Do you support the Coalition? Come vote.

[Lenwen]

State why you do also, or why you don't.

As a GM I use them as thier written and intended to be .. the bad guys ..

But I like Salmon swim upstream......

[Jesterzzn]

State why you do also, or why you don't.

As a GM I use them as thier written and intended to be .. the bad guys ..

That is one way they are portrayed, however the fact that a rather large percentage of the main book is devoted to the use of the CS forces as player characters indicates that they are written and intended to be the protagonists as well.

[Lenwen]

State why you do also, or why you don't.

As a GM I use them as thier written and intended to be .. the bad guys ..

That is one way they are portrayed, however the fact that a rather large percentage of the main book is devoted to the use of the CS forces as player characters indicates that they are written and intended to be the protagonists as well.

Can try to portray them as you will but the fact remains ...

Emp Prosak WANTS to emulate people like ...
Genghis Kahn..
Julius Caesar ..
Napoleon ..
Hitlar ..

Now unless you have a different history book then me those people were not nice what so ever ...
Coalition War Machine .. pg 8 ..
Kevin Siembieda himself said flat out ..
he was formulating plans for our favorite villains for a long time ...

Further reading of that very page goes on to say flat out (also by Kevin Siembieda himself ) You may not believe it , but Prosek and his high command are more dispicable and duplicitous then you may have ever imagined ..

Now as the Creator of the Coalition States himself has flat out said ...
The CS are ment to be played as Villains ..
Does that mean there are not any good people in the CS armed forces ?
No . There are good folks in the Cs armed forces .. just like thier are good folks in the Chi-Town city fortress itself ..

but flat out the Coalition itself as written is supposed to be viewed as an evil empire .

Least that is what I took from the book Coalition War Campaign's pages ..

[Jesterzzn]

And as has been stated many times in this thread playing as a Coalition Soldier =/= playing as a member of the CS high command.

[Lenwen]

aye since these boards are cannon an the books themselves aint

just playin witcha lmao

[Jesterzzn]

aye since these boards are cannon an the books themselves aint

I wasn't saying that at all and I'm not even sure how you got that from what I said.

just playin witcha lmao

Oh. Well, I guess that explains it. Sorta.

[Lenwen]

aye since these boards are cannon an the books themselves aint

I wasn't saying that at all and I'm not even sure how you got that from what I said.

just playin witcha lmao

Oh. Well, I guess that explains it. Sorta.

I apologize mate .
Was only jokin witcha .

[Jesterzzn]

aye since these boards are cannon an the books themselves aint

I wasn't saying that at all and I'm not even sure how you got that from what I said.

just playin witcha lmao

Oh. Well, I guess that explains it. Sorta.

I apologize mate .
Was only jokin witcha .

I know, no need to apologize.

[dark brandon]

Further reading of that very page goes on to say flat out (also by Kevin Siembieda himself ) You may not believe it , but Prosek and his high command are more dispicable and duplicitous then you may have ever imagined ..

Now as the Creator of the Coalition States himself has flat out said ...
The CS are meant to be played as Villains ..
Does that mean there are not any good people in the CS armed forces ?
No . There are good folks in the Cs armed forces .. just like thier are good folks in the Chi-Town city fortress itself ..

but flat out the Coalition itself as written is supposed to be viewed as an evil empire .

Least that is what I took from the book Coalition War Campaign's pages ..

What is intended sometimes isn't what sometimes is created. Sometimes someone creates something and they have no idea what they've created.

CS, was suppose to be the baddies. But, he (I think) Unwillingly gave them more than they intended. He probably wanted some villains everyone loves to hate. He usually does that. Mechanoids for example. He likes these "supreme, overwhelming" Evils.

The problem is that I've found, not everyone hates them. He may have struck too close to him for some when creating this pro-military group to some people. By making them human, it's easy to have sympathy with their plight in a broken world. By making them militant, it shows discipline and structure. By making them "loyal" it shows heart and soul. Sure, the leaders are evil, and while I'm not "historian" most of the stuff I've read or seen (not all, but a lot) leaders usually are corrupt. Those who usually sympathize with CS, view them from the point of a soldier or a civilian, not a high ranking member of society(which is how I believe kevin is viewing them, as is described in the CS soldier as a PC)

Even when I've spoken with him, he seemed to have trouble grasping why exactly so many like CS. Or rather, he knew people "liked" them, but only because they were "Great villains". Not that people actually liked them for...well, being heroic.

The reason the CS are one of the most popular "Villains" in rifts, is because they are a 3 dimensional group, who are easy to sympathize with. They are powerful, but not overwhelming (Such as the splugorth). They are deadly, but nothing too horrific (Like Nxla). And while there are plenty of examples of CS being evil, there likewise are probably just as many of them being heroic. The heroic part is just easy for some to come to terms with, even if it wasn't spelled out.

Were they suppose to be villains. I think Yes. Were they written that way...yes and no. There are some examples of them not being completely evil or completely villain, though from the reading I believe it's been underplayed.

[Lenwen]

What is intended sometimes isn't what sometimes is created. Sometimes someone creates something and they have no idea what they've created.

Agreed . But in this case after 11 world books an at the time 3 sourcebooks an Several Dimension books ..
I think KS knew what he had created in the CS an knew how he wanted them to be played ...
As per the CWC book basically defining them as an evil Empire .

