HtH:Wrestling

[Sentinel]

There has been a lot of discussion on the grappling arts lately, so I thought I'd share one of my solutions to this quandry here.
It goes hand-in-hand (as opposed to Hand-to-Hand) with my Luche Libre wrestling.

HtH:Wrestling.
Wrestling is considered the oldest Martial Art. This presentation of wrestling is more in line with the cinematic type of "sports-entertainment " seen on television, but also incorporates genuine techniques of actual combat grappling. Even Ken Shamrock was a pro-Wrestler for a brief period. It pays decently, and apparently better than the purses of fight sports.

Entrance Requirements:
Skill Cost: Three Physical Skills. Also do not select Wrestling as a skill in any other skill program.
Costume: Tights, singlet, shorts, leotard: many choices. Many wrestlers prefer simple Lycra shorts, and wrestling shoes/boots.
Stance: Crouched, arms relaxed, help open in preparation to grab or to shoot
Language: none.

Character Bonuses:
+2 to PS
+1 to PP
+2 to PE
+20 to SDC
add +2 to Save Vs. Pain


Combat Skills:
Attacks per Melee: 2
Escape Moves: Roll w/ P/F/I, Maintain Balance, Breakfall
Attack Moves: Leap, Somersault, Shoot (special! The attacker charges the opponent, and tackles him about the waist or legs. If successful, the opponent is knocked down, and held in the appropriate hold. The attacker is +2 to any roll to maintain this hold).
Basic Defensive Moves: Dodge, Parry, Automatic Parry
Advanced Defensive Moves: Circular parry, Disarm
Hand Attacks: Palm Strike, Knife Hand, Fingertip attack (usually aimed at the eyes, but can also be applied to the joints to facilitate escaping a hold).
Foot Attacks: Snap Kick, Drop Kick (fall/dodge/kick), Tripping/Leghooks
Leap Attacks: Jumping Body Block/Tackle (Special! The attacker leaps foward using body weight and momentum to bring the opponent to the ground. Opponent is -2 to parry, but only -1 to dodge. Damage is as per Body Block Tackle X2 as a jumping attack).
Special Attacks: Body Flip/Throw, Choke, Suplex (Special: this specialised form of a flip/throw which drives the opponent into the ground more forcefully. Damage is double that of a normal flip/throw. The suplex is difficult to perform, and the attacker makes a strike with no bonus to do so.), Elbow, Forearm, Knee strikes.
Holds/Locks: Arm, Leg, Neck, Body holds. Elbow, Wrist, Knee locks.
Weapons Katas: None (steel chairs for pros...)
Modifiers to attack: Pull Punch, Pin/Incapacitate, Critical Strike

Skills Included In Training:
Martial Arts Powers: Select one from body hardening(cannot select Chi Gung, Demon Wrestling, or Resist Chi).
Physical Skills: General Athletics, Body Building, Climbing.
Philosophical Training: None
Other Skills : Sports, First Aid. Performer (if a pro-wrestler).

Level Advancement Bonuses:
1) +2 to parry and dodge. +3 to roll w/P/F/I
2) +1 to strike with any hold or lock, +2 to Breakfall and Maintain Balance
3) +2 to strike w/ Suplex. Pin/Incapacitate on 18, 19, 20.
4) Add one attack per melee. +2 to initiative. +2 to Damage.
5) Add Automatic Flip/Throw. +3 to escape any holds. Can attempt to escape joint locks without taking damage.
6) Select one additional Body Hardening power.Add Automatic Dodge.
7) Critical strike or Flip/Throw on 18, 19, 20. +2 to Shoot.8) +1 to srtike with all holds/locks. +2 to Parry/Dodge.
9) Add one attack per melee.
10) +2 to Maintain Balance, +2 to Breakfall.
11) Add Automatic hold. Knockout/Stun on 18, 19, 20.
12) +3 to roll w/P/F/I, select one additional Body Hardening Power.
13) +1 to Strike. +2 to damage on all holds and locks.
14) On natural 20 triple damge from flip/throw or suplex.
15) Add one attack per melee.


