Rules that make the game somewhat playable.

[Dog_O_War]

Howdy.

This is what I use to make combat run smoothly, as almost no book-keeping is required, it makes sense, and you can track everything without having to keep tabs on everything.

I'll post the basics for initiative right now, and then when I get home (and can delve through my notes) I will post more about ranged combat (still working on the melee end of it, so that might be a while).

Combat in Rifts is one of the most annoyingly clunky automations, and it all starts with...

...Initiative. The basics are as follows; every character has attacks/actions they can perform in a single round (15 seconds): for most merc. characters this is between 4-6 per round. Well to streamline the process, I make every player write up a single chart that counts down from 15.
Every action taken starts on the 15th second of that round, and boils down from there.
Example: a head hunter with 5 attacks (expert combat and boxing). The second attack line is because he also has sharp-shooting, which could affect the amount of attacks he makes in a round (and if he wants to bail, it's easy, just chop an attack from the bottom of the round off).

Code: Select all

SECOND   ATTACKS(1)   ATTACKS(2)
15           x              x
14
13
12           x              x
11
10
09           x              x
08
07                           x
06           x
05
04                           x
03           x     
02
01                           x

This chart shows exactly when his attack will come about in a given round. If he makes an aimed shot, then it happens on the next available attack. If he's forced to dodge instead of shoot that action, I'd allow an attack roll made at half the normal bonuses (as if bursting even though it's a single shot).

Now the player (and the GM) will always know when he's going in a given round. But how does initiative play into this, you ask? Simple. At a given second count there will be others going at the same time as you; who ever has the highest initiative goes first, while ties are simoltaineous actions.

This is a really easy to use system, as every player has a chart pre-made; all the GM has to do is call out a "second count". You'll note that the sharp-shooting changes the count for the head-hunter; what I do is round the fractions of 15 divided by your actions count (6 attacks means one every 2.5 seconds), and about the middle (or a convenient spot to divide by) I placed two attacks closer together. This is all for simplicity.

Another thing to note is non-combatants; people with like 2-3 actions. They aren't left completely screwed; They get one action at 15, and then one at 7 (for 2 action people), or one at 10, and then their last one at 5. The reason we always count down from the top is because sometimes these guys will go first thanks to a good initiative roll, and if they recieved an attack a second 8 and then their last one at second 1 it would make the initiative pointless.

You'll also note that people who are exceptionally fast (like Juicers) don't completely dominate one end of the attacks spectrum. I've played in games where all attacks happened durning your initiative (really annoying when there is a two-gun fighting Hyperion Juicer with sharp-shooting, and you're a merc with base-line H-to-H Assassin), and in games where attacks were ALWAYS offered as one after another; captain 10-attacks would go once, Senior no-combat would go once (of his two actions), etc... leaving captain 10-attacks with 5 actions at the end of the round.

If you find that you are making a legitimate number of attacks that exceeds 15 (double shooting/sword-swinging happen at the same second count), then just start the chart over again, placing your 16th attack right at the top and work your way down again.

One last thing to note; actions that take 3 or more attacks (called, aimed shot) these happen at the median; you have 5 attacks and your first action is a called/aimed shot; second 15 is taken up aiming, second 12 is when you shoot, second 9 leaves you action-less. It's done this way because of the micro-managed actions; if the shot went off at second 9, that leaves 5 initiative counts for someone to attack you and mess up your shot (which is lame and un-heroic). Also, grenades; they have a set timer (I use 4 seconds), so you will always know when the thing goes off, and where!


This is how I run combat, and not only do I love it, but so do my players.
What do you think?
(yes, Retired Juicer, it's me).

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't think that really makes things easier, but if it works for you, that's cool.
I've seen other people use essentially the same system.

[Dog_O_War]

I don't think that really makes things easier, but if it works for you, that's cool.
I've seen other people use essentially the same system.

What do you use then?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't think that really makes things easier, but if it works for you, that's cool.
I've seen other people use essentially the same system.

What do you use then?

Me and KC both use the initive rules exsactly as written.

Still works fine.

[Dog_O_War]

I don't think that really makes things easier, but if it works for you, that's cool.
I've seen other people use essentially the same system.

What do you use then?

Me and KC both use the initive rules exsactly as written.

Still works fine.

So how much paper do you use for a combat between 5 players and 12 NPC's, totalling more than 70 attacks in 15 seconds? I would rant about the amount of mistakes and complexities and contradictions about the rules for rifts, but I'm sure you've heard them all before. Lets just say I disagree with your point of using the rules as written.

I'm trying to brainstorm and offer a more cohesive rules set without turning it into d20. I like the setting and all, but the current rules for it leave me wanting.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't think that really makes things easier, but if it works for you, that's cool.
I've seen other people use essentially the same system.

What do you use then?

Me and KC both use the initive rules exsactly as written.

Still works fine.

So how much paper do you use for a combat between 5 players and 12 NPC's, totalling more than 70 attacks in 15 seconds?

Usually, just enough paper to write down 17 initiatives.

But it depends a bit on what sort of combat it is, and who's involved.
If those 12 NPCs include 4 Mechanoid Thinmen, 4 Runts, and 4 Wasps, for example, I might give each group of NPCs a single initiative, so I only have to track 8 initiatives.

What I typically do when I run is to get a blank sheet of lined paper and write down each of the PC's names (this helps me remember them), one on each line. Next, I write down any special abilities that the character has that might come up before combat (though clarification of 6th Sense and Detect Ambush has negated a lot of their effectiveness).
(Any NPCs traveling with the party go at the bottom of the list of characters)

Roughly like so:

Lord Laser: 6th Sense, DA* (50%)
El Lobo Solo: 6th Sense, Detect Supernatural 600'
Norman Patton: DA (55%), DC** (65%)
Cammo: DC (70%)
Basil: DA (60%), DC (45%), sonar

*Detect Ambush
**Detect Concealment

When combat starts, everybody rolls their init, adds their bonuses, and tells me the total, which I jot next to their name, off to the left.
So now it looks like this:

Lord Laser: 6th Sense, DA* (50%)_________________17
El Lobo Solo: 6th Sense, Detect Supernatural 600'____23
Norman Patton: DA (55%), DC** (65%)_____________15
Cammo: DC (70%)______________________________10
Basil: DA (60%), DC (45%), sonar_________________11


This leaves a most of the page blank.
In the blank space underneath, I keep track of enemies during combat:

Thinmen:
X Init, Y MDC
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Runts:
Z Init, Q MDC
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Wasps:
A Init, B MDC
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

OR just group them together:

Thinmen: Init X
Y MDC
Y MDC
Y MDC
Y MDC

Runts:
Runts:Z Init
Q MDC
Q MDC
Q MDC
Q MDC

Wasps: A Init
B MDC
B MDC
B MDC
B MDC

I'm trying to brainstorm and offer a more cohesive rules set without turning it into d20. I like the setting and all, but the current rules for it leave me wanting.

