Illiteracy in the Coalition

[bigbobsr6000]

Please tell me how anyone can be wrong about a fantasy world that is created solely from imagination? The posibilities are limitless. There is no right or wrong in creating anything you want however you want to do it. If you want to abide by the rules and only the rules that is the way you see it in your imagination and that's is correct. If any one else sees in their imagination in any other form not in the rules, they are correct also.

That's the beauty of RPG GM's are not and never will be wrong about their adventures whether they follow any or no rules of the book.

You are correct, I am correct. Why can't you see that? Rules do not matter, imagination does in RPG. I know you'll say I'm wrong again because it seems to me you cannot see beyond the rules in the book.

Can you even consider the possibility of a Coalition being good, teaching all to read and write? I can. But from your posts I do not think you can because its not in the rules.

As always best wishes to you, and Happy Thanksgiving ..............Big Bob....................

[Killer Cyborg]

Thanks for the FB, Killer Cyborg. Why wouldn't everyone have a computer read ID card? For the simple fact that people travel around. Someone comming from an area without computers with little or no technology would not have one. That would be 100's of thousands of people not under CS control or living in CS cities but may want to travel and see Chi-Town. That's why.

Enjoy...........Big Bob.........

Missed that one until now.

The thing is, in CS territory everybody checking "papers" would be the CS, so they'd have the tech needed.

[Killer Cyborg]

Double Post.
So nevermind.


Happy Thanksgiving, though.

[Killer Cyborg]

Please tell me how anyone can be wrong about a fantasy world that is created solely from imagination?

By having a limited imagination.
By saying something to the effect of, "There's no way that a high-tech futuristic society could exist without literacy being common".
Because there are dozens of ways that it could, if you put your imagination to work.

[bigbobsr6000]

Because there are dozens of ways that it could, if you put your imagination to work.

I am reminded of a scene in a movie where at the end a rich guy who has been in a wheel chair the entire movie with some big strong man pushing him around and lifting him in and out of the chair. He stands up and walks normally. All the characters gasped and one said "You can walk!!??" The rich guy says "Of course I can, I just choose not to."

I can see it your way and all the rules way, I just choose not too, because I can, so there ............................

Keep on gaming and having fun doing it. This has really been fun for me and I hope for you as well.

Bye now and best wishes.............Big Bob...................

[bigbobsr6000]

First, a reiteration; illiteracy is defined in various ways. To most teachers, being illiterate is reading below a 3rd grade level, this is where a large percentage of Americans are today. Functional illiteracy is usually pegged as reading below 6th grade, where 80 to 90 percent of Americans are now. We have the most high tech society in history!

Hi Daunlander, just curious, where do you think the general population under CS control/watch/protection fall?
1. Total illiteracy?
2. Illiterate as reading below a 3rd grade level?
3. Functional illiterate as reading below 6th grade level?

[Rallan]

So, in my oppinion that proves there are literate people in the CS cities criminal or not. Where there are a few there could me many, many more.

Yeah I don't think anyone's seriously disputing that particular point bigbob. After all, two of the classes in the main book (Rogue Scholar and Rogue Scientist) revolve around the idea of characters who've chosen to ignore Coalition edicts and dedicate their lives to uncovering the truth and educating the masses.

[Damian Magecraft]

First, a reiteration; illiteracy is defined in various ways. To most teachers, being illiterate is reading below a 3rd grade level, this is where a large percentage of Americans are today. Functional illiteracy is usually pegged as reading below 6th grade, where 80 to 90 percent of Americans are now. We have the most high tech society in history!

Hi Daunlander, just curious, where do you think the general population under CS control/watch/protection fall?
1. Total illiteracy?
2. Illiterate as reading below a 3rd grade level?
3. Functional illiterate as reading below 6th grade level?

ok this one gets me too...just whats reading at or below a 6th grade level exactly? i have trouble grasping this concept...i have always read stuff that according to teachers were beyond my grade level???? if i am able to read and comprehend it then its not beyond my grade level is it?

I think i can not understand illiteracy for the same reason i cannot understand what its like to not be able to hear or see or walk...i have no true frame of reference because i can see, hear, and walk. and have never been deprived of any of those ability.

so what exactly does functional illiteracy entail?