The main weakness of grappling is the inability to deal well with multiple attackes, and weapon wielding attackers. Also a complete lack of an esoteric or mystical element.
Ground firmly in the reality of no-nonsense combat, the grappler is comfortable performing standing holds and locks or ground fighting. In the arena of professional wrestling, the combats are scripted, rehearsed, and cooreographed: in the absence of these elements, it is a dangerous style of fighting.

[Sentinel]

I originally had more initiative bonuses, but compared to the canon martial arts, I was a little munchkiny, so I cut back the final version some. I'll be listening to feedback and perhaps I'll kick initiative up a notch.
I figured since I most love cinematic flavor combat, I would pick the most cinematic style of grappling.
A friend of mine who also trains with a Gracie school once told me: "Jujutsu is hard to beat. Boring to watch, though."

[Sentinel]

Lethal Weapon 1 had some good stuff in that last fight.
But, the Jet Li stuff from LWIV brought down the house. (and not because Mel Gibson was older).

[Sentinel]

Seriously, one of the hardest things to keep in mind when I was writing up my home blends, was to keep them balanced against each other, and the existing canonical styles.
Whether or not you like or respect Tae Kwon Do, or WuShu T'Sung, you have to keep them in balance objectively.
Hopefully , I have done that.

[Slag]

Good Stuff. Well thought out and delivered. The skill and power selections were spot-on. Some old friends of mine would love it (they were WWF fanatics).

Might I suggest lowering the damage levels and instead adding more of the cinematic elements and advanced breakfall techniques like in the Chao Ta(?) movie MA in MC? And isn't this a bit much to get for "two physical skills", though? Seems more like a full-on MA than the equivalent of HTH Martial Arts.

All said, though, I think you've got the makings of a winner here.

[Sentinel]

Good Stuff. Well thought out and delivered. The skill and power selections were spot-on. Some old friends of mine would love it (they were WWF fanatics).

Might I suggest lowering the damage levels and instead adding more of the cinematic elements and advanced breakfall techniques like in the Chao Ta(?) movie MA in MC? And isn't this a bit much to get for "two physical skills", though? Seems more like a full-on MA than the equivalent of HTH Martial Arts.

All said, though, I think you've got the makings of a winner here.

I tried to make the style affordable for characters who may not have a large number of skills: thus I could have a wrestler who had little more than a High School education, without giving up too many skills out of a limited skill selection to begin with. Also by specifying 'Physical" skills, it forces players to decide how much they want to keep the (very over-used) boxing, acrobatics, or gymnastics.
I had looked over Chao Ta, but wanted to keep a sort of distinction from that style, so that each was fairly unique. I may have to take a more critical eye to my damages: I wanted to reflect the fact that if the combatants weren't careful, or were intentionally trying to "hook", then this stuff is definitely dangerous.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Good Stuff. Well thought out and delivered. The skill and power selections were spot-on. Some old friends of mine would love it (they were WWF fanatics).

Might I suggest lowering the damage levels and instead adding more of the cinematic elements and advanced breakfall techniques like in the Chao Ta(?) movie MA in MC? And isn't this a bit much to get for "two physical skills", though? Seems more like a full-on MA than the equivalent of HTH Martial Arts.

All said, though, I think you've got the makings of a winner here.

I tried to make the style affordable for characters who may not have a large number of skills: thus I could have a wrestler who had little more than a High School education, without giving up too many skills out of a limited skill selection to begin with. Also by specifying 'Physical" skills, it forces players to decide how much they want to keep the (very over-used) boxing, acrobatics, or gymnastics.
I had looked over Chao Ta, but wanted to keep a sort of distinction from that style, so that each was fairly unique. I may have to take a more critical eye to my damages: I wanted to reflect the fact that if the combatants weren't careful, or were intentionally trying to "hook", then this stuff is definitely dangerous.

and as powerful as arts that require 10+ years. too unbalancing and realistic.

the above isn't your average wrestler, it's a pro who would also have had to spend years and years training and practicing.

[Sentinel]

Well, none of the styles are for the "average" character, but for the "equivalents of Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris..."
True, I did use a Pro-wrestler as a template, but again it was intended to be scaled against existing styles, not underpowered aside from the disadvantages. A Chi master would have my wrestler for breakfast, as would a Jujutsu fighter, or Aikido master. I might be able to take a lone TKD fighter, or any other style wholly concentrating on physical aspects, but there are a lot of styles that start off with much better moves (Monkey style and Drunken style both start with automatic dodge for example).