What exactly is it that you're wanting here?
If I know that, I might be able to offer advice.

[Dog_O_War]

I don't think that really makes things easier, but if it works for you, that's cool.
I've seen other people use essentially the same system.

What do you use then?

Me and KC both use the initive rules exsactly as written.

Still works fine.

So how much paper do you use for a combat between 5 players and 12 NPC's, totalling more than 70 attacks in 15 seconds?

Usually, just enough paper to write down 17 initiatives.

But it depends a bit on what sort of combat it is, and who's involved.
If those 12 NPCs include 4 Mechanoid Thinmen, 4 Runts, and 4 Wasps, for example, I might give each group of NPCs a single initiative, so I only have to track 8 initiatives.

What I typically do when I run is to get a blank sheet of lined paper and write down each of the PC's names (this helps me remember them), one on each line. Next, I write down any special abilities that the character has that might come up before combat (though clarification of 6th Sense and Detect Ambush has negated a lot of their effectiveness).
(Any NPCs traveling with the party go at the bottom of the list of characters)

Roughly like so:

Lord Laser: 6th Sense, DA* (50%)
El Lobo Solo: 6th Sense, Detect Supernatural 600'
Norman Patton: DA (55%), DC** (65%)
Cammo: DC (70%)
Basil: DA (60%), DC (45%), sonar

*Detect Ambush
**Detect Concealment

When combat starts, everybody rolls their init, adds their bonuses, and tells me the total, which I jot next to their name, off to the left.
So now it looks like this:

Lord Laser: 6th Sense, DA* (50%)_________________17
El Lobo Solo: 6th Sense, Detect Supernatural 600'____23
Norman Patton: DA (55%), DC** (65%)_____________15
Cammo: DC (70%)______________________________10
Basil: DA (60%), DC (45%), sonar_________________11


This leaves a most of the page blank.
In the blank space underneath, I keep track of enemies during combat:

Thinmen:
X Init, Y MDC
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Runts:
Z Init, Q MDC
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Wasps:
A Init, B MDC
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

OR just group them together:

Thinmen: Init X
Y MDC
Y MDC
Y MDC
Y MDC

Runts:
Runts:Z Init
Q MDC
Q MDC
Q MDC
Q MDC

Wasps: A Init
B MDC
B MDC
B MDC
B MDC

I'm trying to brainstorm and offer a more cohesive rules set without turning it into d20. I like the setting and all, but the current rules for it leave me wanting.

What exactly is it that you're wanting here?
If I know that, I might be able to offer advice.

Your method there is what I used to do until I got sick of wasting paper ALL the time. But I noticed something; you write down what senses a character has available and up. I Never even thought about that - will definately work that in!

[verdilak]

To be honest, I just determine a rough amount on the SDC/MDC of the villians and normally roll initiative once and leave it at that. Fights last as long as I am having fun, but once the fight gets boring MDC usually gets depleted heh. I hate having a fight last hours due to the amount of MDC the villians have, so I have a rough estimate in my head and roughly do the math on damage done and whatnot and go from there.

[verdilak]

To be honest, I just determine a rough amount on the SDC/MDC of the villians and normally roll initiative once and leave it at that. Fights last as long as I am having fun, but once the fight gets boring MDC usually gets depleted heh. I hate having a fight last hours due to the amount of MDC the villians have, so I have a rough estimate in my head and roughly do the math on damage done and whatnot and go from there.

[Killer Cyborg]

Your method there is what I used to do until I got sick of wasting paper ALL the time.

Eh.
I just erase the inits and rewrite them each time, so that one sheet lasts me for quite a few sessions.
Using up paper was never really a concern for me.

And I'm not sure how having each player write up a chart uses less paper.

But I noticed something; you write down what senses a character has available and up. I Never even thought about that - will definately work that in!

I got tired of saying, "roll for initiative!" and having people say, "What? I have 6th Sense; it should have gone off a minute ago!"
Or whatever.
See Invisible is another must to keep track of, and cybernetic hearing, etc.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't think that really makes things easier, but if it works for you, that's cool.
I've seen other people use essentially the same system.

What do you use then?

Me and KC both use the initive rules exsactly as written.

Still works fine.

So how much paper do you use for a combat between 5 players and 12 NPC's, totalling more than 70 attacks in 15 seconds? I would rant about the amount of mistakes and complexities and contradictions about the rules for rifts, but I'm sure you've heard them all before. Lets just say I disagree with your point of using the rules as written.

I'm trying to brainstorm and offer a more cohesive rules set without turning it into d20. I like the setting and all, but the current rules for it leave me wanting.

I've never used more than half a page for combat. total. just a list of the names of those participating: party names, NPC names, or just Grunt 4.

sometimes, next to the name, i'll write their SDC or MDC total and subtract from it as necessary

when one round is over, I erase it and write a new one.

I typically only need 1 peice of paper every few games.

What more than the name list do you need?

[Danger]

At first glance it seems overly complex. It could just be that I'm at work with no books for comparison. However, it if works for you, I think it's great that you've got your own system.

Generally speaking, my group uses initiative as per the book.

[Dog_O_War]

The chart in code never changes, as it monitors the number of possible attacks a player or enemy has. Once the chart is written up (taking into account minimum attacks for one column, then increased attacks due to stuff like robot combat, sharp-shooting, etc...) If you have an action on the same second count as another player or NPC, then who ever has the highest initiative goes first.

I have one sheet with several charts written on it; from 2 attacks to 8 attacks; this covers most every NPC without having to create and memorise all sorts of crap. It's not as complicated as I explain it; I'm just bad at explaining things . The chart in the first post is as complicated as it gets - maybe look it over and then just go off of assumptions from this.

Also, I said I would post some combat rules, but I didn't have time to re-read my notes yet, so these will come later today.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The chart in code never changes, as it monitors the number of possible attacks a player or enemy has. Once the chart is written up (taking into account minimum attacks for one column, then increased attacks due to stuff like robot combat, sharp-shooting, etc...) If you have an action on the same second count as another player or NPC, then who ever has the highest initiative goes first.

I have one sheet with several charts written on it; from 2 attacks to 8 attacks; this covers most every NPC without having to create and memorise all sorts of crap. It's not as complicated as I explain it; I'm just bad at explaining things . The chart in the first post is as complicated as it gets - maybe look it over and then just go off of assumptions from this.

Also, I said I would post some combat rules, but I didn't have time to re-read my notes yet, so these will come later today.

Dosn't that get a liiitle bit dull for you, though? always the same initive game after game? there's never any fear of a surprise.