[Rallan]

Please tell me how anyone can be wrong about a fantasy world that is created solely from imagination?

By having a limited imagination.
By saying something to the effect of, "There's no way that a high-tech futuristic society could exist without literacy being common".
Because there are dozens of ways that it could, if you put your imagination to work.

Oh nobody's denying that the bulk of the CS population are illiterate. It's just that some of us think it's the teensiest bit ridiculously implausible to believe that the even the administrators and technicians are mostly illiterate.

[Killer Cyborg]

Please tell me how anyone can be wrong about a fantasy world that is created solely from imagination?

By having a limited imagination.
By saying something to the effect of, "There's no way that a high-tech futuristic society could exist without literacy being common".
Because there are dozens of ways that it could, if you put your imagination to work.

Oh nobody's denying that the bulk of the CS population are illiterate. It's just that some of us think it's the teensiest bit ridiculously implausible to believe that the even the administrators and technicians are mostly illiterate.

It's a high-tech world where most functions of literacy have been replaced by techno-can, and where computers can do most of the work for you.
Sure, for certain jobs you might need to be literate, but not a heck of a lot of them.

[Rallan]

Please tell me how anyone can be wrong about a fantasy world that is created solely from imagination?

By having a limited imagination.
By saying something to the effect of, "There's no way that a high-tech futuristic society could exist without literacy being common".
Because there are dozens of ways that it could, if you put your imagination to work.

Oh nobody's denying that the bulk of the CS population are illiterate. It's just that some of us think it's the teensiest bit ridiculously implausible to believe that the even the administrators and technicians are mostly illiterate.

It's a high-tech world where most functions of literacy have been replaced by techno-can, and where computers can do most of the work for you.
Sure, for certain jobs you might need to be literate, but not a heck of a lot of them.

That only works if you ignore how ridiculous it is. We're talking about a vast, sprawling bureaucracy that only answers to itself, that obsessively monitors the activities of the populace and meticulously plans propaganda to keep them pliant, that keeps records on everyone and everything, and that has to handle the logistics of running a nation of tens of millions of people in a supernatural warzone that stretches from Quebec to Texas.

We're also talking about one of the most sophisticated, high-tech infrastructures in the world. We're talking about guys doing research on AI and particle physics and advanced metalurgy and chemistry and xenobiology and the scientific study of ley lines. We're talking technicians who design and build androids and bionic components and computers and jet aircraft and nuclear power plants and plasma ejectors. We're talking surgeons who perform bionic conversions, engineers who test and repair robots, psychologists who evaluate the personality traits of new strains of mutant animal.

We are, in short, talking about very involved, technical work that requires qualified professionals to be done competently, who will need oodles of reference material on hand, who'll need to be able to lay out detailed instructions for their staff, who'll need extensive files on everything, who'll need rules and regulations and a mechanism for updating those rules and regs, who'll need to keep track of finances and resources and employees and payroll and experimental data and demographics.

I mean sure, I guess you could get a bunch of illiterates to do this, if you thought very very hard and came up with about a zillion quick fixes to get around the problem of their illiteracy and were happy to put up with something staggeringly inefficient. But why? Common sense says that trying to do that stuff with an illiterate population would be far too much like hard work. Sure, keep the common masses out in the 'burbs uneducated so you can limit the number of channels your enemy can use to spread propaganda, but even in lowbrow sci-fi, only a nation ruled by idiots would try and establish an illiterate technical and administrative sector.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's a high-tech world where most functions of literacy have been replaced by techno-can, and where computers can do most of the work for you.
Sure, for certain jobs you might need to be literate, but not a heck of a lot of them.

That only works if you ignore how ridiculous it is. We're talking about a vast, sprawling bureaucracy that only answers to itself, that obsessively monitors the activities of the populace and meticulously plans propaganda to keep them pliant, that keeps records on everyone and everything, and that has to handle the logistics of running a nation of tens of millions of people in a supernatural warzone that stretches from Quebec to Texas.

Yes, we are.
What about that says that most bureaucrats are going to be literate?

