How does the CS survive?

[Arnie100]

Or been shot at by them!!! I agree with Colt47! Peace Through Superior Firepower!

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Any AI wouldn't care about the CS until the CS started messing with their territory, hell even the lord of atlantis might secretly help the CS removed the alien threat from atlantis if he could make some big time money from it, then retake it back making even more money off of it.

In the grand scale of things going on in the megaverse, the CS is very small, a small little human kingdom on some planet.

[Rallan]

However, is the CS in a real crisis?

Err... Did Chi-Town signed a non-aggression pact with the
Xicitix or Lord Splynn, or do the Prosek's even know about
that Megaversal pact that prevents the powers of Atlantis
to conquer the planet (or in a really twisted scenario, it
forces Lord Splynn to actually help the CS?)
No.

But they know, that there are at least two major threats
visible on the horizont, probably zillions of Mechanoids
maybe just opening a giant rift to swarm in, and if the
NGR falls, the CS is next.
Vampires too (the CS also might not be aware, that
there are several, warring factions, but if they know,
can they lay back, saying there will be no winner
of that war for ages ?)...

If not within a decade, than in a century.

So, do we feel lucky (dead) boys? Well, do we?

Adios
KLM

That's great KLM. Tell me, when exactly did every single non-human in North America join the Xiticix or the Splugorth?

[Rallan]

D-Bees are quite explicitly established as intelligent, sentient, thinking beings with souls, and some of them are mankind's moral and intellectual superiors. In short, they're people, and there's no possible way of arguing around that fact. Your argument basically boils down to "Hey it's okay to kill animals just for the heck of it, so why not people too?".

Actually, I believe dolphins are concidered intellectual creatures (via rifts). Beyond that, the fact you have creatures that are humans intellectual and physical superior makes them a threat in and of themselves.

So first its okay to kill other people because its okay to kill animals. Then its okay to kill other people if they're foreigners. Now it's okay to kill other people because they're better than you?

It's nice to see that even in an RPG setting, justifications for genocide are still ridiculous

All those you mentioned were not on the verge of collapsing. When pushed if mages can they will summon demons to aid them.

They've been well and truly "pushed" nonstop since forever, and they haven't stooped that low yet. Hell, the Cathedral over on Wormwood (who I'm surprised I forgot to mention the first time around) have been fighting a losing war for a thousand years without resorting to the dark arts. High-tech nations in Rifts, on the other hand, seem to have a "when the going gets tough, the tough get xenophobically genocidal" philosophy whenever they're faced with a challenge.

So yeah, what was that about magic societies being morally inferior in Rifts?

My fault. I thought you had to be a stone magic user to use pyrimids, not make them. They made them cause it was easier for them. Regardless, it's still safer to try to create a technological way to make ley lines and nexus points safe than using magic.

No it's not. There is no reliable technological safeguard against Rift activity (the closest you can get is having a lot of dudes with guns hanging around to shoot anything bad that comes out), but thanks to pyramids there is a reliable magical safeguard.

[Colt47]

No no no, you got it all wrong. I don't kill them because they are better then me, I kill them because they are looking at me funny and trying to suck my brain out.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Actually, Tolkeen resorted to summoning demons in their war to fight the CS. However, that is the only time I've read about mages resorting to that sort of extreme measure on a national basis when they were supposedly "good".
Stone pyramids can be used to control rifts activity, but only as far as their control can reach. Atlantians used stone pyramids for transport and rift control long before the coming of the apocalypse.
And the CS is supposed to be pretty much everything wrong with human kind put together. They're a nation of xenophobic, genocidal people led by a person trying to make an empire stretching across North America. Also, the vast majority of people in the CS are generally stupid... they are uneducated, illiterate, and taught to be xenophobic of anything supernatural or alien, where "alien" even includes foreign human made products (except for NGR and Triax). Heck, they've even been known to murder school children in some games.

Look, you're just going to hate the CS... Kevin Sembieda made them that way. I've yet to find a person who actually likes the current CS. They are practically post apocalyptic neo-nazis.

i do, All the CS , Prosek forever

[dark brandon]

So first its okay to kill other people because its okay to kill animals. Then its okay to kill other people if they're foreigners.

Dbees are not people.

Now it's okay to kill other people because they're better than you?

Not people, but creatures. The fact they have sentience isn't important.

It's nice to see that even in an RPG setting, justifications for genocide are still ridiculous

And what makes it so wrong? Where in some morally ambiguous book are we told that we have to like and love creatures from other worlds? Just because there's one little tape-worm in your intestines who isn't really doing anything doesn't mean they belong there or we want them there. Intellegent or not it's our bodies we choose to remove them. As such earth is humans, and we have every right to remove them from a world they do not belong.

They've been well and truly "pushed" nonstop since forever, and they haven't stooped that low yet. Hell, the Cathedral over on Wormwood (who I'm surprised I forgot to mention the first time around) have been fighting a losing war for a thousand years without resorting to the dark arts. High-tech nations in Rifts, on the other hand, seem to have a "when the going gets tough, the tough get xenophobically genocidal" philosophy whenever they're faced with a challenge.

wormwood isn't rifts earth. Big difference.

So yeah, what was that about magic societies being morally inferior in Rifts?

Of the magical societies we've seen on rifts earth that have been at war, tolkeen and FoM, both have resorted to demons. We'll see about lazlo. Maybe they won't...but that has yet to be seen.