[Dog_O_War]

The chart in code never changes, as it monitors the number of possible attacks a player or enemy has. Once the chart is written up (taking into account minimum attacks for one column, then increased attacks due to stuff like robot combat, sharp-shooting, etc...) If you have an action on the same second count as another player or NPC, then who ever has the highest initiative goes first.

I have one sheet with several charts written on it; from 2 attacks to 8 attacks; this covers most every NPC without having to create and memorise all sorts of crap. It's not as complicated as I explain it; I'm just bad at explaining things . The chart in the first post is as complicated as it gets - maybe look it over and then just go off of assumptions from this.

Also, I said I would post some combat rules, but I didn't have time to re-read my notes yet, so these will come later today.

Dosn't that get a liiitle bit dull for you, though? always the same initive game after game? there's never any fear of a surprise.

You still roll your initiative, the chart just keeps track of when your attacks come up.

You take what you rolled for initiative and compare it to all the other attacks on your second count.
An example; a Juicer and a Head-hunter square off against 3 CS grunts. One of the grunts has boxing.

They roll for initiative;
Juicer gets a 20 and goes on 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, and 3.
Head-Hunter gets a 10 and goes on 15, 12, 9, 6, and 3 (he has boxing).
1st grunt got a 3 and goes on 15, 11, 7, and 3.
2nd grunt got a 21 and goes on 15, 11, 7, and 3.
3rd grunt got an 8 and goes on 15, 12, 9, 6, and 3.

At second 15 in the round (because a round has 15 seconds) Grunt#2 goes first at 21, then the Juicer at 20, the Head-Hunter at 10, Grunt#3 at 8, and Grunt#1 at 3.

No one has an attack during second 14.

Then at second 13 the Juicer goes again. Initiative on this count does not matter as there is no competition. Juicer attacks Grunt#2, and Grunt#2 attempts to dodge (wasting an action).

Then on second 12 the Head-Hunter goes again on ini-10, then Grunt#3 on ini-8.

Then on second 11 Grunt#2 is skipped because he dodged, allowing the Juicer to go at ini-20, then Grunt#1 on ini-3.

No one has any actions during second 10.

Second 9 Has the Juicer on ini-20, the Head-Hunter on ini-10, then Grunt#3 on ini-8.

No one has any actions during second 8.

Second 7 has Grunt#2 on ini-21, the Juicer on ini-20, then Grunt#1 on ini-3.

Second 6 Has Grunt#3 artificially increasing his initiative by 3 points, putting him at ini-11 because he used his quickdraw WP to beat the Head-Hunter, who is at ini-10 this round.

Second 5 has the Juicer as the sole attacker, so initiative does not come into play.

Second three has Grunt#2 on ini-21, the Juicer on ini-20, Grunt#3 on ini-11 (thanks to quickdraw), the Head-Hunter on ini-10, and then Grunt#1 on ini-3.

Second 2 has no one with actions.

Second 1 has no one with actions.


This also allows for a limited delay action sequence. The Juicer could delay his action on second 5 to happen on second 3, forcing his action on second 3 to be delayed to second 2 or 1. This prevents players from going a dozen times in a single second.

Once a round is over, you re-roll your initiatives, but you will still go during the same seconds count; this only changes if you increase or decrease the number of attacks you perform in a round (like with sharp-shooting, or if you had a combat computer implant, and later lost it).

[Tinker Dragoon]

This message has been moved to the GM's Forum, where the topic is more applicable and appropriate. If you have a problem with how this post was handled please direct all inquires to deific.nmi@gmail.com, including the url to the post in question.

[bigbobsr6000]

I have a sample of the table below that I use. The table actually goes to Initiative of 50 and #Attacks to 14. Any greater than that I just interpolate using this chart. I have them in protective sleeves available to each player. EX: If Init of 18 and 3 attacks; go down left column to 18 read across under 3 #Attks column. That character goes on 18, 12, and 6. I start counting down from the highest Init rolled, when player hears their # to go on in that round, they tell me and state their action. In case of ties, highest PP goes first and/or roll for who goes first. If character in above example uses two actions when he goes on 18, he uses up 18 and 12. Doesn't get to go again until 6 is called. The only thing I may have to write down is my NPC's Init if to many to remember. Hope this helps.

INT/#Attks 1.......... 2............. 3............ 4
1.............. 1.......... 2-1......... 3-1......... 4-1
2.............. 2.......... 2-1......... 3-1......... 4-1
3.............. 3.......... 3,1......... 3-1......... 4-1
4.............. 4.......... 4,2......... 4-2......... 4-1
5.............. 5.......... 5,3......... 5,3,1....... 5-2
6.............. 6.......... 6,3......... 6,4,2....... 6,4,2,1
7.............. 7.......... 7,3......... 7,3,1....... 7,5,3,1
8.............. 8.......... 8,4......... 8,6,4....... 8,6,4,2
9.............. 9.......... 9,5......... 9,6,3....... 9,7,5,3
10............ 10........ 10,5....... 10,7,4.... 10,8,6,4
11............ 11........ 11,6....... 11,8,4.... 11,8,5,2
12............ 12........ 12,6....... 12,8,4.... 12,9,6,3
13............ 13........ 13,7....... 13,9,4.... 13,10,7,4
14............ 14........ 14,7....... 14,10,5.. 14,9,4,1
15............ 15........ 15,8....... 15,10,5.. 15,12,9,6
16............ 16........ 16,8....... 16,11,6.. 16,12,8,4
17............ 17........ 17,9....... 17,11,5.. 17,13,9,5
18............ 18........ 18,9....... 18,12,6.. 18,14,10,6
19............ 19........ 19,10..... 19,13,7.. 19,14,9,4
20............ 20........ 20,10..... 20,13,6.. 20,15,10,5

[Killer Cyborg]

Throw a grenade and it goes off a few seconds after your attack, actually makes it possible for fast characters (i.e. characters with lots of attacks) to throw grenades back at people (tougher than it sounds, but possible).

Granted, technology might change things (or have already changed things), but grenade fuses are not an exact science. The "three seconds before exploding" rule is just an approximation; it could go off a bit late or early.
If you really need the realism and precision of timing every second, I'd give grenades a time of 1d4+1 seconds.

[bigbobsr6000]

The standard handgrenade has a 3-5 second delay once the "spoon" flies off. But, from personal experience, a handgrenade can go off earlier or later. I believe a 1d6 seconds is better for game time to go off. That's what I use. I agree with KC about the instability of the standard handgrenade fuse. The so called "cook-off" of the grenade is very dangerous to do. Its not like in video games or the movies. It can go off before you throw it or as you just release it. Usually near the thrower's head. If you take into account a 2 second time for the grenade to get to target and 1-2 second for target to get it his hand on it and another second to throw back, that's 4-5 seconds right there. Even if you use 1 second to target that's still 3-4 seconds. Well within the time for it to go off. And if the thrower allows even a 1-2 second cook-off.....Need I say more?