We're also talking about one of the most sophisticated, high-tech infrastructures in the world. We're talking about guys doing research on AI and particle physics and advanced metalurgy and chemistry and xenobiology and the scientific study of ley lines. We're talking technicians who design and build androids and bionic components and computers and jet aircraft and nuclear power plants and plasma ejectors. We're talking surgeons who perform bionic conversions, engineers who test and repair robots, psychologists who evaluate the personality traits of new strains of mutant animal.

Yes.
And, again, what about that says that the average mechanic or electrician is going to be literate?
The actual scientists are, but most techies aren't scientists.

We are, in short, talking about very involved, technical work that requires qualified professionals to be done competently, who will need oodles of reference material on hand, who'll need to be able to lay out detailed instructions for their staff, who'll need extensive files on everything, who'll need rules and regulations and a mechanism for updating those rules and regs, who'll need to keep track of finances and resources and employees and payroll and experimental data and demographics.

Sigh.
One by one:
Oodles of reference material- Why? And why would it have to be written?
Lay out detailed instructions for their staff- Yeah... that's called "talking".
Need extensive files on everything- Why's that? That's what they have computers for.
Rules and regulations and a mechanism for updating those rules and regs- Yup. No reason why it couldn't be done with audio/video recordings and computers.
Keep Track of finances and resources and employees and payroll and experimental data and demographics- That's what Techno-Can is there for.

I mean sure, I guess you could get a bunch of illiterates to do this, if you thought very very hard and came up with about a zillion quick fixes to get around the problem of their illiteracy and were happy to put up with something staggeringly inefficient.

Actually, I didn't have to think very hard about it at all.
I'd have a much harder time trying to come up with reasons why the average citizen would need to read.

But why? Common sense says that trying to do that stuff with an illiterate population would be far too much like hard work. Sure, keep the common masses out in the 'burbs uneducated so you can limit the number of channels your enemy can use to spread propaganda, but even in lowbrow sci-fi, only a nation ruled by idiots would try and establish an illiterate technical and administrative sector.

Again, technicians and administrators don't generally need literacy.
Not with the technology available in the CS.

[Rallan]

Technicians I can almost buy (I mean you don't need to understand the science behind it all to tune a car or fix a toaster, although it certainy helps if you ever plan on building a better car or toaster), but administrators? Management? Clerical staff? The legal system? Tax collectors? A nation the size of the Coalition States, with its high-tech infrastructure and its fetish for keeping absolute control over everything, is going to need a veritable army of clerks and bureaucrats and beancounters. Given that all the folks in the burbs and the lower levels are illiterate scum who can't be trusted with anything important, it wouldn't be surprising if the administrative side of government is a vast, all-encompassing entity that sucks up all the literate children of the elite who've got a good enough education to write memos do data entry and file everything in triplicate but who didn't have the aptitude to be anything better than generic white-collar workers.

[Killer Cyborg]

Technicians I can almost buy (I mean you don't need to understand the science behind it all to tune a car or fix a toaster, although it certainy helps if you ever plan on building a better car or toaster),
but administrators? Management? Clerical staff? The legal system? Tax collectors? A nation the size of the Coalition States, with its high-tech infrastructure and its fetish for keeping absolute control over everything, is going to need a veritable army of clerks and bureaucrats and beancounters. Given that all the folks in the burbs and the lower levels are illiterate scum who can't be trusted with anything important, it wouldn't be surprising if the administrative side of government is a vast, all-encompassing entity that sucks up all the literate children of the elite who've got a good enough education to write memos do data entry and file everything in triplicate but who didn't have the aptitude to be anything better than generic white-collar workers.

Check out what I found:
RUE, p. 305:
Under Literacy-
"Within the Coalition, only scientists, endineers, military leaders and the elite aristocracy are literate."

and under Literacy: Other-
"Usually, only the Rogue Scholar, Rogue Scientist and practitioners of magic can read even one language let alone two or more."

In any case, I actually DO see your point with Administrators, the thing is that we don't really know anything about how that stuff is actually DONE.
Taxes is easy; give everybody a serial number (like a SS#), get some people with math and accounting skills, and most of the work's already taken care of.
Come up with Tax Codes, and memorize them, which could be done if the codes are simple enough.
And they probably ARE simple; something like, "everybody gives 30%".
The CS is an Empire, not a democracy; they don't have to care nearly as much about trying to be fair or making people happy.
There were taxes long before literacy was common, and there could be taxes again.