The reason the CS are one of the most popular "Villains" in rifts
And while there are plenty of examples of CS being evil, there likewise are probably just as many of them being heroic.
The heroic part is just easy for some to come to terms with, even if it wasn't spelled out.

I've never witnessed a decent honest to goodness Act of kindness from the CS ...
Never ever seen anything done simply cause they felt it in thier heart this is the best thing to do in this situation .

Were they suppose to be villains. I think Yes. Were they written that way...yes and no. There are some examples of them not being completely evil or completely villain, though from the reading I believe it's been underplayed.

Again which book is it that they were written as good guys ?
I had thought I had all thier books

[Lenwen]

As far as my standing as an Officer and Gentleman within the CS Military. I must state that my view towards D-Bee's and most other peaceful non-humans tends to not be as severe as some of the other officers within my command. But because of my shinning military record my Senior Officers tend **EDITED FOR SECURITY REASONS** But thats all I will say about that situation even if it is supposed to be off the record.


Col. McBride Tyson L
CS Special Forces Detachment Alpha
Chi-Town

I like this CS soilder ...

AT least Col McBride does not try to suger coat it

[dark brandon]

Agreed . But in this case after 11 world books an at the time 3 sourcebooks an Several Dimension books ..
I think KS knew what he had created in the CS an knew how he wanted them to be played ...
As per the CWC book basically defining them as an evil Empire .

Kevin, even in CWC and "definding them as evil", made note that not everyone in CS is evil, just the leadership. This, to me doesn't say an "evil empire", simply because we would have to say that most nations under the sun therefor are evil empires.

Simply put: Not everyone agrees that what the CS does is Evil or it's a nessissary evil. Kevin does, and I don't argue what the writer says. But I can argue that his view on what is good and evil is limited and too simplistic for the sake of the CS.

I've never witnessed a decent honest to goodness Act of kindness from the CS ...
Never ever seen anything done simply cause they felt it in thier heart this is the best thing to do in this situation .

Again which book is it that they were written as good guys ?
I had thought I had all thier books

Look under the PC section in both the CWC and RMB and RUE.

As for "act of kindness", look under CWC about the ISS who hunted the child killer in the sewers, the story in CS Navy (taking out of Great lake gargoyles), look under the story in the SoT, about the officer who freed the Dbees from the illegally set up camps.

[Lenwen]

Kevin, even in CWC and "definding them as evil", made note that not everyone in CS is evil, just the leadership. This, to me doesn't say an "evil empire", simply because we would have to say that most nations under the sun therefor are evil empires.

Simply put: Not everyone agrees that what the CS does is Evil or it's a nessissary evil. Kevin does, and I don't argue what the writer says. But I can argue that his view on what is good and evil is limited and too simplistic for the sake of the CS.

Bah thats obvious bro .
it does not take 100% everyone in any nation to be evil to classify it as an evil nation .

Just the ones in power can do that all by themselves ..
As the Coalition has proven ..

I've never witnessed a decent honest to goodness Act of kindness from the CS ...
Never ever seen anything done simply cause they felt it in thier heart this is the best thing to do in this situation .

Again which book is it that they were written as good guys ?
I had thought I had all thier books

Look under the PC section in both the CWC and RMB and RUE.

PC's dont show anything .. of course a PC is going to be humane ..
I've asked for a in book "cannon" show of act of Kindness from the CS military..

No one can show me this .. Cause its not how the CS is written to be an thus there are no such evidence of thier "kindness" ..

As for "act of kindness", look under CWC about the ISS who hunted the child killer in the sewers, the story in CS Navy (taking out of Great lake gargoyles), look under the story in the SoT, about the officer who freed the Dbees from the illegally set up camps.

Acts of "Self preservation" does not constitute "acts of kindness " givin time an even in the write up of that scenario that monster was actually killing grown humans as well ..

Hunting it an killing it is more an act of self preservation then any act of rightous generous act of kindness ..

The Gargs were actually a pain in the butt for the CS an thusly they eradicated them..

Both are not acts of kindness ..
Both are Acts of Self preservation ..

[Lenwen]

Dude, you just openly dismissed 2 good examples as "acts of self-preservation" when the people doing them were quite obviously putting themselves in danger.

Erin Tarn herself writes about being saved by CS troopers.

What exactly constitutes and act of kindness to you if putting your own life in danger to help others isn't?

I'm sorry for not agree'ing Alejandro ...

But flat out point blank ... CS soilders putting themselves in the line of danger for CS citizens as well as CS holdings is exactly that ...

self preservation ...

The story to which you stated about Erin Tarn herself being saved by the CS is flat out dismissed due to she ( as well as a bunch of other humans ) being attacked by none humans ... I think the city itself was actually a CS small city in the story I cant remember but I will look it up for you ..

Erin Tarn even goes on to state that had the CS known who she an her cyberknight protecter were she would have been taken in an her cyberknight protector would have been slain .. thus they made a hasty retreat ...

Basically the CS slaughtered other Debee's who happen to be attacking erin tarn an friends ... who left before the battle was even really started ..
Thus it holds no merit ..

[dark brandon]

I'm sorry for not agree'ing Alejandro ...