[Nekira Sudacne]

Well, none of the styles are for the "average" character, but for the "equivalents of Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris..."
True, I did use a Pro-wrestler as a template, but again it was intended to be scaled against existing styles, not underpowered aside from the disadvantages. A Chi master would have my wrestler for breakfast, as would a Jujutsu fighter, or Aikido master. I might be able to take a lone TKD fighter, or any other style wholly concentrating on physical aspects, but there are a lot of styles that start off with much better moves (Monkey style and Drunken style both start with automatic dodge for example).

true, but two phisical skills is too little.

well, in the back of the N&SS book, it lets most HU characters take 1 full martial art form for 3 phisical skills. that seems appropiate for Wrestling too. several (at least 6) years of regular gym training.

and yes, chi masters eat almost anyone for breakfast. but there are a lot of arts that offer no skill in it.

[Sentinel]

I edited the style to increase the skill cost to three physical skills, and also decreased the number of martial arts powers from two to one.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I edited the style to increase the skill cost to three physical skills, and also decreased the number of martial arts powers from two to one.

good job

now this looks like a decent art to use if you want Wrestling to be more than +4d6 SDC pin on 18-20

[Sentinel]

Anyone who uses it, let me know how it plays for you.

[Sentinel]

My sole reason for not including Demon wrestling was to keep my home-brewed style from being over balanced. If you guys think it's not too much, by all means add it in.

[Sentinel]

I thought a good job all around and well done.

I think maybe more than one physical power however. I wrestled in high school and had friends who are coaches and wrestled at colliegate and pre-Olympian level. I challenge anyone to find a better conditioned athlete.

Arguably, Boxers could be equal or slightly better in the conditioning department. Then there are the various marathon events: anything where you have to perform several different athletic endeavors sequentially.
That's my nit-picking though good over all--I just think wrestling produces specimens as physically hard as any hard martial arts.

Nice work.

[Sentinel]

On the topic of "all things being equal" :
I had observed to grappling friends of mine, that if we fought on a hard surface (like wood) instead of a wrestling mat, I as a kicker/striker would have a more solid base to launch my attacks from, and they would be less inclined to dive for the hard and unforgiving surface.
Those mats are a little too unstable to provide good footing for a kicker, and thus the contest are a bit unfair.

[Sentinel]

You're right, I don't. But, on a hard surface, I can kick a lot faster, more accurately, and more confidently, and am much less likely to go down in the first place. And I'm sure you'll agree, you perform a technique much better when you're confident in it.
Even better: let me wear my Otomix shoes like the wrestler wears, so I don't have to worry about stubbed toes.

[Sentinel]

I don't think I live anywhere near the Dead City.
Alexandria is pretty much alive.

[Sentinel]

Virginia.
I was going to make a smart alecky comment about how it's in my profile, but I couldn't think of something terrible witty.
So, Sorry, no wit for you.

[Sentinel]

Eh we could dicker all day but giving boxers all proper nods I don't agree that they are in better shape than a colleiagte (sp) or Olympian contender wrestler of equal skill level. Ironman or marathons I would problably say yes to cardiovascularly.

However there are a couple of components to physical fitness [I as I see] that is flexibility,strength power, strength speed/jumping, cardiovascular endurance,anaerobic [strength] endurance and I hold the opinion that if one looks at all of these aspects then wrestlers are very much at/near the top of the pyramid at the professional [not pro-wrestlers per se]or advanced ameatur level.

As a totality of training vs. any man-to-man comparison which might not allow for individual differences.

True enough, I know many a wrestler who went on to Military training and told me that it wasn't as hard as the first few weeks of wrestling practice.

I don't know if it was the advent of the UFC and how well wrestlers like (Dan Severn) and (Don Frye) did in the sub-set of grappling or just a gradual realization that a takedown can often be executed as quickly as a strike but wrestling as been given more props in the last 5-10 years over all.