As for the rest:
"Management? Clerical staff? The legal system?"

First, yes, SOME of this would probably be handled by the aristocracy.
Hell, I'll concede that it's possible that lawyers and supply clerks are the new versions of Knighthood.
But I don't quite believe it.
The simplest explanation is that computers do pretty much all the clerical work, and the management work that currently requires actual literacy.
And that Techno-Can fills in the gaps.

Lawyers.
Well, how much they need literacy would depend on how their legal system is set up and how many laws they have.
We get a basic idea of some of their laws, but not a lot more.
Heck, they might not even have lawyers as such; the cops might drag the suspects in, explain the case, and have a judge pass sentence.
Or maybe even the cops get to pick the sentence.
(Although being a Judge seems like something an Aristocrat would be into..)

Overall, we have to keep in mind that the CS is NOT any government or society that we have today.
They have different tech, and they have different attitudes, and a heck of a lot of the ways the CS functions are going to be different from the way we do things.

[Natasha]

In any case, I actually DO see your point with Administrators, the thing is that we don't really know anything about how that stuff is actually DONE.

I was thinking a while back. We really don't know the administrative infrastructure. I can imagine one that's not big on literacy, and I can imagine one that is. I can imagine one everywhere in between.

Given the theme of the CS, I should go with the one that isn't.

[bigbobsr6000]

Has anyone seen the movie "Idocracy"? Prime example of an illiterate society.

[Rallan]

Has anyone seen the movie "Idocracy"? Prime example of an illiterate society.

Oh yeah. Especially the way civilization almost destroys itself by replacing water with a sports drink. They make the average citizens of Farenheit 451 look like geniuses by comparison

[Rallan]

Technicians I can almost buy (I mean you don't need to understand the science behind it all to tune a car or fix a toaster, although it certainy helps if you ever plan on building a better car or toaster),
but administrators? Management? Clerical staff? The legal system? Tax collectors? A nation the size of the Coalition States, with its high-tech infrastructure and its fetish for keeping absolute control over everything, is going to need a veritable army of clerks and bureaucrats and beancounters. Given that all the folks in the burbs and the lower levels are illiterate scum who can't be trusted with anything important, it wouldn't be surprising if the administrative side of government is a vast, all-encompassing entity that sucks up all the literate children of the elite who've got a good enough education to write memos do data entry and file everything in triplicate but who didn't have the aptitude to be anything better than generic white-collar workers.

Check out what I found:
RUE, p. 305:
Under Literacy-
"Within the Coalition, only scientists, endineers, military leaders and the elite aristocracy are literate."

and under Literacy: Other-
"Usually, only the Rogue Scholar, Rogue Scientist and practitioners of magic can read even one language let alone two or more."

The books also say that the CS has more than a million SAMAS suits stockpiled, so I'm gonna have to concede defeat. Common sense has long since been established as having no place in Rifts

[Rallan]

Because Fantasy role playing games should be as real as possible

Now I know this has been hard for you to grasp in the past, but Suspension Of Disbelief is something that an RPG shouldn't just expect the audience to give it on a silver platter, it's something that the product has to earn. Obviously (especially in genres like sci-fi and fantasy) there's going to be a lot of stuff that just doesn't happen in the real world. But that doesn't mean that we the public have to accept any old crap. If it's a genre convention, fine. If it makes things hella cool, great. If it's internally consistent and generally seems to make sense, we'll buy all manner of bizarre ideas. But I don't see why we should accept ridiculous crap that flies in the face of common sense and was obviously whipped up on the fly without any consideration given to how it could possibly work just because "hey, it's a fantasy setting!".

Then again, I don't see why I'm bothering with this post considering the way you seem to think that the moment someone becomes a fan of something, they have to give it 11 out of 10 and never dare to admit that anything it does might be less than perfect.