[Dog_O_War]

The standard handgrenade has a 3-5 second delay once the "spoon" flies off. But, from personal experience, a handgrenade can go off earlier or later. I believe a 1d6 seconds is better for game time to go off. That's what I use. I agree with KC about the instability of the standard handgrenade fuse. The so called "cook-off" of the grenade is very dangerous to do. Its not like in video games or the movies. It can go off before you throw it or as you just release it. Usually near the thrower's head. If you take into account a 2 second time for the grenade to get to target and 1-2 second for target to get it his hand on it and another second to throw back, that's 4-5 seconds right there. Even if you use 1 second to target that's still 3-4 seconds. Well within the time for it to go off. And if the thrower allows even a 1-2 second cook-off.....Need I say more?

That's a perfect example of how tough it is, and why only someone as quick as a juicer should succeed at it. I wouldn't worry too much about the randomness of the timer though; after all this is a game of the 22rd century. I'd assume grenades have a small seconds timer (set from 1-10) that provides an acurate charge to detonate said explosive. I was using 4 seconds as a standard though, as this allows enough time for the grenade to travel to the target and then explode.

[bigbobsr6000]

I use timer grenades in my sci fi campaigns. The thrower can set it 1-10 seconds or some 1-20 secs. In modern and past RPG's I use the "ole pineapple" WWII handgrenade. There were and are handgrenades that go off on impact. There is no fuse or timer. There designed with a heavier end as to fall on striker/plunger for immediate explosion. Problem with those is, if land on soft or muddy ground, may not go off. Then jostled or moved later could go off. Best used in urban setting with lots of hard surfaces to hit on. Can be thrown hard enough to impact on wall and explode. Still, if they scittle across the ground, may not go off.

[Dog_O_War]

Only a month later, and I begin to post those other house-rules I was talking about. Yay.

Ranged combat.

Ranged combat in Rifts has always been somewhat of a mystery for me; to many contradictory lines and verses, some stating that a natural 1-4 is always a miss, yet others say that an 8 with bonuses is a hit.

Yeah, that and why the game states that specifically energy weapons such as lasers do not have a kick or otherwise jostling motion in them, yet the "pulse" variants cannot be used to make aimed shots with ("Okay, setting to pulse-fire and moving the gun to hip level - cause that's how it's done")

Also, lasers (which travel at the speed of light) offer the same penalty to dodge as railguns (which travel at the speed of sound). Yeah, that makes sense - especially since the penalty is at a maximum of 50ft, when most people have a hard time discerning whether a guy will pull the trigger of his weapon or put the safety on at that range.

So what did I do? I billowed the sheets to get the wrinkles out. And I added some amendments to other things as well (like cover and moving targets).

We'll start off with the to-hit.
Only a 1 fails automatically. Why? Because I hate to be told that my expert sniper with his +14 bonus to strike (ranged) is still missing as often as everyone else.

You need an 8 with bonuses to hit a stationary target. I liked the "8 with bonuses" rule, so I kept that.

You need a 12 to hit a moving target, +1 for every 40mph faster than you are moving in relation. This is for fast characters; they should be hard to hit, and if they're superhuman and have a power that gives them some crazy dodge bonus as well, then sure - why not. This caps at +10 (or 400mph+ faster than you are moving). Why +10 (or 22)? this puts it so that unskilled gunmen have only luck to win with, while skilled ones don't get put-off by a stupid-fast jet.

You take a -2 penalty for shooting on the move, and cannot make aimed shots. Also, if the terrain is off-road, the penalty increases to -4, or if exceptionally rough (or the driver is drunk or dodging crap) you suffer a -6. Why? you're getting tossed about while holding your gun and firing - aiming is basically by eye-sight (and if any of you army guys have used a weapon from the window or turret of a humvee, you'll know what I'm talking about).
All that said, you can compensate for most of this. Hover vehicles never suffer (well, almost never - windstorms and such could rock the boat abit) rough terrain penalties for firing. Vehicles with exceptional suspension, or that are weighty enough that a bump here and there barely moves the beast do not suffer the first penalties for rough terrain.
Additionally, vehicles with the proper equipment - like a hydrolic gun cushion (similar to what cameramen today use to steady their cameras) can fire aimed shots. Locking joints for cyborgs can be used for this as well, but they suffer double the rough terrain penalties.


Now the next portion; shot types.
Standard, "one shot per attack" firing. This type of shooting accepts your WP bonus to strike, as well as certain mechanical enhancers, such as laser-targetting, and H.U.D. style crosshairs. Scopes are used in this fashion to strike at a distant target. You also get weapon bonuses based on the function of the bonus. Many old books describe the bonuses as +X aimed, but since the rules changed abit, this would make many weapons just awful to use. Weapons that offer the bonus based on balance, design, weight, and manufacturing offer the "+X to strike" on these standard attacks.


Aimed, "two actions to shoot" firing. This type of attack simply modifies existing attacks. The aimed action can be used for both "standard" shots and "burst" attacks, and provides a +2 bonus to strike. It also enables additional bonuses, such as that for the Espionage skill: Sniper, which is appiled to single-shot fired rifles. Sharp-shooting also provides a bonus, but will be described at another time.


Burst, "multiple rounds from the same gun, using one action to shoot" firing (holy run-on sentences, Batman!). This is as I just described; multiple shots from the same weapon. Many guns describe their burst-fire damage, as well as rounds fired. This is important. Bursts are harder to dodge, and if the attacker knows what he's doing, can make it easier to hit as well. Bursting is done at half your listed "standard" bonus to strike (round down).

In addition, high RoF weapons can be used in alternate modes of firing. Weapons that deliver 10 or more rounds per burst give a +1 bonus to strike per increment of ten (+2 for 20 rounds, +3 for 30, etc...). Weapons that offer less than this give no additional bonus.

Alternatively you can hose an area causing half the listed damage for the burst bonus to strike x2 (eg: 10 rounds +2, 20 rounds +4, etc...); this can also get multiple targets if they are close enough (within touching distance).

Then there are area bursts: these automatically hit (roll a d20 anyways to see if there is a gun-jam (a roll of 1) or something that would prevent the shot from working). The area (and damage) is dependent on the number of rounds fired. For this example, we'll use a non-descript railgun that does 1d4 damage per single round. Bursting on an area with ten rounds covers 10 square feet and does 1d4 damage to anything in that area. With a 20 round burst, the area can be expanded to 20 square feet, and do 1d4 damage, or the same 10 foot area can offer 2d4 damage. At 30 rounds, the area can be 30 feet doing 1d4, 15ft at 2d4, or 10ft at 3d4 damage.

No chance to dodge is offered, but note the number rolled on the attack earlier (don't count the burst-fire bonus to hit); if there is sufficient cover available, then a character might just have been missed.