No it's not. There is no reliable technological safeguard against Rift activity (the closest you can get is having a lot of dudes with guns hanging around to shoot anything bad that comes out), but thanks to pyramids there is a reliable magical safeguard.

The problem is you're relying on magic to control it. CS in the future may find a way to control the magics, until then, having guns and missles aimed at a rift is better than trusting a mage. Power corrupts.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

you know what , i feel sorry the d-bees , that most of them are stuck here , but hey they are in Coalition Lands, that is their fault not mine, if you have a pest problem, you dont try to live with them, you get rid of them.

[Colt47]

Yeah, you are right, we should try to get rid of the CS.

[dark brandon]

Yeah, you are right, we should try to get rid of the CS.

Yeah...that's gonna happen.

Earth for humans.

[Jack Daniels]

The entity waits for its chance and possesses one of a pair that are refilling waterskins....

A patrol would NEVER refill their supplies anywhere but on a friendly base. This is something that's drilled to us in BT, and why special forces are taught to live off the land.

Doesn't living off the land sometimes involve refilling your waterskins? Or are you saying that patrols carry all the water they'll need for their whole patrol with them?
Seems like that would become a problem for LRRPs, unless they always stay within a few hours march of a friendly base. . . Maybe they use bags of holding to store the extra water they'd need?

[dark brandon]

The entity waits for its chance and possesses one of a pair that are refilling waterskins....

A patrol would NEVER refill their supplies anywhere but on a friendly base. This is something that's drilled to us in BT, and why special forces are taught to live off the land.

Doesn't living off the land sometimes involve refilling your waterskins? Or are you saying that patrols carry all the water they'll need for their whole patrol with them?
Seems like that would become a problem for LRRPs, unless they always stay within a few hours march of a friendly base. . . Maybe they use bags of holding to store the extra water they'd need?

Depends. Most games I play, CS has transport for most of the team, specifically those who are patrolling areas. Soldiers may hoof it from time to time, but when they are done patrolling, there's probably some sort of transport that will take them to base in a matter of minutes, even if they are miles out. In combat situations, it will be different of course.

[Jack Daniels]

They want to destroy all non-terrestrial life on the planet and execute every practitioner of magic in the world, all in the name of human supremacy. Where's the ambiguity in that sort of evil?

As a means for better survival of the human race. Some believe making friends is the best way. I happen to think otherwise. In a world like rifts, it's impossible to believe that any creature who has MDC skin can think humans as anything more than just a toy. Not all creatures have MDC skin, but that doesn't mean other creatures who aren't human don't also fight over the same land, food and resources.

Change a few words here and there and presto. . .

They want to destroy all Jews living in Germany and execute every gypsy in Europe, all in the name of Aryan supremacy. Where's the ambiguity in that sort of evil?

As a means for better survival of the Aryan race. Some believe making friends is the best way. I happen to think otherwise. In a country like Germany, it's impossible to believe that any creature who lives as a parasite views good Germans as anything more than just puppets. Not all Jews are bank owners, but that doesn't mean other Jews who aren't bankers don't also want to control the same land, food and resources.

I'm not one for black and white morality, but genocide is an evil act. You are wrong brandon. The CS is evil.

Jews never tried to eat people, Jews can be proven to be human, can mate with human are human.

They were said to eat people in secret rights, they were "proven" to be less than truly human, they could mate with other humans, but their children, and grandchildren, and great grandchildren were always Jews and thus not really human, regardless of whom any of them mated with.

This is unmistakable line of humanity, as a human cannot breed with an elf or dragon.

But humans can mate with Atlanteans, Amazons, Sea Titans, and Ogres. Where do you draw the line? How do you determine who dies?

Their tactics are similar, but the circumstances in which they came to use and use are completely different.

The Nazi's felt that Jews and gypsies and all the rest were threats to the survival of their Aryan race, were the cause of Germany's defeat in WWI, threatened the very existence of Germany. That's pretty much where the CS is coming from.

Not all creatures have MDC skin, but that doesn't mean other creatures who aren't human don't also fight over the same land, food and resources.

Read up on Cactus People. They don't compete for food at all. They don't really compete for resources. They don't really compete for land. They are D-Bees and so get killed just like Brodkil. And you know what? Some people can rationalize it. . .

[Rallan]

.

Look, you're just going to hate the CS... Kevin Sembieda made them that way. I've yet to find a person who actually likes the current CS. They are practically post apocalyptic neo-nazis.

Oodles of people (including me) like the CS because it oozes style. Some people (including folks on this thread) get a bit carried away in their fanboyism and start coming up with ridiculous excuses for how the CS aren't really baddies.

[Rallan]

So first its okay to kill other people because its okay to kill animals. Then its okay to kill other people if they're foreigners.

Dbees are not people.

Now it's okay to kill other people because they're better than you?

Not people, but creatures. The fact they have sentience isn't important.

No, they're people. The books are pretty damn unambiguous on this.

And what makes it so wrong? Where in some morally ambiguous book are we told that we have to like and love creatures from other worlds?

There's no "ambiguity" about it. Intelligent D-bees, especially the ones that are optional player characters, are people. Quite a lot of them are even nice people. Ignoring canon with a big ol' "oh they're not really people and I don't care what anyone says" makes about as much sense as the South's old three-fifths-of-a-man justification for enslaving blacks. You're pulling stuff out of your ass so that you can pretend one of your favourite groups in the game isn't an evil empire.

wormwood isn't rifts earth. Big difference.