[Killer Cyborg]

Because Fantasy role playing games should be as real as possible

Now I know this has been hard for you to grasp in the past, but Suspension Of Disbelief is something that an RPG shouldn't just expect the audience to give it on a silver platter, it's something that the product has to earn. Obviously (especially in genres like sci-fi and fantasy) there's going to be a lot of stuff that just doesn't happen in the real world. But that doesn't mean that we the public have to accept any old crap. If it's a genre convention, fine. If it makes things hella cool, great. If it's internally consistent and generally seems to make sense, we'll buy all manner of bizarre ideas. But I don't see why we should accept ridiculous crap that flies in the face of common sense and was obviously whipped up on the fly without any consideration given to how it could possibly work just because "hey, it's a fantasy setting!".

Then again, I don't see why I'm bothering with this post considering the way you seem to think that the moment someone becomes a fan of something, they have to give it 11 out of 10 and never dare to admit that anything it does might be less than perfect.

You're probably bothering because it needs to be said.
While I disagree with you about the plausibility of the CS being almost entirely illiterate, I agree with you about suspension of disbelief.

[sasha]

Understanding symbols may be a form of literacy. But that's not what the books are talking about. Literacy is being able to read books written in English/Spanish/Russian/Whatever_Language. It says so right in the skill description. Literacy (reading/writing) is the counterpart of Language (speaking) in Palladium games.

Graffiti is not necessarily the sign of a literate artist; it might be, but doesn't have to be. As has been pointed out, it really does not require much to know how to write things in a language. Especially popular things like Coca-Cola or C'est la vie or Que sera sera or CS Sucks. That doesn't mean I can read and write in English, French, or Spanish. This post means, however, that I can write in English.

Edit: Fixed some mistakes

[sasha]

Damn people being able to write in English I'm just guessing at the words.

Heh

[bigbobsr6000]

I am retired US Army (1972-1993). If there are any military out there please correct me if I am wrong about this.

The US Army manuals and most Regulations when I was in was written at 6th - 8th grade level. I don't think I am far off about this. Probably closer to 6th.

Thanks for your input, Big Bob......................

[bigbobsr6000]

One of my older sister's job in the 1960's was to read the US Army induction tests, contracts, etc. to the draftees/enlistees at the Induction Center that could not read/write. This was real world stuff at the time. So, enlisting in the CS as a grunt would probably be the same. More likely a big ol' seargant just says, "Make your mark here!!" or on a screen red circle means "NO", green means "YES". Then the seargant says, "Don't worry about the rest, we'll take care of it. You are a CS grunt....NOW MOVE OUT!!!"

Big Bob........................

[sasha]

Hello, my name is Gump, Forrest Gump.

[bigbobsr6000]

the US Military manuals used to be written at a 6th grade level. As of the mid to late 70s they were dropped. They are considered at today's 5th to 6th grade level, which is considered full literacy by most academics today.
When I went to Parris Island in 1990, they were considered about 4th grade with some technical jargon. Most people toady don't bother to read the forms Big Bob was referencing, they just listen to the Sgt and mark where he says. I can imagine the CS grunts doing exactly as Bob says with a "Sir! Yes, Sir!"

"THAT'S RIGHT, MAGGOT!!!! AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT!!!"
Note: That vien in middle of forehead sticking out again.

Aaawwww.....what wonderful memories..........

Thanks, for the comment, Big Bob...................

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm a reading teacher as well, so I consider reading below a 3rd grade level [see previous post] as illiterate, and below a 6th grade level as "functionally illiterate". Your view will probably differ.

With literacy at such a low level, and with a government actively discouraging literacy for anybody not in the elite, why would that level of literacy perpetuate?
IF people don't get much out of reading, and they can go to jail for it (indirect), why would they bother passing the knowledge on?
Why would they bother writing stuff for others to read?

[Killer Cyborg]

Nobody in government cares if you read at that low a level. In fact such a low level lulls the populace into thinking they know all that they need to know.
Panem et circenses ; that is "Bread and Circuses" [refresh your knowledge of Roman history if you don't get it.] "Drop and give me 40, recruit!"

I'm familiar with the Bread & Circuses bit of history, but I don't see that the CS would benefit from any form of literacy in that sort of endeavor.
That's what television and video games are for.

