AR??

[goodhometownboy]

is it me or does AR seem confusing? well at least in the heroes setting? armor doesn't nothing because everyone has mass bounses? unless you have an are or 20 something.... how do you guys do AR... i can understand AR with old knights armor but what about robot armor? and full body armor? 2 shots over the ar and the player is dead?

[NMI]

I have bypassing AR work this way. I mentioned the following to Kevin and others at PB and they like it.

It is the NATURAL roll of the D20 that determines if the attacker penetrates/bypasses the AR of the defender. Bonuses to strike just help assure if you hit the target "area" or not.

Natural AR's (such as from various APS powers, attempted to make invulnerable Super Soldiers, etc...) -

• If the NATURAL roll to strike is below the AR (natural ar) then you hit the target but not hard enough to do damage.
• If the roll is higher then the AR you hit and have whatever effect the strike entails.

Artifical Armor (like body armor)

• If NATURAL D20 roll is below the AR of the armor, then the attack hits and does damage to the armor.
• if the NATURAL D20 roll is above the AR of the armor, then the attack penetrates the armor and does damage to the defender.

[Incriptus]

I don't think I particularly like that idea, seeing as how it means that shooting someone in such a way as to avoid the armor is now completely based on luck.

Oh and things like robots thats natural AR meaning you do no damage unless you break that number, anything under that number (over 5) does [no] (editted in the word no) damage to the SDC.

And I must have really suck at making characters "Crimson Fist" lvl 4 Physical Traing packs a whopping +6 to strike.

[JTwig]

Here is a copy of my reply from the GM board:

goodhometownboy wrote:
is it me or does AR seem confusing? well at least in the heroes setting? armor doesn't nothing because everyone has mass bounses? unless you have an are or 20 something.... how do you guys do AR... i can understand AR with old knights armor but what about robot armor? and full body armor? 2 shots over the ar and the player is dead?


Like Drewkitty said, there are different types of armor rating.

Natural/Robotic/Vehicle Armor Ratings: Any roll to strike below the AR does no damage.

Body Armor Armor Ratings: Any roll to strike below the AR does damage to the armor's S.D.C., while any roll to strike above the AR does damage directly to the person wearing the armor.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I personally like the system the way it is because you have better chances to hit if trained to strike better and armor built to do what it is supposed to: prevent damage. Rifts operates on an MDC system without AR, but only certain types of strikes will even damage an MDC object/armor. At least with AR and and SDC system, you have a chance of busting stuff with your fists.
On a side note, I always felt that punching solid steel (and mortar and brick) should give partial damage back on the attacker, though, unless trained to be able to strike without hurting yourself through martial arts, something like half damage. There should be a skill for injury prevention when striking designed for that purpose. Also, there has never been a realistic percentage chance of breaking one's sword when striking steel and brick either, or shock from weapon recoil/backlash, although I believe there are optional rules for such things in one of the books. If not, perhaps someone might take a shot at creating some.

[Incriptus]

I don't think I particularly like that idea, seeing as how it means that shooting someone in such a way as to avoid the armor is now completely based on luck.

Oh and things like robots thats natural AR meaning you do no damage unless you break that number, anything under that number (over 5) does damage to the SDC.

Um... what? Natural AR means you do no damage unless it's over the AR. Under it means it bounces off. Since there is no 'armor SDC' to work with, your example would mean that damage would be inflicted both above and below the AR, which defeats the purpose of it altogether.

Sorry I editted in the word no . . . *commits seppeku*

[Nemo235]

I have bypassing AR work this way. I mentioned the following to Kevin and others at PB and they like it.

It is the NATURAL roll of the D20 that determines if the attacker penetrates/bypasses the AR of the defender. Bonuses to strike just help assure if you hit the target "area" or not.

Natural AR's (such as from various APS powers, attempted to make invulnerable Super Soldiers, etc...) -

• If the NATURAL roll to strike is below the AR (natural ar) then you hit the target but not hard enough to do damage.
• If the roll is higher then the AR you hit and have whatever effect the strike entails.

Artifical Armor (like body armor)

• If NATURAL D20 roll is below the AR of the armor, then the attack hits and does damage to the armor.
• if the NATURAL D20 roll is above the AR of the armor, then the attack penetrates the armor and does damage to the defender.

Could you please describe this more?
What do you mean bonuses just help assure if you hit the target "area"?
I thought that's what the penalty for a called shot was for.