So people who aren't human only stop being people when they come to Earth? Genocide is only justifiable if you do it in the right postal code?

No it's not. There is no reliable technological safeguard against Rift activity (the closest you can get is having a lot of dudes with guns hanging around to shoot anything bad that comes out), but thanks to pyramids there is a reliable magical safeguard.

The problem is you're relying on magic to control it. CS in the future may find a way to control the magics, until then, having guns and missles aimed at a rift is better than trusting a mage. Power corrupts.

How is magic a problem if it works? You seem to be veering off at a tangent from canon and going with a "magic is a bad force which corrupts people" them that is not present in the books (because this is Rifts we're playing here, not World of Darkness). The corrupting power of magic is what the CS believes, not what's actually true. You cannot defend the beliefs of the Coalition by citing the beliefs of the Coalition.

[Rallan]

Yeah, you are right, we should try to get rid of the CS.

Yeah...that's gonna happen.

Earth for humans.

Lebensraum!

[KLM]

Rallan, citing the books in the CS would make your character
quite short lived.



Not to mention, that most in of the "ingame" info is written
by Erin Tarn, who is frankly of questionable objectivity.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

.

Look, you're just going to hate the CS... Kevin Sembieda made them that way. I've yet to find a person who actually likes the current CS. They are practically post apocalyptic neo-nazis.

Oodles of people (including me) like the CS because it oozes style. Some people (including folks on this thread) get a bit carried away in their fanboyism and start coming up with ridiculous excuses for how the CS aren't really baddies.

Actually, it does not take too much to prove that neither the CS is
totally black, nor any other power on the continent (or even in the
Megaverse) is totally white.

And then one has to choose which dirty things he can take from
the goverment, and what he cannot. The fact, that the CS is for
humans weights a lot.

Judging the CS as nazis is a dangerous comparison, because
for every Hitler, a "Bomber" Harris, a Joe Stalin and maybe
a WWI (with those "peace" treaties) can be found.
But give a few hundred years, and maybe "Adolf" will be seen
akin to Alexander the Great, Hannibal and Napoleon...

Adios
KLM

[Rallan]

So is Lazlo evil too then, didn't they decide the only way to fight the Xixitic was to kill all of them?

Man rifts earth is just full of evil, the only good guys seem to be those who just let themselves be killed.

We know from canon that they're a rapacious, merciless species who see all other beings as either harmless (and therefore good eatin') or a threat (and therefore to be exterminated so they can be eaten in safety). You can't reason with them, you can't buy them off, and you can't make them change their ways with a show of force. As long as a single hive is left, the Xiticix will put all their effort into feeding, growing, expanding the hive, and making new hives to try and spread out across the whole world.

So ah, what exactly was the point you were making by comparing a kill or be killed situation to the Coalition's "shoot 'em if they look funny" approach?

[Rallan]

Rallan, citing the books in the CS would make your character
quite short lived.



Not to mention, that most in of the "ingame" info is written
by Erin Tarn, who is frankly of questionable objectivity.

Adios
KLM

Bah, I haven't gone anywhere near the Erin Tarn stuff. I'm sticking with what we know to be objectively true about Rifts Earth.

Plus even if I did start using the Erin Tarn material it wouldn't make much difference. Unlike White Wolf, Palladium doesn't seem to be a big fan of the "unreliable narrator" angle in their flavour fic, and about the only time a character like Erin gives information that might not be factual, we're given a heads up about it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

personally I find the idea of d-bee friendly human nation quite laughable where in rifts it is the normal Rifts earth the mindset towards the D-bees would be that of the CS and not we can all live in peace, we are talking about humans , hell we can't get along half the time as it is, That is what made Lazlo and Tolkeen places of hope but now they just another town , nothing truely special about them in a world gone mad.

Last time I checked the human race has done thing to each other over food,land and women and wiped out different ethic tribes because of it.

[Rallan]

personally I find the idea of d-bee friendly human nation quite laughable where in rifts it is the normal Rifts earth the mindset towards the D-bees would be that of the CS and not we can all live in peace, we are talking about humans , hell we can't get along half the time as it is, That is what made Lazlo and Tolkeen places of hope but now they just another town , nothing truely special about them in a world gone mad.

Last time I checked the human race has done thing to each other over food,land and women and wiped out different ethic tribes because of it.

Humans and D-bees have been living on the same planet for three or four centuries though. While it's impossible to imagine a Rifts Earth where everyone except the really evil demonic critters gets along in peace and harmony, it's also impossible to imagine a Rifts Earth where humans living peacefully alongside other races is a rarity. If there's a D-bee village down the valley from your own village and they never bother you, sooner or later there's gonna be a certain amount of contact and mingling. If the only reason humans in a region survived a horde of man-eating space bats is because D-bee communities in the area worked just as hard as the humans to fight those space bats off, there's gonna be a certain amount of respect. If your town's a center of commerce in the region and D-bees want to trade stuff that's of some value, some humans are going to trade with them. And if a D-bee town has the nearest big market, some humans are going to go there.

And of course the "champions of light" theme helps, since there are humans and beings of other species who roam around using their powers to help the opressed wherever they roam, and there's nothing like having your bacon saved by a green-skinned wizard who speaks through his ears to make you think that maybe all these damn aliens aren't so bad after all.

[dark brandon]

No, they're people. The books are pretty damn unambiguous on this.