Called, "pick a spot at two actions" shooting. This is an attack modifier that can be used with both the standard shot and the burst-fire shot, but with burst-fire there are special rules that need be applied. As normal, this can be combined with an aimed shot for three actions +aimed bonuses.

For bursts that a person calls, it goes as follows...
Roll a d100 (percentile) and add your bonus to strike.
(below 01)* ~ you missed!
01 - 10~ oddly, you completely miss the target, instead striking the area around him. Others take single shot damage in a 10ft area (or roll to hit if the gun does less than 10 shots, at a maximum of one hit per shot).
11 - 17~ only one shot hits target in the main body doing single-shot damage.
18 - 26~ only one shot hits target in the main body doing single shot damage, while the rest hit around the target in a 10ft area doing single-shot damage.
27 - 33~ only one shot hits target in selected area doing single-shot damage.
34 - 42~ only one shot hits target in selected area doing single-shot damage, while the remaining shots hit a 10ft area around the target doing single-shot damage.
43 - 51~ one shot hits selected area, and one shot hits main body doing single-shot damage to each.
52 - 59~ half shots hit target in the main body doing half damage.
60 - 67~ half shots hit target in the main body doing half damage, while the remaining shots hit a 10ft area around the target doing single-shot damage.
68 - 76~ one shot hits selected area doing single-shot damage, while the rest hit the main body doing half damage.
77 - 86~ half shots hit selected area, doing half damage.
87 - 93~ half shots hit selected area, doing half damage, while the remaining shots hit a 10ft area around the target doing single-shot damage.
94 - 100~ half shots hit selected area, half hit the main body doing half damage to each.
(101+)** ~ shots hit intended area and do full normal damage.

* you can get a negative if you have substancial penalties to hit.
** you can get higher than 100 if you have enough bonuses.

Don't be intimidated by the above chart; it is simple to figure out and modify. Most of the chart is about a 7-9% per category, with two at 10%.


Cover is very important - it keeps you alive! There are two types of cover; hard and soft. Hard cover is strong enough against the attack type that the damage in question won't just go right through; if it does, then it is soft cover.

Hard cover is offered in a percentage (I like to just quarter it, offering that we don't need to get into the heavy fractions). 25% cover means you need a 10 to hit, 50% cover requires a 12 to hit, and 75% cover means you need a 14 to hit. 100% cover means the target is untouchable. If you fail by 1 but still hit above 8, you strike the cover instead.

Special attacks such as plasma missiles, flamethrowers, and massive explosions still hit even if you strike the cover, but the cover offers a bonus to roll with the attack; +1 for 25%, +2 for 50%, and +3 for 75%.

Soft cover means that it is simply hard to see; you need a 9 to hit a target with 25% cover, 11 to hit 50% cover, and 13 to hit 75% cover. Attacks that miss by 1 but still hit 8 are considered misses; you might be wondering why soft cover is seemingly as good as hard cover; it isn't. Thermal scopes and such, or attacks that do not require sight are not effected by soft cover at all.

Special attacks such as plasma missiles, flamethowers, and massive explosions still hit, and soft cover provides no protection, except as follows; missiles striking soft cover may explode on the cover itself, possibly putting you out of the effected area. This is only for stuff like SDC metals and other hard materials where the basic solidity would protect against missile penetration (obviously a bunker-buster will sail right through, but a mini-missile will most likely explode on the cover).


Range of targets and dodge penalties.
When dodging firearms, you retain your full bonuses to dodge, accepting a penalty as per the weapons' type.
Weapons in the games I run offer the following penalties to dodge...
Lasers/ion weapons: -12 to dodge at full range.
Particle and plasma weapons: -10 to dodge at full range.
Railguns and conventional firearms, as well as dummy-fired missiles: -8 to dodge at half range, -6 to dodge from half to full range.

Now it may seem that it's easy to dodge conventional gunfire at ranges beyond half! Wrong. you have to make your opponent's roll to strike on top of suffering the penalty, AND you have to be aware of the attack. Last I checked human eyes sucked at determining incoming gunfire at ranges of 150+ feet. This gives certain types of characters an advantage - like Juicers (I'm not as pro-Juicer as I have made myself out to be here).

Additionally dodging burst-fire is extremely difficult, which means that those railguns and coventional machineguns and full-auto rifles and pistols are getting double duty here. Not only does burst-fire allow bonuses to strike, but for every increment of 10 rounds (3-10, 11-20, 21-30, etc...) you suffer an additional -2 to dodge! BUT, this special penalty is called the "threshhold".

This is a concept I had been mulling over for quite some time. Threshhold works as follows; a SAMAS bursts on a target, getting a total of 12 to hit with his railgun within half range (I think that's 20 rounds; just assume it is) and you want to dodge that. You'll need to make 12 with a -8 penalty (basically a 20), but in addition to that, there is an additional -4 penalty to dodge - so now you need to make (and effective) 24!. Here's where the threshhold comes into play. If you made 20 to 23, you would be in the threshhold of the burst attack, meaning that you will only suffer half damage. In addition, you can roll with the attack as well, ruducing it to a possible 1/4 damage. It is effectively like getting winged.



I'm going off of memory here as I don't have my notes with me at the moment, but happen to have the time to write this all down. It is reasonably accurate to what I wrote down in my notes, so take it as is. I may ammend it later though.

Please, questions, critiques, and comments would be very appreciated!

[Dog_O_War]

Doh, forgot missile rules.

Most of the time you'll be using mini-missiles, rarely short, medium, or long-range missiles.

Here are the rules as follows.

Mini-missiles have two settings; seeking, and dummy-fire.

Dummy-fire offers that the guidance is not used; only your WP bonuses, and is treated as a "standard" shot. You can aimed and called shot the missiles this way at an increased RoF.

Seeking fire on the other hand is far different. Most mini-missiles have a basic guidance system that is at +3 to strike, but you do not add any of your own WP, aimed, or sharp-shooting, or from other mechanical additions (such as laser-targetting), and you cannot make called shots. You may add +1 to strike in this manner if you are a weapons engineer though. You may be asking, "how is this beneficial?" Here's how. Your missile strikes any target you point at as if it were stationary! You only need to make an 8 to hit, and if your target is ground-based you will hit the area he is in if you miss but do not roll a 1. If your target is arial, then you get a second chance to connect the next round! (unless you rolled a 1, then it sails off into the wild blue yonder).

You can make aimed shots with seeking missiles, dependant on the launcher-type (disposables are fire and forget always), but are done as follows; add your bonuses to the weapons' roll to hit in addition to the guidance system, but this requires the entire round (minimum of 4 actions, maximum of 6) as you sit there and "paint" the target.