But flat out point blank ... CS soilders putting themselves in the line of danger for CS citizens as well as CS holdings is exactly that ...

self preservation ...

So, any soldier who fights for his nation is simply acting in self-preservation? I disagree, completely and overwhelmingly. Someone who fights for something other than themselves are the exact thing that reflects sacrifice, selflessness and anything else. The soldier fight for something greater than they are, and they fight for people who cannot fight for themselves.

Erin Tarn even goes on to state that had the CS known who she an her cyberknight protecter were she would have been taken in an her cyberknight protector would have been slain .. thus they made a hasty retreat ...

Basically the CS slaughtered other Debee's who happen to be attacking erin tarn an friends ... who left before the battle was even really started ..
Thus it holds no merit ..

You need to re-evaluate the statment. It's the exact thing you asked for. In no way did the CS have to save her, but they saved her because she was human. They did a self-less act, a kind act.

[Vrykolas2k]

Agreed . But in this case after 11 world books an at the time 3 sourcebooks an Several Dimension books ..
I think KS knew what he had created in the CS an knew how he wanted them to be played ...
As per the CWC book basically defining them as an evil Empire .

Kevin, even in CWC and "definding them as evil", made note that not everyone in CS is evil, just the leadership. This, to me doesn't say an "evil empire", simply because we would have to say that most nations under the sun therefor are evil empires.

Simply put: Not everyone agrees that what the CS does is Evil or it's a nessissary evil. Kevin does, and I don't argue what the writer says. But I can argue that his view on what is good and evil is limited and too simplistic for the sake of the CS.

I've never witnessed a decent honest to goodness Act of kindness from the CS ...
Never ever seen anything done simply cause they felt it in thier heart this is the best thing to do in this situation .

Again which book is it that they were written as good guys ?
I had thought I had all thier books

Look under the PC section in both the CWC and RMB and RUE.

As for "act of kindness", look under CWC about the ISS who hunted the child killer in the sewers, the story in CS Navy (taking out of Great lake gargoyles), look under the story in the SoT, about the officer who freed the Dbees from the illegally set up camps.

Who set up and ran the camps?
CS personnel and officers.
Who turned a blind eye to it, and set up its possibility of occuring?
Emperor Prozac and co.

[Vrykolas2k]

The CS reminds me too much of Nazis. My grandmother told me how bad things were with them around. Always in my groups with my husband, the only CS characters were what you would call "reformed".

You made them hippies like lazlonians

No, the characters were warriors; they just weren't Nazis anymore.

CS soldiers were never Nazi.

But they are Nazi like right.

I've explained why the CS are not like nazi's before. I just don't feel like repeating myself again...Sorry.

And yet... the writers compare them to nazis...
So either their perceptions are flawed ( ), or someone else's are ( ).

[dark brandon]

Who set up and ran the camps?
CS personnel and officers.

They illegally set up the camps.

Who turned a blind eye to it, and set up its possibility of occuring?
Emperor Prozac and co.

On the contrary, it was made very clear that having a camp would be a court-martial. It was why the one general wanted the camp destoried and why he was so angry when it wasn't.

[dark brandon]

And yet... the writers compare them to nazis...
So either their perceptions are flawed ( ), or someone else's are ( ).

And there are many reasons the CS are not like Nazi's. The CS are not Nazi dispite the similarities. The circumstances for their rise and the reasons are completely different.

[dark brandon]

Who set up and ran the camps?
CS personnel and officers.

They illegally set up the camps.

Who turned a blind eye to it, and set up its possibility of occuring?
Emperor Prozac and co.

On the contrary, it was made very clear that having a camp would be a court-martial. It was why the one general wanted the camp destoried and why he was so angry when it wasn't.

WERD.

SoT, book 5 I believe.

It's not like Tolkeen didn't have their camps doing similar things............there's a picture of a mage electrucuting CS personal in a cell, then another of a officer beating the face in of a CS SF trooper .........

Tolkeen allied themselves with demons and evil mages, proving what they are.

FoM attacked CS first back in the hay day and started the whole anti mage campaign.........before then the CS had mages in their army.

Lazlo is run by a dragon, sorry but that's always nothign but trouble..........why earth, dragons can go anywhere? b/c they don't respect humanities right to earth that's why.

New Lazlo - Just a bunch of hippies

Don't forget...Tolkeen was also allied by many cyber-knights...which means that roughly 1/2 of all cyber-knights in NA were allied with Demons.

CS may be evil...but at least there a human evil, a nessissary evil. Better than selling your soul to a demon who is nothing but evil and who only does things for the sake of being evil.

[Arnie100]

I voted the "Yes because they're humanity's best chance" line.

Let's get one thing straight: I love the Coalition (from an out-of-universe perspective). I love them as antagonists, protagonists (conflicted or otherwise), I love the design work behind them, I love the concept of the Coalition. They almost always figure heavily into my campaigns (though "Coalition campaigns" seem to be the most popular option among my gaming group). I think I could safely say that the Coalition is my favorite single element from the Rifts setting (though there are others that come close, particularly if you count Free Quebec as separate and distinct from the Coalition).

I would certainly never agree with many of their policies in real life and I fully recognize that most of their leadership are villains of the highest order, or scumbags at best. But despite that, I think for the moment the Coalition is more a force for good than evil in the Rifts world. They're right on that borderline, though, and could easily shift into "full on villain" modes pretty quickly.