The books are pretty clear that they are not humans and they cannot mate with humans. Therefor all they are is competion.

There's no "ambiguity" about it. Intelligent D-bees, especially the ones that are optional player characters, are people. Quite a lot of them are even nice people. Ignoring canon with a big ol' "oh they're not really people and I don't care what anyone says" makes about as much sense as the South's old three-fifths-of-a-man justification for enslaving blacks. You're pulling stuff out of your ass so that you can pretend one of your favourite groups in the game isn't an evil empire.

The big difference is that they cannot mate with humans. There is no offspring.

So people who aren't human only stop being people when they come to Earth? Genocide is only justifiable if you do it in the right postal code?

It's not genocide completely. It's removal from territory. Anything not human on earth does not belong there. Compelte genocide we'd follow them to their origin.

How is magic a problem if it works? You seem to be veering off at a tangent from canon and going with a "magic is a bad force which corrupts people" them that is not present in the books (because this is Rifts we're playing here, not World of Darkness). The corrupting power of magic is what the CS believes, not what's actually true. You cannot defend the beliefs of the Coalition by citing the beliefs of the Coalition.

Sure I can. Read the Ley line Rifter and why they develop pscyhosis.

[dark brandon]

I'm not one for black and white morality, but genocide is an evil act. You are wrong brandon. The CS is evil.

The problem is that the jews and Dbees are not the same. Just because you change a few words doesn't mean they are similar. I've never seen anything that said jews eat people in secret rights. Their "proven" inhumanity was obviously not scientifically accurate. YOU CANNOT MATE WITH anything that is non-human. You can't mate with a dog boy. Beyond this cannon tells you what is or isn't human.

But humans can mate with Atlanteans, Amazons, Sea Titans, and Ogres. Where do you draw the line? How do you determine who dies?

I never thought humans could mate with atlanteans. As for amazons and sea titans they are supernatural creatures, easily determined by dog boys.

Ogres are probably the closes argument you have, but being they are generally violent even toward humans, they'd be concidered a lesser human, a step back in evolution.

How do you determine who lives? A) Is he/she a human/can this creature mate with a human and make a human? B) Are they supernatural?

The Nazi's felt that Jews and gypsies and all the rest were threats to the survival of their Aryan race, were the cause of Germany's defeat in WWI, threatened the very existence of Germany. That's pretty much where the CS is coming from.

Once again, you're not getting that jews and Dbees are different. There are many many differences. Just as you are able to find similarities, I bet if you looked you could find differences.

Read up on Cactus People. They don't compete for food at all. They don't really compete for resources. They don't really compete for land. They are D-Bees and so get killed just like Brodkil. And you know what? Some people can rationalize it. . .

Of course. Anything we do to non humans is considered charitable, nothing we NEED to do, but we do so. It's like a cat, we put human traits into something that isn't human...but in the end that doesn't mean they are human, and that is what we base all our morality on. What we do and how we treat other humans.

[KLM]

One more bit to add some shade of grey:

When Iron Heart joined the CS it actually had a civilising effect
on their treatment of the alien and magic. Also, for all the CS
human supremacy the Burbs have around a 20% D-Bee populace.

Probably, because the road to other communities (or even the
prospect of living those communities) is not tempting enough
for them to leave the Burbs.
Even extermination does not mean an automatic, one-way ticket
to a death camp - more like exile.

Strictly by the books (RUE and WB11 respectively).

-------------
On the other hand, by the books a D-Bee race (maybe the
Tokanii?) D-shifted from their dying homeland, and
decided to live here - even after a "warm welcome" from
the CS. Verrrrry smart...

Adios
KLM

[Library Ogre]

The problem is that the jews and Dbees are not the same. Just because you change a few words doesn't mean they are similar. I've never seen anything that said jews eat people in secret rights. Their "proven" inhumanity was obviously not scientifically accurate. YOU CANNOT MATE WITH anything that is non-human. You can't mate with a dog boy. Beyond this cannon tells you what is or isn't human.

The phrase you're looking for in searching for rumors of Jewish cannibalistic rites is "Blood Libel". It was actually illegal for Jews to enter England for years (decades, possibly even centuries) because of this.

However, I think the Coalition is correct at the current point in time. The world is very unsettled, and the tendency of Rifts to disgorge invasion fleets or alien intelligences bent on world domination makes it difficult for the world to settle down. Their reaction is paranoid defensiveness... reasonable, given the circumstances. They've retreated to technology, an understandable, controllable, force with a proven track record, and rejected magic, which appeared suddenly and violently, and has attacked them on more than one occasion. They've also rejected the alien, because that came along with the magic.

Lazlo's way is probably correct for the long term, but it's almost impossible to manage at the current time. Threats like vampires, the Xiticix, and even the Splugorth, to an extent (who could become, at least, acceptable neighbors) mean that a pacifistic, or even mild approach are going to be insufficient... there needs to be a strong military response to maintain civilization on Earth, much less human civilization.