Once general knowledge of wrestling grew then the realization that joint locks and chokes had been sanitized from the sport but were still word-of-mouth skills among wrestlers also grew.

But not in many Roleplaying games, unfortunately. The arts of Boxing and Wrestling are completely marginalized, if even mentioned.

In fact, in my games now, I've trashed the basic 4(5, never was exactly down with Commando giving auto-dodge) fighting skills and created a physical skill called 'Martial Arts' to replace the removed boxing and wrestling physical skill.

Now, see, I like HtH:Commando, and combined with Boxing and Wrestling as skills, I like the fact that a Navy SEaL can fight a Monkey Style master, and not get munched just because the Monkey stylist has auto-dodge. This way, not every commando/SpecOp soldier has to have an Oriental martial art in order to be good.
To satisfy my campaign needs at home, I've written up Savate, Escrima, Kenpo (Ed Parker/Jeff Speakman style), Dirty Infighting, Elven fighting, Orcish fighting, European Fencing, and re-written a whole slew of the Oriental styles that I thought didn't get a good treatment the first time.
I've looked up obscure arts like Chulukua (Native American) and Bando (Indonesian) and done write-ups for those too.
With a Martial Arts Library of over fifty hardbacks and a collection of magazines going back to Black Belt 1970, I think I have some good reference material.

[Sentinel]

I haven't read all of the replies, but although I love WWE (my #1 hobby) it doesn't translate well to Palladium. My reasoning? It's as much about how the opponent interacts as the aggressor. Could Rey Mysterio really do a 619 without the opponent knowing it was going to happpen? Of course not. Could he do it in a real fight? Hmmm....on the other hand, could Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, or Shelton Benjamin do well in a street fight or a UFC contest? Absolutely. The difference between theatrical (and as I've said, I love professional wrestling) and real wrestling cannot be emphasised enough. A real pro wrestler is more akin to a gymnast, a figure skater, or an actor than a real athlete, they just perform more athletic versions of those said sports. And I applaud them for that. I just don't think that what they do should be integrated into the world of real martial arts that teach a lot different material then how to look good at fighting on screen.

You raise some valid points, and I had to take that into consideration as I wrote this, and it's cousin Luche Libre.
Still, Rey Mysterio could pull the move off (1) there was enough stuff to do it in the first place, (2) if he set up his opponent with a stun/KO first. Good sense has to come into play at some point, but in a cinematic context(which I have admitted I prefer), then you want the characters to go for the wild over-the-top moves. You want to bring out more Jackie Chans, Van Dammes, Jet Lis, and of course, WWE type stuff, which we can't help but notice, no one does in real wrestling. Larv\ger than life, that's my motto.
I had also started to write Pro Football as a fighting art, but have put that project aside for now, to be picked up later. I had visions of 'Borgs doing flying tackles and clotheslines ("8 Man After", anyone?).

[Sentinel]

If you want to do that it's just fine, but you should make a separate art for Wrestling and Stage Wrestling.

I agree. Real wrestling would have locks, holds, and possibly suplexes. DDT's, piledrivers, back body drops, etc would be reserved for stage wrestling. But I think that someone with a background in either could adapt (in say 1D4 years) to the other, because there are some parallels.

I have all of the elements you mentioned, and the more flamboyant elements can be visualised as simpler body flip/throws, which I have also included.
My feeling was that a real-life grappler like Ken Shamrock could become a pro-wrestler with little difficulty, and that would mean that he was in full control of the damage he did or didn't do. Therfore, if someone like Kane (WWE), decided to hurt me for real, instead of work with me, then a six and a half foot tall man weighing 300 lbs could easily lift and slam me on the ground, and it would be hurtful.
It was a way to give wrestling something cinematic, the way Kung-Fu has Chi Powers.

[Sentinel]

Who says Chi Powers don't really exist though?

You're not dragging me into that one.


IF they exist, then they are obviously highly guarded secrets.
IF they DO NOT exist, then there must be some other reality that the legend is based on.
Either way, neither point of real life Chi existance has any bearing on a Cinematic, Four-Colour, Epic Fiction arena.

[Sentinel]

If you want to do that it's just fine, but you should make a separate art for Wrestling and Stage Wrestling.