But the fact is that there are very few "good" organizations in Rifts Earth, and often times ruthlessness is a very viable means of survival in that setting. Does that make it right? No, not always, but I can completely understand how many of the "common folk" would totally see the Coalition as heroic and worthy of loyalty and adoration.

Now, if I actually lived in Rifts Earth I'd probably prefer to live in Lazlo rather than Chi-Town, but again, from an out-of-universe perspective I'm all about the Coalition.

I'm with Jmacq1! The Coalition States striving to do the best it can for humanity! Would you like to know more (a joke)?

[Jay05]

That may well be, but it seems the Coalition supporters are being out voted. Even when you include those who voted in the "Best chance for survival" category. Wonder why that is? Could it be perhaps because the majority of the board (or at least those willing to take the time to vote) agree that the coalition is in fact an evil faction. And that NA would be better off if the current ruling government were taken down?

[Cybermancer]

Jay05 wrote:

That may well be, but it seems the Coalition supporters are being out voted. Even when you include those who voted in the "Best chance for survival" category. Wonder why that is? Could it be perhaps because the majority of the board (or at least those willing to take the time to vote) agree that the coalition is in fact an evil faction. And that NA would be better off if the current ruling government were taken down?

Just remember that 28% of respondants voted that they wouldn't get in the way of the CS either.

"It is evil enough that good men do nothing." -I totally forget who said it.

[Library Ogre]

Interesting question: By "Coalition dissolved", do the self-hating foes of humanity mean "The union between the glorious states of Missouri, El Dorado, Iron Heart, Lone Star and blessed Chi-Town", or do they mean "The removal of humanity from its strongholds on Earth, leaving only the separatists in 'Free' Quebec, who care more about their drugs and shiny tin soldiers than humanity?"

Because several, in saying that if the Coalition were removed, only "Free" Quebec would remain, forgetting, as their kind often does, that Iron Heart, El Dorado, and the Quebecois were invited to join the Coalition because they were strong, independent states already, not arbitrary divisions of territory.

[Jay05]

I meant someone new in charge who isn't so totally xenophobic and evil. Not a total destruction of the coalition military. I simply believe they are misguided at best under Prosek's rule and the level of human supremacy.

[Lenwen]

And NA would not be better off with CS being gone. Who's going to control the pecos bandits?

Well Red Fox for one would control them considering that he alone is the most sought after of ALL the Pacos Riders Warlords for Advice (even from the OTHER Warlords) Even the Dragon looks to him for advice ... so thats saying something right there ... They might not even NEED to be "controlled" but rather Unleashed ...

demons from FoM? Xiticix?........think Lazlo will step up to the plate? yeah right, they didn't even lend a helping hand to Tolkeen or FQ........and they were in the middle of it all(geographically).

Lazlo was not in the middle of the Tolkeen war nor even close to it geographically ... Lazlo is actually further away from Chi-Town then Tolkeen was ...an even in the complete 100% other direction ...

I made a thread about how what people would benefit from the CS being destroyed in NA.............the consensus would be that NA would take a step backwards in teh wrong direction to order.....

I dont believe that . I believe that for one all the good magic using city/states would band together an create thier own federation or coalition in the absence of the CS . Archie would have taken the majority of North America with relative impunity as well as banding with Free Quebec an creating a New Coalition sepratly in thier section of the N.A. Continent

[Lenwen]

:lol: That may well be, but it seems the Coalition supporters are being out voted. Even when you include those who voted in the "Best chance for survival" category. Wonder why that is? Could it be perhaps because the majority of the board (or at least those willing to take the time to vote) agree that the coalition is in fact an evil faction. And that NA would be better off if the current ruling government were taken down?

It is exactly how Kevin wrote them to be in thier own World Book CWC ... an evil empire an its been refurred to being such in virtually every book that they are written in . No not every single seintient being in the CS is inherently evil but the fact remains that thier leadership are an as such are seen thusly ..

When a CS grunt does something decent like the not killing the magic user but lettin them go they cant get Court-Martialled for it ..

Some one I read on this thread said something like is it evil when a good man lets it happen or something to that effect .. I say yes it is Your just as guilty if you turn a blind eye as the one who pulled the trigger .. wether your being forced to ( directly ordered ) or not .

This is why I consider the Coalition States as being evil ...

[Lenwen]

It is exactly how Kevin wrote them to be in thier own World Book CWC ... an evil empire an its been refurred to being such in virtually every book that they are written in . No not every single seintient being in the CS is inherently evil but the fact remains that thier leadership are an as such are seen thusly ..

When a CS grunt does something decent like the not killing the magic user but lettin them go they cant get Court-Martialled for it ..

Some one I read on this thread said something like is it evil when a good man lets it happen or something to that effect .. I say yes it is Your just as guilty if you turn a blind eye as the one who pulled the trigger .. wether your being forced to ( directly ordered ) or not .

This is why I consider the Coalition States as being evil ...

You generalizing a populous by its ruling body. How many people and or country's think the United States is Evil and because so think all American's are Evil and or ********??? In my Honest Opinion its not as Black and White as the Pro CS or the Anti CS people make it.

