needs to make the save.

I can see it going both ways.... however, when attacked with a soul drinker, the victim must roll to save against it. The body, which is being controlled by the entity is who is rolling to save, with the entity's bonuses to save. Same with Magic being used or Psionics.

So it's the entitiy who would get sucked in, that is, if you feel that an entity is enough like a soul for the drinker weapon to drink it up.

Otherwise, then you saying that when magic or psionics are used against a body that is possessed that require saves automatically work.

Hm.

Under the description of Possessing Entity (DC 83), it lists saving throw bonuses in with combat bonuses, and finishes up with:
"All apply to physical form too."
So when you cast a spell at somebody who is possessed, they have +2 vs. magic, +2 vs. Psionics, and +10 vs. Horror Factor.
The book doesn't say whether these bonuses stack with the host's bonuses, or if they overlap.

[The Beast]

I side with Nekira, and here's why. When you attack someone to get rid of a possessing entity, you're just attacking the body. If you kill said person, the entity just moves on to the next victim. It has no ill effects. Therefore, the poor soul you just smack with a soul drinker needs to make the save.

I can see it going both ways.... however, when attacked with a soul drinker, the victim must roll to save against it. The body, which is being controlled by the entity is who is rolling to save, with the entity's bonuses to save. Same with Magic being used or Psionics.

So it's the entitiy who would get sucked in, that is, if you feel that an entity is enough like a soul for the drinker weapon to drink it up.

Otherwise, then you saying that when magic or psionics are used against a body that is possessed that require saves automatically work.

Hm.

Under the description of Possessing Entity (DC 83), it lists saving throw bonuses in with combat bonuses, and finishes up with:
"All apply to physical form too."
So when you cast a spell at somebody who is possessed, they have +2 vs. magic, +2 vs. Psionics, and +10 vs. Horror Factor.
The book doesn't say whether these bonuses stack with the host's bonuses, or if they overlap.

I'd stack the physical ones, and leave the mental ones seperate. The body's physical characteristics normally don't change with possession.

[verdilak]

I side with Nekira, and here's why. When you attack someone to get rid of a possessing entity, you're just attacking the body. If you kill said person, the entity just moves on to the next victim. It has no ill effects. Therefore, the poor soul you just smack with a soul drinker needs to make the save.

I can see it going both ways.... however, when attacked with a soul drinker, the victim must roll to save against it. The body, which is being controlled by the entity is who is rolling to save, with the entity's bonuses to save. Same with Magic being used or Psionics.

So it's the entitiy who would get sucked in, that is, if you feel that an entity is enough like a soul for the drinker weapon to drink it up.

Otherwise, then you saying that when magic or psionics are used against a body that is possessed that require saves automatically work.

Hm.

Under the description of Possessing Entity (DC 83), it lists saving throw bonuses in with combat bonuses, and finishes up with:
"All apply to physical form too."
So when you cast a spell at somebody who is possessed, they have +2 vs. magic, +2 vs. Psionics, and +10 vs. Horror Factor.
The book doesn't say whether these bonuses stack with the host's bonuses, or if they overlap.

I'd stack the physical ones, and leave the mental ones seperate. The body's physical characteristics normally don't change with possession.

I could agree with stacking, since the possessed is in a coma-like state... and I think even if you are in a coma, you still get your saves.

I still feel that an entity isnt technically a soul, otherwise you could soul-drink an entity outside of a body, but there is nothing that states that you can actually do that. They are mainly made up of ectoplasm, like ghosts, so the soul drinker would be useless against them in that regard. However, it would suck the soul of the host, and the entity would have to flee it...

[mobuttu]

I still feel that an entity isnt technically a soul, otherwise you could soul-drink an entity outside of a body, but there is nothing that states that you can actually do that. They are mainly made up of ectoplasm, like ghosts, so the soul drinker would be useless against them in that regard. However, it would suck the soul of the host, and the entity would have to flee it...

Entities are indeed described as ghost, spirits, wraiths and other aparitions in Dark Conversions book. Moreover in RWB29: Madhaven also consider entities as spirits from the dead (so, I do understant that they are efectively souls). Even entities are affected by the Exorcism power which is described to affect spirits.

On the other side, soul drinking only triggers by bleeding the victim, so a Souldrinking sword isn't able to drink and entity directly without bleeding it.

[Vrykolas2k]

A soul drinker weapon is not going to snag the possesing entity. They are not corpreal beings. Possesing entities [except in rare exceptions], are only able to posses living bodies. The soul is still attached to the body and thus would be subject to the saving throw versus the sould drinker.

Souls aren't corporeal either... I'd say it could go either way. I see entities as just another spirit-form,and so is a "living soul". Now whether an entity has SOUL, I don't know. Maybe if it sings B.B. King...

[Mouser13]

Personally, I think it would work but it would kill them both or both are not harmed. YOu could say since the person spirt is not able to control the body spirt is not their for it to drink ie the enity acts has a shield, but again their is no clearly defined rules for this.


Though personally he has a rune-sword souldrinking but can't get access some other way to removing. I guess it would have to capture his friend which would not be easy.

[mobuttu]

[quote="DiceMan"]
1) entities are not souls. They are "creatures" from another world.
/quote]

I agree with all your conclusions except in:

If entities are not souls, why can they be SOUL drunk?

IIRC, Rifts WB29:Madhaven states that Madhaven entities are the lost souls of the many dead people at NY.

[mobuttu]

The entities in madhaver are the exception not the rule. Palladium in many of its books stress the facts that entities are not the souls of dead people and are their own "species" or adopt the psychic signature of dead people to appear as them.

OK. That's good to know.

[Tinker Dragoon]

This message has been moved to the GM's Forum, where the topic is more applicable and appropriate. If you have a problem with how this post was handled please direct all inquires to deific.nmi@gmail.com, including the url to the post in question.

[The Beast]

Odd Question: If I walked into a blood bank with a soul drinker and exposed the blood to the soul drinker, would it work?

[Aramel]

but if you kill the person that is possessed then the entity is released.. so i would say all you would do is kill the host, not remove the entity.