As to why anyone would bother, that is the driving force of existence for a Rogue Scholar/Scientist. We know the gov't prefers its victims lightly educated, and we do all in our power to thwart them. We agree we Jefferson's comment that a free society can only exist among a moral people, and that people can only be moral if they are taught to think on their own!

How many Rogue Scholars/Scientists do you think there are running around out there?

[bigbobsr6000]

In RUE page 304 under Communication Skills states:

"Language: Native Tongue. The character has a very good to excellent understanding of his native language. It is not, however, an absolute and total understanding, because there are always words, scientific terms, slang and fancy or outdated words and terms a character may not know. Thus, the necessity for dictionaries, thesauruses, grammar guides and computer spelling programs. Base skill: 88%+1% per level of experience. Note: An OCC skill bonus usually applies to “other” languages and communications skills, not the Native Tongue.”

'nuff said, Big Bob.......................

[Killer Cyborg]

In RUE page 304 under Communication Skills states:

"Language: Native Tongue. The character has a very good to excellent understanding of his native language. It is not, however, an absolute and total understanding, because there are always words, scientific terms, slang and fancy or outdated words and terms a character may not know. Thus, the necessity for dictionaries, thesauruses, grammar guides and computer spelling programs. Base skill: 88%+1% per level of experience. Note: An OCC skill bonus usually applies to “other” languages and communications skills, not the Native Tongue.”
'nuff said, Big Bob.......................

Well, reading over the context, I think what they're saying is basically:
"The reason why dictionaries (etc) exist in the real world is because nobody is actually 100% in their own native language."

Most likely, this is because of many people over the years complaining that their characters weren't 98% or 100% proficient in their native language automatically.

[bigbobsr6000]

In RUE page 304 under Communication Skills states:

"Language: Native Tongue. The character has a very good to excellent understanding of his native language. It is not, however, an absolute and total understanding, because there are always words, scientific terms, slang and fancy or outdated words and terms a character may not know. Thus, the necessity for dictionaries, thesauruses, grammar guides and computer spelling programs. Base skill: 88%+1% per level of experience. Note: An OCC skill bonus usually applies to “other” languages and communications skills, not the Native Tongue.”
'nuff said, Big Bob.......................

Well, reading over the context, I think what they're saying is basically:
"The reason why dictionaries (etc) exist in the real world is because nobody is actually 100% in their own native language."

Most likely, this is because of many people over the years complaining that their characters weren't 98% or 100% proficient in their native language automatically.

LIke Me......

Seriously, good comment.

[csbioborg]

come on the whole illerate thing is just impossile to pull off. In order to have a modern society you have to have a educated population. Are you going to teach electrians plumber enjineers nurses doctors etc by symbols or teach them to read at eighteen on top of there job anybody in a tech field knows you have to reference things. I don't know a tenth of the law I need but Ihave my law books right there. Fixing a tank in 20th centuary terms is done mostly by the operators following books stowed away controling information is one thing but there is no way the CS could function without litarcy

[Killer Cyborg]

come on the whole illerate thing is just impossile to pull off. In order to have a modern society you have to have a educated population. Are you going to teach electrians plumber enjineers nurses doctors etc by symbols or teach them to read at eighteen on top of there job anybody in a tech field knows you have to reference things. I don't know a tenth of the law I need but Ihave my law books right there. Fixing a tank in 20th centuary terms is done mostly by the operators following books stowed away controling information is one thing but there is no way the CS could function without litarcy

Everything you say here has been addressed (shot down).
Read the thread and try again.

[lather]

You don't have to be able to read to know who you're looking for and how much you're going to get for finding him.

[Rallan]

You don't have to be able to read to know who you're looking for and how much you're going to get for finding him.

Ah you kind of do. Without the ability to read, a Wanted poster just tells you that if you see a guy with this particular face, you can get money for helping the law get him. The wanted poster won't be able to tell you the guy's name or his aliases, what crimes he's commited, where he's from, how he works, or any other information about him except "this is the face of a bad man". In a society where literacy is just uncommon, wanted posters at least serve some purpose because folks who can read can tell everyone else what they say. In a society where literacy is illegal, wanted posters are gonna be completely useless unless you've already done a serious TV blitz about the baddy (in which case the posters aren't good for much except generating hype rather than disseminating useful info anyway).