Sorry my friend but where in my statement did I generalize anything ? I even went so far as to say that not every single person in the Coalition is inherently evil , its the leadership .. dident know that was generalizing anything really ..

On the other hand you brought in what the world view of the US is at present ..
Working in the Oil Field ( an as a Vet myself 7 years at Ft. Bragg under Usasoc) I traveled virtually the whole populated world an seen my share of countries who utterly hate the US for our forign policy's of invading an setting up Pro US Governments ... we tried to do that in Cuba ( bay of pigs) We tried to do that in Korea , We tried to do it in Vietnam an were STILL doing it in Iraq ...

We see ourselves as the Worlds Police ...

The World see's us as meddlers ...

[dark brandon]

We see ourselves as the Worlds Police ...

The World see's us as meddlers ...

This is a good example of how a nation can be evil, and not see itself as evil.

[Lenwen]

We see ourselves as the Worlds Police ...

The World see's us as meddlers ...

This is a good example of how a nation can be evil, and not see itself as evil.

Well said Brandon
Well said .

[Lenwen]

Lazlo was not in the middle of the Tolkeen war nor even close to it geographically ... Lazlo is actually further away from Chi-Town then Tolkeen was ...an even in the complete 100% other direction ...

I made a thread about how what people would benefit from the CS being destroyed in NA.............the consensus would be that NA would take a step backwards in teh wrong direction to order.....

I dont believe that . I believe that for one all the good magic using city/states would band together an create thier own federation or coalition in the absence of the CS . Archie would have taken the majority of North America with relative impunity as well as banding with Free Quebec an creating a New Coalition sepratly in thier section of the N.A. Continent

I meant in the middle geographically when it came to FQ and CS, not Tolkeen..............sorry for the mis-understanding......

Magic city/states banding together?? dude they haven't done it once why would they do it now? the "good" magic states didn't even help TOlkeen(dweomnor, lazlo)...........Lazlo's dragon leader would do the same the Dragon kings did at Tolkeen, just leave and start a new life in another dimension, b/c since we're lesser being in thier eyes, why meddle with humans causing trouble??

Dweomnor threee kings/leaders aren't even human either, so why do they care? they won't...

Aye sorry for misreading ... In the post tho it never mentioned Free Quebec war .. only the tolkeen war .. sorry for miss reading my friend .

An actually other magic nations would have helped Tolkeens people to evacuate the kingdome but the king dident want to abandon his kingdome ..

An the Dragon leading Lazlo .. Might do what the Dragon Kings did .. then again he Might not ... that debate could go on endlessly ... as you said why meddle with lesser beings .. well the Dragon leader of Lazlo has already meddled in lesser beings lives by creating the city of Lazlo an inviting anyone who wishes to live there .... so that side of your debat is already shown to be false ...

[dark brandon]

An the Dragon leading Lazlo .. Might do what the Dragon Kings did .. then again he Might not ... that debate could go on endlessly ... as you said why meddle with lesser beings .. well the Dragon leader of Lazlo has already meddled in lesser beings lives by creating the city of Lazlo an inviting anyone who wishes to live there .... so that side of your debat is already shown to be false ...

but the Dragon kings did the same, and they still left..............and we all know it's in Dragons nature to be selfish, that's a proven fact, they're all about #1 and not really about ideals or nations.

You give higher supernatural beings too much credit for being "good".......they always end up falling back on their instincts, which is "I'm better than you, so I won't suffer for you"........unlike humans whom are known for their courage, dedication, self sacrifie to help fellow humans. And before you jump on the CS is all but that..........people who bash the CS always bring up only the top dawgs, bur forget the sacrifces the regular grunt soldier goes through in order to make his neighbors place a safer place to live.

A good example was in Contact..."It would be like going to africa to step on an ant-hill"..."But if we did go to africa and step on an ant hill, would we feel bad about it".

That's how SN creatures probably view humans. Good ones will take care and love their ants/pets. But a mortals life is short, and a dragon can do much more good with the time he has.

Remember, he didn't become an ancient dragon by staying and fighting to the death. He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day. Most supernatural beings probably adhere to this philsophy, because it really only makes sense. If may-flies were intelligent, and you helped build them a city in a day, and then you find out more may-flies are coming and these ones could...possibly kill you...would you really feel bad for leaving these intellectual may-flies, who would probably die in a week anyways. You may feel bad, but I doubt any would stay to help out. Better to let the storm pass and build again.

[Lenwen]

but the Dragon kings did the same, and they still left..............and we all know it's in Dragons nature to be selfish, that's a proven fact, they're all about #1 and not really about ideals or nations.

You generalize the entire species ... So your telling me not a single dragon of any kind would do something outta thier generalities would allow them to ??

And yet you want to go on an say that the CS grunt on average is good ... even with all the indocternation they go threw to become the average Grunt .. evils about magic .. evils about Debee's .. an how good for the sake of Humanity that they both be crushed ... utterly destroyed ...

You give higher supernatural beings too much credit for being "good".......they always end up falling back on their instincts, which is "I'm better than you, so I won't suffer for you"........unlike humans whom are known for their courage, dedication, self sacrifie to help fellow humans. And before you jump on the CS is all but that..........people who bash the CS always bring up only the top dawgs, bur forget the sacrifces the regular grunt soldier goes through in order to make his neighbors place a safer place to live.