[NMI]

I have bypassing AR work this way. I mentioned the following to Kevin and others at PB and they like it.

It is the NATURAL roll of the D20 that determines if the attacker penetrates/bypasses the AR of the defender. Bonuses to strike just help assure if you hit the target "area" or not.

Natural AR's (such as from various APS powers, attempted to make invulnerable Super Soldiers, etc...) -

• If the NATURAL roll to strike is below the AR (natural ar) then you hit the target but not hard enough to do damage.
• If the roll is higher then the AR you hit and have whatever effect the strike entails.

Artifical Armor (like body armor)

• If NATURAL D20 roll is below the AR of the armor, then the attack hits and does damage to the armor.
• if the NATURAL D20 roll is above the AR of the armor, then the attack penetrates the armor and does damage to the defender.

I REALLY don't like this. NAR is already VERY powerful (I say this as the only PC in our current game who does not have NAR and autododge, everyone else has both). Anything that makes it even more powerful is getting to the bounds of ridiculousness and would pretty much require retuning every NAR power to suit the changes.

How is it making NAR any more powerful then what it is?

[goodhometownboy]

i think the rule for a natural roll against AR is ok but i agree that using a natural roll against an NR is way to strong

[goodhometownboy]

i don't see why you could up the AR in the heroes because the players and villians have such massive bounses anyways

[NMI]

Well, the above rule posted by me has worked well in my groups campaigns for the past 15+ years, so I will continue to run my games using this rule.

[Incriptus]

By your rules, I would have to have a natural roll of 17+.

Yes, but on a strike roll that successfully hits anything, you penetrate an AR of 13, minimum. Really makes you wonder why things like cloth armor exist, doesn't it?
[/quote]

Because a thug on the street with wp pistol has a +3 to hit aimed shot, and has no bonus when shooting wild. . . . oh and that kid with no weapon prof whos shooting wild has a -6 to strike. Bullet proof vests really weren't invented to stop super heroes after all.

I see your point, I really do. I even agree that it's not a perfect system. But my games tend to be low-powered.

If they are lower powered than a +5 or more to strike is an impressive feat



Anyways, I think the most reasonable thing would be to come up with a rule that allowed a defensive roll to effect if the AR was penetrated. ie. I didn't completely avoid the attack but sucessfully forced the attacker to hit an less vulnerable spot.

[Nemo235]

Well, the above rule posted by me has worked well in my groups campaigns for the past 15+ years, so I will continue to run my games using this rule.

It sounds interesting. But could you please explain a little more what you mean by 'Bonuses to strike just help assure if you hit the target "area" or not.'
Do you use some sort of hit location chart for humanoid and other body types?

[NMI]

Well, the above rule posted by me has worked well in my groups campaigns for the past 15+ years, so I will continue to run my games using this rule.

It sounds interesting. But could you please explain a little more what you mean by 'Bonuses to strike just help assure if you hit the target "area" or not.'
Do you use some sort of hit location chart for humanoid and other body types?

mainly I am refering to the "Called shot" rules.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Last time I checked, a called shot to the eyes went straight to HP. Eyes do not have SDC because there would be instantly severe trauma, blindness and bleeding. I woud make a called shot to the eyes a -6 to hit in my game, however.

[Sureshot]

I have always found the values for AR in HU to be odd to say the least. Theya are way too low for the superhero genre. An exoskeleton character has an AR of 15. Which is not that hard to beat. If I ever ran a HU I would add about 3-4 points to the AR of all types of armor in the game. Iron Man would be shot to pieces in this game.

A houserule in my games and of my GM in an upcoming game is that the number rolled has to be at least equal or higher before any bonuses before it penetrates the AR. Using the Expskeleton as an example a 15 would have to be rolled before bonuses to penetrate AR.

[Incriptus]

Let me tell you a story about a guy named the crimson fist, he's a physical training character he's 4th level and has a +6 to strike. This is a guy with an exceptional physical prowess and is skilled in combat. He fought a guy with Bio-Armor, meaning he had to break an AR of 16 to do any damage. So under my rules (and the rules as writen) Crimson fist could statistically only damage bad guy 50% of the time. Under the "natural roll" rule he would have only been able to damage the bad guy 20% of the time.

I'm fighting this guy, about one hit away from going unconsious by the time my luck finally changes and the dice finally start going my way, and he's able to man up until the rest of the team arrives to save the day.