Generally missiles can be intercepted though if the ranges are long enough, of the defender is prepared; high RoF (20+ rounds per burst), flak, and explosive munitions can be used to destroy incoming missiles. These are considered moving targets, and small (-4 to hit for mini-missiles). They do not get a speed bonus though because they are, "Coming right for you!" Additionally you may not even get a chance depending on if you are aware of the attack, or how close the attack is. If the attack is under 1/2 a mile, you must have been laying flak or watching the attacker, waiting to intercept in order to get a chance. If over this, prepared defenders can take two chances (attacks and RoF permitting), or one chance with an aimed shot. Unprepared defenders get one chance, and cannot perform an aimed shot. All these use up attacks/actions to perform.

That is how I do missile-fire.

[Dog_O_War]

Heh, forgot to post the range penalties.....

Ranges and penalties. There are two things to consider here; how far a person can actually see, and how far the weapon can actually shoot. many people see laser-weaponry as pin-point accurate weapons that should almost never miss. But most of you know that the further the distance travelled, the more deviation the shot has.
All ranges are subject to the weapons' maximum range; note that railguns and coventional firearms can be used at a distance of double the range listed, but the shot is almost completely inaccurate.
Lasers~ close (25% range) no penalty; medium (26-50% range) no penalty; long (51-75% range) -1; maximum (76-100% range) -1.
Particle beams~ close (25%) --; medium (26-50%) --; long (51-75%) -2; maximum (76-100%) -2
Ion & plasma weapons~ short --; medium -1; long -2; maximum -3
Railguns and conventional firearms~ short --; medium -2; long -4; maximum -6

Also, we have limited sight as "mere mortals". Without visual enhancers, there is almost no chance we can hit targets at a long distance. As such, we suffer the following penalties, as subjective for our race (and GM).
Short visual range is about 200ft on a flat surface; a field, street, building, etc... ~ you suffer no penalties for shooting (this distance may be increased by up to double depending on your height advantage; top of a hill or building for instance.)
Long visual range is anything beyond this, generally to a maximum of a mile for humans ~ you suffer a -4 to attack rolls for shooting.

The human sight problem is remedied by electronics; cyber-eyes, scopes, and other visual enhancers get rid of many problems. Infact when using visual enhancers you may eliminate the human sight problem completely, as well as reduce the range penalties for your weapons by half (rounding down).

[Dog_O_War]

Don't mean to bump my own thread so much, but There are things I keep forgetting to add.

All of this might seem complicated, but once you and your players run through a couple of combats using these rules of fire, it will become almost second nature; GM gives out scenario, listing the opponents' target number to hit, plus any penalties that may be applied to shooting him. Players choose targets and make attack rolls, and site shot-types - calculating their own bonuses and penalties. Rinse and repeat.

I've yet to work out a comprehensive vehicular combat system, but this is my next task; it will include everything from basic manuevers like dodging, 180's, 360's, using mounted weaponry, side-swipes, rear-enders, fish-tail hits, and head-on collisions.


Again, critiques, comments, and questions are much appreciated!

[bigbobsr6000]

I don't have any problem with the Palladium system as is. I don't burn up paper keeping track either.

Whatever works for you and your group is great. Game On

[lostsoul336]

Ok kinda off subject a little but i have a question about attack/actions during combat. What constitutes an action being taken that takes away from the amount of attacks you have. i.e. reloading your weapon i would say takes an attack/action. but what about moving, turning, jumping...etc. is there anything in the rules that defines this? what do you guys do?

[bigbobsr6000]

Ok kinda off subject a little but i have a question about attack/actions during combat. What constitutes an action being taken that takes away from the amount of attacks you have. i.e. reloading your weapon i would say takes an attack/action. but what about moving, turning, jumping...etc. is there anything in the rules that defines this? what do you guys do?

In general any move takes an action. But, you can shoot while moveing (with to hit penalties) as 1 action. Jumping is an action, But you can attempt to shoot while in the act of jumping with to hit penalities. Confused? It basically boils down to common sense and what the GM counts as a single action/attack.

EX: While running to jump the ravine, I reload my weapon (1 action). As I jump, I spin around and fire my weapon (1 attack). I land on the other side, sliding on my back and fire my weapon (1 attack). I stand up (1 action) and run (1 action).

Each one of those "dual" actions/attacks would have penalties applied. The last 2 would not as they are "single" actions.

This is how I do it so guys & gals can do those movie stunts in game.

Hope this helps.

[Shorty Lickens]

I just realized I've been reading this thread for a while and havent contributed yet.

Some of my rules to make the game more playable are based on balancing the economy and weapons capability.

1. Repair and recharge/replenishment costs are about 0.1 to 0.25 times the listed prices in RUE and Revised SB1.

2. Most grenades and misc. explosives are .25 to .5 times the listed price. E-clips are usually half price.

3. Many PA's and bots are half price, some vehicles too.

(those price reductions work both ways, when the PC's want to sell loot they take a hit, but it helps balance things out with paychecks and rewards)

4. All medium missiles are available as Smart. Short Armor Piercing is too, but doesnt fly around nearly as long.
Smart always costs +20%.

5. That cute little L-20 rifle only has 30 shots per clip. No one has ever given me a convincing reason why its so much more efficient than EVERYTHING in the Rifts Megaverse. I can understand how some things might be slightly more energy efficient, but the L-20 just doesnt make good sense in the game world.

[Dog_O_War]

I just realized I've been reading this thread for a while and havent contributed yet.

Some of my rules to make the game more playable are based on balancing the economy and weapons capability.

1. Repair and recharge/replenishment costs are about 0.1 to 0.25 times the listed prices in RUE and Revised SB1.

2. Most grenades and misc. explosives are .25 to .5 times the listed price. E-clips are usually half price.

3. Many PA's and bots are half price, some vehicles too.

(those price reductions work both ways, when the PC's want to sell loot they take a hit, but it helps balance things out with paychecks and rewards)

4. All medium missiles are available as Smart. Short Armor Piercing is too, but doesnt fly around nearly as long.
Smart always costs +20%.

5. That cute little L-20 rifle only has 30 shots per clip. No one has ever given me a convincing reason why its so much more efficient than EVERYTHING in the Rifts Megaverse. I can understand how some things might be slightly more energy efficient, but the L-20 just doesnt make good sense in the game world.

Ah, so you too have discovered the shady, "expendatures never equal the rewards" problem with mega-damage combat. I think I came to fully realize it when I was reading New West ages ago, and was looking at the "standard" bounty fees. I saw them and was thinking, "man, that wouldn't even cover the cost of ammo used".

I thought about changing that as well, but then I realized how truely perfect the current monetary costs of stuff is for the type of game I run.