Ya had me agree'ing with you up until the CS jumped into this ..
The Grunt has to do what he is told by a supiorior Officer no questions asked .. if not he gets into huge arse trouble ..
Knowing that to mist a innocent Debee for just being a different race is wrong .. YET
doing it cause its a direct order does not make that person better cuase he was told to do it .. he did it cause of the system he lives in .. kill debees or you face courtmartial an possibly even gettin booted outta the CS totally .. Self preservation makes that Grunt mist those innocent Debees cause he wants to stay in the CS military ...he does not mist those innocent Debees cause those innocent Debees were a threat to the very survival of the People inside the Chi-Town walls or any other city state ... he did it cause he was told to do it its the same thing as him doing it for his own reasons . That makes the CS grunt evil .The AVERAGE CS grunt ..

Just because your boss tells you to push some one off the empire state building does not make you have to do so ..

You have a choice .. you either choose to follow orders ..
Or..
You dont an you make a stand for what you believe in .. if you choose to stand (doing the right thing ) you risk everything you know .. THATS what I call a selfless act

Not well ok the Major told me to get the platoon together an go mist this entire debee village and I Really dont want to but I have to ..

[dark brandon]

Ya had me agree'ing with you up until the CS jumped into this ..
The Grunt has to do what he is told by a supiorior Officer no questions asked .. if not he gets into huge arse trouble ..
Knowing that to mist a innocent Debee for just being a different race is wrong .. YET
doing it cause its a direct order does not make that person better cuase he was told to do it .. he did it cause of the system he lives in .. kill debees or you face courtmartial an possibly even gettin booted outta the CS totally .. Self preservation makes that Grunt mist those innocent Debees cause he wants to stay in the CS military ...he does not mist those innocent Debees cause those innocent Debees were a threat to the very survival of the People inside the Chi-Town walls or any other city state ... he did it cause he was told to do it its the same thing as him doing it for his own reasons . That makes the CS grunt evil .The AVERAGE CS grunt ..

Just because your boss tells you to push some one off the empire state building does not make you have to do so ..

You have a choice .. you either choose to follow orders ..
Or..
You dont an you make a stand for what you believe in .. if you choose to stand (doing the right thing ) you risk everything you know .. THATS what I call a selfless act

Not well ok the Major told me to get the platoon together an go mist this entire debee village and I Really dont want to but I have to ..

This isn't a boss. This is self-preservation on the side of the CS soldier. It's not just him risking his life if he doesn't do it, he risks the lives of the people he loves and cares for.

It's easy to sacrifice yourself. Now put yourself into the shoes of a CS soldier. Him standing up to an officer does more than put him in danger. It puts his family and possibly the rest of the platoon and possibly the entire platoons family in danger. It's easy to destroy you're life, but now that you actually have people who, of no fault of their own are affected by your decisions.

Why his family, his platoon and the family of his platoon? Simple. If i am an evil dictator and I have this person spreading info that I don't want spread, i'm going to want to find out who he spread it to. I'd question the platoon and his family (those closest to him) to see if he got to them. Then I would check on the families because, even if they were not affected by his words, soldiers tend to message family home when out in the field and they may have inadvertently set off a chain reaction. Finally, if this person were to have somehow slipped my grasp, I would do what I had to to get him back to keep him from doing more damage.

In this case, it's much more selfless of the soldier to do as he's told. Not because he wants to, but because he has to make the ultimate sacrifice. The sacrifice of the self to make sure the ones that he loves are safe.

[Xenogears]

Since the books compare the CS to fascist Germany all the time, so will I. The Nazis who led Germany and those who participated in their atrocities deserved everything they got. The line soldier who was fighting for his country on the battlefield, I have no malice for. The leadership of the CS is rotten and evil to the core. Anyone who commits atrocities for the CS is no better.

You tell them!

[Lenwen]

Sorry about that, I did not catch your other post regarding what you had said. I am also a Vet, was at Ft Bragg from 2000/2005. 11B Airborne A Company 82nd 1-504 Parachute Infantry Regiment was getting ready to go through Q Course and got FUBAR'd in a Car Wreck.

Aye nuthing like running the entire length of Ardennes an then back on gruber haha
I was 618th Eng bat also in the 80Duece for a few years then got sapper then Q course an well was moved to Usasoc lol an the rest is history Did you ever get Jump master qualified ? or anything like dat bro ? bet we could swap stories for HOURS haha .

[Lenwen]

That makes three of us:

HHC, 82nd Abn Div, 1997-1999
HHC 2nd Bde, 82nd Abn Div (also known as the 325th AIR), 1999-2000
HHC 2-325 Airborne Infantry Regiment 2000-2001.

Yeah, I served my stint in Fayet-nam. and pounded plenty of pavement on Gruber and Ardennes. Didn't get Jumpmaster qualified but I ended up with 63 jumps on my log.

/Salutes brother in arms . . Have not heard it called Fayet-Nam in forever LMFAO..

[Lenwen]

Sorry about that, I did not catch your other post regarding what you had said. I am also a Vet, was at Ft Bragg from 2000/2005. 11B Airborne A Company 82nd 1-504 Parachute Infantry Regiment was getting ready to go through Q Course and got FUBAR'd in a Car Wreck.