The place where I think you'll see the real progress is Europe. The NGR doesn't actively persecute D-bees, just excludes them from their nation. They have a strong military response against the enemies of civilization and, as a side effect, wind up protecting those D-bees (not as efficiently as if they were actually part of the nation, but peripherally). The NGR's stance on magic isn't clear, but they stand a better chance of accepting it than the CS, who is virulently anti-magic.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Humans and D-bees have been living on the same planet for three or four centuries though. While it's impossible to imagine a Rifts Earth where everyone except the really evil demonic critters gets along in peace and harmony, it's also impossible to imagine a Rifts Earth where humans living peacefully alongside other races is a rarity. If there's a D-bee village down the valley from your own village and they never bother you, sooner or later there's gonna be a certain amount of contact and mingling. If the only reason humans in a region survived a horde of man-eating space bats is because D-bee communities in the area worked just as hard as the humans to fight those space bats off, there's gonna be a certain amount of respect. If your town's a center of commerce in the region and D-bees want to trade stuff that's of some value, some humans are going to trade with them. And if a D-bee town has the nearest big market, some humans are going to go there.

And of course the "champions of light" theme helps, since there are humans and beings of other species who roam around using their powers to help the opressed wherever they roam, and there's nothing like having your bacon saved by a green-skinned wizard who speaks through his ears to make you think that maybe all these damn aliens aren't so bad after all.

because humankind living in peace with anything is a joke at best , humans have to be the master of everything and what they can't master they kill

[Vrykolas2k]

So is Lazlo evil too then, didn't they decide the only way to fight the Xixitic was to kill all of them?

Man rifts earth is just full of evil, the only good guys seem to be those who just let themselves be killed.

We know from canon that they're a rapacious, merciless species who see all other beings as either harmless (and therefore good eatin') or a threat (and therefore to be exterminated so they can be eaten in safety). You can't reason with them, you can't buy them off, and you can't make them change their ways with a show of force. As long as a single hive is left, the Xiticix will put all their effort into feeding, growing, expanding the hive, and making new hives to try and spread out across the whole world.

So ah, what exactly was the point you were making by comparing a kill or be killed situation to the Coalition's "shoot 'em if they look funny" approach?

Ya the only people who can get over the xiticix are led by General Holmes... somehow. Of course as long as they were away from any sources of food or water I can tell you exactly where the "missing forces" went... right into everyone else's stewpot. Now how they got out of the hivelands as intact as they did, other than pure writer's fiat is anyone's guess...

[Rallan]

Thats sounds like every species.

Most other species - especially most other intelligent species - generally don't have a "let's enslave everyone else on the planet as livestock and annihilate anything that resists" approach to it though. There's a big difference between a bunch of interdimensional immigrants with bumpy foreheads and these guys.

[Rallan]

And of course the "champions of light" theme helps, since there are humans and beings of other species who roam around using their powers to help the opressed wherever they roam, and there's nothing like having your bacon saved by a green-skinned wizard who speaks through his ears to make you think that maybe all these damn aliens aren't so bad after all.

Except that is also countered by the "minions of darkness" theme. When another of those green-skinned wizards comes into town and transforms into a hideous monster and feeds on half your family you may know all those aliens aren't bad, but you sure are you really going to feel confident enough to keep trying to make that decision with each alien you encounter or would you just try to keep all aliens out of your town.

Yes but I'm not trying to argue that everyone on Rifts Earth is gonna love his brother. I'm just pointing out that Mech-Viper's view is pessimistic, and there's gonna be plenty of places (hell, there are already plenty of places in the canon setting) where humans and other intelligent life cooperate with each other, or at least coexist without too much friction. I mean let's face it, as per canon, human supremacist states that take it as far as the CS (or even the NGR, which is a tad more moderate in its xenophobia) look to be exceptions rather than the rule.

[Rallan]

Magic is a corrupting force. The Siege of Tolkeen showed that even "good" magic users, when backed into a corner, use some pretty black magic. At the end of the day, magic is about exerting ones will on others, and in Rifts Earth, on reality itself. At best, magic can be Selfish, but Evil is usually the best descriptor. I do not support the Coalition's views on race, but as far as magic use goes, they are dead on. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Rifts magic is pretty darn powerful.

That's great, but it's all personal opinion. Magic in Rifts isn't about exerting one's will on others (although there are a handful of spells that do that), it's about harnessing a form of energy in predictable ways. It's a tool, nothing more and nothing less. To say that magic has some sort of insidious corrupting influence is like arguing that technology is bad for the soul because sooner or later people will try and solve their problems with guns and nukes. It's crap. Hell, look at the CS. They can only carry out their genocidal policies because of high technology. Does this mean that tech is bad and wrong because some people have used it to do bad and wrong things?

And meanwhile, the fact that human nations with lots of magicians all over the world aren't summoning demons whenever they're in a tight spot seems to have evaded everyone's notice. Remember the Cathedral? Thousand-year-long war that they're losing, and they rely almost exclusively on magic. Care to argue that magic is a corrupting influence on their society? Or that magic is the cancer that's eating the Empire of Japan? Or that magic has warped Kingsdale or the two Lazlos? It's crap. More importantly, it's non-canon crap.

[Rallan]

No, they're people. The books are pretty damn unambiguous on this.

The books are pretty clear that they are not humans and they cannot mate with humans. Therefor all they are is competion.

Does this mean that homosexuals are competition too? They don't reproduce after all, so they're just consuming resources that could've been used to support humans who have babies.

The big difference is that they cannot mate with humans. There is no offspring.

And? They're still people. They can (unless they're supernatural badasses who are born evil) live alongside other races. They can cooperate, they can pool their resources, they can interact via trade and commerce and learning. Your entire argument comes down to the idea that all foreign life is a potential threat and needs to be removed. Congratulations, you're now officially rooting for the Mechanoids. What's it like making apologetics for the single most unambiguously evil high-tech power in the entire Rifts megaverse?