Two examples, both involving my buddy Retired Juicer;
First~ he was playing a sneaky-type Psi-Bleeder(?) and had some decent armour (I think it was the Brannegan out of New West), and a hovercycle. Unfortunately he got caught abushed at about 2000ft by an inferior foe in a superior position. Round after round this guy (who had piecemeal partial armour that only covered the main body, as well as a laser rifle that did 3d6) was pounding away at RJ, who had taken some cover behind a large rock. He couldn't see the shooter because detection is never automatic (well, laser-fire at night gives a substancial bonus, but...) as this was mid-day in the hot desert, and he had the sun in his eyes. Had he been able to see his foe right from the start, he would've got him, but as he had to bug out as the main body of his armour was practically depleted from several shots.

Second~ RJ was playing some wolfen-like D-Bee (it regenerated and was minor MD), Dragon Juicer (probably the most "powerful" thing I've ever let anyone play). He realized how expensive it was to get his armour constantly repaired, so what he did was some resource management; he'd only wear the armour for heavy combat situations, as his natural body could take alot of punishment, and at the rate he was going, he'd never have any money and soon have no armour either.

So all these things considered, I also "weakened" the enemy - they often wore regular piecemeal armour (road-warrior style!) that covered the main body only (well, S.D.C. opponents had a 50/50 ratio of wearing fully enclosed and open armour). They also tended to use "sub-par" weapons, so that if my players were smart or skilled they could collect the stuff and trade it in for a minor profit (after ammo and repairs were taken care of), and not feel that they were getting either ripped off, or monty-hauled.

I think one encounter netted them with 81,000cr worth of trade-in, which amounted to 4-5000cr each after repairs and ammo (for three people, and RJ took off his armour to save on costs). And that was a good haul. With that, they paid for the dailies (food, sleeping, drinks, info) and would go to their next job.
This also limited the group from reckless use of resources, such as the mini-missile launcher one of the others had (at 3k per missile, it adds up quick). They'd seek out alternate stuff, and the plan was to get a nuclear power source to refill their own e-clips.

With this system I could reward them monetarily and it would feel like a reward, without being a huge wallet-padder. It also kept the game just a little bit gritty without me having to restrict their choices of equipment (at all!). Powered armour PCs often askew these costs, but the matter is resolved easily enough; more people will surrender against an obviously superior opponent; people have always valued their lives above everything, so 20 hobos with peicemeal armour and crap knock-off rifles still won't fight a dude in a suit of flying titan powered armour - air superiority, as well as those missiles is often enough to get weaker foes to surrender; one missile could end their life (that and not all groups of roving bandits have brilliant tactical leaders telling them waht to do to win!).

So with the cost of things; it is something I keep as is - this is one of the few rules the game has that really works for me.

[Shorty Lickens]

I noticed the ridiculous prices when I started Rifts back in the 7th grade.
My dad had several .22's and gave me one of them.

I will tell you right now that in the world of bullets, 1 magazine does not cost 1/3 of the rifle.
A magazine often costs between 1 and 5% of the weapons price.

Same with ammo. The recharge price of E-clips was just not realistic. Grenades and missiles are probably dead on, but it doesnt make sense you would use up an expensive missile when it only does 2-5 times as much damage as one of your rifles.
For the cost it should do about 100 times as much damage, otherwise its an attrition war you just cant win.

Armor was the same way. It doesnt make sense you can get darn near killed in every battle with regular body armor and end up throwing away your life savings on repairing it or getting a new suit.

[Dog_O_War]

I noticed the ridiculous prices when I started Rifts back in the 7th grade.
My dad had several .22's and gave me one of them.

I will tell you right now that in the world of bullets, 1 magazine does not cost 1/3 of the rifle.
A magazine often costs between 1 and 5% of the weapons price.

Same with ammo. The recharge price of E-clips was just not realistic. Grenades and missiles are probably dead on, but it doesnt make sense you would use up an expensive missile when it only does 2-5 times as much damage as one of your rifles.
For the cost it should do about 100 times as much damage, otherwise its an attrition war you just cant win.

Armor was the same way. It doesnt make sense you can get darn near killed in every battle with regular body armor and end up throwing away your life savings on repairing it or getting a new suit.

Heh, preaching to the chior here.
You're right though, it might seem expensive, but look at other comparable weapons; those Naruni cartridge guns have a significantly lower ammo cost than guns that run on e-clips. Why? E-clips are universal in use; they can be used to power your radio (if you made a converter for it). That alone makes the technology very valueble, because we all know radios don't run on bullets.

As for armour and missiles, well - I'll start with armour.

Armour in Rifts is very curious stuff - normal armour of today can take one, maybe two hits for the weapons it's meant to stop. Look at an abrams battletank for instance; some of the most advanced armour in the world, and it still cannot take a direct hit from its own cannon (that's a direct hit with the assumption the angles of the armour don't come into play).
Or a modern flak jacket; while it can stop a small calibre pistol round from penetration (but still hurts like hell), a rifle round (such as a 7.62 - something your boys in Iraq gotta face every day) has a higher chance of knocking out or just sailing right through the kevlar weave (or whatever it's made out of now).

It Rifts though, the comparible weapon types basically have very little effect. I can only theorize the reason; keeping players alive so there isn't a constant revolving door effect. But the truth of the matter is that a missile (on average) will kill a player with a direct hit. the average plasma missile does 30 MD to a 15ft area; most gloves don't have that much MD which means the armour is melted and kills the person inside. The average AP missile does 20 MD to a 3ft area, but that damage is doubled on a direct hit, becoming 40, and again having the same basic effect as a plasma missile.

Against other hard targets, the AP missile is out-damaging the plasma missile, offering a range of 20-80 MD, versus the plasma's 10-60 MD. Really, it's the area effected that makes these missiles deadly, but as compared to powered armour and APC's and such, they seemingly do very little damage.

So ammo costs in Rifts are an easy way of preventing player from "going nova" all the time. Why make those single, precise shots with a gun that gets 50 shots a clip versus a gun that gets 8 shots per clip but is doing 10 times the damage? Remember, there are guns that do missile damage using an e-clip; offer the e-clip at a cheaper price and all of a sudden you have to play gun nazi; restricting stuff because house rules have made something more advantageous a buy than something else - the C-29 and the Wilks' pulse cannon are two prime examples. So is the JA-12 and most of the Naruni stuff that runs on e-clips.

[Shorty Lickens]

Also, along the lines of power transfer and energy efficiency:
Most of the weapons from south america are too overpowered. Again, with no logical reason as to why they should dish out so much damage and be able to get X number of shots per e-clip.

The ATL 7 is one of them. I dont mind using a whole clip up to do that one massive shot, but it seems to me that the gun should have to take a little while pulling all that energy from the clip and storing it in a capacitor first.
So I say in addition to the reload time, it also needs 5 seconds (one third of a round and however many actions that is for the user) to charge up and drain the clip.

As for the rest of the stuff, I cut back on the MD considerably. I might let them do full damage if the PC's ever decide to do an exclusive South American Campaign, but goodies they bring up or find in exotic markets will be downgraded a bit.