Aye nuthing like running the entire length of Ardennes an then back on gruber haha
I was 618th Eng bat also in the 80Duece for a few years then got sapper then Q course an well was moved to Usasoc lol an the rest is history Did you ever get Jump master qualified ? or anything like dat bro ? bet we could swap stories for HOURS haha .

Never became a Jump Master, Spent to much time in the Box. My Uncle is a Col and an 18A with 3rd SF, so I got to do a lot of stuff with them while I was over in the suck. I had completed Advanced Marksmanship Course way back in 2000 so while I was in the sand pit I usually packed around my SPR, M107 stayed in the Humm usually. I never was much for wasting ammunition. Plus growing up in Montana I was a hunter so it all came naturally to me.

Dear lord your from montana LMFAO bro I practically grew up in Montana .. I lived mostly in North Dakota after I turned 16 but Montana is my old stomping grounds haha

[Library Ogre]

Sorry about that, I did not catch your other post regarding what you had said. I am also a Vet, was at Ft Bragg from 2000/2005. 11B Airborne A Company 82nd 1-504 Parachute Infantry Regiment was getting ready to go through Q Course and got FUBAR'd in a Car Wreck.

Aye nuthing like running the entire length of Ardennes an then back on gruber haha
I was 618th Eng bat also in the 80Duece for a few years then got sapper then Q course an well was moved to Usasoc lol an the rest is history Did you ever get Jump master qualified ? or anything like dat bro ? bet we could swap stories for HOURS haha .

Never became a Jump Master, Spent to much time in the Box. My Uncle is a Col and an 18A with 3rd SF, so I got to do a lot of stuff with them while I was over in the suck. I had completed Advanced Marksmanship Course way back in 2000 so while I was in the sand pit I usually packed around my SPR, M107 stayed in the Humm usually. I never was much for wasting ammunition. Plus growing up in Montana I was a hunter so it all came naturally to me.

Dear lord your from montana LMFAO bro I practically grew up in Montana .. I lived mostly in North Dakota after I turned 16 but Montana is my old stomping grounds haha

Chorus: "Eagle River?"

Sorry. It's what came to mind.

[Lenwen]

Sorry about that, I did not catch your other post regarding what you had said. I am also a Vet, was at Ft Bragg from 2000/2005. 11B Airborne A Company 82nd 1-504 Parachute Infantry Regiment was getting ready to go through Q Course and got FUBAR'd in a Car Wreck.

Aye nuthing like running the entire length of Ardennes an then back on gruber haha
I was 618th Eng bat also in the 80Duece for a few years then got sapper then Q course an well was moved to Usasoc lol an the rest is history Did you ever get Jump master qualified ? or anything like dat bro ? bet we could swap stories for HOURS haha .

Never became a Jump Master, Spent to much time in the Box. My Uncle is a Col and an 18A with 3rd SF, so I got to do a lot of stuff with them while I was over in the suck. I had completed Advanced Marksmanship Course way back in 2000 so while I was in the sand pit I usually packed around my SPR, M107 stayed in the Humm usually. I never was much for wasting ammunition. Plus growing up in Montana I was a hunter so it all came naturally to me.

Dear lord your from montana LMFAO bro I practically grew up in Montana .. I lived mostly in North Dakota after I turned 16 but Montana is my old stomping grounds haha

Chorus: "Eagle River?"

Sorry. It's what came to mind.

You good sir ... are Mr. Funny pants today I see

[Lenwen]

is the cs evil or the ones that issue the orders evil? this has come up in our games almost weekly. the grunt in the trenchs is doing what he or she can to keep thier families alive and protection of thier nation is the only way this is is accomplished. how many grunt,SAMAS pilots or juicers probably said in anger,everything was fine till you d-bee's showed up? i know im making light of this but i believe its true.

As stated in CWC and in Rue ...

The top Echleon's of power .. the Emp , his fields Generals an most higher ups in the military are all aberrent or worse (evil alignments) ...

So basically its the ones who issue the orders are the ones who are evil ..

[dark brandon]

is the cs evil or the ones that issue the orders evil? this has come up in our games almost weekly. the grunt in the trenchs is doing what he or she can to keep thier families alive and protection of thier nation is the only way this is is accomplished. how many grunt,SAMAS pilots or juicers probably said in anger,everything was fine till you d-bee's showed up? i know im making light of this but i believe its true.

I don't much like animes, but there was one anime (Name I can't remember, if anyone knows, that'd be cool to know) in which this girl who was a member of the press or something got an interview with the main enemie leader. She turned out she wanted to kill him because the war he brought got her lover/boyfriend/husband killed. When he asked why she was going to kill him she said "Because you killed X." and he responded

"Generals don't kill people, they just issue orders. Soldiers don't kill people, they take orders from their superiors. You see, the only one who kills is war, and that is inevitable"...Quote may be off, but it was an interesting quote.

I'd like to know the name of the anime just to see it completely.

[dark brandon]

To me that sounds like someone saying "Guns kill people." Well so can most everything we come across in our daily lives. People kill people, What ever they use to get the job done is not at fault. Its the person behind the wheel, the person pulling the trigger, the person swinging the baseball bat...ect...ect...