It's not genocide completely. It's removal from territory. Anything not human on earth does not belong there. Compelte genocide we'd follow them to their origin.

It's not genocide completely. It's removal from territory. Anything not American in America does not belong there. Complete genocide we'd wipe out their home countries

[Rallan]

Once again, you're not getting that jews and Dbees are different. There are many many differences. Just as you are able to find similarities, I bet if you looked you could find differences.

Yep. The main difference is that if something's got precisely the wrong number of arms, legs, eyes, or chromosomes, it's even easier to convince yourself that wiping them out is necessary and good

Seriously, your entire argument so far has come down to the following points.

1) If we can kill animals, then it's morally okay to kill people.

2) If people can't breed with us, then it's morally okay to kill them.

3) People who come from other places are a threat, and need to be killed.

4) I don't care about the facts, because if I say that some people aren't really people then I'm right, so there!

[Jack Daniels]

The problem is that the jews and Dbees are not the same. Just because you change a few words doesn't mean they are similar.

You missed my point. The fears behind the action and the arguments defending the action are the same. Ergo; comparing the CS actions to those of Nazi Germany is accurate.
We all accept (please god I hope) that genocide when practiced by the Nazi's was an evil act. If it is practiced by another group, for the same reasons and using the same arguments, it remains an evil act.

I've never seen anything that said jews eat people in secret rights. Their "proven" inhumanity was obviously not scientifically accurate. YOU CANNOT MATE WITH anything that is non-human. You can't mate with a dog boy. Beyond this cannon tells you what is or isn't human.

We know that Jews are human, it's obvious to us. Many people accepted the inaccurate science as fact however, some still do. As a result they were considered lesser people and it's that kind of idiocy that allows things like genocide to be perpetrated.

I never thought humans could mate with atlanteans.

I thought they could, but I can't find a definitive reference off hand. They are "Descendants of Human Atlanteans" (Atlantis pg 14), if that suggests anything to you. To me, it suggests they are human.

As for amazons and sea titans they are supernatural creatures, easily determined by dog boys.

So what? They can mate with humans, which until now I thought was your deciding factor as to what is acceptable to genocide.

Ogres are probably the closes argument you have, but being they are generally violent even toward humans, they'd be concidered a lesser human, a step back in evolution.

But still a human. Do they get killed because now you say the CS cares about genetic purity and advancement of the species? Or do they get killed because they look funny?
What about a genetically mutated child born from two perfectly normal human parents? Does it get killed too? If not what part of the argument allows it to live, but not the Ogre?

How do you determine who lives? A) Is he/she a human/can this creature mate with a human and make a human? B) Are they supernatural?

Now you say that anything that cannot mate with humans and is supernatural should be killed. What will be the next stage, all those who cannot mate with humans, are supernatural, or have red hair should be killed?
Again, how do you decide who dies? This gains a life of its own. "Those who are not like me don't deserve to live." Hear that a lot regarding politics, religion, eye color, side of the river born on, whatever.

The Nazi's felt that Jews and gypsies and all the rest were threats to the survival of their Aryan race, were the cause of Germany's defeat in WWI, threatened the very existence of Germany. That's pretty much where the CS is coming from.

Once again, you're not getting that jews and Dbees are different. There are many many differences. Just as you are able to find similarities, I bet if you looked you could find differences.

I'm smart enough to realize that Jews and D-Bees are not the same, but you miss my point once again. I'm not looking for similarities between Jews and D-Bees at all, I'm looking at the arguments and reasons for genociding them. That is where the similarities are and that is why what the CS is doing is just as evil as what Nazi Germany did.

Of course. Anything we do to non humans is considered charitable, nothing we NEED to do, but we do so. It's like a cat, we put human traits into something that isn't human...but in the end that doesn't mean they are human, and that is what we base all our morality on. What we do and how we treat other humans.

No. We do those things because they are beneficial to us in some way. We feed, shelter and protect cattle so that we can drink their milk, wear their skin and eat them. We groom dogs so they can hunt with us, guard us when we sleep, and keep our feet warm on cold nights. We breed cats so that they hunt mice trying to eat our food and remind us that we are not the most important things in the world. It's called symbiosis (although I'm not using the term scientifically correct, apologies) and it happens all the time between species that cannot interbreed.
Killing everything that doesn't look like us is not beneficial to us. There are many things out there in Rifts which could live in a productive symbiotic relationship with humanity, Cactus People being a most prominent example. Yet the CS will just off them because they have green skin. Not only evil, but beginning to sound kind of shortsighted and dumb.

[Jack Daniels]

It's not genocide completely. It's removal from territory. Anything not American in America does not belong there. Complete genocide we'd wipe out their home countries

That's otherwise known as ethnic cleansing and it doesn't deserve to have a smug little smiley attached to it. I've removed it for you.
Seriously this argument is weak even for trying to defend genocide as being a good thing. Take a look at Spirit West and you've just made a huge argument for the destruction of the CS entirely.
Or are you going to define "American" somehow creatively?

[Colt47]

Ugh, all this craziness about right and wrong and the CS. In actual gameplay, I don't give a damn who it is that I'm shooting at if they are shooting at me considering that every character I've ever had has never really wanted to die. Does this mean that my characters want to be involved in genocide?