I agree. Real wrestling would have locks, holds, and possibly suplexes. DDT's, piledrivers, back body drops, etc would be reserved for stage wrestling. But I think that someone with a background in either could adapt (in say 1D4 years) to the other, because there are some parallels.

I have all of the elements you mentioned, and the more flamboyant elements can be visualised as simpler body flip/throws, which I have also included.
My feeling was that a real-life grappler like Ken Shamrock could become a pro-wrestler with little difficulty, and that would mean that he was in full control of the damage he did or didn't do. Therfore, if someone like Kane (WWE), decided to hurt me for real, instead of work with me, then a six and a half foot tall man weighing 300 lbs could easily lift and slam me on the ground, and it would be hurtful.
It was a way to give wrestling something cinematic, the way Kung-Fu has Chi Powers.

Kane, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesner, the Undertaker, all those guys could kill me if they wanted to. They wouldn't even have to perform a body slam. choke slam, power bomb, german suplex, etc. correctly. The PS bonus alone (plus my lack of parry, dodge, or roll techniques) would be enough to finish me off. But against someone that can fight? Kane vs. Ken Shamrock would be an interesting combat because of the disparate styles, but I think that Shamrock would win because when it comes down to grappling, the grappling specialist always wins (I'm sure I'm going to hear it for this). Face it, a triangle choke or a real armbar will always take down a man even if he has combat training. Now I don't know Kane's amateur upbringing but I believe that he is no way as experienced as Ken Shamrock and Shamrock has been in both a UFC and WWE ring. I simply believe that a UFC fighter will be better in a street fight because of experience, not because the WWE fighter is not a "real" fighter. Hell I think I'd lose a fight to Scotty 2 Hotty!

Ken Shamrock would have this style at a higher level than Kane, or would be using manuevers the average fighter doesn't have, or something.
The idea is : Realistic Fighter vs. any john doe, Realism wins. Realistic Fighter VS. Realistic Fighter, either could win (Think Lethal Weapon I). Realistic Fighter VS. Cinematic Fighter: Think Mel Gibson vs. Jet LI in Leathal Weapon IV.
This is not to promote grappling over striking, or striking over grapling, or anything like that: it's to promote Cinematic over Realistic. Now, theres a Cinematic grappling, to along with Cinematic striking.

[Sentinel]

I think I'd more rack up as Shamrock being a 'dedicated Martial artist' by N&SS rules, where he has two styles, Pro-Wrestling and Shootfighting.

Or, a HUII Physical Training character. In a lower powered N&SS game, replace SuperHuman PS with one Body Hardening Power or Atemi Ability.

[Sentinel]

Even more topic resurrection.

[Sentinel]

Even more topic resurrection.

Then damnit, I want you to go and read my new Physical Training focuses and styles and offer your opinion.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... hp?t=63942

Well:
I think your new classes are useful IF one is not already using the various martial arts OCCs from N&SS and Mystic China.
Some of your ideas have already been explored in Rifts Australia (combat athletes) and to a lesser extent as Juicer Sports.

I use the martial arts OCCs (as I mentioned) for things like the Meditative martial artist, with a focus on things like Chi Powers and Zenjoriki powers.
I find I can get much of your basic ideas while keeping to an established canon OCC (good for consistency).

However, that said: your ideas are good for someone who does not combine HU and N&SS (and there are those who do not).
I like the idea of a sort of "philosophical athlete" whose focus and orientation goes in a different direction for the more physically oriented.

[Sentinel]

Even more topic resurrection.

Then damnit, I want you to go and read my new Physical Training focuses and styles and offer your opinion.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... hp?t=63942

Well:
I think your new classes are useful IF one is not already using the various martial arts OCCs from N&SS and Mystic China.
Some of your ideas have already been explored in Rifts Australia (combat athletes) and to a lesser extent as Juicer Sports.

I use the martial arts OCCs (as I mentioned) for things like the Meditative martial artist, with a focus on things like Chi Powers and Zenjoriki powers.
I find I can get much of your basic ideas while keeping to an established canon OCC (good for consistency).