Well, I think the idea behind the theory is that there are things so big, you can't classify it singly. It's like someone calling walmart "evil". There isn't anything singularly about it that's evil. The people work there only try to make a living. The higher ups want a prosperous business, but never themselves go so far as to actually "sell" anything. they just make the decisions.

[Jesterzzn]

So wait, the person that conditions the soldier to follow orders, and then issues orders that might be evil, is himself not evil because he didn't carry out the act?

BS.

[Lenwen]

So wait, the person that conditions the soldier to follow orders, and then issues orders that might be evil, is himself not evil because he didn't carry out the act?

BS.

Agreed ...

The Person Issueing the order ...
And the Person carrying out the order ...

Are both evil ...

[dark brandon]

So wait, the person that conditions the soldier to follow orders, and then issues orders that might be evil, is himself not evil because he didn't carry out the act?

BS.

I think that is what the saying gets at. While he may issue an order, no one has to follow orders. There are dangers in not doing so, but a person always has a choice, but in another perspective, the one doing it doesn't really have a choice.

I think it was nieche who wrote "- What is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil."

Maybe the proseks really don't love what they have to do, which is why they are evil...but it's something they have to do.

[dark brandon]

So wait, the person that conditions the soldier to follow orders, and then issues orders that might be evil, is himself not evil because he didn't carry out the act?

BS.

Agreed ...

The Person Issueing the order ...
And the Person carrying out the order ...

Are both evil ...

When in a corporation, you have an obligation to the company. You don't actually carry out the act of say closing a store in a small town that destroys it, someone else does. You don't actually pull any triggers. The lowers do it because it's something they are told to do, and to not do it would bring harm in one form or another to them (being fired). Can you really call someone who is guilty by association evil, because you have to consider that everyone in any nation therefor is evil by default.

You, me...everyone. But we're not evil, at least we don't think so. We go about our lives not really wanting to harm people, but when we do.

In this way, it becomes guiltless...

[Lenwen]

When in a corporation, you have an obligation to the company. You don't actually carry out the act of say closing a store in a small town that destroys it, someone else does. You don't actually pull any triggers. The lowers do it because it's something they are told to do, and to not do it would bring harm in one form or another to them (being fired). Can you really call someone who is guilty by association evil, because you have to consider that everyone in any nation therefor is evil by default.

I know what your trying to say ...
But lets put this in perspective ... Honestly ...

You said ...
"When in a corporation ( Coalition ), you have an obligation to the company( Coalition ). You don't actually carry out the act of say closing a store in a small town that destroys it( Going in an clearing out a Debee Town ), someone else does The grunts . You don't actually pull any triggers Again the Grunts do by Your order . The lowers do it because it's something they are told to do By Your orders , and to not do it would bring harm in one form or another to them (being fired) reprimanded . Can you really call someone who is guilty by association evil, because you have to consider that everyone in any nation therefor is evil by default"

Actually not everyone issued the order ... Not every knows you cleared out that town of Debee's .. only a very small % of the overall population would know about it even existing at all ... Yet it was Ordered to be destroyed an the civilians killed .. cause thier Debee's ...

The person issueing the order ...
As well as ...
The person carring out the order ...
Are in fact ...
Evil ...
No matter HOW you look at it ...

[Lenwen]

First off ..

Well said my friend ..

Secondly ... in all honesty If you have to do Evil things just to join an orginization an keep your family safe .... that in itself is knowingly going in with your eyes wide open ..

an so when they issue those orders to kill that little debee child who has obviously threatend the very existance of the Average Chi-Town Citizen hundreds of miles away in thier Fortress city

and you execute the order ....

Thats evil ..

It does not matter if your doing it to safe your own family ...from being booted out or being labled or anything ...

The End does NOT justify the means ... I am sorry but it does not ... Especially in the context you want it to .. ( aka the Coalition ) ....

To Kill the Debee child so that your own family can enter Chi-Town or what ever member city is an act of EVIL all by itself ...

I dont know how else to say that my friend ...

[Lenwen]

First off ..

Well said my friend ..

Secondly ... in all honesty If you have to do Evil things just to join an orginization an keep your family safe .... that in itself is knowingly going in with your eyes wide open ..

an so when they issue those orders to kill that little debee child who has obviously threatend the very existance of the Average Chi-Town Citizen hundreds of miles away in thier Fortress city

and you execute the order ....

Thats evil ..

It does not matter if your doing it to safe your own family ...from being booted out or being labled or anything ...

The End does NOT justify the means ... I am sorry but it does not ... Especially in the context you want it to .. ( aka the Coalition ) ....

To Kill the Debee child so that your own family can enter Chi-Town or what ever member city is an act of EVIL all by itself ...

I dont know how else to say that my friend ...

Well said also, but as I was saying. A lot of these line soldiers have no real education. They do not know that the Debee child is harmless. For all they know, that Debee can rip them apart with its bare hands. And thats what has been taught to line soldiers. So in a way, they are brain washed zombies who do not know any better. Of course some are evil and just enjoying killing. I think thats why you see a lot of Special Forces Soldiers look the other way when they are supposed to carry out these orders. First of all Cs SF tend to be well educated, they spend a lot of time in the suck behind enemy lines so they know that a lot of the propaganda the cs puts out is bs and they tend to look the other way. SF are free thinkers

Where does it say all this about the Coalitions Special Forces ??