Also, I cant recall which book it was but they had a really nice mini tank with 200 MDC and some damn good weapons for only 90,000 credits. Am not sure if that was a typo or just poor balancing.
I would make it cost a lot more and/or cut back on the weapon power. I understand a big laser cannon can do 1d6x10 MD, but not if its running off batteries or gasoline. Only vehicles with fission, fusion or anti-matter plants can do that sort of thing.

EDIT:
Another thing I had to do to make the game more playable was add several protection spells for Mages and make a set of rules for using them.

Boiled Down: A magic user can have one each of a skin-tight, ovoid (egg shaped) and spherical spell protecting him at any given time.
I also made several spells of each type, with SDC equivalents costing about 1/10 the PPE.
Only skin-tight armor like a pilots suit or plain clothes can be effective with a body hugging spell. Ovoid spells can be used over regular EBA. Spherical spells will function with exoskeletons and heavy EBA and perhaps some really small Power Armor, like the terrain hopper (perhaps if the mage didnt use a helmet or gloves).

Havent figured out how to make those spells work with techno force fields, like the Naruni brand.
Suspect I will issue a ruling that they cant. But since I havent yet allowed the group to find or purchase any force fields, it wont be a problem right now.

[Dog_O_War]

I noticed the ridiculous prices when I started Rifts back in the 7th grade.

I think the prices carry over from genre to genre in Palladium, like the rules.

The prices for consumables has always been silly, at least for PFRPG 2E and Rifts, and N&S gets an honorable mention.

I remember players being thankful when an attack missed their armor and hit them. They had more SDC and it came back without cost. They were actually happy when I introduced armor penetration rules so armor would only take so much damage before the rest was applied to the person. At least the armor would last more than one fight and sometimes you could salvage something useful from the enemy.

Rifts is the same way. I remember looking at those bounty rewards and laughing out loud thinking who would bother? Unless you treated them like coupons, 200 credits off your next purchase! I had also cut the prices for some things, like e-clip recharges and armor repair. I thought MDC was so expensive because it was rare and hard to make, yet the book seems to portray the world as the exact opposite, MDC around every corner. If it is that common, it should be cheaper, IMHO.

My thoughts mirrored yours 8 months ago.

Then I began to think of the game in a different manner; has the cost of steel/SDC materials gone up? No. Why is this super material super-expensive then? Because it's Super! A 155mm APDS round fired from a tank would explode a normal human. Those rounds cost thousands (as per today's prices). Against MDC material though they are barely scratching the surface (I think they do 1d4 MD). Sure, the force of the weapon might knock you off your feet, but the resiliency of the material is incredible! It should cost thousands of credits - hell, if we had MDC metal today it would be worth millions of dollars for the equivalent. Like 10 million for every 1000 creds you spend; seems like a good price to me as we are still paying 1000 creds for an SDC motorbike (as apposed to 5,000 dollars in today's market).

Next I began to think about what collecting a bounty really entailed; You get to loot the other guy afterwards, and most people in the New West aren't wearing climate-controlled EBA, which means they're wearing partial armour - this means that if you fire 10 shots at a guy, and he lands 3-5 against you (costing you thousands, while you shoot thousands of creds away), but you were aiming for an exposed part, you'll get his gun, his armour, and his stuff - plus the fee.

The only ones that are worth thousands are the really tough hombres - 'borgs, Juicers, supernatural creatures, etc... And even then some of those creatures are easily beaten with the proper gear. This thought-train you're on is a "all equipment must be new" type. It's like you're seeing things as worthless unless they automatically come in the form of credits. I know, because I used to think the same way.

[zor_prime1]

For initiative and combat, this is what my group has been using for over 20 years. It's called the "Splice Attack Rule" It's flexable and easy to remember. It works for any situation and doesn't modify any of Palladiums combat rules. It's described on this page.

http://www.geocities.com/zor_prime1/insert.htm

Tokens can enhance this. Use one token per attack and toss them into the center of the table when you use yours.

[Dog_O_War]

I noticed the ridiculous prices when I started Rifts back in the 7th grade.
My dad had several .22's and gave me one of them.

I will tell you right now that in the world of bullets, 1 magazine does not cost 1/3 of the rifle.
A magazine often costs between 1 and 5% of the weapons price.

Same with ammo. The recharge price of E-clips was just not realistic. Grenades and missiles are probably dead on, but it doesnt make sense you would use up an expensive missile when it only does 2-5 times as much damage as one of your rifles.
For the cost it should do about 100 times as much damage, otherwise its an attrition war you just cant win.

Armor was the same way. It doesnt make sense you can get darn near killed in every battle with regular body armor and end up throwing away your life savings on repairing it or getting a new suit.

Heh, preaching to the chior here.
You're right though, it might seem expensive, but look at other comparable weapons; those Naruni cartridge guns have a significantly lower ammo cost than guns that run on e-clips. Why? E-clips are universal in use; they can be used to power your radio (if you made a converter for it). That alone makes the technology very valueble, because we all know radios don't run on bullets.

As for armour and missiles, well - I'll start with armour.

Armour in Rifts is very curious stuff - normal armour of today can take one, maybe two hits for the weapons it's meant to stop. Look at an abrams battletank for instance; some of the most advanced armour in the world, and it still cannot take a direct hit from its own cannon (that's a direct hit with the assumption the angles of the armour don't come into play).
Or a modern flak jacket; while it can stop a small calibre pistol round from penetration (but still hurts like hell), a rifle round (such as a 7.62 - something your boys in Iraq gotta face every day) has a higher chance of knocking out or just sailing right through the kevlar weave (or whatever it's made out of now).

E-clips aren't the same as magazines, they are far more complex and can be considered part of the weapon that is detachable. They should be very expensive as high capacity batteries are difficult to manufacture. The screw-up on the part of Palladium was to make the recharge cost so high compared to the cost of the weapon.

Hardly. You're talking about recharging an item the size of a... well, the size of a gun clip that could power your entire household for a year. How much does that cost? Now shoot that away in 20 minutes of firing and tell me that it should be cheaper. Then find a power source that can efficiently recharge it with minimal energy drained (nuclear), and tell me that the recharging source is cheap as well.
By all accounts it should be expensive.

Your understanding of body armor is not consistent with reality at any point in time. The armor you speak of is the sort that is used in law enforcement.

Which is where you have made the mistake of assumption. I stated kevlar armour, yet soldiers wear plated armour. I mentioned rifle rounds, and gave a comparison of a common rifle round (7.62), with a comment about how American soldiers in Iraq have to face this every day. I never said American soldiers were wearing an ineffective armour in Iraq, I offered that a modern kevlar flakjacket (though this is where confusion may have arisen; This is term I use sounds better than "kevlar vest" or "bullet-proof vest") is only barely effective against the weapons it is meant to protect against.