Also I think everyone is ignoring the big fact here: The current CS is run by Emperor Prosek, who is using ignorance and fear of what is not human or technology to strengthen his position as a leader. So in the end the CS military does not justify their actions against D-Bees or magic practitioners, because they do not believe they are even committing genocide. They are repelling another invader in Coalition territory.

[Rallan]

It's not genocide completely. It's removal from territory. Anything not American in America does not belong there. Complete genocide we'd wipe out their home countries

That's otherwise known as ethnic cleansing and it doesn't deserve to have a smug little smiley attached to it. I've removed it for you.
Seriously this argument is weak even for trying to defend genocide as being a good thing. Take a look at Spirit West and you've just made a huge argument for the destruction of the CS entirely.
Or are you going to define "American" somehow creatively?

Um, that's my quote you're using there dude. Dark Brandon actually said

:
It's not genocide completely. It's removal from territory. Anything not human on earth does not belong there. Compelte genocide we'd follow them to their origin.

EDITED!: because I suck at tags

[Rallan]

Ugh, all this craziness about right and wrong and the CS. In actual gameplay, I don't give a damn who it is that I'm shooting at if they are shooting at me considering that every character I've ever had has never really wanted to die. Does this mean that my characters want to be involved in genocide?

Also I think everyone is ignoring the big fact here: The current CS is run by Emperor Prosek, who is using ignorance and fear of what is not human or technology to strengthen his position as a leader. So in the end the CS military does not justify their actions against D-Bees or magic practitioners, because they do not believe they are even committing genocide. They are repelling another invader in Coalition territory.

Hate to break it to you, but that's exactly what justifying is. They've got an entire culture and belief system built up around the idea that all transdimensional visitors are rapacious scum threatening mankind's very survival, and that culture has been established by the powers that be to justify the genocide of D-Bees and mages. Without the propaganda, an awful lot of people in the CS might start to feel that the government isn't justified in what it's doing, and that might lead to unrest.

[Jack Daniels]

Um, that's my quote you're using there dude. Dark Brandon actually said

:
It's not genocide completely. It's removal from territory. Anything not human on earth does not belong there. Compelte genocide we'd follow them to their origin.

Sorry, I pulled it out of a post you made in response to brandon. It was in a quote block, I assumed it was brandon's. I should have looked for the original but was in a hurry. My mistake

Looking at your post that I got the quote from I'm still confused. You have a quote block and then some regular text, and they say the same thing. So, maybe I was responding to you, or maybe to whoever you quoted, or maybe you quoted yourself so that you'd have someone worth you arguing with and I just got in the way?

Anyway, I have described this conversation to my partner and she can't believe I have to actually argue with people that genocide is a bad thing.

[KLM]

Anyway, I have described this conversation to my partner and she can't believe I have to actually argue with people that genocide is a bad thing.

Actually, noone said that extermination of the inhuman is not bad.

We just said, it is neccessary, at least from the CS standpoint
anyway.

Adios
KLM

[Jack Daniels]

Anyway, I have described this conversation to my partner and she can't believe I have to actually argue with people that genocide is a bad thing.

Actually, noone said that extermination of the inhuman is not bad.

We just said, it is neccessary, at least from the CS standpoint
anyway.

Adios
KLM

Sorry. People have argued that it is not an evil thing to do. Perhaps I should not have used the synonym "bad" when what I meant was "I have to actually argue that genocide is 'evil'".

[dark brandon]

Anyway, I have described this conversation to my partner and she can't believe I have to actually argue with people that genocide is a bad thing.

It's not genocide.

It's all going to be on how you describe it.

[dark brandon]

Does this mean that homosexuals are competition too? They don't reproduce after all, so they're just consuming resources that could've been used to support humans who have babies.

They can't? You might want to check you're sources on that. They are still human, they can still reproduced. Being gay doesn't make you baren or you're soldiers don't march.

And? They're still people. They can (unless they're supernatural badasses who are born evil) live alongside other races. They can cooperate, they can pool their resources, they can interact via trade and commerce and learning. Your entire argument comes down to the idea that all foreign life is a potential threat and needs to be removed. Congratulations, you're now officially rooting for the Mechanoids. What's it like making apologetics for the single most unambiguously evil high-tech power in the entire Rifts megaverse?

They arn't people. People is a term used for humans. My argument can be made for any race. Cactus people, gargoyals...ect...It's all encompasing, that is why it isn't wrong. It doesn't need to be used for humans specifically. Humans can use it though.

It's not genocide completely. It's removal from territory. Anything not American in America does not belong there. Complete genocide we'd wipe out their home countries

Too many times people arguing against the CS tack on "humanity" onto things that just aren't human. This is simply going to be (if anyone hasn't already noticed) a theological difference. You cannot convince me anything not-human is worth a human life. Just because something has sentience doesn't mean they have equal or same rights as a biological human.

[dark brandon]

You missed my point. The fears behind the action and the arguments defending the action are the same. Ergo; comparing the CS actions to those of Nazi Germany is accurate.
We all accept (please god I hope) that genocide when practiced by the Nazi's was an evil act. If it is practiced by another group, for the same reasons and using the same arguments, it remains an evil act.

No, we do not. If I use genocide to kill the common cold virus...or MRSA (using bacteria which is a life form) I don't concider it to be an evil act. The CS use actions similar to Nazi, BUT who they are doing it to makes all the difference. In a leadership view, there is nothing that is strickly evil about keeping someone ignorant or fearful, since it keeps them loyal and in a time of duress you don't want or need people second guessing you. I'm not saying it's right mind you, but it's not evil.