[sasha]

Ah you kind of do. Without the ability to read, a Wanted poster just tells you that if you see a guy with this particular face, you can get money for helping the law get him. The wanted poster won't be able to tell you the guy's name or his aliases, what crimes he's commited, where he's from, how he works, or any other information about him except "this is the face of a bad man".

I can get a lot from a poster while being illiterate.

I do not have to be literate to read someone's name or aliases. I do not need to be literate to know what Crimes Against Humanity means. I do not need to be literate to know what New Chillicothe is, or where. I do not need to be literate to know what Armed and Dangerous means.

I can probably find someone to explain the rest, if it were really necessary to do so.

[lather]

Yea like KC said, it's all been covered already.

[devillin]

In RUE page 304 under Communication Skills states:

"Language: Native Tongue. The character has a very good to excellent understanding of his native language. It is not, however, an absolute and total understanding, because there are always words, scientific terms, slang and fancy or outdated words and terms a character may not know. Thus, the necessity for dictionaries, thesauruses, grammar guides and computer spelling programs. Base skill: 88%+1% per level of experience. Note: An OCC skill bonus usually applies to “other” languages and communications skills, not the Native Tongue.”

You know, reading this quote brought up a memory of something I'm pretty sure no one else brought up. Anyone else remember this little snippet from the description of the "new" armors in Coalition War Campaign?

Internal, voice actuated support computer and data base. This secondary computer provides mathematical computations and serves as a data base of basic military data, protocol, rules, laws and procedure. It also includes CS troop and vehicle recognition/identification based on verbal description or optical link (if it's not a friendly, it's probably an enemy). The computer can also "read" for the soldier (85% of all grunts are illiterate). This is done either by reading the letters composing the word (assuming the character knows the alphabet; 70% don't) or with an optic link via multi-optic eye patch or bionic eye linked to the computer.

[sasha]

That specifically hasn't been brought up, but that idea has.

[Rallan]

Ah you kind of do. Without the ability to read, a Wanted poster just tells you that if you see a guy with this particular face, you can get money for helping the law get him. The wanted poster won't be able to tell you the guy's name or his aliases, what crimes he's commited, where he's from, how he works, or any other information about him except "this is the face of a bad man".

I can get a lot from a poster while being illiterate.

I do not have to be literate to read someone's name or aliases. I do not need to be literate to know what Crimes Against Humanity means. I do not need to be literate to know what New Chillicothe is, or where. I do not need to be literate to know what Armed and Dangerous means.

I can probably find someone to explain the rest, if it were really necessary to do so.

Except that being able to read those words is a crime. CS society isn't just largely illiterate because of a lack of formal education, it's illiterate because being able to read is against the law, and teaching people to read is against the law. Anyone (except those who are authorised to be literate because they're in the upper classes or part of a highly skilled profession) who can actually make sense of some of the words on a Wanted poster is commiting an offense. Anyone who thinks "I can't read this but I know someone who can" and seeks out a literate person to read for them is probably commiting a whole stack of serious offenses.

Let's face it, it makes absolutely no sense for the CS to use wanted posters to try and get aid from its own citizens. It might smack 'em up in neutral towns and cities, or in the restricted areas inside the CS where foreigners are allowed to visit and do business, but that's about it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ah you kind of do. Without the ability to read, a Wanted poster just tells you that if you see a guy with this particular face, you can get money for helping the law get him. The wanted poster won't be able to tell you the guy's name or his aliases, what crimes he's commited, where he's from, how he works, or any other information about him except "this is the face of a bad man".

I can get a lot from a poster while being illiterate.

I do not have to be literate to read someone's name or aliases. I do not need to be literate to know what Crimes Against Humanity means. I do not need to be literate to know what New Chillicothe is, or where. I do not need to be literate to know what Armed and Dangerous means.

I can probably find someone to explain the rest, if it were really necessary to do so.

Except that being able to read those words is a crime. CS society isn't just largely illiterate because of a lack of formal education, it's illiterate because being able to read is against the law, and teaching people to read is against the law.

Uh... unless they changed things, it's not actually against the law to be literate.
It's just illegal to have certain books and reading material.
And if you run around teaching people to read, that falls under "Subversive Activities," and you can get imprisoned or killed for that.