However, that said: your ideas are good for someone who does not combine HU and N&SS (and there are those who do not).
I like the idea of a sort of "philosophical athlete" whose focus and orientation goes in a different direction for the more physically oriented.

Well, I do combine N&S and HU2 as I view them as different takes on Contemporary Earth (as well as BTS). I basically worked on those PT focuses to create more variety for that class, which is admittedly lacking in a great level of detail.

You might also give a look at the Natural Genius of Beyond the Supernatural, and possibly even the Physical Psychic of BtS for more ideas and guidelines.

I assume this is still a work in progress for you?

[Sentinel]

You might also give a look at the Natural Genius of Beyond the Supernatural, and possibly even the Physical Psychic of BtS for more ideas and guidelines.

I assume this is still a work in progress for you?

Everything I do is a work in progress.

Well, keep at it, and let us know how it goes.

[csbioborg]

Face it, a triangle choke or a real armbar will always take down a man even if he has combat training.


I haven't been caught in a triangle choke in compeition in my life and armbarred only a handful of times (in six years of jiu jitsu comps). I have been caught in the triangle postion humerous times. A good jiu jitsu back ground or combat traing as you put it along with strengthing your shoulder and neck will help y) ou escape anytime. Its pretty easy to use the triangle to pass the person's guard . All you have to do is stack and grab the back of the neck and it breaks the triangle and since the legs are so high you pass right to side mount There are literaly dozens of escapes for the armbarr. Even if you finsih the armbar a tough guy such as Rich Clemni (UFC fighter that kept going) will keep fighting.

[greese1]

Face it, a triangle choke or a real armbar will always take down a man even if he has combat training.


I haven't been caught in a triangle choke in compeition in my life and armbarred only a handful of times (in six years of jiu jitsu comps). I have been caught in the triangle postion humerous times. A good jiu jitsu back ground or combat traing as you put it along with strengthing your shoulder and neck will help y) ou escape anytime. Its pretty easy to use the triangle to pass the person's guard . All you have to do is stack and grab the back of the neck and it breaks the triangle and since the legs are so high you pass right to side mount There are literaly dozens of escapes for the armbarr. Even if you finsih the armbar a tough guy such as Rich Clemni (UFC fighter that kept going) will keep fighting.

I call BS. What jui jitsu competitions are you going to that you try and stack into a triangle position to pass and not been caught in 6 years?

[csbioborg]

NAGA GQ Best of the west al the ones sponsored by USA Wrestling along with a whole lot of local tournemtns they just opened up grappling as a event last year
I've competed in Cagfe of fire and Reto Maximo in MMA

I've been armbarred and I gotg anacondaed last year once but I honestly have never been submited to a triangle in competition

I can't prove to you one way or another this fact but my point is good submission defense negates a lot of submsiions they aren't some magical thing that get you everytime

If you are having problems with being caught in triangle I'd suggest a couple things

first is core conditioning like neck bridges wall walks and planks. I put three inches of muscle on my neck by doing this. crossfit.com has a lot of these

second have a good partner start with one arm in and both go at about 25% this let's you get your posture and limb placement down. Preserqbly you should have your eyes closed when you are doing this

third learn to explode at 100 percent through the triangle. Its no different than finshing a double leg you just need to dirve hard.

and always remeber head up

I can't prove to you what I'm saying is true but I can gurantee you that if you incorprate that into you training then you will have very little trouble with triangles

[slade the sniper]

I originally had more initiative bonuses, but compared to the canon martial arts, I was a little munchkiny, so I cut back the final version some. I'll be listening to feedback and perhaps I'll kick initiative up a notch.
I figured since I most love cinematic flavor combat, I would pick the most cinematic style of grappling.
A friend of mine who also trains with a Gracie school once told me: "Jujutsu is hard to beat. Boring to watch, though."

I like the writeup a lot. A good wrestler, using only wrestling...in a real fight is a very dangerous opponent...I had my ass handed to me once by a guy from the Midwest that got a four year scholarship for Wrestling...I would give a bonus to initiative...they are faster than they appear!

Gracie jujutsu is a very good style of martial arts but against multiple opponents, it has some very serious weaknesses. Pairing Gracie with something else...a hard punching style perhaps will give very good results.

-STS