We know that Jews are human, it's obvious to us. Many people accepted the inaccurate science as fact however, some still do. As a result they were considered lesser people and it's that kind of idiocy that allows things like genocide to be perpetrated.

I can scientifically prove they are human. I can prove a tokanii isn't human. It's not a play on words. Just because the first time a madman used it doesn't mean it doesn't hold water when a different situation accrues.

I thought they could, but I can't find a definitive reference off hand. They are "Descendants of Human Atlanteans" (Atlantis pg 14), if that suggests anything to you. To me, it suggests they are human.

I usually assume they can't unless it states it specifically since in many cases they do tell you, such as with ogres and sea titans.

So what? They can mate with humans, which until now I thought was your deciding factor as to what is acceptable to genocide.

YOu may have a point about Sea titans and amazons. As such, CS really hasn't have much interaction with them, so it's hard to say. The deciding factor to live is based on more than just one thing (It'd be too simplistic if it was). Being supernatural may be a deal breaker because it deals with magic force.

But still a human. Do they get killed because now you say the CS cares about genetic purity and advancement of the species? Or do they get killed because they look funny?
What about a genetically mutated child born from two perfectly normal human parents? Does it get killed too? If not what part of the argument allows it to live, but not the Ogre?

The thing is you're trying to say they are alike, and they are not. Comparing ogres to a mutated child is different. It really would take too much effort that i'm willing to do to to explain the difference between a mutated child and ogre if you don't already know.

Now you say that anything that cannot mate with humans and is supernatural should be killed. What will be the next stage, all those who cannot mate with humans, are supernatural, or have red hair should be killed?
Again, how do you decide who dies? This gains a life of its own. "Those who are not like me don't deserve to live." Hear that a lot regarding politics, religion, eye color, side of the river born on, whatever.

You're using the slippery slope argument (which is a poor argument), and once again, if you cant see how you're wrong in using this, it would take too much effort on my part to explain. Maybe someone else will.

I'm smart enough to realize that Jews and D-Bees are not the same, but you miss my point once again. I'm not looking for similarities between Jews and D-Bees at all, I'm looking at the arguments and reasons for genociding them. That is where the similarities are and that is why what the CS is doing is just as evil as what Nazi Germany did.

And the arguments and reasons for them have to fit the situation. You cannot ignore the situation because that's a huge factor in it. I know if you look at just the base reasoning for it, yes, it seems evil. But if genocide is wrong...then are we wrong for trying to kill off bacteria and viruses that harm humans...completely wipe them off the face of the earth? No, of course not. Situation MUST be taken into account.

No. We do those things because they are beneficial to us in some way. We feed, shelter and protect cattle so that we can drink their milk, wear their skin and eat them. We groom dogs so they can hunt with us, guard us when we sleep, and keep our feet warm on cold nights. We breed cats so that they hunt mice trying to eat our food and remind us that we are not the most important things in the world. It's called symbiosis (although I'm not using the term scientifically correct, apologies) and it happens all the time between species that cannot interbreed.
Killing everything that doesn't look like us is not beneficial to us. There are many things out there in Rifts which could live in a productive symbiotic relationship with humanity, Cactus People being a most prominent example. Yet the CS will just off them because they have green skin. Not only evil, but beginning to sound kind of shortsighted and dumb.

No, CS doesn't kill them off because of green skin. It's because they are invaiders, by accident or by self they are someplace they don't belong and didn't asked to be here.

[Colt47]

The only time we ever mass killed CS soldiers was by accident. We got our hands on a Pre Rifts Nuclear missile and launched it as a last ditch effort to prevent these crazy retribution squad people from launching it. Unfortunately, we didn't realize it was a full blown multi warhead nuke that was made to strike multiple targets at the same time. We also didn't realize that it was pre programed to strike targets along the eastern seaboard. We took out the CSS City of Iron, CSS Isle D'Orleans, three Splugorth Sea Skimmers, two Horune Dream ships, and some splugorth trade center that was too close to one of the sea skimmers.

Too bad our GM for that game went on a hiatus and never came back.

[Crash187]

obviously, they are a lot smarter than you give them credit for. consider for a moment the fact that they have incorporated psi-stalkers and nega-psychics into their ranks. and of course theres dr. branford and lonestar. I don't have time to go into one of my trademark disertations right now but trust me the CS is way more on top of their game than you are giving them any credit for.

[Colt47]

obviously, they are a lot smarter than you give them credit for. consider for a moment the fact that they have incorporated psi-stalkers and nega-psychics into their ranks. and of course theres dr. branford and lonestar. I don't have time to go into one of my trademark disertations right now but trust me the CS is way more on top of their game than you are giving them any credit for.

Why do people keep going back to the fact that the CS has Psychics? It's like the answer to all of their player problems it seems. First off, Psi Battalion shouldn't even exist. Master level Psychics are just too rare and make up 1% of the human population. It's also completely stupid to assume that because the Coalition States is the largest human population center that they would be able to find enough master level psychics to put together a battalion, since most would be rogues or revolutionaries thanks to the many years of CS persecution before 86 P.A. Even my Game Master thinks the idea is just plain randomness. If the Coalition states did have a psychic battalion, most members would be major psychics and shouldn't even have the R.C.C.s available from Psyscape.