But actual literacy?
Nope.
Not illegal.

[bigbobsr6000]

As I understand it, if you are literate, the CS knows you are and you are not one of the CS select allowed to be literate, you are looked on with great suspsion and distrust but not arrested. Probably be watched and go on some list in the files.

[Princedarkstorm]

Thank you,Bigbobsr6000 for the tip as always!

[dark brandon]

As I understand it, if you are literate, the CS knows you are and you are not one of the CS select allowed to be literate, you are looked on with great suspsion and distrust but not arrested. Probably be watched and go on some list in the files.

I think it's more like, if you can read, the CS doesn't really care. But if you teach people to read you become suspicious and distrusted and are put on files to be watched (to make sure you're not teaching something illegal).

[glitterboy2098]

As I understand it, if you are literate, the CS knows you are and you are not one of the CS select allowed to be literate, you are looked on with great suspsion and distrust but not arrested. Probably be watched and go on some list in the files.

I think it's more like, if you can read, the CS doesn't really care. But if you teach people to read you become suspicious and distrusted and are put on files to be watched (to make sure you're not teaching something illegal).

if you can read, you can teach others to read, so your going to be watched. the CS can't afford to wait for dissent to happen, they have to work to stop it before it happens.

though your only going to get close scrutiny if you are teaching others, and your only going ot get arrested if your caught teaching things the Cs considers subversive.

[Princedarkstorm]

I agree with Dark Brandon.

[dark brandon]

I agree with Dark Brandon.

Internet -hi5-

[Killer Cyborg]

come on the whole illerate thing is just impossile to pull off. In order to have a modern society you have to have a educated population. Are you going to teach electrians plumber enjineers nurses doctors etc by symbols or teach them to read at eighteen on top of there job anybody in a tech field knows you have to reference things. I don't know a tenth of the law I need but Ihave my law books right there. Fixing a tank in 20th centuary terms is done mostly by the operators following books stowed away controling information is one thing but there is no way the CS could function without litarcy

Everything you say here has been addressed (shot down).
Read the thread and try again.

Yes, everything has been shot down by the guy who thinks there are maybe five physicists in the entire Coalition.

Actually, most of it's been shot down by me.
I'm not sure who you're talking about that thinks there's maybe 5 physicists in the entire CS, but that ain't me.
Try again.

Frankly, the notion that the CS can maintain production of any high tech equipment of any kind is rather marginal. It takes enormous manpower to design and produce the low end crap we have today.

Ever notice that the CS uses pre-rifts designs?
As for producing it, since we don't know exactly what goes into production, there's no way of knowing how it's done.

I'm guessing a lot of robots.

It also takes a stable supply chain.

Which the CS has.

Voluntarily making your system inferior in the face of instability is utter stupidity, because your chances of success are really poor to start with.

I disagree with your assessment of the CS's chances.

[Lenwen]

I have to agree that the Coalition Production systems of how many how long an all that have yet to be shown to us an thus far they and they alone have the capability to mass produce what ever it is they themselves need .

And the books ( as in all of them on this subject) clearly state the CS does NOT want its citizens to know how to read .. ( thats one of the reasons FQ broke away ..FQ has a literacy rate of above 90%)

That is how it is .. meaning basically those in the Jobs that NEED to know how to read an write are granted the higher scholastic abilities of those . As well as the Higher end chain of command in the CS military an I would hazard a reasonable Geuss as to that YES the Coalition leaders of industry are themselves also able to read an write ..

But in the overal grand scheme of things the CS as an entity LOVES its citizens to be Illiterate.

-Lenwen

P.S.
Any hands on trade is not a good way to try to debate the literacy thing .. as with most hands on jobs your taught from the people who already know how to do it not by books .. And for the other jobs watching a vid-disk would not only cut the time involved to *learn* that skill but it would be alot easier on your budget as well which is easier to mass produce Books or Disc's ? ( I personally really dont know which one is hence the question)

[Princedarkstorm]

Besides out of the other Pro Human empires which would be better for the people in strenght?In culture?In protection? Some people just want to feel safe even if you lose freedoms or history(getting off the soapbox).