Now Physical training is my definition of a "low powered" character, but that said they're pure combat and should have a decent strike bonus on them.

Heck in another campaign where I was GMing the bad guy had a Natural AR of 11, the Hero had 2 Major powers (so he's hardly a 'low powered' character) of course those 2 powers are Supernatural Strength & Forcefields, So guess what he had a +3 to strike. So since he had to roll over an 8 to hurt his guy a few unlucky rolls (aka 40% of the time) his Power Punches doing 3D6x10 + 40 were instead doing 0.

Or the times in Nightbane where the hero fires a full round burst into a hound just to find his dice roll to only match the AR and be completely watested.

My experience, which I guess is different from yours, has always found AR (expecially natural AR) to be cripplingly effective even when you get to add your bonuses in.

Plus we do know that there are characters out there who do have a PP of less than 16 right?

[Stone Gargoyle]

I still don't think the guy fighting with his bare hands would even scratch most robotic armors, knucklehead ninja or no.

[znbrtn]

Let me tell you a story about a guy named the crimson fist, he's a physical training character he's 4th level and has a +6 to strike. This is a guy with an exceptional physical prowess and is skilled in combat. He fought a guy with Bio-Armor, meaning he had to break an AR of 16 to do any damage. So under my rules (and the rules as writen) Crimson fist could statistically only damage bad guy 50% of the time. Under the "natural roll" rule he would have only been able to damage the bad guy 20% of the time.

You've stated figures like this before. No one is arguing their validity; it's just that some of us find 20% to be reasonable and justified, and some do not.

20% before active defenses such as parry and dodge is what I find unreasonable. Figure most combat oriented opponents will have respectable active defense and you're looking at half of your damaging strikes being defended against after you penetrate the NAR. So you're looking at 90% of your attacks being ineffective.

Different gaming styles for different gamers of course, if it works for you then use it! I prefer to roleplay instead of roll combat dice all night though.

this is where the roleplaying comes in. if a character has an AR of 17, how likely is he, really, to even attempt to parry or dodge? such a high level of resistance to damage would likely bring a sense of invulnerability with it as well.

[NMI]

play nice or I lock the thread!

[Incriptus]

Lots of action since I last posted but at this point in time my best advice is to come and play in my games with my players instead of yours

I've also seen Spiderman knock out a herald of galactus . . . just wanted to put that out there Anywho, HU isn't marvel or DC and it's power hierarchy does work a little differently.

And you are correct the AR system does need a little bit of tweaking, all i'm saying is that the 'natural roll', in my opinion, is not the way to do it. You want to bypass armor, pure luck is the way to go, doesn't sound very fun. You are essentially saying "Bob your combat monster has just as much chance at succeeding at this task as little jimmy over there" . . . I notice that everyone here has an IQ of 24 and a PHD so I'm going to remove the IQ and Education bonuses from your chemistry rolls just so it will mean something again.

Ok i'll admit that Combat Monsters are more common than Chemistry Monsters but it's really the same principle. Also slightly verging off topic there really isn't anything wrong with combat based characters. They have to give up quite a bit of there usefullness to get there . . . And honestly it seems like the goal is to punish the player for being combat.

Heck you know if it were me in such a game such a rule would actually make AR less relivant if anything, since if I knew i was destined to fail a majority of my strike rolls I would just eyeball the powers that didn't require them.

Oh well I think this topic has run its course, me & mine have always found AR to be very effective as written . . . I wonder if any of this has been usefull for the guy who started the thread or anyone else who's been reading it.

P.S. Just noticed that "Slab" the last character I posted only has a +4 to strike, sucks to be him.

[Stone Gargoyle]

This is just an observation, but usually the ones claiming that an AR syatem is too unfair are the ones who want their characters to be able to prance around decapitating everyone and everything and busting everything in sight. This mode of gameplay is not favored in a story driven game, and if your character has to work to get around the imposing men in power armor, so be it. If they face a heavily plated armadillo man, they are not just going to be able to do much against him, plain and simple, not matter if they have the supposedly "legal" +15 bonus derived from every ridiculously contrived physical skill imagineable. I had a player pull that junk on me early on, so as far as I am concerned, the more imposing the villain, the better. If it was just a hack and slash game, I would not be playing it.

[NMI]

Before anymore feelings are hurt, I have locked this thread.